Mr. Laboucherepresented a Petition from the Commons of Lower Canada, in Provincial Parliament assembled, praying for the repeal of the Act, 6th George 4th, providing for the extension of feudal and seigniorial rights and bur then son land in the said province. As the House had already taken measures to obviate the evils which had resulted from that Act, he only presented this petition to call the attention of the House to a most striking instance of the mischiefs which might be inflicted on a colony by misinformed and hasty legislation. The evils resulting from the Act had been repaired so far as the power of the House extended, but property to a large extent had been lost and sacrificed by the consequences resulting from that Act.
§ Petition to be printed.
Mr. Laboucherehad to present another Petition from the House of Assembly of Lower Canada, which was agreed to unanimously, and comprised a long list of grievances, from which they prayed redress from the House of Commons. He would not fatigue the House by going through these grievances at large, which it was not likely many hon. Gentlemen would comprehend or pay attention to; but from this very circumstance he derived the strong argument, and which also was the prayer of the petition, that it was most advisable to meet the evils effectually of which the petitioners complained, by enabling the colonies to manage their own concerns in their own way, so that the colonial 768 Legislators could redress the grievances of their constituents without being compelled to come to this country for the purpose. This would be going at once to the root of the evil, for it was plainly impossible the present state of affairs could long remain, as the House of Assembly of Canada, although unanimous on the subject of these grievances, did not possess the power to remedy them. The principal complaints contained in the petition, related to the Legislative Councils, which the petitioners affirm are composed in such a manner as to be wholly detached from the rest of the colony, being connected with it by no ties of property, of birth or affection. The petitioners also complained of the judicial system, but he was happy to say, this part of the complaint was in part remedied by disconnecting the Judges from political affairs. The petitioners also complained of the clergy preserves of land, and the alienation of lands belonging to the Jesuits College at Montreal. He adverted to these specific complaints to show how necessary it was that the colonies should manage their own affairs, and he entreated the House to consider whether the time had not arrived when the whole system of colonization ought to be thoroughly investigated, and the connection between them and the mother country established on a more liberal footing, while means were taken to improve the institutions of the colonies themselves. By some measures of this kind they might, perhaps, put an end to those feelings of irritation which had so long existed in the minds of the colonists. He firmly believed this could be done, and that the inhabitants of the Canadas, who now amounted to 1,000,000 souls, might enjoy as much happiness under the sway of the British monarchy as could be enjoyed by the citizens of any State of the world. But to attain this great end it was necessary that the institutions of the colonies should be adapted to the slate of society existing therein. There were no materials out of which to raise an aristocracy in the Canadas; there were no great and wealthy landed proprietors; the inhabitants were all of nearly equal property and perfectly of equal rights; from this foundation he and they considered that the British Constitution, as divided into three branches, was not applicable to their peculiar situation. He begged distinctly to declare, however, that he was firmly attached to that 769 Constitution as it existed here, but what he meant to say was, that there were certain communities in which the materials for the gradations of ranks on which its foundations rested were not to be met with, and he considered the Canadas in that situation. To prove that these sentiments were correct, he would state the fact, that in British North America, out of 1,000,000 inhabitants, there were 200,000 landed proprietors; a greater number in proportion to the population than existed in any other part of the world. The institutions of any country must be so regulated, if good government was to be the result, that they must meet the wants, and be applicable to the habits of the people living under them. The House must not, therefore, be scared by the phantom of democracy, when there were no materials to set up the substance of an aristocracy. If an attempt was made to create one, it could only end in an odious oligarchy. He had the high authority of Mr. Pitt for saying, that no materials for an aristocracy existed in the Canadas, and though a real aristocracy was a blessing, yet a sham one, having no root in the soil or property of the country, was the greatest curse that could be fastened upon a community which had no sympathy with such an institution. He was, therefore, fully convinced, that our only permanent chance of going on well with the colonies was, to put the Legislative Councils on a different footing, and introduce the principle of election into them. This was the form of the constitution of our old American colonies, which enjoyed the most popular institutions in the world. He had always resisted the application of principles drawn from the United States, when applied to England, from the very different circumstances and habits of the two countries, but it was equally wrong to assert, that because in England, from the gradations of ranks and privileges, and the state of society, it was impossible to revert wholly to the popular principle, that therefore that principle must not be resorted to in our colonies where the materials and construction of society were so wholly different, He was bound in justice to declare, that the colonies had been treated in the most kind and considerate manner by the right hon. Gentleman (Sir George Murray) who lately presided over the colonial department, and that his system had been followed up with great activity by the 770 noble Lord who had succeeded him. The colonists made no complaints against their governors, as connected with their present institutions, but they complained that these institutions required amendment. The colonists expressed no distrust in the administration of the colonial department in this country, and he was certain their confidence was retained, and with that view he would conclude by entreating his noble friend, at the head of that department, not to attempt to trifle or neglect this great question, but to look forthwith into the whole state of the British colonies with an earnest desire to redress their grievances and improve their institutions. As he understood his hon. friend, the member for Middlesex, had a petition to present from the other province of Canada, on the subject of the clergy reserves, he would take the present opportunity to declare, that it was absolutely necessary for the peace of the colonies, that an end should be put to the pretensions of the Church of England, and a perfect religious equality established. He was a friend to that Church in this country, where the majority of the people professed its doctrines, but the case was different in the Canadas, and it was perfect madness to attempt to build up an Established Church there. The sooner the attempt was abandoned the better.
§ Viscount Howicksaid, he entirely agreed with his hon. friend, that a petition coming unanimously from the House of Assembly of Lower Canada was entitled to the best consideration and attention of that House. He also concurred with his hon. friend, that the Colonial Legislatures ought to be intrusted with the internal management of the affairs of their respective colonies, and that it was for the interest of all parties that every means should be adopted, which could tend towards increasing the happiness, wealth, and commerce of the colonists. These were the principles which he had always advocated, and they were, he was happy to say, the principles which guided the Administration of which he formed so humble a part. The only case in which the House had been called upon to legislate with regard to Canada, since the accession of the present Ministry to office, was, with respect to two Acts which were brought in for the sole purpose of removing technical difficulties. The latter of the two was an Act to enable his Majesty to consent to an Act of the local 771 Legislature, for regulating the financial affairs of the colony. With respect to the complaints of the petitioners, his hon. friend had admitted, that the judicial system had been improved. The first object of every Government ought to be, the impartial administration of justice; and to obtain which, it was necessary that those who were to dispense it should be wholly independent of the executive power. Such an independence had been completely effected by the present Government. An Act had passed the Colonial Legislature, at the recommendation of the noble Lord at the head of the Colonial Department, by which a permanent salary was established for the judicial officers, and their situations were made to depend wholly upon good behaviour, similar to the Judges in this country, who were wholly independent of the Crown. They were not to exercise any political authority whatever except the Chief Judge, who was to be a member of the Council, because it was desirable to have a member competent to give legal opinions if that was found necessary. With respect to the appropriation of the estate attached to the Jesuits' College, that estate had never been diverted from its original purposes of education, and, in future, it was to be exclusively devoted to these purposes, under the superintendence of the local assembly. Passing by other matters of detail which were in course of being remedied, he would beg to add a few words on the subject of waste lands, and the method by which they had hitherto been managed. He had no scruple in declaring his opinion, that an improved system could be devised, but he must add, that the fault of this arrangement did not wholly rest with the Government, but was to be ascribed to the incorrect notions entertained as to the best manner of disposing of this species of property. These incorrect notions were also shared by the local assemblies. So long as free grants of land were made, he believed it to be impossible but that some abuses must exist, and the only effectual remedy was an improvement in the system of making grants. The only other question with which he would trouble the House regarded the composition of the legislative bodies. He was free to admit, that the legislative council was not formed in the most unexceptionable manner, but how it was to be improved was a question of great 772 importance, which he would not go into. He was enabled, however, to state, that means had been taken to render the appointments to it more popular, and to gratify the people. He trusted these measures would be sufficient, combined with other alterations which were in progress, to remedy the defects which he allowed existed in the present constitution of the Assemblies. If experience should prove that, these alterations were not sufficient, there would be no serious indisposition on the part of Government to consider whether the council ought not only to be increased in number, but that some modification of the principle of its appointment should prevail. He trusted, this short explanation would be satisfactory to the House and to his hon. friend, for he would declare, in conclusion, that the noble Lord at the head of the Colonial Department had distinctly recognized the principle, that the local Legislatures of the Canadas were the best judges of the principles to be adopted in the government of that country, and of all matters connected with its internal economy.
§ Mr. George Robinsonsaid, the noble Lord had dealt largely in profession, but that was one of the serious complaints of the colonists, that the endeavours to remedy these grievances never went any further. On nearly the last day of the Session, they began to discuss affairs of vast importance to the colonies, when it was evident no useful amelioration of their condition could be expected. Since the report of the Committee of 1828, which contained a vast body of useful informtaion, little or nothing had been practically done for the improvement of the Canadas. It was wholly impossible for the local Legislature to touch many of the grievances. The clergy reserves, for instance, were appropriated under an Act of Parliament, and therefore one of the most crying evils could not be lessened by the local authorities, in the smallest degree. With respect to the legislative council, he very much doubted whether the degree of popular feeling infused into it in the manner prescribed by the noble Lord, would be sufficient to make it work well. He fully agreed with the hon. Gentleman (Mr. Labouchere), that it was an absurdity to attempt to adhere to the forms of the British Constitution in the government of the Canadas. He did not mean to doubt the good intentions of the 773 noble Lord at the head of the Colonial Department, and of those connected with that department, but he should really be better satisfied if they professed less and did more.
§ Mr. James E. Gordonsaid, he felt called upon to make a few observations upon one subject, which the hon. Member who presented the petition introduced at the close of his speech. He understood, that the hon. Gentleman recommended the establishment of a religious equality in the Canadas. If, by that sentiment, he meant an equal freedom and protection in the worship of the Almighty to all sects and parties, he fully agreed with him; but if he meant the equal support of all sects, he protested against such a doctrine. He could by no means understand on what principle a Protestant State should equalize religion on such terms in its colonies. If any hon. Gentleman considered that the Church of England should be disconnected from the State, let him bring forward a proposition to accomplish his purpose, and he for one would be ready to meet him; but while the Church establishment was part and parcel of the law of the land, he could not, comprehend upon what principle hon. Gentlemen indulged themselves in talking of the equalization of religion. The hon. Member said, he supported the Church of England in this country simply because it was the religion of the great majority of the people, without, as it appeared, caring for the truth or principle of it. From such latitudinarian opinions he entirely dissented. He supported the Church because he approved of its doctrines, and thought it an important part of the Constitution. He must also protest, against being supposed to acquiesce in the opinion, that our religions establishments in Canada were more extensive than necessary. To apply a commercial phrase to things of more importance, he believed the supply was not more than equal to the demand.
Sir James Mackintoshhad listened, with great satisfaction, to the sentiments of the hon. Member who had introduced the petition, and with no less satisfaction had he heard the reply of his noble friend. In most of the opinions advanced in the course of the discussion he agreed, with the exception of those, advanced by the hon. Gentleman who had last addressed the House, who evidently was not Acquainted with the facts the case upon 774 which he undertook to censure the observations of his hon. friend. The hon. Gentleman did not seem to be at all aware that the colonial institutions in connexion with the Established Church in Lower Canada, weakened instead of supporting that Church. The Roman Catholic was the established religion of Lower Canada, and had always been so; and, therefore, the only question was, whether the people should have the religion they liked best, or be forced to adopt one that other persons considered better for them. He admitted this case did not apply to Upper Canada. But the hon. member for Dundalk had equally misinterpreted or misunderstood the sentiments of his hon. friend with regard to the Established Church in this country. His hon. friend had never meant, and certainly did not say, that, because the Established Church was the religion of the majority of the people, that was the cause of his attachment to it. All he meant to say was, that such a case formed a strong ground for the Legislature to support it—a reason which was wholly inapplicable to the state of things in Canada, where the great majority of the people professed a different religion.
§ Petition read.
§ Mr. Labouchere moved, that it should be printed; and, in doing so, begged leave to observe, that he regretted he should have been misunderstood. He was as firmly attached to the doctrine and discipline of the Church of England as the hon. member for Dundalk. He believed that Church was a blessing, and not a burthen, to the country; but he also believed, that the Church was made for man, and not man for the Church. He knew also, that he was supported by the unanimous opinions of the people of Lower Canada, of all persuasions, with respect to the religious institutions of that colony.
§ Petition to be printed.
Mr. Humepresented a Petition, signed by 10,000 Freeholders of Upper Canada, praying that the House would take the state of that colony into their most serious consideration—would direct, their attention to promote education and religion there—would leave all religious sects to be provided for by their various followers, and would abolish all political distinctions on account of religion. In supporting the prayer of this petition, to which he requested the serious attention of the 775 House, he must, in the first place, express his great satisfaction at the sentiments which the noble Lord had laid down as the acting principle of the Government of which he formed a part, with regard to our colonial policy. The noble Lord admitted, that the House of Commons was not the most fit body to legislate for the colonies, but that the parties themselves ought to be intrusted with their own legislation, as they must best understand their own interests. It only required time to carry that fair and liberal opinion into full effect among the colonies. The colony of Canada was particularly deserving of the best treatment from England; for in the hour of difficulty and danger, the inhabitants had most nobly come forward to defend their country from the attacks of the United States, and had defended it successfully, when the troops sent out from this country would not have been alone sufficient to cope with the enemy. He could assure the hon. member for Dundalk, that the sentiments entertained by that hon. Member were not those entertained by the inhabitants of Canada, who, in this petition, had distinctly expressed their hope that all religious sects might be placed on a footing of equality. When he recalled to the remembrance of the House the feuds and broils, the wars and civil discord, the bloodshed and cruelties, which had arisen in every State of Europe from religious dissension, he thought the propriety of this part of the petition could not be doubted. The petitioners also expressed their hopes, that all ministers of religion should be removed from places of political power in the colony. It had been said, that the greatest number of the Ministers of religion was composed of members of the Church of England. It was proved that that was not the fact; for, in 1828, out of 236 ministers of religion there were only thirty-one members of the Church of England; and the complaint of the petitioners was, that these thirty-one engrossed all the places of profit and power in the colony so far as the Church was concerned. That these few pastors should be elevated above all other sects, and be formed into a dominant Church, must naturally give great offence; for the other parties who were the most numerous, justly considered their clergy neglected and degraded by their exclusion from offices. To put an end to all rivalry of this sort, the petitioners 776 most justly, in his opinion, prayed that the clergymen of the Church of England should be debarred from accepting offices the duties of which were inconsistent with those which properly belonged to the teachers of religion. The petitioners also particularly prayed, that each sect might have the power, throughout both Upper and Lower Canada, of solemnizing marriages according to their own peculiar rites, of which many of them had long been deprived, contrary to the repeated and unanimous votes of the House of Assembly. He was, on this part of the subject, very happy to acknowledge, that this grievance would be removed by a Bill which had lately received his Majesty's assent. They also prayed, that the charter of King's College might be modified, so as to put an end to all sectarian tests, which had the effect of excluding all but members of the Church of England from the College Council. At present, men were compelled to sign the Thirty-nine Articles before they could enter the Council; and it was the necessity of doing that, which the petitioners wished to have abolished. He considered this part of the prayer most reasonable and proper, and that the inhabitants of Upper Canada had a just ground of complaint against such a provision. Now that all religious disabilities had been done away with at home, he hoped the same measure of justice and liberality would be dealt out to the colonies. With respect to the appropriation of land to the clergy, the petitioners prayed, that the land hitherto exclusively applied to the purposes of the Church Establishment might be placed at the disposal of Government, for the purpose of being applied to the education of all classes of the colonists. He fully concurred with the petitioners in thinking that this was absolutely necessary, and he had no doubt the House would be of the same opinion when they considered that, in every province in the United States surrounding Upper Canada on all sides, provision was made by the legislatures for the education of every child without any distinction of sex or religious sect. By the legislatures of these provinces it was provided generally, that wherever there were fifty adjacent houses, or even huts, a school must be kept open for six months in the year, and wherever the number increased to double that number of dwellings a school must be kept open during the whole year. Some plan resembling 777 this ought to be extended to our North American provinces. Having thus gone through the principal points of the petitions, as he saw a right hon. Gentleman (Sir George Murray) present, who lately presided over the Colonial Department, he ventured to press the remarks he had made upon his attention, as he (Mr. Hume) considered the late Government had not acted with sufficient liberality to the Canadas, and thereby had caused them to be more dependent on the parent State, which had entailed a heavy expense and burthen upon this country. He had always maintained, that if colonies could not be maintained with advantage to themselves or the mother country, the sooner they parted from each other the better; but he never said the Canadas could not be made most useful to this country, and, at the same time be most prosperous in themselves. He believed, under proper management, both would be found quite practicable, and therefore he hailed, with great satisfaction, the appearance of a more liberal system. He would conclude by requesting permission to bring up the petition, and he would add, that one more replete with argument and sound sense he had never had the honour of presenting to the attention of the House.
Mr. Wilkssupported the prayer of the petition. He agreed in every point with the petitioners, and he had no doubt the same sentiments prevailed in the minds of those illustrious statesmen who had recently been the great advocates for the extension of civil liberty in this country, and who must desire to see religious intolerance uprooted from the soil of our colonies. He, therefore, wished to attract their special notice to a petition which sprung from one of the most important of our colonies—which had stood by us through good and evil report, and was ready to relieve this country from all financial charges on its account. The petition was signed by upwards of 10,000 persons of all sects and creeds of Christians, and in furtherance of its prayer the resolutions of the meeting from which it had emanated pronounced it expedient to supply funds for the promotion of religion and education in the provinces generally; that the pastors of all sects might be left to be supported by the offerings of their respective congregations; that all political distinctions on account of religious faith ought to cease; and the ministers of 778 all religions ought not to have political power; that matrimony should be solemnized according to the faith of the parties; that the charter of King's College should be revised, and the College opened to all denominations of people; and that the clergy reserved lands ought to be appropriated for the purpose of general education, were the wants and the prayers of the petitioners, and the temper and discretion with which they were urged gave them additional force. As to the latter part of their prayer, the clergy reserves, he thought, when it was recollected that they amounted to 3,500,000 acres of land, which would yield an annual income of 350,000l. for a century to come, the bare statement was so monstrous that the very fact of declaring it, was sufficient to prove that a different appropriation of this enormous quantity of land was required; and to what better purpose could it be applied than for the promotion of general education? When to this it was added, that, since 1828, nothing had been done to ameliorate and improve the institutions of the colony, although Canada had been, during the intervening years, largely increasing in population and wealth, when approximation to another State with habits opinions, and interests similar to their own, made it necessary that every measure should be taken to satisfy the people; when all this was the case, he must say, if nothing were done, if the same measure of procrastination was continued, Canada, like the present United States might be wearied by neglect, which would be much to be regretted, for she saw around her enough of evidence to assure her, that if she willed a separation it could not be withheld. But although the petitioners might be conscious of this, they rather appealed to the generous sentiments of the Representatives of the British people than to their fears. He could not believe their hopes would be blighted. The same liberality which was loosening the bonds of bigotry and bad government at home, would extend its boon to the happiness and prosperity of the colonies on the other side of the Atlantic.
§ Sir George Murraysaid, he should not have addressed the House upon this subject unless he had been directly alluded to by the hon. member for Middlesex, in connexion with his remarks relating to the policy of the late Government with regard to Canada. He trusted the sentiments 779 he had always entertained with regard to the subjects to which this petition referred, were sufficiently well known to the House. He conceived that nothing could he more unfortunate for a State, than a difference of political condition among its citizens on account of a difference in their religious opinions, for nothing could be more foreign to the character of true religion than to be dragged forward and forced to become a party in political strife and contention. He could assure the House, that during the time he held the seals of the Colonial Office, there had been no desire on the part of the late Government to adopt the policy of making one sect dominant over the rest. On the contrary, there was a desire gradually to change the old constitution of the colonies in that, respect. He, however, differed from the hon. Member in one respect, for he thought that all sects ought not to be left to provide for their own preachers, but that the Government ought to make some provision for each of the important sects in the country, and endeavour to form some link of connexion with it. Some provision, made in that manner by the Government, would confer a degree of respectability on the sect thus provided for; would connect it in some degree with the State; would prevent the teachers of religion from being wholly dependent on their followers, and thus would prevent them from degenerating into that fervour of religious zeal and enthusiasm which bordered on fanaticism, and which was frequently seen in those who relied for support solely on their power of exciting the feelings of their congregations, teaching, not truth but what they found most to their own interests. It was in conformity with these principles that provision was made in Upper Canada, both for the Catholic and Presbyterian clergy, and with the intention of extending the principle, as it might become proper and necessary, to the clergy of other Christian sects. He was ready to admit, also, that he agreed with the hon. Member, that there ought to be some alteration made in the College charter, so as to destroy the differences now existing on religious accounts. While he had held the seals of office he had suspended the operation of that charter, having it in contemplation to entirely abolish that distinction, and which he certainly should have done had he continued in place. With respect to the Clergy Reserves, it was his opinion that 780 they ought to be the property of the State. He had taken no measures, however, towards carrying that opinion into effect, because Acts had already been passed which permitted some portions of these lands to be sold, and as that portion had not been wholly disposed of, there was no occasion for him, of course, to come to Parliament to authorize the sale of other portions. It was at all times his intention to get rid of that part of the Constitution established for Canada in 1791, by which a seventh part of the land was set apart for the Church, because that Church was unable to bring it into cultivation itself, or of letting it to tenants in a country where the object of every man was to be a landed proprietor. The land, therefore, was wholly inefficient for the purposes for which it was granted; further, it became a great and most inconvenient impediment to the progressive improvement of the country, and because the system of giving a large and exclusive endowment to a particular Church was impracticable in those provinces where there were so many and such various sects, and where, in consequence, a spirit of envy and jealousy existed, which went on continually increasing, and which would, no doubt, be ultimately very injurious to the interests of the Church of England. He hoped this explanation would satisfy the House that there was no want of liberal views in the late Government with respect to any of the topics to which the hon. member for Middlesex had called his attention, or that were comprehended in the petition which he had presented.
§ Mr. George Robinsonsaid, there could be no question but that it was highly impolitic to have a dominant Church in any colony, and the more so when the members of that Church formed the minority. The disproportion between the Established Church and the Roman Catholics and Dissenters in Canada was very great, and was every day increasing against the former by the stream of emigration which annually poured into Upper Canada from Ireland and Scotland. The impolicy of any political distinctions on account of religion was the greater when it was known, that Canada adjoined the United States, where no such distinctions were made. Considering the stream of emigration which was constantly flowing from these countries to the colony, it was a matter of very grave and serious importance to prevent these colonies from becoming a 781 mere passage for our redundant population to the United States. At present, in consequence of the disabilities under which the Canadas were labouring, the strongest inducements were held out to emigrants to pass over to these States, He would suggest that Government should give up the clergy reserves, which, without being available to the clergy to any great extent, were great bars to the cultivation and improvement of the country. It might afterwards be a subject of consideration what provision should be made for the clergy. As to the propriety of leaving every sect, to take, care of its own Church, he would give no opinion at present; it was undoubtedly a question of much difficulty, but as he had himself been in colonies where the various sects lived in the utmost harmony, he should be disposed to consider it unwise to give a dominant power to one sect which was likely to disturb that harmony. The House had a proof of this evil in that unhappy country, Ireland, lie had been pleased to hear the right hon. Baronet (Sir George Murray) repeat (he liberal opinions which all who knew him were convinced he entertained with respect to the colonies.
Mr. Humein moving the petition be printed, apologized to the House for having omitted to mention, that (he petitioners considered themselves the best judges as to what was to be done with the clergy reserves, and they prayed they might be allowed to make such arrangements as they thought proper with regard to them.
§ Petition to be printed.