HC Deb 28 March 1831 vol 3 cc1113-22

The House then resolved itself into a Committee of Supply. On the Motion of Sir J. Graham, there was granted to his Majesty the sum of 21,21l. for the maintenance of the Naval Officers and Naval Yards abroad, and 534,124l. 4s. 4d. for the pay and support of Men employed in the navy yards of his Majesty. On the vote that 810,000l. be granted to his Majesty for the purchase and expenditure of the ensuing year in timber, stores, &c,

Sir J. Yorke

objected to the vote as excessive. He felt a strong objection to the purchase of so many materials, when we had such choice and powerful vessels, either in ordinary or on the stocks. The yards were, generally speaking, on too extensive a scale, and too much had been sacrificed to expensive experiment, as in the case of building the ship, called the Pearl, over which a gallant Admiral, who displayed his flag on the station of the Emerald Isle, occasionally expended his solicitude. Jobs of every kind should be discountenanced, and the practice of altering brigs of war into vessels with three masts he must reprobate as a wanton waste of public money.

Sir James Graham

defended the amount of the vote, by acquainting the House, that it was usual to make a liberal estimate on this head of expenditure, because out of it, should there arise a deficiency for the pay or maintenance of the seamen voted, that deficiency was usually made good, whilst, if there happened to be a less expenditure, the balance was carried on the next year to the credit of the public, under the head of stores. The building of ships had been rendered necessary of late years, notwithstanding the number of vessels in Ordinary, in consequence of the rivalry of other maritime countries whose vessels were so disproportionably larger than ours of a similar class, that we were obliged to build larger vessels, to enable us to maintain our station on the seas.

Mr. Hume

thought that there were in all conscience enough of fighting vessels, and even of round-sterned ships, when there was no prospect of a war with any other country. But what would the right hon. First Lord say in defence of the extravagant waste of the public money in keeping afloat not less than five Royal yachts, as well as one for the Commissioners of the Navy, and one for the Lord Lieutenant of Ireland?

Sir James Graham

begged to say, that the change in the proportions of fourth-rates and frigates of a large class by other maritime and rival countries, had rendered the building of new ships positively necessary to cope with these improved and more powerful vessels, against which our smaller ships of the line and large frigates would have no chance but in the desperate valour of our seamen. Of the five yachts in commission there was not one perfectly manned; their expenditure was small, and this was the only mode which was left to the Board of Admiralty to keep old veteran officers on full pay. The appointments were made with a jealous scrutiny as to merit; and when it was recollected how wide a field of reward was open to military veterans, by appointments to the command of fortresses, the public would scarcely think these five vessels, which constituted almost all of the patronage of the Admiralty in this way, was too extensive to ensure the welfare of the service. As to the Lord Lieutenant of Ireland, it was not proper that, representing, as he did, the person of his Majesty in his Government, he should, when proceeding to sea, appear without the paraphernalia of Royalty; and more especially the present Viceroy should not be deprived of that in which, from his strong bias to nautical matters, it might be supposed he would find particular gratification—namely, a handsome yacht, for purposes of pleasure or utility.

Mr. O'Connell

said, there never yet was wanted an excuse when public money was to be squandered. In the very ludicrous instance of the Lord Lieutenant's yacht, he could assure the House that the noble Marquis at the head of the Irish Government was too much of a sailor to trust himself—whilst he possessed so admirably built and equipped a vessel as that which was his own private property—in such a heavy, clumsy, crazy craft as the Government yacht. The consequence therefore was, that whenever, on state occasions, the Lord Lieutenant left Dublin on a trip to sea, he proceeded from the harbour in this lumbering vessel till he reached the spot where it had been previously settled the steamer, or his own handsome vessel, was to meet him, when he turned his Majesty's yacht adrift, as she deserved, and proceeded in the other vessel.

Mr. Hume

again insisted that these yachts, with their appointments, were unnecessary, and ought to be abolished. And his right hon. friend, the first Lord of the Admiralty, seemed to think, that he was the member of a despotic Government.

Sir James Graham

said, that when he first went to the Admiralty, he thought, as the hon. Gentleman did, that the yachts might be dispensed with; but he had since ascertained, that from the time of William 3rd down to the present, this establishment had been continued in the same state, and that it furnished the only means of bestowing a reward for the services of meritorious officers. That being the case, although he was an advocate for economy, he did not think it would be judicious to abolish this establishment.

Mr. Hume

said, he did not doubt that the right hon. Baronet acted conscientiously, but he must say, for his part, that he cared nothing for William 3rd, and did not think that the wisdom of our ancestors was always a good guide. His question was, whether these vessels were necessary? and he the more particularly objected to their expense, as the Government refused to establish another hospital-ship in the river, which in reality was much wanted. The Dreadnought had been selected for this purpose, but was refused.

Sir Joseph Yorke

said, that, if it were necessary to abridge one single iota of the naval service, the yachts were the first which ought to be dispensed with.

Sir Byam Martin

said, that the expense of the yachts was really so trifling as to be ridiculous to look at. He believed that in the last year they had not cost more than 400l. He hoped the Government would not consent now, or at any other time, to put them down, as it would be very injurious to the naval service.

Sir George Clerk

thought that means ought to be afforded to the Sovereign of occasionally going to sea in a style befitting his regal dignity. Those yachts had always formed part of the royal establishment.

Mr. Warburton

said, that if it were necessary for the Sovereign to go to sea, he could go in a man-of-war. It was not necessary to maintain these vessels, painted and gilded like gingerbread, for the purpose. There was no scarcity of vessels at his Majesty's command.

Mr. Hume

wished to have some explanation concerning the refusal of the Dread- nought, and must request his right hon. friend to give him the explanation.

Sir James Graham

again defended the continuance of these yachts, the command of which, he said, had always been given to men of real merit; and with respect to the conduct of the Government in the matter of the hospital-ship, he observed, that the Marine Society had required the Government to fit up the ship at the public expense, which the late Treasury had declined to do, as the sum required was considerable, amounting to no less than 1,600l. A similar application had been made since he had come into office, and he having referred the matter to the Treasury, it was now under consideration.

Mr. Hume

thought the Government might better have incurred that expense for a great public benefit, than have resolved on others that produced no such advantage. It was very hard on the merchant-seamen to be obliged to pay 6d. per month for Greenwich Hospital when there was no asylum afforded them by the Government. The money thus taken from them amounted to 24,000l. in the year, and was tranferred to Greenwich Hospital, from which, as merchant-seamen, they could derive no benefit.

Mr. George Robinson

said, if the merchant-seamen contributed so much, it would not be unreasonable to give them a ship at an expense of 1,600l. out of the money; and if Greenwich Hospital could not go on without that money, it should be made up to it in another way.

An hon. Member stated, that great anxiety existed at the different sea ports on the subject of the payment to Greenwich, and most of the seamen looked to be relieved from that tax.

Sir James Graham

repeated, that the matter was under the consideration of the Board of Treasury. If that Board consented to the application, he need not say how happy he should be to carry it into execution. With respect to the money drawn from the merchant-seamen, he observed that Greenwich Hospital would suffer much inconvenience from the want of that contribution. It was not true, however, that the merchant-seamen derived no benefit from this payment, for Sir Richard Keats had calculated that one half of the merchant-seamen passed through the King's service, and were, in that way, entitled to the benefit of Greenwich Hospital. But as merchant-seamen they had also a direct benefit, for their sons were entitled to education on the establishment, and Sir R. Keats had calculated that the proportion of merchant-seamen's boys was as four to five out of the whole number in the school. The contribution, too, was only made when the men were at sea, and in actual receipt of wages. In his opinion, Greenwich Hospital was indispensable to our naval superiority, and its means of relieving the unfortunate seamen ought not to be diminished. He would now only add, that he had at that moment the draft of a Bill which he intended to introduce after the Easter recess, and in which he meant to propose to the consideration of the House to give to the merchant-seamen, under certain circumstances, a concurrent claim with sailors in King's ships to the advantages of Greenwich Hospital.

General Phipps

, as Representative for a sea-port, thanked the right hon. Baronet for this communication.

Mr. Warburton

said, if such a measure were carried into operation, there was not a ship-owner who would not approve of the levying of this tax. The hospital-ship, too, was a most useful establishment, as it admitted not only British seamen, but also seamen of any country who required such care and attention.

Mr. Hume

said, that if both the services were to be put upon an equal footing, it altered the case very much; and the only question that remained was, which was the proper way to effect it?

Mr. Schonswar

said, the merchant service had hitherto felt it a most galling grievance that they were compelled to contribute to an establishment from which they derived no benefit.

Mr. Hodgson

believed that an arrangement of the kind proposed would satisfy the seamen.

Mr. Sykes

would prefer having the tax if it were to be continued, levied on the tonnage of the vessels rather than on the seamen.

Resolution agreed to.

The next Resolution was for a grant of 98,000l. for improvements in his Majesty's Dock-yards at home and abroad.

Mr. George Robinson

begged to ask, whether the first Lord of the Admiralty had in his possession any estimate of the expense of completing the establishment at Bermuda? He was told that the climate was ill adapted for the conservation of naval stores, and that Halifax was well adapted. At all events he was sorry that the country had been put to the expense of works at both places. There was another point to which he wished to call the attention of his Majesty's present Government—namely, a previous arrangement for the consolidation of the command in the West Indies and Nova Scotia. The duties could not possibly be efficiently performed where a space of fifty or sixty degrees intervened.

Sir James Graham

said, that the expense of the works at Bermuda was at present uncertain. But at the other stations, the sum now proposed would cover the entire expenses. The present Government were not responsible for the amount of these expenses, as the works had been undertaken by contract before they came into office. Although he had not, as yet, any estimate of the expenses at Bermuda he had appointed a confidential Officer, as a Commissioner, to report to him what portion of the original plan might be dispensed with. He believed that a considerable sum of money might be saved in this branch, and the sum that he now asked for was merely to carry on the works until he should have a complete estimate. He hoped next year to be able to announce the final expense of the completion of the works.

Sir Joseph Yorke

said, that Halifax was certainly too far from the fine-weather country to be advantageous for the purpose for which it had been selected. The works at Bermuda might have been carried on upon too extensive a scale; but let not the right hon. Gentleman imagine that merely sending out a Commissioner would be sufficient; for Commissioners had already been employed, and great care bestowed upon the works. He would take that opportunity of asking why the basin at Sheerness, which had been constructed at so much expense, and which was, in reality a harbour itself, was not used by ships fitting out? There was there every convenience for the purpose of putting all their stores on board at a small expense, and such great facilities for extinguishing any fire that even Etna itself might be put out. Every store, from a sail needle to a bower anchor, ought to be put aboard there before the vessel went out.

Resolution agreed to.

The next Resolution was for 50,500l. for the charges of Pilotage, and other contingencies, for the year.

Mr. Hume

complained of the expense of the light-house at Spithead, which, he said, ought to be thrown upon the Trinity House, which had plenty of funds.

Sir Byam Martin

said, that the lighthouse was for the benefit of King's ships, and, therefore, properly came under the naval department.

Sir J. Yorke

said, that merchant vessels also derived great benefit from these lights and he was of opinion that it would be fair to throw the expense of them on the Corporation of the Trinity House.

Resolution agreed to.

25,000l. for Transports and Freightage, and 24,040l. for the hire of Packets were voted.

The next Resolution was, 25,000l. for ships building in Bombay.

Sir J. Yorke

did not think it right while we were contracting our establishments and keeping down the price of oak at home that such a large sum should be voted for encouraging Parsees instead of our own people.

Sir J. Graham

observed that the charge in the estimate was for work already done.

Sir G. Clerk

said that, in 1828, the late Government had sent out orders to stop the building of ships in India. But on a representation that great loss would be experienced if permission were not given to finish the ships already on hand, leave was given for that purpose. The present, however, would be the last vote required for this object.

Sir Charles Forbes

was sorry to hear that there was an intention to abandon the building of ships at Bombay. The ships built in the East Indies were some of the finest in the service. There was not another ship of war equal to the Ganges. They were likewise built much cheaper than in England, and were almost everlasting. The natives of India had as much right to be employed in building our ships, as those of any other portion of the British Empire; but they seemed to be overlooked, and under the monstrous measure of Reform proposed by Ministers, he did not see how the interests of India were to be represented in that House or defended in the country.

Mr. Sloane Stanley

said that, as a large proprietor of timber, he felt a great interest in the question. He certainly had heard that Indian teak was the best material for ship-building; but after that came Sussex oak; and after that the oak of his own county (Hampshire). But however this might be, he wished to know whether it was the intention of Government to supply the dock-yards, during the present year, with British timber, or whether they intended to supply the Navy with Indian timber, or with timber from the coast of Africa?

Sir B. Martin

stated that the intention was to use one half British, and one half African timber.

Resolution agreed to.

On the Resolution granting a sum of 782,000l. for Half-pay to the Officers of the Navy and Royal Marines,

Mr. Hume

asked whether the regulations with respect to promotion were adhered to?

Sir James Graham

said, that the plan of making one promotion for three vacancies had been adhered to, and he was happy to say the effect of it was visible in a diminution of from 2,000l. to 3,000l. on the half-pay charge of the year.

Resolution agreed to, as were,

Resolutions granting a sum of 246,058l. for pensions to Officers, their Widows and Relatives, granting 1,300l. as Bounty to Chaplains.

On the Resolution that 249,200l. be granted in Out-pensions of Greenwich Hospital,

Sir Joseph Yorke

asked what was the intention of the First Lord of the Admiralty as to admitting merchant seamen to a participation in the benefits of the Hospital?

Sir James Graham

said, another opportunity would arise for his giving explanations on that subject; but he might say that, as at present advised, he did not propose to admit merchant seamen as out pensioners, but he was disposed to allow their claim to enter the Hospital as inpensioners, in common with the seamen of his Majesty's service, subject, however, to the examination and consideration of the Board of Admiralty.

Resolution agreed to.

The sums of 155,905l. for Superannuations in the Civil Department. 136,000l. for defraying the expense of ships for the conveyance of stores. 3,000l. for the conveyance of Stores to the Swan River; 88,500l., for sending convicts abroad. 3,380l. bounty for the capture of piratical vessels. 30,050l. for the salaries of officers and the contingent expenses of the Victualling Office, were also voted.

On the Resolution granting 63,363l.; for the expenses of the Victualling Yards,

Sir G. Clerk

asked if it was the intention of the right hon. Baronet to discontinue the supply of beer for the Navy at home?

Sir James Graham

said, that it was intended to discontinue the supply of beer except in the case of a crew returned from a very long voyage, whose health required a change of that description, when the beer would be supplied by contract. It was by effecting various reductions in the yards of Deptford and elsewhere that he was able to reduce the estimates of the expense of each man from 32s. to 29s. per month.

Mr. Hume

was at a loss to know why our naval victualling was not all supplied by contract. Instead of that, we adopted the most expensive mode of curing meat. If meat was anywhere at a higher price than elsewhere it was in the London market; and yet Government bought it in that market, and then sent it down to Deptford to be cured. A saving to a great amount might be effected by adopting a different practice. As the Army was victualled by contract, why not the Navy? The East India Company victualled their ships by contract; they had no stores. He had no doubt that 50,000l. a year might be saved by a different plan of management.

Colonel Sibthorp

asked if it was the intention of Government to discontinue the Commissioner at Deptford?

Sir J. Graham

said, that the answer to this question depended upon the course which would be pursued with respect to the suggestions of the hon. member for Middlesex. If the yards were to be kept up on their present scale, the retention of the Commissioners would be indispensable. The question, however, was, whether it would not be better to supply the Navy by contract. As a general rule there could be no doubt but that contract was the best method; but this rule admitted of exceptions, and beef was one. As the contractors were few, the establishment was found extremely serviceable in keeping-combinations in check; and he understood that, a few years ago, a sum was saved more than sufficient to cover the expenses of the establishment by defeating some such combination. With respect to bread there was no security for getting the best sort, except by manufacturing it. If bread was found to have even a slight de- fect, when a ship was on a foreign station, it was all condemned and sent home, with all the costs of freight—so that it was much more safe, and more economical also, to manufacture that article for the Navy, instead of obtaining it by contract.

Resolution agreed to,

24,242l. for Salaries and contingent expenses of the Naval Medical establishment. 30,000l. for Medical Stores in the Navy in 1831. 31,611l. for provisions for Officers of ships in ordinary. 8,557l. for provisions for Officers and men in the yard service afloat. 86,457l. for new works in the Victualling and Medical departments. 157,576l. for half-pay and pensions and superannuations to Medical Officers, pursers and Clerks. 175,000l. to defray the expense of troops in Garrison on foreign service and convict service, were also voted.