Sir James Grahamsaid, that in bringing forward the Navy Estimates on this occasion, he did not think it necessary to make any observations, as they were the same which had been presented and agreed to by the House in the last session of Parliament. All the difference between the present and the late Estimates was, that in the present he had brought down the balance from the 1st of January to the 1st of April. He concluded by moving that 32,000 men be employed in the sea service of his Majesty for the next thirteen lunar months.
§ Sir G. Clerksaid, that he did not rise to make any objection to these Estimates. He must, however, remark, that though the number of seamen was nominally the same, there was practically a great increase in the naval force of the country this year. The Committee would perhaps recollect, that up to February last, the naval department of the country was charged with the care of the revenue in the counties of Kent and Sussex, and that 2,700 men were employed in that service. Since that time all that duty had been transferred from the Navy Department to the Board of Customs, and the right hon. Baronet had, in consequence, held out to them that a saving of 70,000l. a year would thus be effected. Now if the same number of men were to be voted for the sea-service after this arrangement as was voted for it before, an increase, instead of a diminution, of expense would be caused by the transfer; for while the number of 375 men in the Navy would remain nominally the same, there would be an increase of 150,000l. in the expenses of the Board of Customs. He had no doubt, that the right hon. Baronet opposite was prepared with some reasons for retaining so large a naval force, but he had not thought proper to assign any of them to the House. The right hon. Baronet told them that he intended to exercise the guardships in nautical manœuvres during the summer months, and he (Sir G. Clerk) had informed the right hon. Baronet in turn, that that intention would be facilitated by taking the men for that time from the blockade service. The Lords of the Admiralty had not, however, pursued that course, but had discharged all the men engaged in that service. The consequence was, that they had now a large fleet assembled at Spithead, which they could not send to sea, because it was not sufficiently manned. He thought that before the winter was over the Chancellor of the Exchequer would receive heavy complaints from the British manufacturers, of the injury which they had received from the quantity of goods smuggled into the country, owing to the abolition of this very valuable description of naval force. He would, in conclusion, beg the hon. Baronet to give the House some information concerning the increase of 2,700 which he contended had been made.
Sir James Grahamhoped, that the House would distinguish between the two branches of the question, into which the speech of the hon. Baronet opposite naturally divided itself; he meant the fiscal question, which related to the protection of the revenue, and the naval question, which related to the number of men to be employed in the sea-service of the year. With regard to the fiscal question, he had the authority of the Board of Customs to say, that the revenue would be better protected under the new system than under the old, and that a saving of 70,000l. a year would be effected to the public by the transfer to which the hon. Baronet had alluded. With regard to the naval question, there was some truth in the objection of the hon. Baronet, that we had parted, by our new course, with a valuable part of our naval force. His (Sir James Graham's) objection, however, to this force was, that it was not that which it pretended to be: it was not a naval force so much as a land force; and a proof of his 376 position was to be found in the fact, that when an offer was made, to take every able seaman of the force, after examination, into His Majesty's navy, there were not more than 800 of them which the captains of the fleet would admit, although 2,400 of them were rated as able seamen. He begged leave to inform the committee, in reply to the hon. Baronet's statement, that since he had come into office, he had borne off nearly 1,000 men more than his predecessors. When he came into office, there were 30,967 men rated in the navy; now there were only 30,007 men, since the coast-guard had been paid off. The Britannia, which was a first-rate, and a seventy-four-gun ship, were now on their return from the Mediterranean, and as soon as they arrived at Spithead their crews would be paid off. Thus another reduction would be effected, which, with the 1,000 men already borne off, would make a reduction of at least 2,000 men in the naval force, and would thus bring it almost to the same amount as if the coast-guard were at once dismissed. This was not the course of the late Administration. They had generally in employ a larger number of men than was voted by Parliament, and they paid them by the application of sums voted to other purposes.
§ Mr. Leadercomplained, that though so much of the money devoted to naval purposes was raised from Ireland, there was but one naval station in that country, and little of this money expended in it for naval purposes. She had 8,000 miles of coast, indented with harbours, and but one naval station, which he understood was about to be removed. The whole expense of Ireland in the Naval Estimates was 1,500l. When he looked to the enormous sums expended on the Admiralty and on the Navy-office, he could but regard this parsimony as to Ireland to be most mischievous. The coast offered facilities for supplying the people with food, which they would embrace with very little encouragement. But the people were unattended to, and were consequently discontented and disturbed. He knew that the next grant was a million of money for the 20,000 soldiers which were maintained in Ireland. He likewise knew, that since the countries had been united, 93,000,000l. had been expended on the military service in that country. He wished, however, that the maritime connexion between England and Ireland should be greater than it was at 377 present, and he hoped, that Government would take that point into consideration before these Estimates were again submitted to Parliament. Some rational measures of this kind might enable the people of the sea-coast to emerge from their never-ending round of poverty, distress, and famine. He must, as an Irish Gentleman, protest in the strongest language against the two-fold injustice of taking so much from Ireland, and of spending none of the public revenue in promoting its improvement.
Mr. Humebegged to ask his right hon. friend at the head of the Admiralty, whether he was to understand, that when the ships he had spoken of returned from the Mediterranean, the expenses of the navy would be reduced?
Sir James Grahamstated, that by the transfer from the Admiralty to the Customs there would be a nett saving of 70,000l.; that he had already reduced 1,000 men in the navy, and that in addition, on the return of the Britannia and a seventy-four, their, crews would be paid off; so that on the whole there would be a reduction of about 2,000 men.
Mr. Humeinquired, if the country was to derive any advantage from the 2,400 men transferred from the Admiralty in the reduction of expense. As he was one of those who, after examination, had advocated the propriety of this transfer, he wished to know what the benefit would be.
§ Vote agreed to, as were several subsequent items.
§ On the vole for 810,000l. for timber and materials being put,
Mr. Humethought the sum immense under present circumstances. The right hon. Baronet might be anxious to lay in a good stock, but he feared a great loss must result from having so many perishable stores. He would also take this opportunity of asking, whether it was true that the great force now at Spithead, and which was expressly designed to sail for practice, was now detained there for the purpose of holding a Court Martial? He understood there was a sufficient number of pennants in the harbour for that purpose, without delaying the fleet for a fortnight; and, at all events, the Court Martial was not of such consequence, but that it might be delayed, and not suffer the fine weather to be lost.
Sir James Grahamsaid, that the fleet was not detained for that purpose, but 378 that it was not yet manned; and as, per-haps, it might be obliged to remain eight or ten days, it was thought that the Court Martial might be as well held. As to the sum asked for, on coming into office he had consulted with the Comptroller of the Navy, and his opinion was, that with due regard to the public service, it would be necessary to incur this expense.
§ Mr. Cressett Pelhamrecommended to the House to take into its consideration the declining state of the oak timber of the country. The price was so low that the supply must diminish.
§ Colonel Sibthorpwas of opinion, that if means were not taken to encourage the growth of oak timber, the English Navy must fall to the ground.
Mr. Humesaid, another question occurred to him, and that was, why there should be any difficulty in manning the fleet now, when there were vast numbers of sailors in every harbour? The truth he believed was, that sailors would go only with certain captains, and this must be the case while these officers retained the power of inflicting arbitrary punishment, without holding a Court Martial. Sailors in ships of war ought to be placed on as good a footing as those in the merchant service. In some ships a lash was not given from year's end to year's end, while in others a week never elapsed without it. He hoped, therefore, his right hon. friend would take care to introduce proper regulations on this point, for if we should come again to a state of hostilities, we should be obliged to have recourse to that un-English and unconstitutional system of pressing, which he looked upon with abhorrence.
Sir James Grahamadmitted, that the question of corporal punishment was one of vast importance, and he agreed with his hon. friend that no more important duty could devolve on the Government than that of making the naval service agreeable. He assured the House that no endeavour had been wanting on his part, or on that of his predecessors, to whom he was most anxious to do justice, in order to effect this object. Indeed, the last step of the last Admiralty Board had produced a very great improvement, by placing the power of punishment in the captains, under certain control. A regulation was made to oblige every captain to send a statement of every punishment, with the evidence of the crime for which it was inflicted, thus forming a kind of 379 record of all the circumstances. He had gone one step farther, as every fortnight he had these statements submitted to the inspection of a Board of six persons at the Admiralty. This was an examination, no doubt, after punishment, but it materially increased the weight of the responsibility of the party inflicting punishment, when he knew that his conduct would be inquired into, and all the circumstances duly weighed. Though it might be found expedient to retain in the hands of the Admiralty the power of impressment, he was most ready to admit, that every precaution that could be adopted ought to be had recourse to, in order to prevent the necessity of resorting to that method of raising men for the service. It was a matter of the most serious consideration, whilst endeavouring to ameliorate the condition of the seamen on board the ship, not to effect that object by reducing that power which was in many cases found to be absolutely necessary to be vested in the commander, in order that he might hold the crew in subjection. The system upon which the navy would in future be based, was, to supersede the necessity of impressment by making that branch of the public service lucrative, and he would state what had been done since the present Ministry had been formed towards effecting that object. The Coast Blockade establishment was a service of so desirable a nature that former Ministries had always looked upon it as a source of patronage, and had conferred on landsmen those situations that of strict right belonged to naval officers and seamen. This patronage had hitherto been vested in the Board of Treasury, by which it had been used for civil purposes. The noble Lord now at the head of that Board had, however, considered that the public service would be much improved if he transferred this extensive power of conferring reward, on the Board of Admiralty, and he had accordingly done so on this condition, that as soon as ships came into port and were paid off, the captains of those ships should be empowered to certify to the Board the number of men to be discharged from the service, who were willing to serve in that of the Coast Blockade, where the pay was much higher than that of the Navy. In order to qualify the men for this branch of service, it was necessary that they should be enrolled on the ship's books as able seamen, having served afloat 380 for the space of three years at the least, and those who were considered as the best entitled to this reward were to be signalised as such by the captain. It had also been settled, with the consent of the Board of Customs, that opportunities should be afforded them of rising in the preventive service, by rendering the seamen eligible to the offices of tide-waiters, and other situations of trust in the Customs department, whereby it would be seen that there was the strongest possible inducement for men, not only to enter the naval service, but also to qualify themselves by good conduct for their certificate, which opened such prospects to them.
§ Sir George Clerkheard the Statement just concluded by the right hon. Baronet with the greatest pleasure, and he was sure that all those to whom the welfare of the Navy, that important branch of the public service was dear, would be equally gratified by it. He wished to state in reply to the hon. member for Middlesex, that the reason why the fleet could not get men was, not an unwillingness to enter his Majesty's service, but a fear, as the guardships were fully manned, that, if they entered for the cruise, they might be discharged in the autumn, and would then be out of employment. The hon. Member would not like to vote money for keeping these men through the winter, and if he recommended keeping them, he must depart, in favour of his friend now in office, from his usual principles of economy. He must also express the undivided satisfaction with which he had listened to the intimation which had been given by the right hon. Baronet that the Government had determined not to deprive itself of the power of impressment; an acknowledgment, though a tacit one, of the immense importance of this power in cases of Urgent necessity.
Mr. Humeobserved, with reference to the remark of the hon. Baronet, that in assenting to the vote of Supply for the support and expense of training 20,000 seamen, he did so under a full impression that this number of men was to be kept up the whole year, and was not to be diminished after a month or two. He confessed, that he could not see the policy of incurring the expense of training men for the service, and after they had learned their duties as seamen at the cost of the public, to discharge them. He repeated his hope, therefore, that these men were to be kept on for the whole of the year.
Sir James Grahamremarked, that the observation which had fallen from the hon. Baronet, relative to the difficulty of manning the fleet, was perfectly correct, for it was the supposition on the part of the seamen that the Government did not intend to keep up the present number of seamen, which led to their unwillingness to enter. The hon. member for Middlesex was right when he characterised the act of incurring all the expense of training the men, and afterwards of dismissing them, as one of folly, and he might be assured that no such error would be committed by the present Board of Admiralty.
§ Mr. Crokerbegged to say a few words on the subject of the present vote, lest his silence should he misinterpreted; and first he must observe, that he entirely disagreed with the right hon. Baronet and the rest of his colleagues, as to the principle upon which they had framed the Navy Estimates, wherein they differed from those of former years. It was, in his opinion, perfectly impossible to have a more complex or a worse system than that which the right hon. Baronet had suggested to the House, and which was substituted for one, the arrangement of which was clear, concise, and accurate. There was also a circumstance to be explained, which, though trivial, was yet of great importance, on account of the principle which it involved. An order had been lately promulgated by the Board of Admiralty, stating that naval officers of a certain class, who had always been admitted to pay their respects to their Sovereign at Court, were thenceforward to be prohibited from participating in that honour. It was certainly not his wish nor his intention to cavil at any order which his Majesty might be pleased to issue with respect to his Court; but what he wished chiefly to impress upon the House at this moment was, the importance of this order as affecting the condition of the half-pay department. There was, he would assert, nothing more deserving of serious consideration, than any attempt to subject officers on half-pay to military command; and looking at the subject in this light, he could not but say, that in his opinion the Secretary of the Admiralty had no right whatever to issue the order in question. He trusted to hear some satisfactory explanation of this circumstance from the right hon. Baronet opposite.
Sir James Grahamregretted the absence of the right hon. Gentleman on the former discussion, as they had been thus deprived of the benefit of his known talents and experience, but he thought, nevertheless, that the arrangement proposed by Ministers would be found more conducive to the systematic clearness of detail than that which he would have recommended. At the same time he begged the House and the right hon. Member opposite to recollect, that when he had propounded the system to them, he acknowledged that there was an appearance of intricacy and confusion which would disappear in the succeeding years, and though the right hon. Member had warned him of the possibility which existed that such confusion would arise and continue, he could not but hope, as, indeed, he firmly trusted would be the case, that the Navy accounts would become not only clear, but completely intelligible to the House and the country. With respect to what the right hon. Member had urged on the minor topic of his speech, he would only reply to the remark, that the order of the Board of Admiralty was a military order, that the order itself extended only to those officers who are on full pay, and who, consequently, were under the control of the Board. The right hon. Member was perfectly correct, when he said, that he denied the authority of the Board over half-pay officers; but he must be allowed to remind him that the half-pay officers of the Navy were left at liberty to pay what attention they liked to the order.
§ Mr. Crokerasked, did the right hon. Baronet mean to say that, by the order of the Board of Admiralty, it was meant that those officers who were on full pay, and who, from that circumstance, might be argued as being more deserving, were selected as the properest persons to be forbidden to pay their respects at Court, whilst the officers on half-pay, who must be deemed less worthy, were suffered to retain that privilege? Was it not notorious that by the regulations of the service no officer on full pay could attend the levee without obtaining that leave of absence which would enable him to go? And was it not obvious that the order in question had been intended to restrain the half-pay officers from going to the levee, by exerting a power which the Board of Admiralty was not possessed of? Besides, the order to the full-pay officers ought to have been 383 communicated to them, through the medium of their commanding officer, in conformity to established and unvaried practice, and the necessary notices to the half-pay officers ought to have been issued to them in the Navy List, as was usually the case.
Sir James Grahamsaid, that if this order had arisen from error (and he by no means admitted that that was the case), it was at all events only an error in point of form; for the right hon. Gentleman had not even impugned the substance of the order. If the right hon. Gentleman wished to raise the question of its propriety, he (Sir James Graham) would be quite prepared to meet him on it.
§ Mr. Crokersaid, that if that was the only explanation he could obtain, he should be disposed to make a distinct motion on the subject. He was prepared to deny altogether the power of the Admiralty to make any such order.
Sir James Grahamsaid, that in that case, he should reserve himself for the distinct motion of the right hon. Gentleman.
§ Mr. Crokersaid, that that reservation would not serve the right hon. Baronet, Would he renew his statement that it was a question of doubt whether the Admiralty had the authority which it had exercised?
§ Vote agreed to.
§ On the Motion "That 24,040l. be granted to his Majesty for the hire of packets for 1831,"
§ Mr. Crokerasked for an explanation of a notice recently issued, that a considerable tonnage of transports was required, The circumstance, he believed, had occasioned some alarm amongst certain members of the commercial body, and he asked for the explanation that the country might know what was going on.
Sir James Grahamreplied, that there was no cause whatever for any alarm, as the tonnage required was only for the quarantine service, and would not produce any consequence at all prejudicial to the mercantile interest.
§ Sir G. Clerkinquired whether the goods on board vessels under quarantine were to be landed on the island of Sheppy, as reported. That island was very unhealthy even at present, and the probability of such a dangerous proceeding had already given the inhabitants some natural uneasiness.
Sir James Grahamcould give no positive pledge upon the subject, but added 384 that Government was in constant communication with the Board of Health, and that they would observe every precaution which skill or prudence could suggest as a preservative from infection.
Sir B. Martinsaid, that landing goods would be the last expedient, but if the ships were found insufficient, recourse must be had to Sheerness dock-yard, or some other place of the same sort.
§ Vote agreed to.
§ "88,500l. to defray the expense of passing convicts to New South Wales for 1831," was the next vote proposed.
Mr. Humehoped, that Government contemplated some arrangement which would diminish the expense of transporting convicts. He must also take that opportunity of animadverting on the extravagance of supporting a squadron on the coast of Africa for the purpose of putting down the slave trade, when it was notorious that at no former period had its operation been more pernicious than at this very moment. In the Committee of Inquiry into our establishments on the western coast of Africa, it came out, that there were three times more slaves now carried from that quarter of the world than there used to be before we attempted to put the trade down; our exertions having had the effect of making the ships more crowded, so that instead of vessels of 200 or 300 tons, carrying only 200 or 300 slaves, they carried 700, and sloops of sixty or seventy tons, carried 300 wretched human beings. One gentleman stated, that he had been told by a slave-trader, that he calculated upon making the run to the Brazils in about three weeks, and if he got one-third of his miserable cargo across alive, he was well satisfied. The country had paid three or four millions to produce this state of things. Plans had been laid down for sending steam-boats up the rivers, and preventing the embarkation of the slaves, and certainly, if that could be accomplished, much suffering might be spared. If a Committee were appointed to inquire into the subject, such scenes of horror would be laid before it, that no humane man could rest content till the system was altered. It should be remembered, too, that one consequence of the course now pursued was, to ruin our West-Indian interest. He objected to our maintaining a squadron on the coast of Africa, which cost 100,000l. or 120,000l. a year, with no other effect than that of increasing the 385 miseries of the negroes. It was evident that this squadron was mischievous, and he should recommend the appointment of a Committee to inquire into the present state of the slave-trade.
§ Colonel Sibthorpconsidered the expense for transporting convicts unwarrantably great, looking at the slender financial resources of the country, and he should readily agree to any vote that would lessen it.
§ Mr. Crokerobserved, that the efficiency of our squadron on the coast of Africa was in itself a cause of cruelty to the slaves, inasmuch as difficulties being thrown in the way of the contraband trade, those who carried it on did so with less regard to the comfortable conveyance of the slaves than formerly. He was satisfied, that unless all the maritime Powers were to unite for the suppression of the slave-trade, and allow a right of mutual search, that it would be infinitely better for the interests of humanity were we to diminish or even to withdraw our interference.
Sir J. Grahamwas not disposed to differ from the hon. member for Middlesex, nor from the right hon. Gentleman, in the opinions which they had expressed on this subject. He admitted that the expense of the establishment for the suppression of the slave-trade was enormous, and, still worse, unavailing; for, so far from the trade being checked, he believed it was increasing. He concurred with the right hon. Gentleman in saying, that without a mutual right of search, every effort to suppress the slave-trade must be unsuccessful. The trade was chiefly carried on under the flag of France: negotiations were now pending with that Power on the subject, and he trusted that she would throw no difficulty in the way of the adoption of such a plan as might tend to the effectual suppression of the slave-trade.
§ Vote agreed to.
§ On the vote of "63,363l. for the Salaries of Officers belonging to the Victualling-yards," &c.,
§ Mr. Crokerobserved, that a report was in circulation of the existence of cholera in the west of Ireland; he mentioned it for the purpose of giving the right hon. Baronet an opportunity of contradicting it.
Sir J. Grahamsaid, he believed the rumour to be entirely unfounded. In some parts of the distressed districts fever had shown itself; but every thing had been done to alleviate the sufferings of the poor 386 by Government, and by private exertions, and he was happy to understand that distress, and its concomitant, fever, were yielding before the means resorted to.
§ Vote agreed to.
§ On the vote of "86,457l. for new works in the Victualling Department,"
Mr. Humeasked, whether the present Government intended to resort to a proceeding which had been censured in the late Government? He referred to the appropriation of sums of money to purposes other than those for which they had been voted.
Sir.J. Grahamsaid, Ministers would in all cases endeavour carefully to avoid such a course; but if they should be compelled to make the slightest deviation into it, they would take the earliest opportunity to inform Parliament of the proceeding.
§ Vote agreed to.
§ On the vote of "157,576l. for Half-pay and Pensions of Medical Officers," &c,
Mr. Humewas satisfied that the time was come for putting a stop to promotions in the navy. For a year, at least, we ought not to promote a single naval officer, except under peculiar circumstances.
Sir J. Grahamsaid, if the plan of one promotion in three vacancies had been adopted at the close of the war, it would have been productive of good effects. Government would strictly adhere to that plan, but it must be admitted, that it was necessary not to put a stop to promotion altogether. The springs of emulation would, in that case, be destroyed, and the navy be stricken as with a palsy. The average age of Post Captains was fifty-nine, and if no promotion were to take place, the fleet would soon be left without efficient senior officers. He admitted the propriety of his hon. friend watching promotions, but to put a stop to them altogether would ruin the navy.
§ Mr. Crokerobserved, that the great number of officers now in the navy was the result of a protracted war, and twenty years' unparalleled naval exertion. If the system of one promotion in three vacancies bad any fault, it was on the side of economy, and sure he was, that if we fixed the scale of promotion within narrower limits, the day would come when England would have to rue such short-sighted economy. Promotion was necessary to keep up a proper spirit of emulation in the service.
Mr. Humebelieved, the country would 387 yet rue the system which the Government with which the right hon. Gentleman had been connected had pursued. He did not complain that those officers, who had served a proper time during the war, should be promoted; there was, perhaps, justice in making 1,400 Midshipmen Lieutenants; but promotion had gone on (luring sixteen years of peace, in proportion to the numbers employed, as much as during the war. In war, promotion was rapid; it was the soldier's harvest; but many of those promoted since the peace, had not served in the war, but had run over the heads of older officers, who were seamen before they were born. This was, indeed, a system the country would rue; and if he found that it was persevered in, he should make some distinct motion on the subject.
§ Remaining Votes agreed to.