Mr. Warburtonhad been long desirous of moving for certain papers relating to the Cholera Morbus, and would take that opportunity of doing it. He did not know, that he should move specifically for all the papers on the subject, because a right hon. Gentleman had told him they could not be produced without inconvenience. The papers he intended to move for were these:—first, he understood that the Government were in possession of an important document, namely, the Report of the Deputy Adjutant-general to the emperor of Russia, stating the progress of the disease. If they really were in possession of that document he should like to see it. There was another document, containing all the cases of cholera which had occurred on board all the vessels sailing from Hamburgh to England, taking an account of all the accidents (the technical phrase) under which death had occurred, and stating how many of these deaths had occurred from cholera on board the said ships. That document would enable him to place before the House the knowledge Government had obtained of the various instances of infection. He should like to know also what became of all such vessels after they were released from quarantine. He must also express a wish to know when Government were first in possession of the knowledge of danger arising from these vessels, and how many days they were under quarantine, together with the report respecting each ship. This information would throw light on what he considered highly important: he alluded to the expression in his Majesty's Speech which had been treated with contempt by medical men. He was sure the College of Physicians would have a curious discussion on that expression. His object was, to ascertain distinctly from what source the infection had reached this country. He wished future historians to be able to report correctly whether this disease was indigenous or not. They had traced it from Astracan to Hamburgh, and to persons who came from Hamburgh to this kingdom. Although it was surrounded with so much mystery in the Speech from the Throne, he believed it had been introduced to this country in the same manner it was carried to Astracan and Hamburgh. He should have thought, after the knowledge which Government possessed of the means to prevent the spreading of contagion, by cutting off any connection with the 309 diseased, they must have seen that the cholera was communicated from person to person, and that measures might have been taken to prevent communication. He would have surrounded the house or houses where it was first discovered with a cordon. The unfortunate persons might have been treated with kindness and humanity, and if that had been done he believed the cholera would not have extended. It was the duty of his Majesty's Government not to sit quiet with Turkish indolence. They ought to stop communication as the only means of preventing the spread of the disease. He called on his Majesty's Government to adopt that mode of arresting it. The expense was nothing compared with the good effect such a system would have produced. The hon. Gentleman concluded by moving for further papers on the subject of the cholera.
§ Mr. Poulett Thomsoncould assure the hon. member for Bridport, that there was every inclination to grant all the papers that were in the possession of his Majesty's Government, relating to the subject of the Cholera Morbus; and that the only reason why it was proposed to the hon. Gentleman, that he should select those papers which he might consider most desirable to have produced, was one connected with a consideration of the expense. As there were a great many papers in all, there would necessarily be considerable expense incurred if they were to be all produced. It was, therefore, very expedient that the hon. Gentleman should make a selection; and if his hon. friend would come to his office, every document should be produced, with one or two exceptions—for copies of which he might wish to call. Those exceptions were with regard to some documents which might have been communicated by foreign governments, confidentially; and which therefore, it would not be advisable to produce. He should be very glad, that the other papers should be submitted to the public, and that they should be informed of the steps adopted by the Government in respect to the progress of this disease. Although he was satisfied that the public would not join in the censure of the hon. Member, yet he was most anxious, that the whole of the documents should be well understood, and all the steps that had been taken be thoroughly inquired into, because he felt assured that the whole would be approved of when all that had been done by the Government was sufficiently known. The charges 310 tion brought by his hon. friend against the Government were, principally, having made a mystery of the existence and nature of the disease; and not taken sufficient precautions to oppose its introduction or to check its progress. His hon. friend had characterized that part of his Majesty's Speech which referred to this disease, as "mysterious;" and had stated, that the different members of the College of Physicians to whom he had spoken on the subject had treated that passage with contempt. He did not know whom his hon. friend alluded to; but he was quite certain that those with whom the Government had had any communication, had not been able to agree either as to the specific nature of the disease, or as to the way in which it came into this country. It was not possible to state in the Speech, whether the disease was one which had come into this country from abroad, or whether it had sprung up in Sunderland. Indeed, it was, for some time doubted among the physicians, whether the Sunderland distemper was the Cholera. One day it was declared to be so; another day it was said that it was not; and for five or six days after the disease had appeared there, the physicians of Sunderland declared it was not the Cholera; and even when two physicians went down thither, one of the medical gentlemen of that place was still of opinion that it was not the Cholera. But supposing it was the Cholera, still they had strong evidence as to the great difficulty of determining whether or no it was brought into this country, or, at least, of ascertaining by what means, or through what channel, it had been imported. It was, however, at all events, a question of great difficulty to determine whether this disease was the true Cholera or not. There were two ships which came to Sunderland from Hamburgh; and the question entirely turned upon the point of, whether these ships brought with them the disease. It was difficult to ascertain whether any communication had been had with these ships. But there was one point which admitted of easy solution—and that was, whether any person on board these ships had been affected by the Cholera? From the information which they had received, it appeared that of the crew of these two ships (for there were no passengers), every one seemed, at the time of leaving Hamburgh, and had been ever since, in a state of perfect health, and had never been affected at all. Certainly this created great difficulty in supposing that 311 the disease was communicated by these vessels, unless it was believed (which was the opinion, it seemed, of some gentlemen), that the "miasma," or infected atmosphere, favourable to its propagation, might continue to pervade the cabins or other confined part of a vessel, and may thus communicate the disease upon being entered or opened. He only mentioned this theory, without giving an opinion upon it one way or the other, not being himself in possession of the necessary knowledge to do so. He only meant to state, that there was a degree of doubt upon the subject which was the cause of, and, he apprehended, fully justified the caution observed in his Majesty's Speech, in respect of any statement as to whether the Cholera was introduced from abroad, or rose up in Sunderland. He now came to the only other charge which had been made—namely, that the Government did not take the necessary steps, after those cases had appeared, to prevent the spreading of the disease. He had already stated, that the physicians disagreed entirely among themselves on the subject; it would have been, therefore, very difficult for the Government to justify themselves in having recourse to the measure which the hon. Gentleman had suggested—the attempting to surround Sunderland with a cordon sanitaire. But, admitting that Government had been even justified in doing so, still he was prepared to contend, that such an attempt could have been made only with the most injurious and vexatious consequences to the town and neighbourhood; and would have proved utterly ineffectual, at the same time, for the purpose required. His hon. friend must know, that in towns on the Continent where military cordons were at the disposal of the government, such practices had been adopted; and that they had been invariably found to fail. In Russia, for example, with the exception of the Emperor's palace in the vicinity of St. Petersburg (where the cordon was in a degree successful), these military cordons had uniformly resulted in disappointment. Around Vienna, Berlin, Riga, and at other places, large military cordons had been established, and at all those positions such means had completely failed of their end; and this, moreover, to such a degree, that he had not read of one single town or district, in which they had been planted, where they had not dissatisfied the inhabitants. He could refer his hon. friend to many publications in which the authorities had expressed their regret at having 312 resorted to such means. In Germany, the people had declared, that, instead of good, these precautionary measures had been attended with the most disastrous consequences to the trade and commerce of the countries where they had been introduced. But to carry them into effect in such a country as this was impossible. He would put it to any Gentleman, whether he thought, that considering the habits of the British people, they would submit to such a system for one week? But the hon. Gentleman said, that if a cordon had been attempted around the town of Sunderland, it would have checked the disease. He begged to inform that hon. Gentleman, that such a cordon would have required 25,000 or 30,000 men to enforce it; and where, he asked, could such a force have been obtained? But what had been said by the physicians on the subject appeared to him perfectly just. In placing a cordon around the town, they were not building a wall of stone, but surrounding the place with thousands of human beings, who were all liable to the very infection which they would hedge in. Instead, therefore, of decreasing the disease, they were ensuring its extended communication to all parts of the kingdom. He came now to the other subject of charge, namely, as to the Government's not having taken other measures for preventing the spread of the disease. "Why," asked his hon. friend, "has Government not adopted a forced separation of the sick from the healthy?' To this he must give to his hon. friend the same answer which he had already done to his other charge; which was, that they acted from experience, and only from experience, and on that principle those measures were taken. His hon. friend said, that the physicians complained that their regulations had not been enforced; and he went further, and demanded, "Why, when your physicians, who were sent to St. Petersburg and Riga, say that the physicians at Petersburg adopted, with effect, the principle of forced separation—why do you not follow their counsel?" If the hon. Gentleman had attended to the opinions of Dr. Barry and Dr. Russell (the persons who were sent abroad by Government to inquire into the nature of the disease, and of its mode of treatment), he would have found, that no such effect as he imagines was produced by the enforced regulations at Petersburg. It was their decided opinion, supported by observation, that wherever these regulations had been in- 313 troduced, they had never done any good, but had invariably been productive of evil. These Gentlemen said, in their Report published by the Board of Health after their return, and which Report was written by the Board's direction, and published under their authority—that "With regard to precautions as to intercourse with suspected or really infected persons or places, the Board are confident, that good sense and good feeling will not only point out, but morally establish, as far as may be practicable, the necessity of avoiding such communication as may endanger the lives of thousands. But they strongly deprecate all measures of coercion for this purpose, which, when tried upon the Continent, invariably have been productive of evil. The best inducements to a prompt acknowledgment of the disease having entered a family, as well as to an early and voluntary separation of the sick from the healthy, will always be found in the readiness and efficiency with which public charitable institutions attend to the objects noticed in S. 3. It is with much satisfaction that the Board feel themselves authorized to declare, and it will no doubt be highly consolatory to the public to learn, that under proper observances of cleanliness and ventilation, this disease seldom spreads in families, and rarely passes to those about the sick, under such favourable circumstances, unless they happen to be particularly predisposed." It had been tried in many of the towns in Europe, to separate the sick from the healthy, by taking measures such as those recommended by his hon. friend, that of cutting off all communication; and invariably the same consequences had followed. In the first place, families disliked to be separated from their sick relative, and the consequence was, that every attempt was made to conceal the disease. These were the feelings existing among the poor, as well as among the wealthy classes; nay, even more so in the former, because they were more ignorant. Did not his hon. friend remember what took place in Hungary and at Petersburg, where the town was for three days in possession of the people, and all in consequence of the attempt made to force the sick from the healthy, and convey them to the hospitals? The noble conduct of the Emperor on that occasion would be long remembered. He suspended the regulation, and directed the people to be left to act voluntarily. It was explained to them how much better it was to be taken to the hospitals, where every attention 314 would be paid to their sickness; and it was then left at their option whether they would go to the hospitals or remain at home. From that moment all dislike to be removed ceased, and the people were content to be separated from their friends, and to be treated in the public hospitals according to the system pursued there. That was a case which the Government of this country had thought it its duty to follow. Every kindness was shown towards the people affected by the disease, as well as every consideration paid to the feelings of the relatives. Every care was taken to preserve cleanliness in those parts of the town of Sunderland where the poor were congregated, and more especially where the disease prevailed; and hospitals had been established, in which patients had been already received. Physicians of the greatest eminence had been appointed to attend on the spot, and administer to the necessities of the sick, while other individuals equally disinterested and public-spirited had gone about recommending to the poor to be attended at the hospitals rather than at home, and taking every means in their power to adopt those measures of separation and cleanliness which were found most efficient. These were the steps which the Government had taken to arrest the disease; and he was of opinion that such a course was much more likely to be attended with beneficial consequences, than any enforcement which either this House or the Government could resort to. If persons would exert themselves in reasoning with the lower classes, and endeavoured to persuade them to take advantage, voluntarily, of the facilities afforded at the hospitals, it would be more effectual in overcoming their prejudices than any mode of coercion that could be adopted. He assured the hon. Gentleman that there had been no Turkish indolence on the part of Government, and he was quite sure, that when the public came to learn what had been done by Ministers in regard to this disease, they would be of opinion that their conduct had been most consistent with their duty, and most conducive to the end desired; namely, to check the disease and prevent the spread of the contagion to any other part of the kingdom. Whilst the whole faculty were uncertain both as to the nature and the treatment of the disease, it was very difficult for a Government to take so harsh a step on such doubtful information. They had interfered in every possible way to effect that 315 which might prove the most beneficial in its results; and, therefore, they hoped what had been done would be satisfactory to the country.
§ Sir Richard vyvyansaid, that he was aware of the impossibility of surrounding Sunderland with troops. He had traced the progress of the cholera through the various countries which it had ravaged, and he was sure, that the quarantine regulations ought to have been more strictly enforced. There had been too much laxity, he regretted to say, respecting these regulations, but he trusted, now that the disease had made its appearance, that by cleanliness and attention, we might be spared the frightful ravages which had occurred in other parts of the world. Before the disease had made its appearance in Sunderland and Newcastle, he had called upon Ministers to use every precaution in their power, by strictly enforcing quarantine regulations. He must confess, that he thought Ministers, even after the disease had manifested itself, might have done more than they had towards preventing its spreading. They ought to have attempted to prevent its progress, by having the houses in which the cholera had broken out guarded. It had been shown, by the instance of the palace near St. Petersburg being surrounded by a cordon, and in which there were between 6,000 and 7,000 individuals, that the disease might be kept out; and Ministers were bound, in the first instance, to endeavour to stop the progress of the disease by precautionary measures, and by strictly enforcing the quarantine laws.
§ Mr. Huntsaid, it might not be palatable to hon. Members to hear what he was about to say, but of this he was fully assured, that should the cholera make its appearance in the metropolis, it would certainly visit St. Stephen's, for the air which they breathed was unwholesome, and there was a great want of ventilation in the House.
Mr. Warburtoninsisted that cordons had been successful in foreign countries, and he believed they would prove equally efficacious in this. The right hon. Gentleman had spoken about the expense of having a cordon of soldiers round Sunderland, but surely it would have been no great expense to have had the houses guarded in which those afflicted with the cholera lived? There were not now above a hundred houses so circumstanced, and these might most easily be guarded by soldiers. If Government acted with Turkish resigna- 316 as to the disease, it would spread all over the county. He had done his duty in calling the attention of Ministers to the subject, and he could not compel them to act if they were not inclined. He had, before the cholera broke out at Sunderland, complained of the laxity in the observance of the quarantine laws. He would not detain the House longer, but he would call upon Ministers to act, and if they did not, in his opinion they would be responsible for the consequences.
§ Motion agreed to.