SUPPLY—IRISH ESTIMATES. (Hansard, 29 August 1831)

§ Mr. Leader
said, he was requested to call the attention of the House to the reduction of 1,5001. which had been made in the grant to this very useful Society. Though a reduction of such magnitude must lead to a reduction of some portion of the establishment, and must lessen its utility, yet the members of it were not so much alarmed at the reduction of the present year as they were apprehensive that it was only the prelude to withholding the grant altogether. He had been for twenty- 774 nine years a member of the Society, and could bear testimony to the admirable manner in which it was conducted.

Mr. O'Connell
said, that the Society had made the institution a party institution. The Committee on the Irish Miscellaneous Estimates had recommended that the Society should be opened without a ballot, but the Members had paid no regard to that suggestion. They should have had his money if they would have accepted it, but they blackballed him, and many others, and had, in fact, made the Society rather a party club, than a body whose object was the advancement of science. He was sure that if his hon. friend (Mr. Leader) near him had not entered it early in life, he would never have got into it. He thought it too much for this Society to come to Parliament for money, until it had tried fairly whether it could support itself in Ireland. He fully concurred in the propriety of the reduction which had been made.

§ Mr. Anthony Lefroy
thought, that the Society was deserving of every encouragement, and that the grant ought not to have been reduced.

§ Mr. Spring Rice
believed, that this was about the first time that an Irish grant had been objected to on the ground that it was too small. He could assure the Committee, that they (the Ministers) would have been very sorry to diminish the grant to any society which fairly and liberally promoted the advancement of learning; but this Society did not. Perhaps the reduction of the vote might be a hint to the Society to adopt the recommendation of the Committee on the Irish Miscellaneous Estimates, and sacrifice party spirit to the promotion of knowledge. The experiment of charging for lectures in this institution was tried, and the following was the result:—The amount paid for tickets to the mineralogical course was only 71. 10s., for the botanical course but 71. 5s., and for the course of experimental philosophy, which was the most attractive of the whole, the amount received for tickets, though the charge was extremely moderate, was only 2l. 10s. The charge, in fact, for the attendance on all those courses was very small, and the fact of so little being collected in that way proved, either that the lectures were not very interesting, or that the demand for such things in Dublin was not very great; at all events, the circumstance was one which fully justified the 775 Government in making the reduction which it proposed to make in this grant. It should be recollected, that it was not proposed to withdraw altogether the public grant from this Society. It was proposed to give them 5,500l., reducing the grant of last year to the extent of 1,500l. The object was, to revert to the principle upon which the grant had been originally given—namely, that it should to a certain degree be commensurate with, and dependant upon, the amount of local contributions.

Mr. Robert Gordon
entirely approved of this reduction, and only wished that it had been carried further. He had privately understood, that there were seven or eight items in those Estimates, the reduction of which had been recommended by the Finance Committee, and which was now intended to be made by his Majesty's Government. He should like to know from his hon. friend what these items were?

§ Mr. Spring Rice
said, that there were some reductions which had been intended in the Estimates of the present year by the late Government: there were some further reductions which were proposed to be made by the present Government, and all of which had been recommended by the Committee to which his hon. friend had alluded. He should just briefly state what those reductions were. It was proposed to reduce the grant for the charter schools in Ireland to 5,000l. this year, to reduce it next year to 3,000l., and in the year after they hoped to be able to abolish it altogether. The principle of the Foundling Hospital had been altogether abandoned. No more children were admitted there. The attention of Government was now directed to the diminution in every possible respect of the existing expenses of that establishment, and it was expected that the expenditure under that head would soon cease. The Richmond Lunatic Asylum was now made a local charge. There were, however, some public expenses still connected with it, but in the course of a year or two they would be done away. With regard to the Marine Society, it would in future be conducted upon the strictest principles of economy, and Government hoped to be able finally to reduce altogether the grant for that establishment. The grant for the Royal Dublin Society was reduced this year by 1,500l., and it was determined, that the grant to that Society should, in a great 776 degree, depend upon the extent of local contributions. The vote for the police was so prepared, that its amount should be always strictly commensurate with the actual expense of that department. The only remaining public charge was that for the Commissioners of Judicial Inquiry in Ireland, which had ceased altogether, and there was only a half-year's expenditure required for the completion of the public records, and the small sum of 1,0001. for the completion of some other work connected with that commission, which was in hand. His hon. friend was aware that the grant for the stationery department would cease, and when he came to the Irish office, he should be ready to state, that his right hon. friend (the Secretary for Ireland) had been enabled to carry into effect the most economical views with regard to that branch of the Irish Government in London.

Mr. Hume
was sorry to hear from his hon. friend, the member for Kilkenny, any complaint against the reduction made in the grant to the Royal Society of Dublin; it was a mere club, and of the narrowest and most exclusive kind—it was a party club, got up and preserved as a pleasant lounge—he would not say for the heads of the Orange party, but for the great Protestant ascendancy people in Ireland. The facts brought before the Committee were so strong, that the then hon. member for Derry, now the right hon. member for Harwich, was obliged to admit, that there was great difficulty in obtaining admission into that club. There was also an important fact, which he hoped would not escape the attention of the House; namely, that the public paid nine pounds for every one that arose from the individual subscriptions of members. Let it not be supposed, from these remarks, that he should be adverse to the establishment, in Dublin, of a museum on the principle of that which existed in London; on the contrary, he should derive much pleasure from the creation of such an establishment; but he never could lend his sanction to any institution maintained for party purposes. Much had been said, at different times, of the service rendered to the manufactures of Ireland by the encouragement which the Dublin Society afforded. He had frequently seen a good deal about premiums given for straw-hat making and for straw plait, but he confessed he never could make himself acquainted with any 777 other encouragement afforded to Irish manufactures by that body.

§ Mr. Spring Rice
did not approve of any exclusiveness in any establishment supported at the public expense. In order to warrant an application to Parliament for funds, such institutions should always make it appear, that they preserved something of a national character, and that they could never have so long as they were marked by anything of exclusiveness; however, there was much which, though true of the Dublin Society in times past, could not now be asserted of that body; and though it might be the fact that it resembled a club in some respects, yet in others the Society was a really useful institution, and had done much to advance the interests of science in Ireland, and the diffusion of useful knowledge.

Sir John Bourke
protested against the exclusiveness of the system upon which the Society was conducted; and he was quite sure, that if it were placed upon a more liberal footing, there would be abundance of subscribers. At present the Society paid 8001. a-year rent for an immense palace, which was converted into a club conducted on ascendancy principles. An institution of a similar character to the British Museum, he was sure, would meet much encouragement in Dublin.

§ Mr. Leader
denied, that the Society was of an exclusive character. He knew that upwards of 700 gentlemen had subscribed each 301. to this institution, on an understanding that Government should appropriate an annual sum for the attainment of the objects the Society had in view.

§ Sir John Newport
hoped, that Government would not sanction any further grants to the Dublin Royal Society, until the exclusiveness of its system was abolished, and he trusted what had now passed would go far to attain that object.

§ Mr. Wyse
deeply regretted, that the whole system of education in Ireland, and every institution there established for the diffusion of knowledge, was founded upon sectarian principles, and conducted under the influence of sectarian zeal. He hoped that, in future, national support would not be given to any establishment that was not founded upon broad and liberal principles.

§ Mr. Henry Grattan
, in reply to what had fallen from the hon. member for Mid- 778 dlesex, relative to the encouragement given to Irish manufactures by the Dublin Society, observed, that straw-hat making was of more importance to Ireland, and better deserved encouragement, than perhaps many hon. Gentlemen unacquainted with that country might at first view suppose; it had been brought to considerable excellence, even almost to equal that of Leghorn. As to the Dublin Royal Society, he wished to see the abuses of it abolished, but not the whole establishment. Certainly the subscriptions to the Institution were not so great as in times past, for the obvious reason, that the persons who used to support it had become absentees.

Mr. Sheil
observed, that he should recommend, that the sum voted should be placed at the disposal of the Lord Lieutenant, with power to grant or withhold it according to the conduct of the Managers of the Institution. He was convinced, that if the Society was open to persons of all parties, it would be unnecessary to apply for any public grant.

Mr. O'Connell
thought, that this Board should be less exclusive, and that some Catholics should be allowed to be members of it.

§ Mr. Spring Rice
said, that it was the wish of Government to make it as comprehensive as possible. By the exertions of the Commissioners, upwards of 230,0001. of charitable bequests had been already recovered for Ireland.

Mr. Goulburn
was convinced the Board had conferred great benefit upon Ireland. The Commissioners had most studiously avoided the least appearance of party spirit, and had been appointed without any reference to their political opinions. He should, therefore, very much regret if any thing was done to impede their exertions.

Mr. O'Connell
said, that by a decision of Lord Manners, when Lord Chancellor of Ireland, Catholic bequests were equally as valid in law in Ireland as Protestant bequests, and it was, therefore, desirable that some Catholics should be members of this Board.

Mr. Hume
asked, whether a new Act of Parliament would not be necessary, if new Commissioners were to be appointed?

§ Mr. Spring Rice
said, that the Board had been constituted by an Act of Parliament, and that it was the impression of the Committee before whom the matter had come a few years ago, that a new Act of Parliament would be necessary for the appointment of additional Commissioners.

Mr. O'Connell
suggested, that the thing might be done by the introduction of fifteen lines into the Administration of Justice bill.

§ Mr. Spring Rice
hoped, that this point would be postponed for future consideration. At all events, he trusted that they would not resort to the Irish mode of legislating in the Irish Parliament, namely, the introduction of clauses into bills with which they had no earthly connexion whatever. On one occasion, in a Salt Act which was passed by the Irish Parliament, a clause was introduced into it to allow the Dean and Chapter of Limerick to dispose of the deanery house in that city.

§ Mr. Ruthven
begged to call the attention of Government to the fact, that property in the hands of Corporations, which had been bequeathed for charitable purposes, was often appropriated to other uses than what the owners intended.

§ Mr. Ruthven
bore testimony to the great merits of this Institution, and stated, that the subscriptions for the support of it had considerably increased in Belfast and its neighbourhood.

Mr. Hume
said, that this was one of the Estimates which had met with the unanimous approval of the Finance Committee, and he would give it his support.

§ Mr. Spring Rice
said, that the apparent reduction in this Estimate was 3,400l.; but the real reduction was that sum minus 1,109l., which was an old debt that had been recovered against this Board, and which they had been obliged to pay.

Mr. Hume
hoped that, even if they should not be able to get rid of the office of Lord Lieutenant by next year, that still his Majesty's Government would be enabled to reduce this vote much more by that time.

Mr. O'Connell
said, that his hon. friend, the member for Middlesex, by taking away the Lord Lieutenant from Ireland, would be canvassing in the very best way for the repeal of the Union.

§ Mr. Spring Rice
trusted, that next year, by the carrying into effect views which he hoped the House would adopt on the subject, the expense connected with the public works in Ireland would be greatly diminished.

Mr. Hume
said, that he was opposed to a repeal of the Union, and that was the reason why he was anxious to do away with the office of Lord Lieutenant, which was only popular in Dublin. There was no instance of delegated power being well exercised, and as he wished to give a good Government to Ireland, and to afford the Government here fair play, he was for abolishing the office of Lord Lieutenant in Ireland. If he wished for a separation, or for a repeal of the Union, he should be for maintaining that office; but as he did not, and as he was desirous to take away from his hon. friend his only real argument for a repeal of the Union, he was for abolishing the Lord-lieutenancy in that country.

§ Colonel Sibthorp
recommended a reduction of the Chief Secretary's salary, to the extent of 1,500l.

§ Mr. Spring Rice
replied, that this salary amongst others had been already submitted to a Committee above stairs, the result of whose report was a retrenchment to the amount of 20,000l., and that Committee had decided, that the salary of the Chief Secretary was no more than an adequate remuneration for the duties imposed by the office, considering the expenditure which was necessarily incurred by the functionary who filled it.

Mr. Goulburn
justified the amount of the salary alluded to, and expressed his apprehension that Ministers had already carried their plans of reduction further than in prudence they ought to have done.

Mr. Hume
thought, that Ministers deserved general approbation for the principles of sound economy on which they had acted hitherto, and he trusted that 781 they would persevere in the same system.

Mr. O'Connell
stated, that the vote for superannuations had occasioned general satisfaction throughout Ireland.

§ Mr. Lefroy
was satisfied, that one of the gentlemen superannuated, viz. Mr. Gregory, the late Irish Under-Secretary, was as efficient a public servant as ever existed. Sir Anthony Hart had also spoken of that gentleman's services in the most complimentary manner, and he was fully persuaded, that a large portion of the respectable inhabitants of Ireland entertained an equally high opinion of his character.

Mr. O'Connell
said, he was indebted to the hon. and learned Member who had just sat down for a knowledge of the influence which had guided that excellent man, the late Chancellor, in the appointment of Irish Magistrates. Those appointments had occasioned much dissatisfaction, but he was now assured that they would never have taken place, had not Sir Anthony Hart been egregiously misled by his prejudiced advisers. Mr. Gregory had always been a vehement political partizan, and as such was utterly unfit for the office which he had so unworthily occupied.

Mr. Goulburn
did not deny, that Mr. Gregory might have strong political opinions, but he would never allow, that that gentleman had been, on any occasion, unduly influenced by those opinions in the performance of his official duties. His own testimony might possibly be viewed with some distrust, but he was able to adduce the opinion of the Marquis Wellesley in corroboration of his own, and that estimable nobleman had expressed the strongest sense of the merits of Mr. Gregory, whom he described as having invariably acted with propriety and rectitude.

Mr. O'Connell
maintained, that the Government, of which the right hon. Gentleman himself was a member, had never conducted the administration of Ireland with impartiality. They were impartial only in the sense of the Mayor of Limerick, who contended that it was impartiality which induced him to billet as many soldiers on the Papists and as few on the Protestants as he could in the exercise of his magisterial discretion. Who could deny, that that Government was partial in the most offensive sense of the word, when they had kept in regular 782 pay, with the public money, the most flagitious, truculent, and abominable party press that ever disgraced the literature of any civilized country on the globe? He owned frankly, that he, as well as Mr. Gregory, was a particular partizan; but the difference between their cases was this—he was not in an official station, whereas Mr. Gregory united the characters of placeman and partizan in his own person.

§ Mr. Spring Rice
deprecated the irrelevant personalities which had been introduced into the discussion.

Mr. Goulburn
said, he was entitled to be exculpated from the charge of bringing forward personalities, as he had only risen to vindicate a dear friend from the aspersions which had been directed against him from other quarters.

§ Lord Althorp
observed, that no one there was disposed to prevent him from doing so.

§ Sir Henry Hardinge
also deposed to the excellent conduct of Mr. Gregory, so far as he had had an opportunity of judging, and believed that all his successors in office entertained the same sentiments of that gentleman, so far as their own personal experience would enable them to form an opinion.

Colonel Conolly
spoke in similar terms, and added, that the Marquis Wellesley, when leaving office, had offered to recommend Mr. Gregory for a baronetcy or a seat in the Privy Council.

§ Sir John Newport
was convinced, that Mr. Gregory's conduct had been that of a political partizan. No partizan ought to fill the office that gentleman held, and he heartily rejoiced that Mr. Gregory had retired. His opinions on the subject were the opinions of a majority of the people of Ireland.

§ Sir George Murray
was convinced of the necessity of having impartial persons in the public departments of Government in Ireland. He had had opportunities of seeing and knowing Mr. Gregory's conduct, and believed him to be a most honourable and impartial man. He knew that Lord Anglesey entertained a similar opinion of Mr. Gregory.

§ Mr. Lambert
knew, that Mr. Gregory was a partial man. He had known an instance of a recommendation sent to Mr. Gregory by certain Magistrates, to dismiss a policeman for committing a gross outrage, which was neglected. The Magis- 783 trates of Wexford then held a public meeting, and again recommended the dismissal; but the man, whose name was Lock, was still in the police. The man on whom the policeman committed the outrage was a Catholic, and the policeman was an Orangeman. Knowing this circumstance, he could not allow the panegyric on Mr. Gregory to pass uncontradicted.

§ Mr. Spring Rice
said, the time was come, when the House was pledged to go into the motion of the hon. member for Aldborough (Mr. Sadler).