§ Mr. Spring Ricesaid, he had the honour to introduce the Irish Estimates to the House. They had been framed with the greatest attention to economy, and he hoped they were not liable to many objections. It was in contemplation to introduce measures which he hoped would be attended by a considerable saving, but they were not able to carry them into effect immediately. The first vote he should propose was, 5,794l. for the Protestant Charter Schools in Ireland for 1831. The Committee would observe that there was a considerable reduction in this vote, as last year the sum proposed was 8,950l.
Mr. Humeasked when these grants were likely to cease; he had the strongest objection to these schools, which tended to promote religious animosities.
§ Mr. Spring Riceintimated, that it was proposed first to reduce this grant to 3,000l., and soon to cause its cessation altogether. It was in a state of gradual reduction; a few years since, the amount was 40,000l.—
Mr. O'Connellsaid, the houses and buildings now occupied by these schools were purchased with the public money. If they were to be broken up, care ought to be taken to secure the buildings, and not allow the trustees to have them.
§ Vote agreed to.
§ On proposing 27,824l. for the Foundling Hospital,
§ Mr. Spring Ricestated, that this vote also was in course of gradual reduction, with a view to its abolition as early as possible.
§ Mr. Ruthvenfelt some regret at hearing these grants were to be gradually reduced. 422 The poor people in Ireland had no other resource than these charities; they had no Poor-laws to fly to.
Mr. Humesaid, the whole principles of Foundling Hospitals wore bad; they inculcated bad habits, and fostered immorality. They induced the poor to look on them as asylums for their children, and thus made them indifferent to the consequences of their conduct. They were the resources of bad governments; Scotland required no such grants. They ought, by all means, to encourage feelings of self-reliance and habits of forethought in the lower orders, which such institutions had a direct tendency to counteract. He was glad to hear the grant was reduced.
Mr. O'Connellconcurred with his hon. friend that the principles on which such institutions were founded were bad. The mortality in them was frightful, and he feared the consequences were made worse by the salaries and allowances to the nurses not being regularly paid. He should recommend hon. Members to read the reports; the deaths were so numerous as to be hardly credible.
§ Mr. Spring Ricesaid, the delay of the payment of the salaries was caused by the time taken to prepare the Estimates.
§ Lord Granville Somersetsaid, it was the general feeling of the Committee to whom the whole subject was referred, that the grants should be gradually abolished. It was only on account of the children already in the asylums, that the grant was not instantly discontinued. If the children were not humanely treated, the trustees and overlookers of the institution were to blame.
Mr. O'Connellhad strong reasons for believing, that the nurses treated the children intrusted to them with the utmost kindness. There were many instances of the children retaining the strongest attachment through life to them.
Mr. Humesaid, it appeared, notwithstanding the recommendation of the Committee, that children were admitted last year. This was wholly improper, and a neglect of duty in the late Government; the resolution was, "that the Committee recommend that all admissions of children to the Foundling Hospital shall cease and determine after the 1st of January, 1830."
§ Vote agreed to.
§ Mr. Spring Rice moved "That 21,200l. be granted for the House of Industry, Dublin, the Lunatic Department, and 423 three General Hospitals attached." There had been a reduction in this grant, since last year, of 1,800l., and he hoped still further ones would be made, particularly in the salaries.
Mr. Humeconsidered, that the people of Dublin ought to pay all the expense of these local charities, but if the public were to subscribe to support local institutions, hospitals, on a good footing, were the best that could be supported.
§ Vote agreed to.
§ Mr. Spring Ricesaid, the next resolution was, "That 1,388l. be granted for the Richmond Lunatic Asylum."—The expenses of this institution had been reduced this year 5,312l., the last year's estimate being 6,700l.
Mr. O'Connellregretted very much to see these grants reduced. Many charitable institutions would be discontinued in consequence. The assumed saving was, after all, a mere transfer, the expense being saved to the public, but thrown upon the starving peasantry of Ireland. These grants had been given to compensate in some degree the loss occasioned by so many absentees, and others, who were compelled to attend their duty in England, and there spent much of their revenues.
§ Mr. Spring Ricesaid, however the hon. and learned Member's remarks might apply in general, they did not apply to this institution in particular; it was a local charity, and its benefits confined to a particular district.
§ Vote agreed to.
§ Mr. Spring Ricesaid, the next resolution was, "That 6,323l., be granted for the Hibernian Society for Soldiers' Children." A reduction of 1,273l. had been made since last year, in this grant. There were formerly 800 children in the school, there were now 500, and they proposed to reduce the number to 300, which would allow of still further reductions.
§ Mr. Leaderregretted, that the orphans of soldiers, who had fought the battles of their country, were to be deprived of the benefits they enjoyed by means of this institution.
Mr. Humesaid, the children of artizans had as much right to be maintained by the State as the children of soldiers. This institution could not, however, be abolished in Ireland, while a similar one was kept up in England, but he hoped the grants for both would be discontinued.
Mr. O'Counellsaid, the children of Catholics were only admitted into these schools on the understanding, that they were to be educated as Protestants. He hoped some explanation would be given if this was really so.
§ Mr. Spring Ricesaid, he was not aware of that particular circumstance, but he must observe, that, as the expense of supporting the orphan children was borne by the State, and as it was obvious they must have some religious education, it would follow, that the only one that could be given them was that founded on the religion of the State.
Mr. O'Connellsaid, the Catholic relations of these orphan children objected to send them to the school, where they knew they would be educated as Protestants. This led to their total exclusion. If the Protestant religion was that of the State, the Catholic religion was that of the great majority of the Irish people, and the exclusive system had a pernicious influence on their minds.
§ Sir George Murraysaid, the exclusive system had been much relaxed. The children were now allowed to be apprenticed to Catholic masters, although he acknowledged the school was still under the superintendence of a clergyman of the Established Church; but the children of both persuasions were similarly treated in every respect.
§ Sir Henry Hardingecould also assure the House that the children of Catholics and Protestants were placed on the same footing.
Mr. O'Connellsaid, the system altogether was what he complained of. The Protestant soldier's child was educated in his father's religion, the Catholic in what was called the State religion.
§ Vote agreed to.
§ The next vote was, "That 1,268l. be granted for the Hibernian Marine Society.
§ Mr. Spring Ricesaid, the grant had been reduced 132l. since last year.
Mr. Humerecommended that this vote should be withdrawn as speedily as was compatible with justice to those who happened to be at present on the institution. There were considerable abuses connected with it. The children educated there, were not those for whose benefit it was intended, and the expenses besides were far too large for the number maintained.
§ Mr. Spring Ricereplied, that all admissions 425 were to be stopped for the future, as it was in the contemplation of Government to anticipate the hon. Member's suggestion.
§ Vote agreed to.
§ The votes,
§ 1,291l. for the Female Orphan House;
§ 2,9001. for the Westmoreland Lock Hospital;
§ 2,000l. for the Lying-in Hospital;
§ 1,5781. for Dr. Stephen's Hospital;
§ 2,8601. for the Fever Hospital, Cork-street, Dublin; and
§ 4651. for the Hospital for Incurables, were agreed to without opposition.
§ The House resumed.