SUPPLY—ORDNANCE. (Hansard, 13 April 1831)

Sir Henry Fane
expressed his satisfaction at the candour with which the hon. Gentleman had done justice to the former Board of Ordnance, in acknowledging its economy.

§ Sir Henry Hardinge
approved of the arrangements proposed, and complimented the hon. Member on the clearness of his statement. The hon. Gentleman had admitted, as he understood, that the whole actual saving made by the present Board was only 3,000l. The other apparent diminution arose from the balances in hand, and from the Ordnance Board not requiring so many stores as had been formerly required, and from works having been suspended. There was, in point of fact, no important reduction of the expense of that office. He objected to the abolition of the office of Lieutenant-general of the Ordnance, and declared that, in the appointment of Major-general Cockburn to be Inspector-General of the Marines, the present Government had followed the example of the late Government; which, out of office, the present Ministers had condemned. They had objected also to the late Board of Ordnance being all military men, and they had appointed to the Board of Admiralty, even to the Secretary, none but naval men. Out of office, too, they had reproached the late Ministers with not attending to the recommendation of the Finance Committee; and in office they had positively declared, no longer than last night, that they could not follow such recommendation.

§ Mr. Tennyson
repeated his previous statements with respect to the total amount of diminished charges and saving upon the present Estimate. He denied that the right hon. and gallant Member was correct in describing the saving as being only 3,000l. —the right hon. Gentleman might just as well have asserted that it did not exceed 3l. He (Mr. Tennyson) thought that the details into which he had before entered must have satisfied the Committee that the actual saving would be, rating it at the lowest, 100,000l., if not 166,000l.

§ Sir H. Hardinge
denied that a diminution of charge for a single year could be considered a saving, for it was merely 1308 abstaining from doing in 1831 what would be done in 1832, and without benefit to the public. He repeated, therefore, that the saving was only 3,000l. and cautioned the hon. Gentleman on the danger of allowing the Ordnance establishments, which were purely scientific, to go to decay; for if he did let them down, he would not find it easy to raise them up again.

Sir H. Fane
wished to draw the attention of the Committee to one very important point, because it, was connected with the efficiency of the Navy. The sum of 53,000l. was called for on account of repairs. Now he doubted the adequacy of that sum, because he understood that a most experienced and intelligent officer had stated, that there were, at present, no less than 10,000 naval gun-carriages out of repair, and for which he could not answer. Situated as Europe was at present, this was a matter of most serious importance.

Mr. Hume
censured the plan which Government had long adopted, of collecting large quantities of stores to perish and decay. Here it appeared, from the statement of the hon. Baronet, that there were 10,000 rotten gun-carriages in store. The saving proposed in these Estimates by his Majesty's Government were, he was sorry to say, very trifling, but he trusted that they would be greater hereafter. The whole expenditure under this head was manifestly too large, considering the situation of the country.

Sir H. Fane
denied, that he had spoken of rotten gun-carriages. He said it was reported that a most experienced officer had represented that there were 10,000 gun-carriages which were out of repair.

§ Lord Althorp
contended, in opposition to the gallant Officer (Sir H. Hardinge), that a very considerable saving had been really effected in these Estimates. He certainly considered the not calling for a grant, on account of certain works, as a saving. Some of those works might hereafter be deemed unnecessary.

§ Sir H. Hardinge
only wished to observe, that a greater saving had been made under the Duke of Wellington. In the salaries of civil officers alone, it was 47,000l. The number of stations now was only one or two more than in 1792, though we had now seven or eight powder-magazines included amongst them.

§ Mr. Maberly
said, that the late Government had acted in the teeth of the Report of the Committee of Finance, which had 1309 recommended the abolition of the office of Lieutenant-general of the Ordnance. The present Government immediately abolished the situation, and yet it was admitted the service was as well carried on without that office as with it.

§ Sir H. Hardinge
said, the recommendation of the Committee was contrary to the evidence given before them.

§ Sir G. Warrender
admitted and praised the economy of the present Government, and said, that the conduct of the late Administration, in resisting reductions which had been recommended to them, brought about that measure of Reform which he so much deprecated.

§ Mr. Tennyson
said, that the present Government had not begun the Ordnance Estimates. They had only reviewed them. When they should have an opportunity of forming estimates of their own, a greater reduction might be expected.