HC Deb 27 May 1830 vol 24 cc1172-88

The Attorney General moved the further consideration of the Report on the Bill for the better Administration of Justice in England and Wales.

Mr. Edward Davenport

said, he was surprised, when he reflected that this Bill had been framed by a learned Gentleman, who had passed the greater part of his political life on the Opposition benches. So far as the wants and wishes of the people were consulted by that Bill it might have been drawn up by the Grand Vizier, and would then have been quite as well adapted to the people as the Bill that had been drawn up by the King's Attorney General. What did this Bill do? In the first place, it multiplied all the difficulties which the inhabitants of the county of Chester and the Welch counties now complained of, and it changed the character of their system of judicature. He should have been quite ready if the Bill had been for the advantage of Chester, to waive his objections to a great many clauses of it; but the objections instead of being obviated after remonstrance had been made, had been multiplied, and this Bill was an exacerbation of the original measure objectionable as that was. He objected to the Bill altogether, and let the House observe what it proposed to do. With respect to the county of Chester, it proposed to put an end to, and annihilate at one blow, all the judicial rights and privileges enjoyed by its inhabitants for eight centuries, and that without any complaint having been made, or one petition having been presented against their rights; while plenty of petitions had appeared in their favour. In the preamble of the Bill it was distinctly stated, that "whereas it is expedient to put an end to the separate judicature of the county of Chester." That was the preamble; but the Bill did not prove, nor had it been proved, that it would be expedient to put an end to that separate judicature; and he required something better to prove the expediency of that than the ipse dixit of the hon. and learned Gentleman. The inhabitants of the county of Chester (one of the first in commercial importance), amounting to near 400,000, did not consider it expedient to put an end to their ancient and present system of judicature. On the contrary they had petitioned against the Bill; and not only the county of Chester, but the great towns in the vicinity—Liverpool, Lancaster, and Warrington, containing nearly 300,000 inhabitants, had also petitioned against it. What was the system to be substituted? He wished to inform the House that this was a question of rights; not like the last—merely a question of expenditure of the public money, during the discussion of which, nearly every Member in the House was engaged in conversation. The system proposed to be substituted was that prevailing in England, which, on account of its delays and expenses, excited so much disgust. It was that system, the evils of which were so truly stated by the hon. and learned Gentleman, the member for Knaresborough, when he introduced the subject of legal reform, and pointed out his views of the remedy to be applied. His speech was received with approbation by every one who heard it; and the sentiments of which he had no doubt, would ere long be generally adopted. Before the hon. and learned Attorney General introduced this Bill to change the system of judicature in the county of Chester, he should have waited until the reforms proposed to be introduced in the law of England were carried into effect. The new system of law which he wished to introduce into the county of Chester, had not that which is the origin of all law—the consent and acquiescence of the people. In fact they were against it. He wished to know why the County Palatine of Chester had been selected for this experiment, or why the other Counties Palatine had been passed over? Why was not Durham included? Had the Bishop rights there, which could not be touched without difculty? but this reason did not apply to the County Palatine of Lancaster. The Bishop had nothing to do with that; and there was no reason, as it appeared to him, for leaving that county untouched. No reason had been stated why this Bill should spare the other Counties Palatine, and attack the county of Chester. The Bill was founded on the erroneous idea that Chester was assimilated to Wales, and had no analogy or resemblance to Lancashire in its institutions; whereas the direct converse was the fact, as had been proved to the Attorney General who, however, did not alter his Bill. As far as he understood that Bill, it did not introduce the slightest improvement; all the proposed changes were objectionable; and no grounds had been stated by the hon. and learned Gentleman for making them. It was merely sic volo, sic jubeo, stat pro ratione voluntas. So many of the enactments of the Bill were objectionable, that he was at a loss to know to which part of it. first to apply his objections. The facility and expedition with which writs are now obtained in actions for debt, in the county of Chester, would be lost by this Bill. Though he was no friend to the principle of Arrest for Debt, yet while the law sanctioned Arrests they ought to be executed with facility. It was of importance at all events, to the inhabitants of the county of Chester, that they should be able to obtain writs with as little difficulty as if they lived in the county of Middlesex. It was also most important, that when parties resorted to actions at law, many months should not elapse between the commencement of those actions and going to trial. That advantage was possessed by the inhabitants of Chester. The Courts there were always open; whilst proceedings in the Courts at Westminster were often impeded by long holi- days. The people of Chester were also exempted from the delays which took place under the English system, between the period of obtaining a verdict and issuing an execution; delays which enabled fraudulent defendants to assign over their property, and cheat their creditors. Then with respect to persons bailed by the law of the Counties Palatine, they were allowed to surrender in their own counties, instead of coming up to London at a great expense. These changes might seem to some persons of small importance; but the inhabitants of the county of Chester did not think them so, and he was therefore justified in objecting to them in detail. Amongst other matters the law of Ejectment was considerably altered. Under the present system if a tenant refused to quit his holding pursuant to notice,—say on 2nd of February,—he might be ejected in the month of April. By this Bill, however, he could not be ejected until the following November. That was a difference of six months, which would enable the tenant, if fraudulently disposed, to ruin the estate, carry the crops away, and run off himself, leaving no remedy to the landlord but an appeal to the Court of King's Bench, when the injury was done and could not be repaired. The landlord therefore might lose the produce of his land for one year. There was also a Court of Equity in the county of Chester, which this Bill proposed to abolish without any evidence of complaint having been made against it, unless such evidence could be found in the negative objection that it had not much business. Perhaps the people of Chester were not so litigious as the inhabitants of other parts of the kingdom: but at all events, when they found it necessary to resort to a Court of Equity, they were able to obtain justice at one-third the expense at which it was obtained in England, and in one third of the time. In the recovery of small debts, the people of Chester would find themselves in a much worse situation, for the Sheriffs Court was also to be abolished. Another objection was, that a gaol which cost the county 150,000l. and which was unfortunately not half large enough, might be placed under the superintendence of Welch Magistrates, which was neither very convenient nor very agreeable. Accommodation too must be provided for the Judges, at an expense of 10,000l. These matters might seem trivial to some Gentle- men, but pro tanto they were grievances, and deserving of consideration. The most galling circumstance of all, however to the people of Cheshire, was their being united with two Welch counties. He was sure that his hon. friends, the members for Denbigh and Flint, would not consider that anything disrespectful was meant towards their counties, for they were as little disposed to acquiesce in this unnatural union as the Cheshire people. The Sheriff according to this Bill, was to be Sheriff of three counties; and his responsibilities and his duties were to be increased in proportion. He thanked the House for the indulgence with which it had heard him, and concluded by moving as an Amendment, "that the Report be received that day six months."

Mr. Wilbraham

meant to confine the few observations he was about to make entirely to the operation of the Bill on the county of Chester, with which he was particularly connected. The Bill went to alter the whole machinery connected with the Administration of Justice in that great commercial county. The Courts established there had, for many centuries, independent rights, and were not identified with the Courts of Westminster-hall. They possessed as ample a jurisdiction in the county of Chester as any of the Courts at Westminster in any part of England. Having existed so long, it was not surprising that they should want some little amendment; and his hon. friend, who had just addressed the House, must admit that they required reform in various particulars. In the course of time they had acquired various defects, like the other courts in the kingdom. He would not enter into a detail of those defects, but undoubtedly amongst the advantages of the system, some defects had blended themselves, and become parts of it. In some points therefore, reform was necessary; and he would not say that no advantage could be derived from the changes proposed by the Bill. He considered that it would be a great advantage to have the Judges from Westminster-hall to preside in the Courts of Cheshire. It was notorious that the Chief Justice of Chester had generally been appointed from different motives, and upon different principles from those acted upon in the appointment of other Judges. In this point of view, therefore, there would be a decided advantage to the county of Chester; but he was far from thinking that it would be advisable to annihilate its Courts altogether, and amalgamate the peculiar judicature of that county with the general system. The inhabitants of Cheshire had a right to ask for the retention of the peculiar advantages of which they were in possession. It might be said that if this system of judicature in the county of Chester had peculiar advantages, why not extend it to other counties? That was a point which the people of Chester had no power to press; but they considered that the law-officers of England should begin by making the English system of law more advantageous and intelligible, before they forced it upon other people. For his part he was not opposed to the principle of the measure, and perhaps it might be altered and remodelled, so as to render it less objectionable. He must, however, candidly confess, that the people of the county of Chester wished to retain their own peculiar institutions. If it were wished to conciliate them, it might be effected by modifying some of the most objectionable clauses. Under that hope, he would not presume to say with that understanding,—but with a hope grounded on the reasonableness of the request made by the inhabitants of Chester, he would not give any opposition to the measure in its present stage, as he agreed with the principle of the Bill. If he found at a future stage that the Bill destroyed the peculiar rights and privileges of the county of Chester, and that no alteration was made in it, if the objectionable clauses were retained, he should certainly vote against it. As to the proposition to unite Cheshire to the Welch counties, it was most objectionable. The reasons given against it were so good and so conclusive, that he should add nothing. The decided difference between the manners, habits, customs, and language of the people, formed in his opinion, an insuperable objection; and he trusted that the hon. and learned Gentleman, in opposition to the wishes of all parties, would not seek to put together those whom God and nature had separated.

The Attorney General

said, that his object was to accomplish what he was persuaded would prove a great national benefit, with as little opposition as possible, and therefore his aim had been, to remove from the Bill, as far as possible, everything to which objection might be taken. In doing that, however, it was scarcely to be expected that he could conciliate every person, and at the same time be governed by those principles which he considered essential to the value of the measure, and calculated to promote its success. He certainly did not imagine, that by the unaided and native force of genius, he could accomplish all that the hon. Gentleman opposite seemed to suppose himself capable of effecting, and therefore he had endeavoured to avail himself of the suggestions of others as far as he possibly could, for he candidly confessed he did not, like some Gentlemen, entertain an exalted opinion of his own talents. As the Bill had been printed, and was in the hands of hon. Members, it would not be necessary for him to enter into minute explanations of its several clauses; but, once and for all, he begged the House to understand that the Bill was one combined measure; that the addition of the Welsh Circuit made the appointment of new Judges necessary in Westminster-hall, seeing that the business of the Principality was transferred to the Metropolis, and that new regulations were required by those alterations in the Courts. It was evident, therefore, that the whole was essentially one combined measure. The House, too, would see that no clauses were introduced except such as were necessary for carrying the objects contemplated into effect, or such as seemed naturally to grow out of them. He presumed, that were the principle of those alterations once conceded, there would be no doubt that the additional Judges were necessary; for not only would they be required for going Circuit, but it would be necessary also that one of them should always be in London. Those Judges would be necessary for the increased facility and despatch of business, which it was one of the objects of the measure to afford, and which, from the additional labour and increased impediments, would have been defeated but for that precaution. He should now advert to the clauses respecting arrest upon mesne process; he had fixed it at a sum of 100l. and he felt bound to declare thus early, that in principle he could not abandon those clauses. He was free to acknowledge that he should have had no objection to go further, but he had some respect for the opinions of others—he did not think his own powers all-sufficient—he attached some value to the labours and information of other men; but though he did so, he found it impos- sible to accommodate the clause to the views of every one. Some thought it went too far and some thought it did not go far enough—and he became, therefore, the more induced to adhere to his former views, finding that he could not reconcile all the difficulties which presented themselves. He was the more anxious to afford this explanation, as a deputation from the trades of London and Westminster had done him the honour to wait on him, and make representations upon the subject, to which he felt bound to pay attention, and in consequence of which he introduced the clause allowing of a distringas; and which had also induced him to adopt a course respecting another part of the Bill, which he hoped would meet with the approbation of the House. There were some of the clauses which he proposed to withdraw from the committee, intending to give them more mature consideration, and introduce them in the form of a separate bill, or else lay them before the House on the bringing up of the report, so as to make them the subject of a separate discussion, and not mix them up with the other clauses of the Bill. There were none of those clauses which he so intended to withdraw, respecting which he did not intend to reserve to himself the right of bringing them forward again, either in the manner he had mentioned, or next Session, in the form of a separate bill. The hon. and learned Gentleman then entered into the statement of the existing regulations and practice of the Welsh Courts, and contrasting their past state with what he anticipated their future condition would be. The Welsh Courts, he said, were cumbrous and expensive machines; they held ten sittings in each assize town—they hurried through causes with unseemly rapidity, allowing no chance either for compromise or accommodation, and, above all, they were different from the English Courts. Now the principal object he had in view by that Bill, was to put all the Courts in England and Wales on the same footing, and in drawing it up he had the assistance, the valuable assistance, of the hon. member for Rippon, (Mr. Spence.) He pressed upon the attention of the House the necessity of amalgamating the different Courts of the kingdom, and then proceeded to answer the objection made relative to defendants rendering in discharge of bail. To meet that objection he had altered one of the clauses, by which a defendant might be rendered at the gaol of the county in which he resided as readily as at any of the Courts at Westminster—thus the advantages enjoyed by Chester and by Wales would be continued to those districts, and extended to the rest of the country. Another objection had been get rid of by introducing a clause allowing execution to issue within seven days after obtaining a judgment, unless security were given; and he was happy to be able to say that in introducing that clause he had acted agreeably to the recommendations of the commissioners for inquiring into the law. The Bill, he contended, would give increased facilities for obtaining judgment, and issuing execution on application to a Judge. The learned and hon. Gentleman showed that it would be advantageous to landlords in the protection which it afforded against spoliation and waste; while creditors, from the advantages it gave them, would find themselves in a better situation than before. These were, he trusted, sufficient answers to those Gentlemen who opposed the Bill because it would injure the inhabitants of Chester. They would find that the ground of their objections was removed by the new clauses he had introduced. He then noticed the extreme horror which some of the Welsh counties seemed to entertain of being combined with others, pointing out at the same time the advantage which that combination would secure to them of enjoying the services of a more enlightened Jury and a more numerous and better-qualified bar. If it would be the means of preventing opposition (though he had no great hopes of that,) he should have no objection to introduce a clause to make it incumbent on the Judges to go to the different counties where the assizes were appointed to be held, and subsequently to meet at Chester. The hon. and learned Gentleman concluded by moving that the Speaker leave the Chair.

Sir C. Wetherell

said, that the Bill, when he first saw it, was but the skeleton of a bill. It was now considerably altered; that was to say, limbs had been amputated, and features had been added, so as completely to change its appearance; and what with the additions which had been tagged on, and what with the parts which had been detruncated, it was quite something else from what it had originally been. It seemed to him to be chiefly divided into three parts—the appointment of new Judges in Westminster Hall; the raising the liability of arrest to 100l. and the abolition of the Welsh Judicature. In a great measure he thought the Bill objectionable; and he should therefore vote against it, till this great boon, which, he supposed, was what had been so pompously held out in the Speech from the Throne, at the commencement of the Session, was put into a somewhat more palatable shape, as far as the public was concerned. He thought that the proposed rise in the standard of arrest was so large, that instead of its being hurried on in this way, at the close of the Session, it ought to have been announced long previously, so as to afford an opportunity of collecting the sentiments of those most interested in the alteration. With respect to the appointment of new Judges, as the Judges themselves were of opinion that it ought to take place, and as the Welsh Judicature was to be done away with, that measure, perhaps, was the least objectionable of the three. He, however, could not understand the principle upon which Parliament was called upon to legislate on this subject. One hon. and learned Gentleman, who wanted to have the law of England altered, proposed to do it by consolidation, while the Attorney General, in altering the law of Wales, wanted to do it on the plan of division and subdivision. He would not take upon himself to pronounce which of the two was right; but this he would say, that one must be wrong. He objected to the arrangement of the counties being left to the King in Council; that arrangement ought to be definitively settled by the provisions of the Bill itself. As proposed at present, there was to be a power in the Crown to consolidate the counties, and a power in the Crown, pro hâc vice, to appoint the Sheriff. If it was proposed to join Carmarthen to the nearest English county, and so on, he should be able to understand it; but as now managed, a man was never to know to what country he belonged. The whole of this arrangement of counties appeared to him to be so anomalous, that he did not hesitate to say that it was directly unconstitutional. It was not even fixed when the change should take place; but the whole appeared to be left to the hand of chance, or to the good providence of God knows who. This arrangement might be altered at pleasure too; and the consequence would be, that he who was an Englishman one day might be a Cambrian the next, and the individual himself would be quite puzzled to say "to what country he belonged." Colchus an Assyrius, Thebis nutritus an Argis. There was another part of the Bill which was still more objectionable—the alteration in the Courts of Equity in Wales. He had often heard the Welsh Judges abused in that House; but he might observe that the Welsh Courts of Equity had never been found fault with; and in all his experience as a lawyer, he had never known but two cases brought from those Courts on Appeal to the House of Lords. He could not sec what necessity there was for bringing up all the business of Wales to the Court of Exchequer. He should be sorry, however, to oppose any alteration, if something like an intelligible bill could be introduced. This Bill, certainly, was not of that description; and, unless some more efficient and unobjectionable plan should be proposed, he could not give it his support. He pledged himself to watch those sham changes in the law, which were calculated to do any thing but promote the ends of justice; and unless the Bill were completely altered in the committee, he should resist it in all its stages.

Mr. Davies Davenport

opposed the Bill. The great complaint against the law of this country was its expense; and it appeared to him that the present measure was rather calculated to increase than diminish that.

Mr. Sadler

wished to say a few words on this occasion, chiefly because he had been intrusted with the presentation of a Petition against the measure now under consideration, from a most important town in the county of Chester, the populous town of Macclesfield. He intended to present that petition this evening, but had not an opportunity of doing so; he therefore begged to state that the inhabitants of Macclesfield were decidedly against the measure, and no parties were more deeply interested in its progress. Their petition ought to be attended to; and on such a subject the humblest petition which came from the county, or the smallest remonstrance which it sent forth, on a subject of vital consequence to its interests, ought to receive the most serious consideration. All the large towns in the great and wealthy county of Chester were opposed to the Bill. It was not to be supposed for one moment, that the well- informed, and well-disposed inhabitants of that county, could be mistaken on a matter so nearly affecting their interest. They wanted naturally enough to know what they were to receive, before they consented to an alteration in their ancient system. It would be presumption for him to go minutely into the discussion of the measure, since the subject had been so ably handled by the hon. and learned Gentleman near him. But he begged to make a few remarks with respect to those individuals whose petition he had not yet presented. They knew their own interests, and they felt that, under the general administration of justice in this country, those interests were safe; 'but when he found that the Grand Jury and Magistrates of the county had petitioned against the Bill, that the large town of Macclesfield, one of the most important places in the county of Chester, rejected this measure—when he observed that the voice of the people was decidedly against receiving a boon of this sort, the House ought to look with great suspicion at the measure. Let it take care, lest by its negligence it committed an injustice, when it intended to confer a benefit. He heard, with surprise, his Majesty's Attorney-General speak, not of individual prejudices, but of county prejudices. How many counties were there in this kingdom? and where were their prejudices to be seen? The parties who would be affected by this measure, spoke of those alterations without that feeling of animosity which the hon. and learned Gentleman supposed to exist. In his opinion, the amalgamations which the hon. and learned Gentleman proposed, ought to be clearly and distinctly pointed out. Nothing should be left to doubt or conjecture, and for the House to allow the alteration to be made by his Majesty's Ministers was not consistent with the constitution of this country, and the feelings of the people. It was placing far too much confidence in the administration. The whole of the hon. and learned Gentleman's intentions ought to be plainly and distinctly stated. The country ought to understand his proposition thoroughly. Something very convincing might perhaps have been said in favour of this Bill before he came into the House; but he had heard very little to induce him to support it. The people wished for cheap and expeditious justice—they wished to have it carried to their doors, these were the main points to which they looked. They did not ask for the increase of law-officers; it was not to serve a purpose of that kind that an alteration in our system should be attempted, but solely for the purpose of satisfying the country at large. When the population of. the rich and extensive county of Chester arrayed themselves against this measure, there were strong grounds why Parliament should ponder long before it gave this Bill the force of law. The hon. and learned Gentleman observed, that some part of the local jurisdiction of the county Palatine of Lancaster ought to be reformed. Why then did he not proceed to reform the palatinate jurisdiction of that county? That which he wished to alter, was the oldest palatinate jurisdiction in this country. It had lasted for the greater part of a thousand years. If the hon. and learned Gentleman dealt with one, let him also deal with all. Let him reform the jurisdiction of Durham and of Lancaster, as well as of Chester. This would be fair, especially at the moment when an attempt was made to assimilate the general law of the land. There was no reason why a particular favour should be conceded to the palatinate jurisdiction in those counties, merely on account of its being so ancient (and certainly they had no other claim), while, in the case of Chester, that species of claim was set aside. There were other parts of the Bill to which he entertained serious constitutional objections. He thought that a whole and entire system, reformed and improved throughout, ought to be introduced, in order that those whose peculiar customs were to be sacrificed should know what they were to receive in return; that those whose long-exercised and deeply-cherished rights were to be set aside by these projected alterations, should be made perfectly acquainted with the situation in which they were hereafter to stand. As to that portion of the measure which related to the law of arrest, he objected strongly to it. Though far from advocating harsh or cruel proceedings, in cases of this nature, still he wished that the honest creditor should receive proper protection. But how did this new provision effect that? It gave the great and rich creditor an advantage, while it took from the small and poor creditor his chief protection. He to whom a thousand pounds were due might arrest his debtor; but the poor creditor, to whom a debtor owed less than a hundred pounds, could not reach him. He had less remedy than the rich man, though the smaller sum was probably of greater importance to him than the larger was to the wealthy man. It was wrong, that the poor man should be placed in such a situation, and it would appear especially so when it was recollected that the rich man was less liable to give credit, or be seriously injured by losses. He was of opinion, that a very narrow and contracted view had been taken of the whole subject. The Petition which he meant to lay on the table spoke the unanimous opinion of one of the most important towns in the kingdom, the inhabitants of which had honoured him by intrusting it to his hands; and he called on the House to recollect, that it was dealing with ancient rights, with rights long exercised, and still deeply cherished, and which the petitioners earnestly prayed they might be allowed to retain. The Bill gave to the petitioners nothing which they regarded as an equivalent for these rights. Such too was his opinion, and it was out of respect to that opinion that the petitioners had done him the heartfelt honour of intrusting him with their petition.

Mr. Owen

said, that the Welsh Administration of Justice required amendment, but he objected to taking away the whole Welsh jurisdiction. That, the Welsh regarded as one of their greatest privileges, to which nothing offered by that or any other bill could possibly be an equivalent.

Lord Belgrave

said, he believed that the feelings of the great majority of the inhabitants of Chester were, as the hon. Member who had already spoken, said, decidedly hostile to the measure. He was happy to hear that some of the points recommended to the consideration of the Attorney General were likely to meet his favourable consideration, and he hoped they might do something to make the Bill more palatable to the people of that county. He hoped that the hon. and learned Gentleman would not unite the large and populous county of Chester, containing 100,000 inhabitants, with the small counties in its neighbourhood. On the whole, he was glad that the Bill had been amended, but he could not yet give it more than a very languid support.

Mr. John Williams

expressed his regret that there was not time to enter into a full discussion of the measure then before the House, which he considered very important, both from its general principles, and from the local advantages it proposed to confer. He was surprised to hear the objections made by the hon. Member for Newark, more particularly as the Bill went to take from Ministers a greater quantity of patronage, which, (greatly to their credit, they gave up,) than had been resigned by any Ministers of the Crown since the Revolution. They abandoned that source of patronage, the appointing of the Welsh Judges. As he understood also there was a measure in progress which went to abolish eighteen or twenty places in Scotland, causing a great saving (though in this he was not so sanguine) to the public. He could not agree with those Gentlemen who had attacked the Bill, towards which he felt himself attracted. With regard to introducing additional Judges into the English system, he thought the state of the country, when twelve Judges were first appointed, justified that. Six hundred years ago there were twelve Judges, and now there were one hundred times as much business as at that time. At present it was impossible, with all the skill of the Judges, to keep down business in the Court of King's Bench. To force parties into another Court, as was sometimes proposed, would be as unfair and unjust, as to make them toss up for a decision. No Legislative Act could remedy this, but it might be remedied without an Act of Parliament. If his hon. and learned friend would only go into another Court,. he would carry the business with him, but a law could not carry it. The public would go to those Barristers in whom they had confidence. The Courts of Equity might be curtailed of their business by taking some of it to the Courts of Common Law. There were conflicting systems of law, and within ten minutes walk of each other in Westminster Hall. A mortgage which was not paid would, at Common Law, be foreclosed, and the estate would be forfeited; when, in Chancery, the party might have the estate reconveyed to him, and the foreclosure set aside. A Court of Common Law might, in this case, perform the function of a Court of Equity. He recommended giving to the Common Law Courts an equitable jurisdiction in such cases, instead of sending them, when they had been already heard in a Court of Common Law, to remain undecided in a Court of Equity. With reference to local alter- ations he recommended that Liverpool, Manchester, and Warrington, should have their Courts at Chester, within a few miles, instead of going sixty miles; hut the county of Chester ought to have the advantage of the Lancaster Court of Common Pleas. On the whole he supported the measure, expecting from it great improvement and great advantage to the country.

Mr. Bernal

complained of the manner in which the Bill had been brought in, and thought that it was such a mixture of different things that it must be divided into three Bills. He objected also, as there were no petitions praying for such an alteration for Wales, to taking away the local jurisdictions from that country. He was of opinion that the Bill could not well he passed this Session, and he hoped the Ministers would reconsider the measure.

Sir Robert Peel

said, that it was usually considered the most painful duty of a government to oppose reform;—but here, the greatest difficulty the Government lay under was, when they attempted to effect improvement. The object was to render law cheap and expeditious; and for such an object local distinctions ought to be sacrificed. Hon. Gentlemen, on this occasion, had altogether omitted the principle, although this was the stage for discussing it, and had involved themselves in details which would be properly considered in committee. He appealed to the House whether there were not alterations needed in the Courts here, so as to equalise the business; and if three additional Judges were necessary, what objection could the people of Wales have to the presence of these three Judges to despatch their business, instead of the present number of eight, who were gentlemen practising at the bar, and perhaps Members of that House. It should be recollected that the people of Wales had often complained that their Judges had not salaries adequate to make them independent; and this, if there were no other reason, ought to satisfy them with the appointment of independent Judges, whose time would be altogether directed to the administration of justice. He would not go into the details of the Bill, but repeated his wish that it might be allowed to go into committee.

Sir William Vaughan

declared himself hostile to the measure, in principle and in detail. He should betray his duty to the county which sent him to Parliament if he did not oppose the Bill to the utmost of his power.

Colonel Wood

had many objections to the details of the Bill, but would vote for going into a committee.

Mr. Brougham

concurred with the Home Secretary, and thought that no Member had a right to oppose the Speaker's leaving the chair on the ground of objection to details instead of principle. He asked, was there any one who was satisfied with the present number of Judges or with the present state of the Welsh Judges? Was there any one who wished that these Judges, practising at the bar, and influenced, perhaps, by political motives, should be not of the same class, of a different stamp, and of another character, from the other Judges who were to administer the laws of the land? There was a great cry throughout the land for a reform of the law, but directly the Government tried to carry any reform into execution, one Member cried out "dont touch this," anoother cried out "dont touch that;" one cautioned the Government against meddling with the ancient jurisdiction of a Principality, and another talked of the rights of a county palatinate, and if they were to go on so, all reform would turn out to be idle declamation. Hon. Members made various objections to the measure, but at all events they ought to go into the committee.

Mr. Fyshe Palmer

opposed the measure, and especially the union of Welsh and English counties. It would be better for Government to remedy the abuses of the Court of Chancery than meddle with the Welsh Judicature, which was well administered.

The question was then put and agreed to.

On the question that it be re-committed "now,"

Sir Charles Wetherell

hoped that the Attorney General would not press that stage at present.

After a conversation in which Mr. Cutlar Ferguson, Mr. C. Wynn, Mr. D. W. Harvey, and Mr. Jones, took part, the House went into Committee. Some amendments were agreed to, and the further consideration appointed for Thursday next.