QUESTION OF PRIVILEGE. (Hansard, 19 February 1830)

§ Mr. Littleton
rose, to present a petition involving a Question of the Privileges of that House. The petition was from a Knights, a representation in Parliament of the landholders or landed interest of the kingdom, and by the return of such Citizens and Burgesses a representation of the trade, and of all other interests within the realm: And whereas it has ever been considered a noble privilege which entitles the subject to a share in the Government and Legislature of the country, and such as he ought not to be denuded of by accidental or unforeseen circumstances, nor by craft and design: And whereas when the right of voting was annexed to some tenement, house, or spot of ground where a house had stood, it was never contemplated that any number of these bur-gage-tenure estates should be purchased by one person in order to be conveyed to so many of his friends or dependants, and that thereby each should have a right to vole, and that so a command of the return of Members to serve in Parliament, and a proprietary interest therein, should be obtained: And whereas in consequence of the departure from the spirit and meaning of the law, the election of Knights, Citizens, and Burgesses, is often attended with canvassing, solicitations, and even bribes, on the part of the candidate, and with scenes of drunkenness and corruption on the part of the electors, disgraceful to both parties, and highly detrimental to the community at large; and in other cases such elections are entirely under the command of a 728 well-known Attorney of great respectability at Birmingham, Mr. Thomas Eyre Lee; of whose professional employment the conduct of private business through the House of Commons was a branch. Mr. Lee stated, that having, in the month of November last, given notice in the newspapers of his intention to apply for a certain Bill in the next Session, he received a letter, dated Great George-street, and signed William Robert Sydney, informing him that the writer had entered into partnership with Mr. Daniel Whittle Harvey, as Parliamentary Agents; and that his practice and experience for several years gave him facilities in conducting Parliamentary business, which would be found very advantageous to his clients, independently of the alliance which he had formed with Mr. Harvey. The letter was franked by Mr. Harvey, and came under what appeared to be the common seal of the firm. The petitioner disclaimed all private or personal motives, but prayed that the House would take into its serious consideration whether the practice here disclosed, of Members possessing an interest in Bills which were in progress through that House, was not one which ought to be disallowed. single individual, and such individual is, in many instances, a Peer of Parliament, and thus the returns of many Citizens and Burgesses to serve in the House of Commons have become the subject of sale and barter for money, whereby any foreign prince or potentate may, by the mere power of money, and in some instances actually has, purchased for his friends or agents, seats in the House of Commons of England: And whereas all such things and doings are in direct contradiction to the spirit and meaning of the law, a disgrace and scandal to Parliament, subversive of the rights and liberties of the people, and of the just prerogative and interest of the Crown, rendering it impossible for the King to conduct the government of the country without being dependent on a system of corruption and intrigue, highly detrimental to the safety, honour, and welfare of this kingdom; and whereas the continuance of such abuses would be treason against the people and little short of treason against the King: And whereas it is highly expedient and necessary that all such abuses should be reformed, and the Commons of England restored to their due and undoubted share in the Legislature, and also that the reformation of such long existing abuses should be brought about with all due care, and in the most rational, just, and considerate manner:

§ Mr. D. W. Harvey
said, he thanked the hon. Member for Staffordshire for the candid manner in which he had yesterday evening communicated to him his intention of presenting this petition. Whatever other sentiments the House might entertain respecting the letter in question, they could not consider it defective in candour and openness. As to the petition, until he heard on the authority of the House itself that professional persons engaged in that branch of the profession to which he devoted himself were to be interdicted from pursuing the most respectable part of it, if they happened to be Members of the House of Commons, he should not believe that such was the law. He admitted frankly and at once that the statement in the letter, as it respected himself, was true. If it were declared to be contrary to the law of Parliament, no one would bow more readily than himself to that decision. But the question was one of much greater importance than as it affected him individually. The consideration of it ought to be co-existent with the consideration of a very broad species of reform. Whatever principle on the subject the House might And whereas for the accomplishment of the great ends and important objects of this Act, it is expedient that a Committee of the House of Commons be forthwith appointed in the manner, and with the powers, hereinafter mentioned: Be it therefore enacted by the King's Most Excellent Majesty, by and with the advice and consent of the Lords Spiritual and Temporal, and Commons, in this present Parliament assembled, and by the authority of the same, That immediately after the passing of this Act, and in every subsequent Session within ten days after the assembling of Parliament for the despatch of business, a Committee shall be appointed by ballot or lot in the usual manner, consisting of twenty-one Members of the Commons' House of Parliament, with full power to do all things required by this Act, and the said Committee shall be called the Reform Committee, and shall retain its power till the prorogation of the Parliament in which it shall have been appointed: That it shall be the duty of this Committee, in the first place, to order by any letter or paper writing signed by their Chairman, the Sheriffs of the different Counties, or the Returning Officer of every City and Borough in the United Kingdom, to report to the said Committee the number of Electors for the choosing of Members to sit in the House of Commons for the said City or Borough, dis- 730 think proper to recognise, no one would more cordially concur in the recognition than himself. If it should be determined that no person being a Member of a Committee of that House should have the remotest shade of interest in the business under the consideration of that Committee, in such a determination he would heartily coincide; and he was persuaded, that it would be very satisfactory to the country thus to show that no Member of a Committee could be exposed to any temptation, direct or indirect, to swerve from the line of his public duty. He apprehended, however, that no hon. Member was prepared to contend that the Committees of that House were so constituted; and he was glad the petition came when nothing had yet been done in private Committees, and, therefore, early enough to admit of the establishment of the principle which he had described; for he would defy any one to say of him that he had taken a part in any Committee, in the business before which he had the tithe of a farthing of interest. Could every Member of a Committee say as much? Men in his branch of the profession had frequently had seats in that House, continuing their practice. The late Mr. Smith, Solicitor for the tinguishing the number of resident Electors from the number of non-resident Electors, and stating the nature of the rights of voting in such City or Borough; and if necessary the said Committee shall call the said Officer before them, together with all books or papers in his possession relating to the same, and in like manner shall call before them and examine upon oath the said Officers and any other person or persons having, or claiming to have, any interest in the Election of the said Members, or any knowledge concerning the same. And whereas, certain Corporations or Corporate Bodies do possess the right of franchise by Charter, and do by virtue of the King's Writ, return Members to serve in the Commons' House of Parliament; and whereas such Corporations or Corporate Bodies were, at the time of granting such Charters and Rights of Enfranchisement, composed of the most respectable persons resident in the towns or places to which such Corporations or Corporate Bodies belong, and the members of such Corporations or Corporate Bodies were for the most part chosen or elected into office by the Inhabitants of such towns or places, out of the most discreet and respectable of the townsmen or inhabitants of such towns or places: And whereas, by the lapse of time and from other causes, many of such towns and places have fallen into decay, and abuses have taken place in the mode of election of such 731 Treasury, was a Member of that House. Mr. Jones, formerly Solicitor to the Commissioners of Woods and Forests, was a Member of that House. Would any one say that they had no right to pursue their general practice? If so, the same might be said of the Attorney and Solicitor-General. The profits of the Attorney and Solicitor-General, as compared with the profits of a member of his branch of the profession, were exceedingly great. Having been paid for drawing a bill, they nevertheless felt no hesitation in afterwards coming down to the House, and deliberating and dividing upon it. If it should be established as a principle that no Member of that House could be a Member of a Committee on a matter in which he had the remotest interest, that principle the public and the House would perfectly understand. He, for one, should rejoice to see it established, that when a Member entered a Committee room, he should swear that he had no interest, direct or indirect, in the matter under the consideration of that Committee. He wished the House to understand, however, that the petition which had been presented by the hon. Member for Staffordshire was not, in fact, the petition of Mr. Eyre Lee, but the Corporations or Corporate Bodies, so that in some cases they have been, and now are elected from persons not resident in or connected with the towns or places to which the said Corporations or Corporate Bodies belong; and in other cases they are elected by each other, that is to say, by the Corporation or Corporate Body itself, the inhabitants or citizens of such towns or places having no voice or influence in such elections: And whereas, it is an undoubted and established principle that all Charters of Franchise may be forfeited by mis-user or non-user: And whereas it never was contemplated by the law that any City or Borough that had fallen into decay, and was unable to bear the burthen of sending Members to the House of Commons, and of paying them the wages of their attendance, should by any art, decree, or contrivance, fall into the power of a few persons or of a single individual to cause the return of a Member or Members to serve in Parliament, and therefore no method is pointed out by the law of putting an end to such abuse, except upon the petition of the said City or Borough, to be relieved of the burthen of sending Members to Parliament: And whereas the first Writs de expensis militum, &c. are coeval with the King's first Writs of summons to elect and send Knights, Citizens, and Burgesses to Parliament: And whereas the exact amount, of such 732 petition of the officers of that House; for the course which Mr. Sydney was pursuing was unfavourable to their enormous emoluments. He had a right to complain of the enormous expense attending the soliciting of Bills in Parliament. Economy was much talked of, but what he wanted to see was practical economy; and he thought that professional man deserved well of his country who endeavoured to diminish the expense in question. What was the object of the letter of which the petition complained? To inform solicitors that, they need not have Parliamentary agents, who would put them to an expense of 500l. 600l., and 700l., and as he had known in some cases 1,000l.; but that the business would be transacted at the same rate as ordinary law proceedings. Thus, to propose a saving of time and money was, in his opinion, highly laudable, and he would not shrink from his part of the responsibility attached to the proposition. At the same time, he was quite ready to submit to the opinion of the House if they determined that no Member of that House should have any connection or interest of that nature, and if they applied the principle in all cases rigidly, sternly, and satisfactorily. But he was sure the House wages have been fixed by Act of Parliament, and ought to be paid according to the difference and in the value of money at the present day: And whereas from the most ancient times such qualifications have been required on the part of those who are to elect the said Knights, Citizens, and Burgesses, as should secure, as far as human wisdom could secure, the independent exercise of such important rights, and therefore the right of voting for Citizens and Burgesses, where there was no charter or custom to the contrary, was limited to all Householders within the same, paying scot and lot, Be it therefore further enacted, that as soon as the said Committee shall have ascertained the fact that any city or borough shall have fallen into decay, and ceased to be such populous and wealthy place, as, according to this Act was originally intended to bear the burthen of sending a Member or Members to serve in Parliament, or that such city or borough shall by any means have fallen into a state that the return of a Member or Members to serve in Parliament, is become a proprietary interest, or is absolutely in the power and at the command of any one individual, or of a few individuals, whether sole or corporate, or that such return at the last election was obtained by means of money given to the electors, or that the electors of such city or borough are 733 would not apply to any individual a restriction, however wholesome it might be considered, from which the Members at large were exempt. To whatever decision, however, the House might come upon the subject, he should cheerfully submit. [hear, hear]

§ Mr. Littleton
gave great credit to the hon. Gentleman for the candour and frankness with which he had expressed himself. He had not determined whether to move the reference of the Petition to a Select Committee, or to the Committee of Privileges. At present he would merely move that the Petition be printed.

§ Mr. Harvey
observed, that he had omitted to mention that before he had taken the step which he had adopted, he had taken the advice of a very eminent pleader, who was a Member of a Committee of which he was also a Member. That Gentleman had reminded him of the instance of Sir James Graham. The Committee on which they were sitting was a Gas-Light Committee; the hon. Member, when he (Mr. Harvey) asked him if he thought there would be any objection to the step which he contemplated, on the ground that a Mem- so reduced in point of wealth and number, that they could not, and ought not, to bear the burthen of sending a Member or Members to serve in Parliament, and to pay the wages of attendance according to the value of money at the present day, or that any corporation of any city or borough to which a Charter has been granted to send a Member or Members to serve in Parliament have not been elected by the Burgesses at large, but elected by themselves or in any other manner, whereby the city or borough is deprived of the power of electing a Member or Members to serve in Parliament: in all or any of such cases, it shall be the duty of the Chairman of the said Committee to report such fact to the Secretary of State for the Home Department, and such report shall be deemed and taken to be the petition of the city or borough to which it relates, to be relieved of the burthen of sending a Member or Members to serve in Parliament, or where there has been a franchise by Charter to such city or borough, granted by the Crown or by Parliament, such report shall be deemed and taken to be a forfeiture of such franchise upon the ground of misuser, and it shall be the duty of such Secretary of State to announce in the Gazette that under and by virtue of this Act, such city or borough has ceased to send a Member of Members to serve in Parliament. And it shall be the duty of the said Committee to begin making such reports as are 734 ber ought not to have an interest in any Parliamentary proceeding, bade him look round them, and he would see that there were several Members who had shares to a large amount in the undertaking to which the Bill under consideration related. For himself, he had never attempted to obtain any undue influence in Committees of that House; and his Parliamentary conduct had been, and would continue to be, as independent as that of any man in the House. He believed that even the hon. Member for Staffordshire himself had a considerable interest in a Canal, the Bill respecting which was in a Committee to which that hon. Member belonged. For himself he repeated, that he never had had an interest of that kind to the amount of six-and-eight pence. [a laugh]

§ Mr. Littleton
said, that the hon. Member was mistaken in supposing that he had any interest in the Coventry Canal. In other Canal Bills, however, he had certainly had an interest.