§ Mr. Spring Ricepresented (pursuant to address) an account of the Pensions on the Civil List, and several other papers relating to Salaries of Public Offices.
§ Mr. Spring Ricesaid, they were down to last June. There were among the papers some Treasury Minutes relating to the office of Vice-treasurer of Ireland. These, 747 however, would not show the whole of the reductions and alterations to be made in that office, as further arrangements had since been made, and some were in progress, which would tend greatly to simplify the manner of keeping the accounts. While he was on his legs, he wished to say a word as to a question which had been put to him by his hon. friend, the member for Middlesex, on a former evening, respecting the officer of Postmaster-general of Ireland, and he was the more anxious to do so, as he did not wish that any misconception should arise from what he had said. In answer to the question of his hon. friend, he stated that it was not the intention of Government to fill up the vacant office of Postmaster-general of Ireland. Now, the facts of the case, with which he was not at that time in full possession, were simply these:—soon after the late general election Lord O'Neil, who held the situation of Postmaster-general of Ireland, jointly with Lord Ross, was removed from that office. The salary of the office, which till then had been paid to Lord O'Neil only—Lord Ross having had no salary—was transferred to the latter noble Lord; so that, in effect, no saving of salary was made to the public. Within the last two days, however, the resignation of Lord Ross had been received, so that the situation was wholly vacant, and it was now the determination of Government to get rid of the office altogether, it not being necessary to the transaction of business in that department of the public service.
Mr. Humesaid, he was glad to hear the statement of his hon. friend that the office was to be abolished. It was only that day that he received a letter from Dublin, stating that the office was wholly vacant, but that up to then the salary had been continued to the other noble Lord who had held the situation jointly with Lord O'Neil; and he owned he was surprised at what had fallen from a right hon. Gentleman below him (Mr. Goulburn), who had claimed credit for the late Administration for the intention not to fill up the office. He was glad to find that the credit of the abolition belonged altogether to the new Ministry, and he took it as an earnest of their disposition to practise economy. He was glad to hear what was said by his hon. friend as to the Vice-treasurer of Ireland. His (Mr. Hume's) great object was, to get simplicity in the mode of 748 keeping the accounts, as well as a saving to the public in the amount of salary. He hoped that the accounts now laid on the Table would be printed, and after that should be agreed to, he would move that the accounts of the pensions on the Civil List in England, Scotland, and Ireland, should be brought down to the latest period to which they could be made out —to the present—as he was anxious to see what was done by former Administrations, and to begin a new score with the present Ministry. It was well known that he was anxious to get rid of the system of pensions altogether.
§ Colonel Sibthorpwished to know from the hon. Gentleman (Mr. S. Rice) opposite, whether it was the intention of Government to make a considerable reduction of the salaries of public officers. If it were, he would be ready to give the present Government his most cordial support. He had seen appointments such as that to the Clerk of the Council, and other places, which no man having a due regard for the public interest could approve.
§ Mr. Spring Ricesaid, in answer to the hon. Member's question, he could only say, that it was the intention of Government to make great reductions in every department of the public service. At the same time he would submit to the hon. Member to defer such questions as that he had put till those of his Majesty's confidential advisers who were Members of that House should be in their places, and not apply to an individual holding the humble office that he held.
Mr. Flumewas glad to hear that a general reduction of salaries was intended. He should wish to hear that every office above 500l. a-year were reduced to nearly one-half. The amount paid in large salaries to public officers was enormous. He did not mean to say that many of those who received them were not most efficient public servants; but he thought that all high salaries ought to be reduced, and some of them greatly. He held in his hand an abstract of a parliamentary paper, No. 23 of the present Session, containing an account of the salaries of civil and military offices, of 1,000l. a year and upwards, from which, though no returns were yet made of the salaries paid to officers of the House of Lords, or of the Court of Common Pleas, it appeared that the total amount paid in salaries of 1,000l. a-year and upwards, was 749 2,066,574l. Of this sum there were paid
This immense revenue was enjoyed by 993 persons, — making an average of 2,081l. a-year to each. But of these 993 persons 216 received nearly one-half of that sum. For instance, there were 161 with salaries of 2,500l. and under 5,000l.; forty-four with 5,000l., and under 10,000l.; eleven above 10,000l. a-year. Taking the whole of these 216 persons, their salaries averaged above 4,400l. a-year each. There were many of these who enjoyed large salaries,—such as Lord Ellenborough and others—when all their duties were performed by deputy. The account he had referred to did not contain the whole amount paid by the public, for it did not include the expense of collecting, or the sums paid to deputies. In fact, the whole amount paid by the public in this way could not be known, except by examination by a committee,—such a committee as that moved for on a former occasion by the hon. member for Dorsetshire. If he should have any thing to do with the formation of such a committee, he would nominate his hon. friend (Colonel Sib-thorp) near him, as he should be very glad to avail himself of his valuable assistance on the subject. The only way to get rid of exaggerated statements as to expenditure, which some hon. Members complained of, was by such a committee.
To Officers of the House of Commons £19,642 Judicial Officers 466,836 Civil 655,434 Diplomatic and Consular 251,624 Naval and Military 334,327 Colonial 338,711 Total £2,066,574
§ The papers ordered to be printed.
§ On the Motion of Mr. Hume, similar returns to those on the Table were ordered, to the latest period to which they could be made out.