The Chancellor of the Exchequer, in rising to move for a Select Committee on this subject, said, that this mode appeared to him to be the best and most unobjectionable one of providing for the old servants of the public. Till this system was adopted, they were either obliged to employ incompetent persons, or to keep back a portion of the salaries of persons as they came into office: but these modes he thought very objectionable. At all events, the appointment of a committee on the subject was very desirable, as in that case the circumstances would be looked into by those who were best able to judge of the matter, and who would propose to the House such alterations as were best calculated to prove beneficial. After the failure of the bill of the Session before last, which he had submitted to the House, the Government could do no more, till it found a spirit of economy reviving among hon. Members, and a disposition to allow the Government to carry into effect the recommendations of the Finance Committee. The Government had done all that was in its power. It had made a deduction from the salaries of all persons appointed since that recommendation, in order to form a superannuation fund. His object, therefore, in going into the committee would be, to inquire into what ought to be done in regard to those offices and salaries already in existence, and which were held before the recommendation. With a view to regulate those offices which might be hereafter created, or those appointments which might be hereafter made, he had a bill prepared, which he did not mean however to bring in till after the Committee had examined the subject. The Committee would then have the opportunity of examining the whole subject, and, according to its report, some permanent system of legislation might be established. It was not becoming the Legislature, to go on year after year, making new regulations on such a subject. It was due both to the public and individuals, that the whole matter should be regulated on some general principle, it was not right to enact a law one Session and repeal it the next; and it would be equally beneficial to the public and just to the individuals, to settle the principles on which every man entering the service hereafter 65 should receive his salary and his superannuation. He ought not merely to know its amount, but also the principles on which his remuneration was to be determined. He would not enter further into the subject, but submit his Motion to the House. The right hon. Gentleman concluded by moving that a Select Committee be appointed "to inquire into the regulations under which Superannuations in the Civil Service, and Half-pay and retired Allowances are granted, and to consider what alterations might be made consistently with a due regard to the just claims of individuals, and the benefit of the Public Service."
Mr. Robert Gordonsaid, he never was more surprised in his life than he was at hearing the Motion of the right hon. Gentleman. The House would probably do him the justice to recollect that he had, a short time before brought forward a Motion on this subject, founded on the admitted fact, that a half-pay officer, on accepting a civil situation, was obliged to give up his half-pay; while an officer on full pay, on accepting such a situation, was allowed to retain all his emoluments. He had then mentioned several instances of the latter, and he had proposed, as an equitable rule, that officers on full pay should be subject to the same restrictions as officers on half-pay. He had withdrawn that motion in consequence of the right hon. member for Liverpool suggesting, that the whole subject ought to undergo inquiry and revision, and that if nobody else undertook the matter, that right hon. Gentleman stated that he would himself bring it before the House. He wanted to know, then, why the question of officers on full pay accepting civil situations was not included in the Motion of the Chancellor of the Exchequer: and he was unfeignedly surprised that it was not included. Now finding, contrary to his just expectations, that it was not noticed at all, contrary too he thought, to the promise given by the right hon. member for Liverpool, he wished to ask the right hon. Gentleman, if he would allow him to move an instruction to the committee, to extend its inquiries into the conditions on which officers on full pay, accepting civil situations, should receive their emoluments. He hoped the Chancellor of the Exchequer would permit him to move that the committee be instructed to inquire into the expediency of persons in the Military and Naval service, 66 when appointed to civil situations, continuing to receive their full pay. No fairer opportunity could offer of entering into such an inquiry. The right hon. Gentleman and his colleagues would never convince the public that they meant to practise economy unless they began with themselves. The public, indeed, would look with much suspicion on a plan for reducing the allowance to poor clerks and half-pay lieutenants, while the whole salaries of General officers were untouched, and while some of those General officers, being in the full enjoyment of those salaries, having governorships, and other sinecure appointments, also united in their own persons the possession of a civil office, with a salary of 4,000l. or 5,000l. a year. It would be said, perhaps, that his proposition had nothing to do with the right hon. Gentleman's suggestion, but he would ask if the question of retiring allowances would not fall immediately under the consideration of the committee? If it would not have to consider what part of their emoluments military officers should retain, who were appointed to situations in the Military College, and other public establishments, and if the committee could consider that subject without embracing the question of officers being in the receipt of full pay, and accepting civil situations, such a course must inevitably be adopted by the committee, and it could not well avoid, unless prohibited, entering into the inquiry. In conclusion, he repeated his expressions of surprise at the Chancellor of the Exchequer's omitting this subject, after the pledge given to the House, declaring that the public would look with great suspicion on a measure that went to mulct a few poor clerks, while it left General officers in the receipt both of full pay and civil salaries.
[The hon. Member was about to propose his Motion for an instruction to the committee, but desisted on being informed that the committee ought first to be appointed. The committee being appointed, the hon. Member moved, that it be an instruction to the Committee to consider of the expediency of placing full and half pay officers under similar regulations, when appointed to Civil offices.]
§ Mr. Trantseconded the Motion. The hon. Member observed, that no credit would be given to the Government out of doors, unless it began its economical reductions with its highest officers. He was 67 decidedly of opinion, that both full and half pay officers should be placed on a similar footing.
The Chancellor of the Exchequerobjected to the Motion. He had no wish to deny that it related to a subject of great importance, and well worthy of the consideration of the House. He objected to it, however, because it was not necessarily connected with the object he had in view. He had given no pledge to the hon. Member. The only pledge which had been given was, that the whole subject of superannuations and pensions should be inquired into,—and to redeem that pledge, his present Motion had been brought forward. The hon. Member might submit a motion on the subject of his instruction to the House, and it was well worthy of separate consideration; but he could not consent to the present committee entering into the inquiry proposed.
Mr. R. Gordonsaid, he was move surprised, even at the opposition of the right hon. Gentleman, than he was at his omission. He had withdrawn his own Motion, on a distinct understanding that the Government would propose an inquiry—and now he found, not only, that it would not propose such an inquiry, but that it would not allow him, on a very fit and proper opportunity, to enter into it.
§ Motion negatived without a division.