HC Deb 15 July 1828 vol 19 cc1697-704
Sir James Mackintosh

rose to call the attention of the Mouse to a case of no ordinary importance, as affecting the interests of a variety of British Merchants trading to, resident in, or connected with, Spain. He was charged with presenting in behalf of those persons a petition, enumerating the harassing delays and disappointments they had experienced in their attempts to recover their property, or a compensation for its loss, under a convention concluded between his majesty's government and the king of Spain in the spring of 1823. He believed there was not on record a more manifest, obstinate, and inflexible, instance of denial of justice than this, on the part of the king of Spain towards British subjects. Their losses amounted to above 3,000,000l. sterling; and as the amount of wrong was by far the largest that had ever yet been brought before the House, so the character of the claim was the most simple, clear, and hard to be disputed, because it was founded on the letter of an express treaty. In dwelling thus on the hardship of their case, he was not disposed, any more than the petitioners, to throw blame upon our own government. Great credit had been acquired by Mr. Canning, for his efforts to secure a just indemnification for these individuals. From lord Dudley the claims of these individuals had received a due consideration; and they were disposed to expect similar attention from the present noble Secretary for Foreign Affairs. Their claims had no reference to the losses experienced by the unfortunate individuals who had engaged in the Spanish loans; though far be it from him to say one word which might tend to shake the validity of their claims. The case of the petitioners was shortly this:—In the long struggle of the Spanish people against French usurpation, about the period of 1808, many British individuals, then connected by commercial habits with Spain, as well as others not so, furnished the Spanish forces and authorities with stores, provisions, and various goods, for which they received vouchers, in some instances, to which the authorities themselves had not hesitated to affix their names. The claims, in some cases, were founded on acts of these authorities, by which British subjects were forced to contribute to the immediate exigencies of the times by forced loans or other illegal exactions. To these were added, losses at sea by British subjects, in consequence of their ships or property being detained on the high sea, and sometimes illegally confiscated and sold, by Spanish cruisers and ships of war. The claims of these persons were permitted to remain unadjusted from 1808 to 1823.—In the latter year, on the 12th of March, it was agreed between this government and that of Spain, by treaty, that these claims should be referred to a mixed commission of Spanish and English commissioners, who were "to decide on these claims in a summary way," in order to repay such British subjects as had suffered in consequence of the detention of their property under any of these circumstances. This commission met in October, 1823, and above three hundred claims were referred to it. In many instances several of these claims were combined in one; so that, in the whole, the number of claimants exceeded one thousand five hundred, and the amount of the claims between three and four millions sterling. Before these commissioners, every possible expedient had been resorted to, to delay the chances of indemnification. During eighteen months in which the commissioners sat, no more than eighteen claims were allowed out of three hundred and thirty; and only four claims out of these eighteen were determined to be just. Thus several persons whose property had been seized on the high seas, sixteen years before, contrary to the law of nations, were reduced to poverty. The secret, however, of these delays was soon after revealed. A suggestion was made by a person connected with the government of Spain, that the proceedings, under a commission of this nature, were always so excessively dilatory, that it would be advisable to make an offer to accept a given sum in liquidation of the whole demand. This sum was fixed at 800,000l.; and they were given to understand, that this would be the amount likely to be afforded by Spain, in discharge of claims amounting to upwards of 3,000,000l. Upon this suggestion the British merchants agreed to act; and they made a proposal which was copied from the plan of the Spanish agent himself, who had originated the suggestion. It produced, contrary to expectation, no good result; and the only object which the Spanish government, or their agents, appeared to have in contemplation was, to induce the claimants to make a proposition, in order that they might have it in their power to quote the sum so proposed, as an admission that, in point of fact, no more was due. The Spanish government, through its agents, then proposed to pay a sum of 500,000l., thus abating the diminished claim of the petitioners, and acting in such a manner as, had an attorney in one of our courts of law so acted, would have subjected him to be struck off the rolls. Indeed, an offer of this nature between private parties, with a view to the adjustment of a disputed claim, could not have been adducible, for the purpose of reducing the amount of their claim, in a court of law. As an additional breach of faith, it must be observed, that the Spanish minister at London, in 1824, had told their agent that such a reduction of their demand should be without prejudice to their claim. Yet, so far from this promise being kept, it was made, in the spring of 1826, a proof that such was the maximum of their demand. The next step was still more disgraceful. The Spanish agent professed to Mr. Cock, that his government was willing, as a proof of the honour which distinguished the Castilian character, to add to 500,000l. already offered, an additional 50,000l. Such was the mean and paltry higgling adopted on this occasion, that it almost amounted to a clear evasion of the claim, or an attempt to annihilate it altogether. For some time matters remained in this state of uncertainty, until the gentlemen intrusted to manage for the British claims were invited to Paris, where they had an interview with two Spanish authorities intimately connected with the court, one of them the keeper of the Great Book of Spain, where they received assurances, further corroborated by the letter of the duke of Villa-Hermosa, that the agreement they might then enter into would be final and conclusive; in consequence of which, in February, 1827, they agreed, by convention, to pay three million sterling in two months. Mr. Cock having received assurances that he might consider this matter finally settled, and that he had succeeded in his object, returned to this country.—In about two months afterwards the claimants were informed, that the Spanish agents had, in this instance, exceeded their authority, and that their convention, together with the letter of the Spanish ambassador in Paris, were of no avail.—He was afraid that nobody who had heard him was aware of the high genealogy of the duke of Villa Hermosa; for their information he would acquaint them, that this duke was a descendant of the Castilian peer of that name, at whose castle on the Ebro, Don Quixote had been entertained, as described by the immortal Cervantes. Surprising as it was, this nobleman, distinguished by his Castilian blood and high rank, still condescended to remain in the service of that monarch, who had not hesitated thus shamefully to violate the pledge given through him to the claimants. He could not envy him the feeling which had prompted him to continue in that service; still less the facility with which he had received from this royal dispenser of honours, the Order of the Golden Fleece of Spain, within one short month of that period, when he had thus dishonoured his representative, by retracting the execution of that which might be considered a common duty of honesty. In this train things continued till the arrival of the Count Ofalia in London. During twelve months afterwards, ineffectual offers were made to effect an arrangement; until the court of Madrid, through the count, raised the offer from the 550,000l. formerly made, to 700,000l.; adopting, in this instance, a system which would have disgraced a pedlar. These worthy personages had since raised the offer of indemnification to 900,000l.—After, therefore, the majority of the claimants had been actually in a starving condition in consequence of the injustice inflicted upon them, it would, perhaps, be wise to attempt to induce them to silence their indignation, and to accept this inadequate sum; but the danger was, that if they now abated their claims, after three years struggling to establish them, this, as in the former instance, would be taken as the maximum of their demand; and the agents thought it would be unsafe for their friends, and treacherous in themselves, thus to violate those rights and claims which the petitioners held under sanction of the law of nations. Under circumstances so mean, base, and ungenerous, he thought there could be no possible defence set up for the conduct of the court of Spain. The letter of the minister of the King of Spain, would, in his mind, have been legal evidence in a court, were the case between two private individuals. The justice of their case could not be doubted, and it had, to a certain extent, been admitted. The only hope he had was, that the House, on such an occasion, would be disposed to strengthen the hands of ministers by some manifestation of its opinion, of so formal and solemn a nature, that the artifices even of Spanish Diplomatists would be of no avail against the clearly-expressed opinion of the Commons of Great Britain. For that reason he should reserve to himself the right of proposing an Address to his Majesty; and he was the more disposed to do so, because he had heard that there were Spanish agents in some parts of Europe, and in this country, who declared, that they did not believe that this country was in a condition to risk a vigorous application in behalf of the claimants. He could not trust himself to comment on so flagrant an insinuation. He was sure the feelings of the House must be strongly excited by the bare possibility of the circumstance he had stated. But he did not desire to address himself to these feelings. He disclaimed any such intention; but he did say, that unless we gave some formal mark of our resolution to support ministers, we might seem to countenance these injurious and impudent assertions. He had some reason to believe, that the partisans of such proceedings as he had described, knowing the feelings with which they must be viewed by a British House of Commons, would be disposed still further to protract the settlement of these claims, if they were aware that so troublesome an assembly as that was to be silenced for six months. While he could not consent to delay, he should, in the first instance, move only that the petition be brought up.

Mr. Alderman Thompson

said, that men of higher honour than the petitioners were not to be found in the city of London. He felt bound to support their claims with all the energy of which he was capable. Many of those persons had been reduced from affluence to a state of abject poverty. One of them had been living on the bounty of his friends, expecting daily an adjudication in his favour; but having sunk under his misfortunes, he was now the inmate of a public hospital. If that unhappy situation was the result of any fault of his own, his case might not call for the interposition of parliament; but no such charge was alleged against him. His property was taken from him on the high seas, without any other plea than that of necessity.

Mr. Fergusson

said, he would confine himself to the single point of the imperative duty which had devolved upon government to see the convention fulfilled. Here was a case in which a regular arrangement had been made between a person in the confidence of the Spanish court. It was not denied that the agents of the court of Madrid had acted with full powers; but it was alleged that they had exceeded their instructions. Now, suppose the British claimants had agreed to accept 500,000l. for their indemnification, would they not have been bound by the act of their agent so stipulating? Why, then, was the act of the Spanish agents to be avoided, because the sum was larger than their government were willing to pay? If this were the case of mere individuals, no question could possibly be raised against it. This was not a matter of private grievance, neither was it a case of political or commercial delinquency.—It was a public case, involving loss of public character, if the terms of it were left unfulfilled, and one fit for government to see redressed, at the risk of the utmost extremity.

Mr. Secretary Peel

said, it was quite impossible to deny the undoubted justice of the claims of the petitioners—claims recognised and ratified by a solemn convention, and the right hon. gentleman had borne testimony to the exertions of those who had attempted to give effect to that convention. He knew that Mr. Canning, and after him lord Dudley, had given their utmost attention to those claims. His noble friend, who at present presided over the Foreign Department, had been so much occupied, since his entrance into office, that he had not been able to attend to that particular subject. He nevertheless believed, that nothing was more on his noble friend's mind, than to obtain justice for the petitioners. If, having said thus much, he should offer any opposition to the motion, he trusted it would not be attributed to any intention to oppose claims, the justice of which he had already proclaimed. He thought the right hon. gentleman himself must see, that the manifestation of the opinion of the House would be sufficient for his object. He thought also that to pledge the House to follow up the motion by an address to the Crown, was a proceeding not called for by the case in question. He hoped, therefore, that the House would not be called upon to pledge itself to ulterior proceedings, on a subject respecting which negotiations were still pending. He was enabled. to say, that a greater probability existed at present of an amicable settlement of the matter than at any former period; and it was only an act of justice to the count d'Ofalia to declare, that he was most anxious to bring the affair to a conclusion. The count had full powers for that purpose, and had made a proposition, the difference between the sum mentioned in which, and that claimed by the petitioners, was not so material as to forbid the hope that the affair would be amicably settled.

Sir R. Wilson

said, that the discussion had offered the best answer to the calumnies which had been circulated in another place, that the new South American States had so misconducted themselves, since their independence had been established, that the best thing that could be done would be to replace them under the dominion of the parent state. Now, it had been proved, in the case before the House, that the conduct of that parent state had been of a much more flagrant nature, than either Europe or America had furnished an lexample of. He feared, from what had already occurred, that the present government of this country was not disposed to press the claims of the petitioners on Spain, as vigorously as their predecessors had done, in the time of the Cortes; and he saw no reason why the present Spanish government should be treated with more indulgence than the government of the Cortes.

Mr. Huskisson

said, he trusted that the period was near at hand, when the claimants would obtain that fair compromise which, under all the circumstances, could be accepted by them; always providing that such compromise was binding on the king of Spain, and to be forthwith bona fide executed by the payment of the promised sum. He believed, however, that the great difficulty on the part of Spain, had not been so much any pertinacious desire to refuse payment, as her absolute difficulty of finding the means of satisfying the demands upon her. He would take upon himself to say, that Great Britain had never urged any point more anxiously, with a view not only to the interests of the British subjects, but to the honour of the two countries. That was the course pursued by Mr. Canning and by lord Dudley; and he was happy to find that there was now a prospect of seeing the object attained. Under those circumstances, he was sure the right lion, gentleman would feel that there was no necessity for pressing his motion.

Sir J. Mackintosh

observed, that the claimants had so often expressed themselves willing to accept of a fair compromise, that he could not think of urging them to adopt a course, towards which they were so perfectly disposed already.—He could not help thinking, however, that the declaration of the right hon. gentleman as to the anxiety with which this government had urged the claim of common honesty upon the government of Spain, and, as the result had proved, with so little success, afforded no great prospect of a satisfactory arrangement.—In conclusion, he took it to be the understanding of the House, as much so as if they had expressed it by resolution, that he now abstained from urging the claim, from the conviction that government would take the most effectual means in their power to procure compensation for the petitioners.

Ordered to lie on the table.