Mr. Wilmot Hortonmoved for leave to bring in a bill to authorise the Sale of Clergy Reserves in Upper and Lower Canada. The object of the measure was, he said, to enable the corporative of the clergy in Canada to dispose, by private contract, of the lands reserved for the clergy in 1791; with respect to which it was originally arranged that they were to be disposed of to the Canada Company. By alienating a part of the provision appropriated to the clergy by the Canada act of 1791, the value of the remaining portion would be improved, and the country relieved from the expense annually voted for the supply of the Protestant Clergy in that part of the world.
Mr. Stanleysupported the motion. The short acquaintance he had recently had with the provinces of Canada enabled him to state, that whatever might be the differences of political and party feeling in that country—and there was no place where party feeling ran higher—no person entertained a difference of opinion as to the pernicious tendency of the Clergy Reserves. When Mr. Pitt brought forward the Canada bill in 1791, he distinctly specified, that the arrangement then made must be subject to such modifications as might afterwards be deemed expedient. The experience of thirty-five years had demonstrated not only the inconvenience, but the absolute mischief, which resulted from that arrangement. The appropriation of Clergy Reserves in Canada had operated as a serious obstacle to agricultural improvement. The making of roads, an object of so much importance to the colony, was checked by this arrangement for, as every man was obliged to make roads through his own estate, where these reserves occurred, the progress of road-making was either arrested, or the burthen 587 thrown upon the owner of the contiguous land.
§ Mr. Humeexpressed his satisfaction at the measure proposed by the hon. Secretary. Nothing tended more to check the progress of improvement in Canada, than the allotment of land to the clergy. He should be glad to know the details of the new arrangement made between his majesty's government and the Canada company. He trusted also, that these reserved lands would be disposed of by some public mode of purchase, so as to enable the proprietors of the adjoining lands to become purchasers. By these means, improvements in the cultivation of land, and in the making of roads, would be more rapidly carried on.
Mr. W. Hortonobserved, that measures would be taken to make it imperative on the clergy td co-operate in the making of roads, and in carrying other improvements into effect. The lands in question were the properly of the church of England, as secured to that church by the Canada act of 1791.
Mr. Baringsaid, he entertained strong objections to the appropriation of land in Canada specifically to the church of England; not because he objected to the church of England, for he was as zealous a member of that church as any gentleman in that House, but because he was anxious that the House should not sow the seeds of that very dissention which we now so lamentably deplored in Ireland. If we could contrive some means to make all the people of Canada church of England men, he should have no objection to such an expedient; but if the fact were, that the church of England had taken but slight root in Canada, and that the mass of Protestant Christians in that country were of different persuasions, by appropriating money and land to the church of England in Canada, we should be laying a foundation for future dissention, and for the separation of the colony from the mother country. The Attorney-general for Upper Canada had been examined on the subject of these church Reserves; and, in answer to a question, as to how many members of the legislative assembly in Upper Canada were church of England men, his answer was "two, he being one of the two." Now, he did not know of how many members the legislative assembly consisted; but it could scarcely be a number of which two formed, any considerable portion. He 588 wished the House to be aware of the state hi which the church of England stood in Canada; for he was persuaded there was not a man of common sense in the country, who would not say, that, instead of promoting the interests of the church of England, by making a provision for it in Canada, we were placing it in a position to be scouted by that legislative assembly, of which two members only belonged to that church, one of those members being his majesty's Attorney-general. With respect to the arrangement for disposing of the church Reserves, he entirely concurred in the expediency of that measure.
Mr. W. Hortonobserved, in explanation, that whether the distribution of lands to which the hon. member alluded, was right or wrong, it Was done under the express authority of, and in obedience to, the provisions of the Canada Act, and could not, therefore now be called in question. All they proposed to do at present was, to dispose of a certain portion of those lands, in order that they might render the remainder more productive. With respect to what had fallen from an hon. member upon the subject of the expense of emigration, he begged to observe, that there were many parishes in England most willing to pay half the expense of the removal of their paupers in that way, without any hope of being repaid.
Mr. Warburtonthought, that in these times, it would have been better to make appropriations of land for the diffusion of education, rather than for the support of the church. The act of parliament reserved one-seventh part of the lands for the maintenance of the established church; but he wished to know whether it was not the intention of government to dispose of the produce of some of those lands, to educate the poor emigrants they were about to convey to Canada. It was not too late to revise the act; and he would most earnestly recommend them to do so, as well as to adopt some measures with respect to the importation of Canada corn. He would remind them of the expressions used by a great philosopher, a great political economist, and the founder of a great empire, the celebrated Dr. Franklin, in his interviews with a noble lord. That great man, in speaking of the colonists, observed, "That if they were to sow and to reap, and yet not be allowed to ship, the sooner the government of this country sent out transports to bring the people home again, 589 it would be so much the better." The Canada corn bill had been passed for one year; but for some reason, with which he was unacquainted, it was not revived; and the attempt to produce a measure of the same kind had been defeated in the other House in the session before the last. He would, however, most strenuously recommend ministers to turn their attention to the subject; for, unless they could give the emigrants a market, it was useless to talk of the improvement of their lands.
Mr. Stanleybegged to observe, that in giving his unqualified approbation to the measure proposed, he must be understood as being perfectly aware of the nature of the property allotted to the church, and of being as sensible as any man of the monstrous absurdity of attempting to support what was called the established church, but which, in fact, never would be established. The present sale he understood to be for the improvement of the remainder of the lands given to the church; and as such it had his approval. It left, too, the question respecting the propriety of such grant precisely where it was; for the act of 1791, under the authority of which it was made, remained just as open to revision or amendment after that sale as it was before.
Mr. Waithmancondemned, in strong terms, the plan of giving lands in the colonies to any company whatever. He feared that, in such cases, the property was only turned to the purpose of enriching a few individuals, while the mass of those who were seduced by their promises and representations became the victims of their credulity. He had known a great many instances of that kind, and actually seen a person who had made his way back to England from Colombia, after being defrauded of money he had paid for land, and been disappointed in all the prospects held out to him. Many of the unfortunate settlers sent out by companies were, in fact, scattered over the country, instead of being settled down in the places which were promised to them.
Mr. W. Hortoncomplained of the kind of declamation used by the hon. alderman upon the subject. Nothing could be more absurd than to say all companies were unworthy, because the members of one had been guilty of deceit.
Mr. Dawson, (of Louth), condemned the whole project, as useless and impolitic. They now proposed to sell one part of the land for the improvement of the other; 590 but the day of that improvement would never come. They would be obliged to have a commission to carry these measures into effect, and he had seen too much of commissions not to know that the whole would end in a system of jobbing. Lands never could be rendered productive in the hands of the church. In his own country the church lands were always the worst, probably from the leases being short, and there being no motive therefore for improvement. If the hon. gentleman wished really to improve the lands, let him grant long leases of them for 999 years, or thereabouts, and then the tenants would be stimulated to make them valuable.
§ Leave was given to bring in the bill.