§ On the order of the day for going into a committee on the Navy Estimates,
§ Mr. Humesaid, it appeared to him that the House was proceeding much too rapidly with respect to these estimates. He well knew, if ministers persevered in the course of expenditure which they had pursued for the last few years, the country would be little able to bear it, in the new circumstances in which it was placed. The House should be made acquainted with the amount which would be necessary for the army, navy, ordnance, and other establishments; as the amount of the last year had greatly exceeded those of former years. It might not be improper to recall the attention of the House to the fact, that in 1816, a committee had sat, composed, he might say, of his majesty's ministers—called the Finance Committee, and had reported, that the amount of the expenditure of the said establishments, after paying two millions to the India company, would not exceed 17,350,000l. It would be recollected, that the late lord Castlereagh had confidently pledged himself and the ministers, that after the arduous struggle in which the country had been engaged, the public expenditure should be reduced to the lowest, after 1818, and the committee had reported that 17,350,000l. would be adequate to a permanent establishment. It would be well for the House to inquire how things had been managed since; for they would scarcely believe, that each succeeding year had surpassed the expenses of the former; and that it was now three or four millions above that estimate. In 1818, the estimates were confidently stated to be 17,350,000l.; but on referring to the actual expenditure of that year, it would be found to amount to 19,136,000l. The next year it was 19,280,000l. In 1820, it was 19,280,000l. In 1821, it was about 20,000,000l., and at that rate it has continued. Now, if any effectual relief was to be afforded to the country, it must be begun by reducing the establishments. The most effectual strength of the country was the navy; but he thought it would be injudicious to add to its numbers without diminishing the army, which was three millions more than the finance committee considered would be sufficient to maintain a permanent 521 establishment. He thought the House was not in a condition to go into a committee, until the chancellor of the Exchequer had stated the amount of the resources of the country, and what taxes he meant to reduce; for it was not possible for the country to sustain the same load of taxation in a metallic currency, as it had done in a paper one. He should have been very glad if the right hon. gentleman had brought forward the whole of his financial statement at once. He trusted the House would not suffer itself to be led away any longer by flattering and delusive statements, which ultimately turned out to be nothing but mere words. Ministers had told us, in his majesty's Speech, that professions of friendship and amity had been received from all foreign courts. If this was the fact, surely, especially when we took into consideration our insulated situation, there was no need for our keeping up, at such an enormous expense, such large military and naval establishments. Last year we had 29,000 seamen; this year it was proposed to add another thousand; whereas, the number appointed by the finance committee as a sufficient peace establishment, was only 19,000. If we went on in this way, it was quite impossible that our finances could ever recover, or that we could ever be prepared to carry on an effective war. No naval establishment in the world amounted to one-half of our own. What was the navy of the United States, from which we were constantly told we had so much to fear? Why, the number of line-of-battle ships in the American navy was only seven, whereas the number of our ships of war was 509. Surely, then, we ought to pause before we added to our expenditure in this department. For his part, he would not consent to vote a single man or a single pound until the chancellor of the Exchequer had made a statement of the revenue and the expenditure. It should be recollected that, en a former occasion, ministers, after stating that it was quite impossible for them to make any reduction in their military establishment, had, of their own accord, when they found the revenue insufficient for the support of it, made a reduction in it, of from ten to twelve thousand men. Our army might, without any danger to the country, be decreased one-third, and then we might well afford to keep up a respectable naval establishment. He would move, by way 522 of amendment, "That it is desirable, before the House should vote any part of the naval and military establishments for the year, that the extent of those establishments, and the estimates of them, should be laid before the House, particularly as the naval estimates for this year exceed in amount those of the last year."
The Chancellor of the Exchequersaid, the only mode the House had to determine why it was that the estimates of the present year exceeded those of the last, was by going into a committee of supply, in which his hon. friend (sir G. Clerk) would explain them, item by item. Although, for the last few years, he had felt it due to the public convenience to give as early an explanation as he could of the state of the finances of the country, yet he had never supposed the House would have been precluded from pursuing the usual course of going into a committee of supply for the purpose of inquiring whether the amount proposed ought to be voted. If the House were to abstain from investigating the estimates, item by item, until he had made his general statement of the finances of the country, it would be imposing on him a task which he should be unable to perform; for he must, in that case, take upon himself to explain the duties of his hon. friend near him, and of those other hon. friends who were engaged in the various public departments. It would be the most inconvenient course possible, and, in fact, was calculated to throw obstacles in the way of the views of the hon. member himself. If when the different items were explained to the committee by the head of the department to which they belonged, they were not explained in a satisfactory manner, the committee could reject them. The usual practice appeared to him to be at once the most convenient and the most salutary; and he therefore could not acquiesce in any proposal for departing from it.
Colonel Daviescontended, that it was the duty of the House to make the government reduce its establishments, in order to secure a reduction of taxation. It was possible, that when these estimates were produced, he should give them his support, for they related to a branch of the public service towards which he, is common with every man, was disposed to act liberally. He was anxious to support the navy upon every occasion, as it was 523 the right arm of our strength, and the chief source of our glory. If the military establishment were not less for the present year than it was for the last, he should certainly move for a considerable reduction of it.
§ Mr. Brightcalled upon ministers to take the state of the country into immediate consideration. He took the present opportunity of protesting against their inactivity, in order that he might not, on some future occasion, be blamed for having participated in it. Indeed, if some explanation were not given before the House resolved itself into the committee, he did not know whether he should not be provoked to create an opportunity for delivering his own sentiments upon the present condition of the nation. The right hon. gentleman had stated, that it would be inconsistent with the ordinary practice of parliament, if, when he entered into his financial statements, he were to go into the estimates point by point. Did, then, the right hon. gentleman mean to put off his statement till all the estimates were voted? The sum voted as a supply might not be such as he proposed; and therefore it was necessary for the House to know how to apportion it to the different branches of the public service. The estimates Ought to be examined in detail, with a view of making every possible reduction in them. He doubted much whether the revenue, under the new system of currency which was going to be introduced, could be raised to any thing like its old amount. Sure he was, that the proposed alteration in the circulating medium would cause great heart-burning in the collection of the ordinary taxes of the country.
Mr. Hutchinsonsupported the amendment. The going into a committee upon the estimates without having an account of the financial state of the country, appeared to him to be as absurd as it would be for a gentleman to order a carriage and horses, without knowing what fortune he had to support it. Ministers acted as if they wished to pledge the House to support a certain amount of expenditure, without allowing it to judge of its means of meeting it.
§ Mr. Humesaid, that ministers, at the commencement of every year called on the heads of their different establishments to give them an account of the sums they wanted for the ensuing year, in 524 order that they might lay them before the House within fourteen days after the meeting of parliament. Now, what he wanted ministers to do was this—before the House voted away any sums to one department, to let it know what the estimates for the whole year would amount to. It would then be able to decide what part of its funds it ought to apportion to the supply of the navy. If 17,000,000l. were the sum agreed upon for the service of the year, they could then determine whether it was right to vote 6,000,000l. to the navy, and 8 or 9,000,000l. to the army. At present, the House had not the necessary data to decide upon the proportions.
Mr. Secretary Canningobserved, that whatever might be the distress of the country, he could see no reason why hon. gentlemen should set themselves in array against the forms of parliament, and should insist that business should be transacted in a different mode from that in which it had been transacted for ages. He believed that never, on any account, had there been any deviation from the course which government had proposed that night to take; that never, not merely since the Revolution, but before it, in the most turbulent times, had a vote been taken in objection to the Speaker's leaving the chair, when the purpose of it was to vote a supply in committee for the navy; and that never had such a demand been made upon any head of a department as that which had just been made on his hon. friend, to open his statement of the estimates before he went into the committee, where alone that statement could be productive of any practical result. The House went into a committee, in order that explanations might be asked and given of the different items in the estimates, without infringing upon the usual orders of the House; and the hon. member now asked, that for the first time these explanations should be given in the House itself; and because he had a speech within him, which he had declared his intention if provoked, to make, now called upon them to depart from their usual custom of voting each of the estimates separately in a committee. He would rather hear his speech now, and then go into the committee, than depart from the ancient and long-established practice of parliament. But, said another hon. gentleman, would it be right for a man to keep a house in town and another in the country, without 525 first examining into the amount of income he had to meet such an expenditure? The allusion, he conceived, to be ill chosen. For, in this case the man's books were forthcoming, to prove that he had supported a similar expenditure before. Besides, the house in the country might be considered as a sort of luxury; whereas what was now wanted was absolutely necessary to the defence of the country. If his servant were to tell him, that he wanted locks for his doors in order to secure his properly, he would order them to be got, without making a previous inquiry into the general state of his affairs. So he would advise the House to act upon this occasion. The grant of these estimates was necessary to the defence of the country. He admitted, that the situation of the country was such as to require serious attention and deliberation; but, he would never admit that it was in such a condition, that its? ordinary establishments could not be maintained, and that it was in such danger that the ordinary forms of parliament must be dispensed with. He should be sorry that the House should come to a division on this point; because the construction put upon such a division out of doors would be, that it was a sign of irritated opposition, which, as the hon. member's speech was not an angry speech, he did not believe had any existence in his mind. He therefore hoped that the hon. member would waive his opposition, and that he would consent to gain in the committee that information which, according to all prior usage, could be given in the committee alone.
Mr. C. F. Palmerthought that government should ascertain the effect of the alteration in the currency before it proceeded to levy taxes on the country. He asked, whether the salaries of certain functionaries filling high public situations, had not been raised in the course of the last year; and if so, whether they would not be still further raised, in consequence of the alterations which were now making in a depreciated currency?
§ Mr. Humesaid, he was so far from being actuated by any angry feeling, that he would not press his amendment to a division. If his proposition went to introduce a new practice into the House, he was not aware of it. At any rate, whether new or not, he thought it highly advantageous to the public service.
The amendment was then negatived, 526 and the House having resolved itself into the committee of supply,
§ Sir George Clerksaid, that it now became his duty to explain to the committee why the navy estimates of this year were greater than those of the last. He expressed a hope that he should be able to satisfy the hon. member for Aberdeen, that the navy estimates of the present year were drawn up with every attention to economy, which the safety and the honour of the country admitted. The hon. member upon this occasion, as upon many others, had referred to the opinion given by the committee of finance in 1817, as to the requisite magnitude of our naval force, and had contrasted the navy estimates of that year with the navy estimates of the present. Now, upon that head, he would say, that owing to the great extension of our commerce with the nations of South America, the calls on the Admiralty for ships of war to afford it protection had very much increased; and that with the force now voted, the Admiralty had not been able to meet the demands which had been made upon it from several quarters to send an adequate force into all those seas. The committee would recollect, that there was no part of South America with which we did not trade at present. The unsettled situation of those states, arising partly from their struggle with their mother country, and partly from their jealousy of each other, rendered it absolutely necessary for this country to have an adequate naval force on the coasts of all of them, to guard our commerce from the insults to which it would otherwise be infallibly subjected. The hon. member for Aberdeen had stated, that the increase in our naval establishment had been occasioned by a corresponding increase in. the navy of the United States. To that statement he must give an unqualified denial. The increase in our navy, since 1821, was occasioned by the increase of our commerce with South America. Its unsettled condition, which had been felt by the United States, by France, and by every naval power which had any commerce at all, had rendered an augmentation necessary in the naval force of each state. For the same reason, a necessity for increasing our force in the Mediterranean had risen out of the war now raging between the Greeks and the Turks. If we had not had a considerable naval force in that sea, we should have suffered 527 numerous insults from both the belligerents, of which ministers, had they taken place, would have heard pretty loudly in that House. The situation of the Spanish West-India islands, also, required the presence of a force to put down the practical squadrons which had recently cruised in their neighbourhood; and though, by the conjoint efforts of our own navy and that of the United States, they had recently been driven into holes and corners, still they were not exterminated; and if we diminished our force, they would soon recommence the depredations we had stopped. A large force was also stationed off the coast of Africa, to put down the traffic in slaves, and another for the same purpose, off the island of Cuba. If the committee, therefore, would consider the various calls which were made upon the Admiralty, it would see, that a force of 29,000 men was scarcely sufficient for the service. For the present year, a force of 30,000 men was deemed absolutely necessary. A requisition had been presented to the Admiralty from the East India company, praying that an additional naval force might be sent into the Indian seas, on account of the hostilities which now raged between the Burman empire and the East India company. A thousand men was the force required by them. As that force was sent into the Indian seas, not to protect British commerce, but to assist the East India company and to secure their territory, an arrangement was now in progress, by which the greater part of the expense of providing for it would be thrown upon the company. They were to furnish the sum of 60,000l. for that purpose; but as some additional powers would be wanted, to enable them to complete that arrangement, the mode in which they were to pay it would be explained on the introduction of the necessary bill. The amount of the estimates for the present year showed an excess above those of the last, of 180,000l. One cause of this increase was the additional force of 1,000 men. Another cause was, that the expense of victualling the navy had increased, in consequence of the advanced price of all kinds of provisions, and particularly of Irish pork and beef, of which the consumption was very considerable. An increase of 3s. a month in the victualling of each man had therefore become necessary; and thus notwithstanding the victualling of the navy was conducted 528 with the utmost economy, an increase had been caused of nearly 100,000l. on these two heads of expenditure. The expense of the civil establishments of the navy had not increased. On the contrary, in some respects, it had considerably diminished. Indeed, he had no hesitation in saying, that had it not been for the additional force of 1000 men, and the increased price of provisions, the estimates for this year would have been much lower than for the last. Gentlemen would observe, that a change had been made in the drawing up the estimates. Under the first head of expenditure the vote for wages, for victuals, for wear and tear, and for ordnance, had generally been included. Neither of the two latter items of expenditure were found under that head in the estimates of the present year; and he would state the reason why. The sum voted for wear and tear was supposed to be expended on behalf of the ships which were actually afloat, and was calculated at so much a head. An objection had been made by the hon. member for Aberdeen to this mode of calculation. He had stated, that it was absurd to calculate the wear and tear by so much a head, instead of calculating it by the stores consumed. As soon as the objection was made, it was thought advisable to remedy the evil, and bring it entirely under the head of stores. There was this year a diminution of 320,000l. under the head of wear and tear. Under the head of ordnance there was a considerable increase; but, in the two articles of wear and tear, and of ordnance put together, there was a saving of 30,000l. With regard to the head of ordnance of the navy, as it was a matter over which the navy board had no control, it had been omitted in these estimates, and would be moved for when the ordnance estimates were brought forward. He did not think it necessary to say any thing on the ordinary estimates of the navy, as they were the same as last year. Ministers had reduced them to the lowest possible scale; and a proof of it was, that, with a force of 30,000 men our expenditure would not be greater than in 1821, when we had only a force of 23,000 men. There was one item which was inserted in these estimates for the first time for some years, and that was an item for the building of ships at Bombay. After the year 1822, this item had disappeared from the list; but the quality of the Indian timber had been found so ex- 529 cellent, the labour so cheap, and the workmanship so completely equal to that of our dockyards at home, that it had been deemed expedient to continue the building of vessels at Bombay. In the extra-estimates would be found an account of the sums to be expended upon works of the yards. He had stated on a former occasion, respecting the works at Sheerness, that if government were provided with funds to finish them in four instead of ten years, it would make about a saving of 14 per cent to the public. The cost of erecting the proposed works had been calculated by the late Mr. Rennie at 921,000l., but an offer had since been made to government, to complete them in four years for 780,000l. The plan containing that offer appeared so beneficial to the public, that government had no hesitation in acceding to it; so that, instead of calling on the committee for the vote originally mentioned for this head of expense, he should call upon it this year for a vote for 150,000l. There was an item of 50,000l. for completing the works of the Break-water, on which it was found necessary to employ a greater number of men than had yet been employed there. Under these two heads there was an increase of 181,000l. in the estimates. This, added to the increase of nearly 100,000l. for which he had before accounted, made a total increase of 281,000l.; from this was to be deducted a sum of 94,000l. voted on account of the ordnance stores last year, and not yet expended; so that the real increase of expense to the country, after making allowance for the ordnance, &c. would leave the estimates of the year greater than those of the last by 180,000l. The whole of this increase arose from the necessity of employing 1,000 additional men, from the increase in the price of provisions, and from the necessity of proceeding with their engagements at Sheerness more rapidly than was originally expected. That rapidity was rendered the more necessary by a great part of the works being at present under water, and therefore in a state very liable to be injured by violent winds or high tides. The hon. member concluded by moving, "That 30,000 men be employed for the sea service, from the 1st of January 1826, including 9,000 royal marines."
§ Mr. Humeobserved, that it was difficult for him to say whether 29,000 or 30,000 men were the exact number required for the sea-service. He should not, therefore, 530 object so much to the number of men employed, as to the amount of expenditure contained in these estimates. He was convinced that; there must be something radically wrong in it, from finding that, at former periods of our history, we had kept up a much larger navy at one-third less expense. It was easy to say, that the navy was an important branch of the public service, and therefore ought not to be neglected. He admitted that it was important; but still it was only important in, degree. When he objected to the increase of our naval force three years ago, the right hon. Secretary for Foreign Affairs said, that it was impossible to protect our commerce with the states of South America without a large disposable force, on account of the unsettled nature of their governments, and their war with the parent state. That consideration induced the House to acquiesce in that increase. He was now surprised at hearing the same cause alleged for another increase, when these states were at peace with one another, their struggle with the parent state at an end, and three distinct treaties of peace had been made between us and them. But it was said, that the presence of a large naval force was required in the Mediterranean. He did not think so: he had never yet heard of any English vessel having been either plundered or stopped by either Greeks or Turks, except when they were dealing in articles contraband of war. But then, the revenue at home required protection. And why did it? Because they kept up a system of high duties, and so spent in maintaining the preventive service a sum larger than that which would have been lost to the revenue by establishing a system of low duties. He thought that, by a reduction of duties, an end might not only be put to the smuggling which now existed on our coast, but also a saving be effected to the nation of 500,000l. The keeping up a naval squadron on the coast of Africa, which was the grave of our brave seamen, for the purpose of suppressing the slave trade, appeared to him, though the object was certainly laudable, to be a measure that ought to be dispensed with: of every negro whom they intercepted, for they could not save them from slavery, the purchase was the life of an English sailor. On the whole, he thought that 30,000 men were not wanted for the service of the navy. The flag of Great Britain would be as much respected at the mast-head of 531 a frigate, as on that of a ship of the line. If the estimates were increased in one item, on account of the increased price of provisions, there were other items on which they might be diminished. If they were not, they would go on increasing as they had done year after year, till they would soon become ten millions instead of six. The want of economy was an addition to the difficulties of the country. Let but a gun be fired in hostility against us, and government would soon discover the situation to which they had reduced the country by the neglect of its finances.—He proceeded to point out the great increase which had taken place in the half-pay and pension list since 1817, and to infer from that increase, that there was great abuse in the management of it. Any officer who had not parliamentary interest, found great difficulty in getting promotion; and any officer who had, was promoted up to a certain grade, and then placed on the half-pay list to make room for others. It appeared by the estimates, that there were already 250 ships more than the finances of the country were enabled to man; and he therefore thought that it was a mere waste of money to promote so many officers as had lately been raised. The consequence of that increase was also objectionable in another point of view: by adding to the amount of the half-pay, it augmented the dead weight, as it was very properly called. By the estimates which had been formed of that payment, it ought to have been reduced from 1,100,000l. to 550,000l.; but, so far from this being the case, the sum paid to pensioners now was 300,000l. more than it had been at the end of the war. Surely no gentlemen would gravely say that such a state of things as this ought to be tolerated. In the year 1822, in consequence of the very strong representations which had been made in that House, a reduction had taken place in the salaries of the civil officers of the establishments, and they amounted then to 714,000l. In the present year, however, an increase appeared to have taken place, and the same salaries were 789,000l. The charge for the half-pay of 896,000l. was, as he had often observed before, when alluding to that item, quite enormous, and might, he really believed, be very much reduced under a better system, if the Admiralty were compelled to make selections from that list for the public service. In the superannuation allowance, he would not 532 say any thing else, than that a great portion of the sum was money actually wasted. He did not mean to assert, that there were not many highly deserving individuals who had honestly earned that bounty; but, if any man would look back to the estimate of 1817, which was only 85,000l., and consider that they were now called upon to vote 164,000l. for the same allowance, they must agree that it was a very lavish expenditure. As long, however, as they continued to allow the Admiralty to make promotions in the manner they did at present, they could not expect any reduction, but rather that they should every year be called upon to vote even larger sums for the superannuation list. In the marines, where there had been little or no new promotions since the termination of the war, large reductions had been, of course, effected under the head of "Superannuation," and yet he believed the marines were as effective as any corps in the service. If the Admiralty were restricted as to the promotions in the navy, they would soon find a similar result in the Superannuation list of that branch of the service. In the same manner, under the head of Pursers, they would find that the absence of promotion had effected a similar reduction, and he had no hesitation in again asserting, that if the same rule was applied to the other part of the navy establishments, instead of being called upon to vote 1,388,000l., they might be able to discharge all demands with 560,000l. The next estimate was a sum of 1,980,000l. for building and repairs of shipping, and the supply of stores for the navy. Of that sum, 1,395,000l. had been expended upon building and repairing alone. He had, on a former occasion, shown, very satisfactorily, from returns on the table of the House, that a sum of seventeen millions had been expended upon that branch of the service alone, since the conclusion of the war; and that the sum total for building, repairing, and providing of stores for the navy, amounted to twenty-three millions—a sum sufficient for the full support of two navies, such as the country required. Instead of keeping up a navy of 500 ships, of all sizes, which required a million sterling to supply its losses, and three or four hundred thousand pounds for wear and tear; instead of supporting an establishment of that kind, which, whatever they might daily hear of its sound and 533 efficient state, he thought could only, in the present state of the country, be kept to rot; it would be well to consider, whether it was right to support them at all, or whether they would eventually be found as beneficial in case of war. If it cost now above six millions to keep only 130 of these ships in commission, what sum, he would ask, would it require to fit out the five hundred, if they were once more called into action? Was the country in a state to admit of such an outlay? They never could repay in value the sums which were wasted upon them; and he would humbly submit, that the best policy in their present state, would be, to keep the vessels they now possessed in an efficient state, and give up that rash and improvident system of building new ones, which were only destined, like their predecessors, to rot in the dock-yards. He should be glad to see the attention of the Admiralty turned to the recent discoveries which had been made respecting steam-vessels used as ships of war; and to consider, that in the event of this country being engaged in war, a great change must of necessity take place, by which many of our ships would be rendered wholly useless. Upon this subject he could assure the House, that the expenses which were constantly incurred were, in the opinion of persons well qualified to judge, a downright waste. The expenses of improving and finishing the dock-yards at Sheerness would amount to little less than 2,000,000l. The estimate for this year alone amounted to 50,000l. It had been admitted, that if the use of steam-boats in taking vessels up and down the river had been known, these works would not have been begun. But surely, now that the advantages of steam-boats were duly appreciated, the extensive dock-yards at Chatham might be appropriated for all the necessary purposes; and as there was no longer any difficulty in taking ships thither, it could not be prudent to throw away this 150,000l. at Sheerness. He was not sure that the accounts contained any other items which required a particular notice. The aggregate amount appeared to be 6,135,000l., which he thought a great deal too large at this time. In 1792, the character of the British navy had been no less high, nor was it less respected abroad than at the present moment, and then one-fourth of its present number of ships had been found enough for all useful purposes. He took it to be 534 a most unsatisfactory reason to say, that the protection of the revenue required this expense: if that were true, it would be better, in every other as well as in a pecuniary point of view, to alter the laws, so as to prevent the necessity of any such extraordinary protection. He saw there was a charge for hired packets, and this charge was connected with the Post-office department. He thought these two establishments ought to be kept entirely separate, and that the House ought to see distinctly what was paid for the Navy, and what for the Post-office.—He was sorry to have taken up so much of the time of the committee, but he thought it necessary to express his disapprobation of the estimates, because he was convinced they were such as the state of Europe did not require. He disapproved also of the manner in which promotions had been made in the course of the last year, and of the number of those promotions. By increasing the number of pensions it added to the dead weight, and would continue to do so, while the present establishment should be kept up. The officers themselves were dissatisfied at the unfairness and hardships which they experienced in having young men, who had no other claim to promotion than their family influence, raised above them, and being thus deprived of the rank and advantages to which their long services entitled them. He trusted that ministers would do something to check the injurious system which prevailed, and that they would be convinced of the inutility of promoting so many officers. He did not know how many promotions had taken place this year, but he believed the numbers were between 500 and 600. Many persons, he knew, were of opinion, that promotions should go on; he thought that if they did, they should at least go on very slowly. All the promotions should be made on account of long services alone; and in time of peace, no new ones should take place.
§ Sir G. Clerksaid, he had no wish to complain either of the statements which had just been made by the hon. member, or of the manner in which he had brought them forward; for he had done no more than what he conceived to be his duty, in directing the attention of the committee to such matters. The hon. gentleman had objected to the aggregate amount of the half-pay and pension charge, as being this year excessive, instead of exhibiting 535 a decrease. Now, taking the whole of the half-pay, he would admit that this charge had increased; but if the hon. gentleman alluded to the half-pay of officers, he would find that, in truth, a material reduction in the amount had taken place. The increase was in the civil class of the half-pay; and it was great undoubtedly, owing to two causes. The first of these was the material reduction of official establishments which took place in 1822, when a vast number of clerks in particular departments of the public service, connected with the navy were discharged. None but the ablest and the most efficient clerks, in many instances, were retained; but they who were so discharged, had the strongest claims on account of their long services, upon the consideration of government. Another cause, which had swelled this aggregate to its present amount, had been the great diminution of the funds for the Widows' pension. During the war, large contributions were levied on the pay of officers and crews of ships, and to such an amount, that no calls were made on the public bounty. But now, from obvious causes, these funds had become much exhausted; and the consequence was, that a charge of 90,000l. appeared in these estimates for that item alone, which had not appeared in the former estimates to which the hon. gentleman referred. For the same reasons, Greenwich Hospital, which, in war-time, had contributed to these objects very large sums of money, accruing from unclaimed pay, wages and prize-shares, had now become dried up. And though parliament had directed, that the funds in question should contribute to the payment of these services, as long as they lasted, still, when they became so far extinct as to furnish sufficient only for the payment of in-door pensioners, &c, it became necessary to apply to this House for the means of replacing them. The item of "Greenwich Hospital" was 260,000l.; and if the hon. gentleman would add this sum, and the deficiencies he had spoken of, together, he would see they amounted to about 400,000l.; which amount he would, of course, take into account, as forming a large portion of the excess of charge that he complained of. In the half-pay of officers there was a decided decrease of charge. As to what the hon. gentleman had said, respecting promotions, the marines were, in this respect, quite a different service from the navy. 536 In the latter, commissions were granted to lieutenants, who must have already passed through a long period of service: in the marines, they were given to individuals without regard to the same conditions of previous service. It was impossible to stop promotion in the navy for several reasons. Many of those promotions took place on foreign stations, and were but a moderate reward for the services of persons who were induced principally by the chance of promotion to go to the coast of Africa and other unhealthy climates. If the chance of promotion did not exist, it would be difficult to find persons to go on such hazardous service. The hon. member had also said, that there was a great increase in the item for salaries for clerks in the civil departments of the navy. The hon. member must have known that those clerks were entitled to a small progressive increase of salary, and if he had taken the trouble to look into the subject, he would have discovered that this circumstance, and nothing else, was the cause of the increase of the item alluded to. The hon. gentleman, in alluding to the million which he supposed was paid for building and repairs, had fallen into an error similar to that which the lion. Secretary for the Admiralty had set him right about some time ago. He was, however, happy to say, notwithstanding the hon. gentleman's misinformation on this subject, that at no period of the history of this country had the ships in ordinary been in a better state than they were at present, and that being repaired with seasoned timber, they had shown no symptoms of the ravages of the dry-rot. A great expense was necessarily incurred for the purpose of keeping the ships in repair; but it was an expense which was wholly unavoidable. The hon. member had objected to the works going on at Sheerness, now that steamboats would answer all the purposes for which those works had been undertaken. He would give the hon. member the benefit of his argument, which only amounted to this, that by transferring the vessels from Sheerness to Chatham, the establishments at Chatham must be increased. By having those docks at Sheerness, an opportunity offered of putting every ship into dock, and of inspecting them in every part. The hon. member had complained of the expenditure of two millions upon those docks; but, when the hon. member made that com- 537 plaint, he ought to have remembered, that this work was undertaken for the purpose of saving a sum of ten millions, the estimated expense of works proposed to be erected at Northfleet. He should only further observe, that if unfortunately this country should be again involved in hostilities, it would be found that advantage had been taken of every invention necessary to maintain the naval superiority of Great Britain.
After a short conversation, the several resolutions were agreed to.