§ Mr. Huskisson moved the order of the day, for the House to resolve itself into a Committee on the Navigation-act, with a view of enabling government to carry into effect the stipulations of the treaties lately entered into between Great Britain and the republics of La Plata and Colombia. In each of these treaties, stipulations had been introduced, that, for a certain term of years, ships not built within these two new states should, nevertheless, be recognized by Great Britain as their national ships. It was generally known, that by the navigation laws, foreign ships were only allowed to bring their own national produce to this country, without incurring additional duties: that is, they were not allowed to be the carriers of the produce of countries, other than their own, except on payment of an extra impost. But when these new republics had passed into a state of independent existence, in opening a commercial intercourse with them, it was obviously impossible to apply to them this part of the provision of the navigation laws; for the parent states had so entirely prevented their being in any condition to form a commercial marine, that when they had eventually succeeded in becoming independent states they had no trade, and, consequently, no ships. If in this state the navigation laws were to be enforced against them, their produce must be exposed to the extra duties, from the circumstance of their necessities compel- 360 ling them to have it exported in ships not of their own building. It was, therefore, to relieve them from this harsh provision, in the opening of their commerce with Great Britain, that stipulations were made in these treaties, which, for a limited number of years, until they could build shipping, allowed them to trade to England in foreign vessels, upon the terms of a national marine. The only alteration now proposed in the navigation laws, was to legalize this provision, in favour of the states of La Plata and Colombia, making at the same time such arrangements as would require the due proportion of bona fide native crews. His proposed measure, besides these alterations, was also meant to give the Crown a prospective power of making similar arrangements with other states that might establish independent governments under the same circumstances. His intention was, to move for leave to bring in a bill.
Mr. Robertsonstrongly condemned this miscalled and delusive system of reciprocity, but which was, in point of fact, no reciprocity whatever. They were now called upon to admit French ships into their own trade.
§ Mr. Huskisson—I did not say a word about French ships, which have nothing to do with the present question.
Mr. Robertsoncontended, that measures of this kind, which were every day pressed forward by government, shewed a total absence of that high national feeling which had influenced the councils of Great Britain, until these late times in which they lived had cast a new light upon the whole range of their commercial policy. It was a delusion to call the present project one of reciprocity; for England, overloaded with taxes as she was, was giving away a decided national advantage, without receiving the slightest equivalent. The repeal of so essential a part of the navigation laws must have the speedy effect of throwing the trade of these new states into the hands of foreigners of all nations, who would flock to these republican governments, where they could soon acquire the rights of citizenship, and establish them selves with sufficient shipping; which could be obtained, from their greater exemption from municipal burthens, at one half the expense at which the British could provide the same marine. Thus the carrying trade of Colombia, instead of being kept by England, would be flung into the hands of foreigners, contrary to the na- 361 tional policy of former times. Thirty years ago, no British minister would have dared to have made such a proposition to parliament; and, so opposed was it to the wish of the people, from one end of the country to the other, that he hoped the time was not far distant when no minister would presume to repeat such an application, in defiance of the direct interest and policy that had raised this country to a pitch of greatness, from which ministers were daily doing all in their power to pull it down. Impressed with this conviction, he would give his strongest opposition to the present bill. But, from the union between the government and the gentlemen opposite, opposition would be vain, and all he could do would be to raise his voice against so mischievous a career, and to deplore the infatuation which had led to it.
§ Mr. Heathcotewished to ask the right lion, gentleman opposite, whether the effect of these new measures had not been to diminish the number of British seamen, in the general British trade? From returns which he held in his hand, he saw that though the shipping had increased, the number of British seamen had diminished.
§ Mr. Huskissonwas unable to comprehend to what relaxation of the navigation laws the hon. gentleman alluded. The great principle of the navigation laws; namely, that the shipping of other countries trading to England, should be confined to the conveyance of their respective commodities, unless on the payment of additional duties, remained the same. With respect to the decrease of the seamen, he was not prepared, off hand, to explain it, if it were a fact. In time of peace it was probable that the commercial interests, though they had increased their shipping, had not, in the same degree, augmented their number of seamen. They might have economized in the latter, and perhaps had done so. There was, however, no alteration in that provision of the navigation laws which required the master and two thirds of the crew to be British subjects.
§ Mr. Humewished to ask the right hon. gentleman whether he meant to redeem the pledge given last session, relative to a reduction in the duty on timber, and other articles imported for the purpose of shipbuilding. When he and others, last session, agreed to the reciprocity duties bill, they were assured that such a reduction would be effected, and it was on that ground that he supported the measure. 362 It was then clearly understood that all materials used in building and navigating our ships, which were transported from foreign countries, should have a reduced rate of duty affixed to them. The impression on his mind was, that if ministers did not remove the heavy duties on timber used in ship-building, as well as on canvass, cordage, and various other articles of a similar description, this country would lose her mercantile navy; and on the existence of that mercantile navy depended the equipment of our ships of war. We had now 500 vessels of war; a greater number than was possessed by all the maritime states of Europe beside, and infinitely more than the exigencies of the country could require. If ministers were correct in keeping up shipping to this extent, it was right that the House should inquire whether they were taking proper measures to secure an ample supply of seamen. For his own part he thought that the mercantile navy was sinking. With this impression, he wished to know, whether it was the intention of ministers to take off the duty on timber used in ship-building, on hemp, and on other articles required in the mercantile navy? The pledge given last year had not been redeemed, and the interest of the country was likely to suffer in consequence.
Sir R. Fergussonsaid, that the effect of the present system would be, that the whole of the ship-building would be carried to other places. Merchants would send to Canada or New Brunswick for the tonnage they required. The number of ships constructed in those ports every year, was so great, that it was difficult to procure sailors to man them. When, therefore, the merchants of this country sent a vessel out to any of those ports, it was customary for the men to leave her, and to go on board some of the newly-built vessels, which they navigated to England at a great advance of wages.
§ The House having resolved itself into a committee,
§ Mr. Huskissonobserved, that the position relative to the connexion of this country with certain of the South American states, which had recently been laid downby the hon. member for Grampound, was manifestly erroneous. Treaties had been entered into with Colombia and Buenos Ayres, states which could not, by possibility, have any shipping of their own at present; and his object was to relieve them, under these peculiar circum 363 stances, from the injurious operation of the navigation laws, if they sent their produce to this country in ships not belonging to them. Would it not be a most strange thing, when this country had negotiated a fair and equitable treaty of commerce with those powers, if ministers were to turn round and say, "We will still adhere to our old code of laws, and, as you have no shipping of your own, you will be precluded from having any commerce whatever?" The hon. member was bound to show how this could be done with justice. How could we adhere, under these circumstances, to the strict letter of the navigation laws. How could we enforce this provision of the navigation laws against states which had no shipping of their own, and at present no possible means of building any?
§ Mr. Humerepeated, that the mercantile navy of England was rapidly declining. In 1822, the amount of foreign shipping brought into this country was 469,000 tons; in 1823, 582,000 tons; in 1824, 759,000 tons; and last year it was upwards of 1,000,000 tons; while the shipping of the country remained stationary. In his view of the case, this was owing to the impediments thrown in the way of the ship-builders, by the heavy duties laid on all the articles used in building vessels. He therefore wished to know whether it was or was not intended to grant a reduction of duties on those materials?
Mr. Robertsonsaid, that this was another proof of the mischievous consequences of the theoretic system on which the legislature was proceeding. Let the government take off all the taxes, and then there would be something like reciprocity between this and other countries. If this were done, we could compete with—ay, and beat—the French, the Prussians, the Russians, or any other maritime power. But, while this immense load of taxes was continued, it was impossible that what was denominated reciprocity could prevail. Providence seemed, in an especial degree, to come to the assistance of this nation, when ill-judged measures threatened to injure it most severely. In the present instance, the internal commerce of England had increased amazingly. The trade with Ireland, in particular, was greatly extended; and the consequence was, that the decay of our foreign commerce was not attended with such ill effects as must otherwise proceed from its diminution. He strenuously ad- 364 vised the legislature to cultivate the commerce of Ireland. Many of the measures which had recently been adopted by the legislature, were, he thought, exceedingly objectionable. They had gone too far in removing the sinking fund, to the manifest detriment of the public creditor. Perhaps, at the end of the year, notwithstanding all their fine theories, they would not have means sufficient to pay the dividends.
§ The resolution was agreed to, and leave was given to bring in a bill, "to give effect to Treaties of Commerce with countries in America, not at present provided with National Shipping."