Mr. Alderman Waithmansaid, he laboured under considerable difficulty in bringing forward the motion, of which he had given notice for that evening. If he had to bring forward a motion upon which honourable gentlemen present could feel no observations personal to themselves, he should feel no such difficulty; but he felt it impossible to enter upon this subject without making allusions and remarks which must not only be felt by honourable members themselves, but also create a considerable sensation in the minds of their friends. He wished it, however, to be understood, in the outset, that in the observations which he should feel it his duty to make, it was not his intention to confine himself to one individual, or any number of individuals. And here he begged to set himself right in the opinion of the House, with respect, to an hon. gentleman opposite, as he felt that he had not been fairly dealt with in being called upon to come forward with a specific charge against that hon. gentleman (Mr. Brogden). Indeed, he felt that, upon a subject of such magnitude, it would be invidious to bring a direct charge against any particular member of that House. The only reason why he alluded more especially to the hon. gentleman was, because he had, for some time, held an important office in the appointment of that House, and because he was again to be proposed to fill it. Feeling this, and 244 knowing from public report that the hon. gentleman had been connected and mixed up with several companies of a questionable nature, he thought an inquiry ought to take place previously to his re-appointment to his office. But his views did not rest here. He looked higher: he wished to have the whole question of Joint-stock companies inquired into, both as they regarded the interests of the public, and the interests, and honour, and character of that House. It was with this view, and with this view only, that he meant to bring the general question under the consideration of the House.
In looking to the circumstances which had taken place within the last two years, it was impossible, even for the most clearsighted persons, to form more than an imperfect idea of what had been done; indeed, many honourable members were, up to that moment, ignorant of the extent and variety of the transactions, with respect to Joint-stock companies, which had taken place within that period. Gentlemen who resided for the most part of the year in the country, and young members who had not turned their minds to the subject, would be surprised to learn, that, in the course of the last two or three years, no less than six hundred Joint-stock companies had been set on foot, requiring a capital of 300,000,000l. and upwards, to carry them into effect. Now, he spoke rather confidently upon this subject, as he was not without authority for his assertions. The House must be aware, that an inquiry, such as that into which he had been obliged to enter, could not have been made without much labour, in order to find out the different companies, the directors, and managers of them; their various objects, the deposits paid upon them, the premiums to which they had severally risen; their present value, &c. &c. But it was impossible that he could have gone through such an inquiry without aid. He had received much assistance; and he trusted that the facts obtained were in such a state of forwardness as to be in a short time laid before the public. When he stated that six hundred Joint-stock companies had come out within a certain period, he wished it to be understood, that many of them vanished almost immediately; not, however, before some money had been obtained for the shares in very many instances; and in those cases the parties suffering 245 could obtain no redress, because the transactions were in themselves illegal. But there were now before the public more than three hundred Joint-stock companies of various kinds, of which thirty were engaged, or to be engaged, in British or Foreign mining; these thirty alone taking a capital of 25,000,000l. to carry them into effect. This was enough to show the House the immense sums which had been abstracted from circulation, and which, he ventured to assert, had contributed more to the severe pressure of distress which they had all felt, than the corn-laws, the currency, or any other circumstance to which that distress had been ascribed. It was throughout a system of delusion and fraud, practised upon the weak and credulous, by the artful and designing. In mining alone (he spoke in round numbers, and only upon a calculation made three weeks since), there were, as he had already stated, thirty companies requiring a capital of 25,000,000l., and upon which payments to the amount of 5,200,000l. had been already made. Adding to this a rough average of the premiums on shares, which he would take at 9,000,000l., it would make a total of 14,200,000l. Now, the present value of these shares (if, indeed, they could at all be sold) was 2,400,000l.; so that, in the event of such a sale, there would be a clear loss to the public of 12,000,000l. or thereabouts. The House would from this form some idea of what the total loss to the public must be. It might be said, that this money was not all lost by one description of people, and that all the shares had not been sold. But there was the mischief of which he complained. Some of the shares had been kept back, on purpose to give a fictitious value to the others. It was in this that the trickery of the transactions consisted. If a man bought a lottery ticket, and wished to gamble in that way, he knew what he was about. He felt that he was risking 20s. for about 10s., and that a part of the money so lost would go to government; but here was gambling of the very worst description— gambling, where a man must lose without the chance of gaining. It might be said, that this money only changed hands; but it should be remembered, that if shares were declared at one time worth 100l., that 100l. might be successively lost by ten different people. Again, it was said that the present holders 246 of shares were the losers. This was not the fact. On the contrary, it not unfrequently happened, that persons sold when shares were at a great premium— in one instance, 1,200l. or 1,400l.— and bought in again when they had reached their greatest depression, perhaps 40l. or 50l.; and in this way they were, in many instances, the present holders. In some cases, too, where persons had paid so much as 14,000l. they were cut off from being shareholders, in consequence of not having paid the third deposit; and in addition to this there had been a loss of 30,000l. in the shape of premiums. "True," said certain persons; "but it is of little consequence, as the money taken out of the pockets of one set of speculators has found its way into the pockets of another set; and so, as a national matter, there is no loss." But, if he understood any thing of government, it was the duty of the legislature to protect the foolish and the simple, the silly and the ignorant, against the arts and insidious devices of the crafty and the knavish. He had one further observation to make before he left this part of the subject. Supposing an average were struck of the twelve millions— supposing it were taken at only half that amount— it was to be recollected, that the work of gambling was going on every day and hour. Sometimes shares rose rapidly, and fell as suddenly, in the course of twenty-four hours; so that the system was carried to an enormous and incalculable extent, spreading over four, rive, or six millions of money. He had left out of his calculation, perhaps two or three hundred other Joint-stock companies, probably of a worse description, but, separately, not of much magnitude or importance. His object was, to examine the injury the system had produced: and he called upon the House to enter upon an inquiry into the nature and origin of the companies, as a part of its public duty. If no satisfaction could be afforded for the injury already sustained, it was time, at least, to look round upon the distressing scene, and to consider of some measure of security and protection for the future.
It was not his intention to enter minutely into the great variety of schemes which had recently been brought forward. If he confined himself to a very few of the many which were of the same nefarious character, he hoped it would be suf- 247 ficient to induce the House to acquiesce in his motion. Before he went into this branch of the subject, he wished to state, that the same individuals were, in many instances, connected with a vast number of projects. Their motives were certainly laudable, if their own assertion were to be taken undisputed: their charity, benevolence, compassion for distress, seemed to be unbounded; and, with the view of alone promoting the general happiness and welfare of mankind, they had contrived these undertakings. Persons of rank, members of both houses of parliament, had been prevailed upon to lend their names and support; and, no doubt, their intentions were equally humane and disinterested. About a dozen or fifteen individuals formed the members of a much greater number of undertakings: one was a director in this company, an auditor in that, and a banker in a third: and so they rung the changes between them. To step aside a moment from the main question; there were two mining companies, whose deposits, losses, &c. could not be stated at less than a million and a half each; one of these was the Pasco-Peruvian, regarding which there had formerly been some discussion in that House. It was instituted by the same parties who originated several Gas Companies, the Equitable Loan Company, and the Arigna Mining Company; and they were all put in motion at the same time. The Pasco-Peruvian shares came out, as it was termed, at 16 per cent premium, and some of the newspapers, at the time, called the parties who gave it fools, which produced a most indignant reply from the directors, showing that the shares were of almost incalculable value, and that the undertaking held out the most promising prospects. Nevertheless, this company had come to its end, and might, therefore, be spoken of with the less reserve. None of the pompous descriptions and promising prospects had been realised. Others were either thinking of their last moments, or were breathing their last gasp, and people began to be aware how ridiculously they had been deluded. The Pasco-Peruvian shares, on which 5l. had been paid, were brought out at 16 per cent premium, and they rose to 49½ per cent premium: up to the present moment, 15l. had been paid, and that, added to 49l., made 64l. Yet, what was considered the actual worth of the shares at this day in the market? 248 Only 1l. 15s.! Ten thousand shares were issued; which, if sold at 64l. each, would produce 640,000l.; and, deducting the supposed value of the shares at present, the nett loss would amount to more than 620,000l. The Imperial Gas Company was established under the auspices of the same individuals. The concern was probably carried on in the same counting-house; and he believed, that a great many of the schemes, respecting which he prayed the interference of the House, had been got up by the office firesides of the same establishment.
Looking to the case of the Arigna Mine Company, that concern was, certainly, a trifling one, compared with others which he had mentioned, or should mention; but though small in extent, yet, looking to the conduct of those by whom it had been directed, its sins would be found not to stand second to any. In the first place, the House should be told, that the capital of the company was to consist of 300,000l. raised by 6,000 shares of 50l. each; the first deposit paid being 5l. on each share. As soon as these shares came out, which was about the middle of December, 1824, they rapidly got up to 4l. premium. Then, in the beginning of January to 8l., and, afterwards, in one day, from 8l. to 26l.; settling on that same day again, down to 22l. After which, they kept as high as 16l. or 18l., to April, and then declined. Now, the House would not believe, that that extraordinary rise from 8l. to 26l. in one day, could have occurred without some trick or contrivance on the part of the Directors. The gross amount paid for the whole 6,000 shares, in deposits, had been (12l. a share), 72,000l. The amount paid in premium, taking sales at 25l., was more than twice 150,000l., making the whole sum paid for the shares 222,000l.; the value of the whole shares at present was 12,000l.; which left a loss upon the scheme of 210,000l. It appeared, by documents to which the parties who signed them had sworn, that this Arigna company had, at a certain time, been seeking an act of parliament to establish it. And though he wished, in discussing the question before the House, to avoid as far as possible, all allusion to any particular individual, after what had been urged upon him, he felt it would be impossible for him entirely to overlook the hon. gentler-man (Mr. Brogden). Yet, at the same time, he had no hesitation in declaring 249 that, to single him out in particular would be an act of grievous injustice, because there were other individuals connected with similar transactions, not only equally culpable, but a great deal more so. And he fully believed that if the House went into an inquiry seriously upon the subject, and if the government fairly assisted—an aid without which it would be nearly useless to attempt any thing— if this were done, his entire belief was, that it would be impossible for some of the individuals concerned to continue to hold seats in that House.
With respect to the hon. gentleman (Mr. Brogden), he had felt himself compelled to go as far as he had gone. He had intended originally to have observed upon that hon. gentleman's share in these transactions, on the occasion of its being moved that he should take his usual place in the chair of the committees of that House, and he thought that the mere facts which had come before the public, taking the statement of the hon. member himself against them, and giving him the fullest credit for the accuracy of it, would have justified him in that course. The directors of these companies were trustees. It was their duty to manage the property and guard the interests of others; and they ought to be men of character and probity; in short, such men, as that those who placed confidence in them would not merit the epithet of fools for so doing. The directors or trustees of the Arigna company, having these important functions to discharge, the first question they put was not, how can we best fulfil the trust reposed in us?—but how are we to be paid? They were told, that they were to be allowed two or three guineas for attending to do nothing, and six or seven guineas for writing their names in a book, and doing, at the utmost, half an hour's work. But that was net sufficient: their ambition seemed to have over-leapt minor considerations; and having received this answer to the inquiry, how they were to be paid, they replied, "Oh, no: this will never do— we must be paid in shares." To this the reply was, that so much had been recently said about the partition of shares among directors, that such an arrangement was impossible: a sum of money was, therefore, pointed out, and they were desired to help themselves to as much as they thought proper. Was this a fit course for any man to pursue? Did it become a member of 250 that House, having the care and disposal of the property of the proprietors of the company, to put 1,047l. into his pocket, and coolly walk away to his seat in the chair of the committees of that House without investigation? The hon. member had received, by his own admission, a sum of 1,047l. That sum had passed into the hon. gentleman's pocket. Where did he imagine it had come from? It had come from "the sale of shares." Of what shares? What profit upon shares could by possibility have accrued? The works of the company were not yet in operation. What profit was the hon. gentleman entitled to? As yet he had done no duty. The workman was worthy of his hire; but, in this instance, no work had been done.
Admitting, however, that no fraud had been committed, and that the hon. gentleman had possessed himself of the money in a way liable to no reproach, the hon. alderman said, he rested his claim for inquiry upon a stronger ground; and, whether the 1,047l. were derived from a division of plunder to the extent of 15,000l., or from the sale of shares, made no difference. The petitioners, whose case he had just laid before the House, said, that they could draw no distinction of the kind; nor could he. In some cases, the directors, in fact, had no shares, and had paid no deposits: yet, when the public in general neglected to pay their deposits, the shares were forfeited, and the directors applied the money to their own purposes; while the parties had no remedy, inasmuch as the whole transaction was illegal. In an action brought against a company, of which the hon. gentleman was a director, the chief justice had declared, not only that such associations were contrary to an existing act of parliament, but illegal at common law. He had stated broadly, that such schemes left to persons who were defrauded, no remedy; that their effect was to create undefined liabilities, and to give a scope and opportunity to gaming, which would involve thousands of persons in ruin. And then, after this, the hon. gentleman, it would be recollected, had been a party in this very company— had been implicated, as it were, in all the observations so made. What was to be said of a set of legislators — makers of laws by office and by profession— who should deliberately go on breaking those laws which they had thus strenuously laid down, and which it was their duty, of all men living, to uphold and 251 defend? Were men who had so acted fit to sit in the chair of that House, or to preside in any public assembly? If the House should come— which he thought was impossible— to a decision that they were fit, he would venture to say, that no disinterested men throughout the kingdom, would acquiesce in its opinion. He meant to urge no complaint of apathy against his majesty's ministers. The question was not one of party; both sides of the House were implicated in it. His object was only to do his duty towards the public; but he was rather sorry that government had not itself, in the first instance, taken the question up.
The Arigna Company, however, it would be recollected, had been looking for an act of parliament. When first Mr. Flattery came over to England, the intention had been, to put the 15,000l., afterwards divided among the directors into a smaller job— into the pockets of only three or four. This plan, however, was abandoned, because it was supposed possible that the rest of the party might find out the trick, and have some little hankering after the money. It was consequently resolved to divide it into smaller shares; and, as some parties for whom it was intended would not take it, and others were abroad, their proportion was left in the hands of one honourable gentleman. One member of that House, received 2,500l. of the money, besides 1,225l. for shares sold, although he had not paid a single deposit upon them. This fact was sworn to by the clerk of the company [cries of "name, name !"] He referred to the chairman, sir William Congreve, upon whose shares 375l. for premium was due, and to this hour had not been paid. The House would see how the matter stood. An act of parliament was in progress, and a member of that House, who was to be called upon to decide upon it, put this large sum into his pocket, while his brother-in-law obtained 1,000l., and another of his agents 1,000l. more. How many other agents he might have, and how much they obtained, he knew not.
Under these circumstances, was not the House in honour bound to do something to free itself from this reproach? The presenting of the 1000l. to the Speaker of the House, sir John Trevor, in the year 1694, when the city of London wanted to secure the passing of the "Orphan's bill," was nothing compared to 252 it.* The case of Mr. Hungerford, who received twenty guineas at the same time, as chairman of the committee to which the bill was referred, for which act he was expelled the House—was trifling to it. That expulsion had been declared to be done purposely to vindicate the honour of parliament; and, would the House agree that it was fit to sit down contented, with imputations upon any of its members like those now brought forward by the voice of the whole country.
But these charges were not confined to the case of the Arigna Mining company. There was another company, to which he would for a few moments call the attention of the House— a company in which thirty-four members of the House of Commons had held among them 12,000 shares— an actual majority of the members who sat upon the committee for passing the bill, being composed of directors and shareholders ! This was the Equitable Loan Company. It had been said that he was hard upon private committees. Why ! was it possible to find language strong enough to express indignation at such proceedings? But he had not done yet: he had said that thirty-four members of parliament had held 12,000 shares: and out of these thirty-four there were actually some, who having sold part of their shares when they were at a premium, refused to pay the deposits upon what remained after they had fallen to a discount. After gaining largely upon all that they could sell of the shares, these holders refused to pay up upon those which they could not sell.
Repeated cries of "name," and one or two members on his own side of the House spoke to the hon. alderman. Let hon. gentlemen have a moment's patience. He would be glad if they would let him alone. He could do but one thing at a time. But, as an hon. friend near him had observed on a former occasion, he would hit the right nail on the head, if they would let him. Part of the complaint of the petitioners to the House was of this illegal traffic in shares; but he must dwell for a moment longer upon the proceedings, peculiarly, of the Equitable Loan Company. The directors of that scheme had begun by holding out to the public, that they themselves were, all men of the highest honour, consequence, and character; and that
* See Parliamentary History, vol. v. p. 907.253 they were engaged in a cause which was of the first importance to the lower classes of this country; and by this last device it was, no doubt, that they had been enabled to gain the high patronage of the duke of York. Every one knew the general benevolent feelings of that illustrious individual; and those gentlemen had been perfectly well aware of the side in which he might be advantageously assailed. On the 2nd of April, however—it ought rather to have been upon the 1st— the first flourishing of trumpets in favour of the company had been blown in the shape of a long paragraph in one of the newspapers, stating the general oppression of the poor, and the universal rascality of the pawnbrokers; and declaring that a new institution was about to be formed for the purpose of leading money, in small sums, to the lower classes, which should present claims of a peculiar description to the attention of the humane and public-spirited. Thus the thing was brought forward, the House would see, as a measure of charity— a system of which the poor were to reap the benefit. Now only let hon. gentlemen look to the latter part of the prospectus, and they would see that a gain sufficient to remunerate the whole of the directors— not a very trifling gain, therefore, the House would be inclined to think— was expected to be made "from the sale of the unredeemed pledges." Here was charity then! Here was kindness and pity for the poor! to propose extracting their miserable property from them at so low a rate, that large sums were to be made by the re-sale of it. This was not all. In the first instance it was held out to the public as an inducement to them to embark their money, that each of the directors of the company would be required to hold three hundred shares. As soon as the shares were at a premium, and money could be made by selling them, the three hundred necessary to be held was dropped to fifty. There was more done yet. There was a statement published at that time, that three thousand shares more having been applied for than could be granted, it was necessary to take a week to settle the distribution to the public. At that same time forty-five individuals, directors or officers of the scheme, had divided 31,500 of the shares among them. There were only 40,000 in all. The remaining 8,500 it was not very well known how they had been disposed of, 254 but probably among friends of the authors of the scheme, or people, who wrote in the newspapers to support it. This was not all; for at that same time they declared, that 1l. on each share being 40,000l., had been paid down. Now at a public meeting held since, it appeared that 10,000l. of this supposed original payment was deficient. It appeared yet further, that there were three hundred shares on which two directors had not paid their deposits, although the qualifying amount to hold that rank had been reduced not only from three hundred to fifty, as he had already stated, but after that to twenty. Nay, the very shares upon which an hon. member originally qualified as a director, were now in his pocket, and he believed they were pretty nearly the only shares of the kind [here the hon. member took them out and showed them to the House] which had ever found their way into that situation. From the first, his opinion had been, that that Equitable-Loan-Company bill could never pass through the House. The promoters of it had been sanguine: they said, "Oh, yes, we are sure to get it through. We have got the ministers, and we have got a good many of the opposition, and "—they made the last communication with a peculiar wink— "we have got more— we have secured the Saints" [a laugh]. They relied upon this advantage, and the parliamentary directors were attached to the undertaking precisely in proportion to the sum of money they obtained for the shares which were given to them. One hon. member, indeed, had declared—"so help him Heaven!" that he was ignorant of any thing improper in any of the transactions, and that he was bound by his office to watch over the interests of the proprietors. In spite, however, of all their expectations, that bill — which had been but a sample of too many others which were to follow it— had not been carried.For the whole subject—if a committee should be appointed, he believed that the evidence which was already prepared, and in a state to be brought forward, would relieve the members of it from a good deal of labour to which, in ordinary cases, they were subjected. Let the committee report, if it so pleased the House, from time to time; to declare whether or not they deemed it necessary to pursue their task; and whether they found, or did not rind, the evils of the general system as great as 255 had been represented. All he hoped was, that, in an object so important to the country as this was, he should not be turned round upon any technical objection. All he wished was, for inquiry, and for justice; and if a committee was named, it was equal to him of what members it was composed, so that it was selected from among those gentlemen who had no personal interests at stake, or were likely to have been concerned in any of the companies, into the conduct of which they were to inquire. If the hon. gentleman (Mr. Brogden) could show him that he was wrong in his view, he should be most ready to withdraw every thing which, it would then have been under an erroneous impression, he had stated. No man in the House would be better pleased than he should be to see the hon. gentleman relieved from every imputation. At the same time, it was one thing to acquit an hon. member of imputations, and another to place him in the Chair of the committees of that House. After apologizing for so long intruding upon the patience of hon. members, and thanking them for their indulgence, he should sit down by moving, "That a Select Committee be appointed to inquire into the origin, management, and present state of the Joint Stock Companies which have been formed during the years 1824, 1825, and 1826, and to report the same, with any special matter touching the conduct of any Members of this House."
§ Mr. Brogden, with much earnestness of manner, begged leave to second the motion.
§ The Speaker, after having put the question, said, that the name of sir William Congreve having been mentioned, as being concerned in certain Joint Stock companies, he wished to state, that he had received a letter from sir William, inclosing medical certificates of his inability to attend the House in his place this day, on account of ill health.
Mr. SecretaryCanning assured the hon. alderman, that if he announced his intention of moving an amendment to the motion before the House, it was not with any desire to obstruct the object which that proposition had in view, but rather to place it upon a more practicable footing than it stood at present. The hon. alderman had observed, but a few minutes since, to some friends who were suggesting something to him, "that he would be 256 glad if they would let him alone, for he could do but one thing at a time." Now, he thought that principle so sound a one, that he wished it, if possible, to be acted upon throughout the transaction. Thinking that the hon. alderman had laid before parliament a sufficient case to warrant one specific inquiry, to that inquiry he was perfectly ready to give his consent; but he wished that to that one inquiry, in the first instance, the attention of the House should be confined. He did not mean thereby to preclude any further inquiry, if the House should afterwards think it right to enter into any; but, in the beginning, he was perfectly sure it would be better, on all accounts, to confine its attention to a single object. And with this view— the hon. alderman's motion being for a select committee to inquire into the origin and management of the joint-stock companies which had been formed during the years 1824, 1825, and 1826, with power to report any special matter connected with the conduct of members of that House— he should propose, as an amendment, to leave out the words "Companies formed during the years 1824, 1825, and 1826," and substitute in their place, "The Arigna Iron and Coal Mining Company." In suggesting this alteration, he might add, that neither he, nor those with whom he acted, felt the slightest disposition to screen from exposure any parties guilty of misconduct. If the purpose of the hon. alderman were practical good, he seemed disposed to launch on so wide an ocean, that even if he ever arrived at the end of his voyage of discovery, it would be prolonged to such a distant date, as to deprive the inquiry of its most material advantages. Now, he was desirous of steering for one point in the first instance, and afterwards, if it were found expedient to proceed in quest of new adventures. As at present framed, it was impossible to agree to the motion, since its terms would include many Joint-stock companies not in the contemplation even of the hon. alderman himself. Many persons of the most unimpeachable characters had embarked in speculations of this description, for the most irreproachable ends. Companies for rail-roads, piers, harbours, gaslights, and many other laudable objects, had been established, during the years mentioned in the motion: and into these he presumed it was not intended to carry the investigation, He did not apprehend 257 that the hon. alderman meant to cast any imputation upon the parties who had engaged in these useful speculations.
§ Mr. Canningrepeated, that at some future time he should not resist inquiry into the origin and management of other companies, if a case at all like that against the Arigna Company could be established, in the first instance. Now, enough had passed in the matter of that company, to lead the House to a grave suspicion that there had been in the conduct of that company matter for inquiry. The allegations against it had been distinct. They had been urged with strong and decided epithets, by those who supported the accusation; and, on the part of the defence, there had been an admission of such conduct as it was necessary that the House should examine into. By the course which he took, he did not mean to prejudge the question as to any case; but he was bound to say that, with respect to the other companies which the hon. alderman had mentioned, he did not think that he had made out any such case as against the Arigna company; or a sufficient case, indeed, to institute inquiry. But, whatever was done must be done by specific motions; because he was quite sure that, by going into the general inquiry, the hon. alderman would only merge his own object in a mass of impracticable details. For himself, he was perfectly ready to go into an inquiry upon the distinct charge against the Arigna company now; and afterwards he should be just as willing to receive another charge against any other company, as to which the same degree of conviction in his mind, that there had been mismanagement, should arise. But he could not consent to some of the propositions which had been relied on, in bringing forward this motion. He could not assent to the hon. gentleman's opinion, that this country was injured at home, and its character prejudiced in foreign countries, by these Joint-stock companies. He could not but say that he thought some of our Joint-stock companies conferred honour, as well as advantage, on the country. Some of our best and noblest institutions owed their origin to, and were supported by, Joint-stock associations. He had only to instance the Bank and East India Company. 258 He must dissent altogether from so much of the motion as went to inculpate, upon general and undefined charges, so large a number of distinguished and irreproachable individuals connected with them, and to consign them to unmerited reprobation. With respect to the names of the members whom the hon. alderman proposed to constitute the committee, a list of them had been put into his hands. Certainly they were very respectable; but, at the same time, he could not help remarking, that no less than fourteen, out of the seventeen, were of the hon. alderman's side in politics. The hon. alderman himself seemed to admit, that the greater number of sinners were on his own side; and it was on that ground that he objected to so many names from that side; for it was not exactly right that so many sinners should be appointed to try sinners. It was his wish, that the committee should be impartially chosen: so that, on the one hand, there might be none upon it whose fellow feelings might prompt them to screen guilt, or, on the other, whose indignation at these transactions might carry them beyond the boundaries of justice. The right hon. gentleman concluded by moving his amendment.
§ Mr. Brogdenrose. He said he was sure he might with confidence throw himself upon the indulgence of the House upon this, to him, most trying and momentous occasion. He had long had the honour of a seat in that assembly, and had long been honoured with its favour and confidence. Seldom, however, it. was, that he had occasion to intrude himself upon its notice, and never before now was he culled upon to defend his character and his honour, from a most serious charge, and that under circumstances the most difficult to meet and rebut. It was the weight of prejudice which had been created against him, made the struggle in which he was involved most unfair. He complained of the un-candid, and he had almost said, the most unfeeling manner, in which this subject had been brought forward by the hon. alderman; from which it was evident, that the design was, to make him the chief actor in the late schemes; to hold him out as the ostensible contriver, or main supporter of almost all of them; and to throw a burthen on his shoulders, which no man could bear, or could be expected to bear. He repeated, that he rejoiced at the prospect of this inquiry; 259 for he was confident that when the matter came before the committee, he should be able entirely and completely to clear himself from all blame. He rejoiced in the prospect of the appointment of the proposed committee, and his great anxiety was, that it should meet immediately. He earnestly hoped the committee would commence its labours without delay: for the House could not but be aware that, after the manner in which these charges had been brought forward against him by the hon. alderman, his feelings must be in a very harassed state, as long as the inquiry should be suspended. He was therefore most anxious that, when appointed, the committee should immediately proceed to business; and that the House would not allow the investigation to stand over till after the holidays. He repeated, that he rejoiced at the prospect of a speedy inquiry; for he felt that it would have been nearly impossible for him to exist for a month or two longer, in the agonized state of mind in which he then was, and had been ever since the subject had been mentioned in that House. The hon. alderman had, throughout, fixed upon him as the ostensible person in the transactions to which he referred, and had placed him in a situation, which rendered it necessary for him to go at some length into the history of his connexion with certain Joint-stock companies; for the hon. member had not been content with attacking Joint-stock companies in general, and the Arigna Mining company in particular, but had made him the particular object of personal attack, as if he had been the grand encourager of Joint-stock companies. That was not the case. He certainly had been no encourager of improper Joint-stock companies. He had been engaged in the direction of two or three Joint-stock companies, all of them of unexceptionable character, and useful to the public, except this miserable Arigna Mining company; and, whatever improprieties might have taken place in the management of the affairs of that company, he had been no party to any of those improprieties. He had been already on his trial respecting the transactions which had taken place in the management of that company; and before as competent a tribunal as any that could be appointed by that House. He had been tried by eminent merchants of London—men particularly conversant with affairs of 260 this nature, and with general business— and by them he had been entirely acquitted of any participation in those transactions which had been considered as deserving of censure. At a meeting of gentlemen of this description, a resolution had been proposed, and unanimously passed, stating, that he had not been at all implicated in the frauds which had been understood to have taken place. However, so far was he from deprecating the course taken by the House, that he entreated them to persevere in it. He rejoiced at it. He earnestly hoped that no time would be lost, in convening that tribunal; and he implored them not to leave him labouring under a stigma which nothing now, but their decision, could remove. This was not the time or occasion for going into his justification; and, in rising, he meant to do no more than to avow his readiness to render himself at the bar of whatever tribunal this House should appoint. Lest, however, it should appear that he was not in a condition in limine to meet the charges against him, he begged to be allowed to refer the House to some documents, which he trusted would place his innocence beyond doubt, in July 1825, upon the discovery of certain frauds in the management of the Arigna Iron company, a meeting extraordinary of the proprietors was called, in order to inquire into the misapplication of the company's funds. The committee sat immediately. Of these proceedings the first notice which he had, was a letter from the solicitor to the company, requesting his attendance at a public meeting, where charges for malversation were to be preferred against some of the directors. Their inquiries led to a resolution, among others, that neither himself, nor his friend Mr. Bent, nor Mr. Morgan, were in any way implicated in the frauds which the committee had detected. Shortly after this, there appeared in "The Times" newspaper, as malignant a libel as ever was published. It took no notice of the real official character of the gentleman who communicated the particulars to that journal, but left it to be inferred, that the writer was his (Mr. Brogden's) own solicitor. The hon. gentleman then went on to state, that on finding the conduct of this journal so unfair, he resolved that no rejoinder of his should be sent to that paper. The matter did not end there; for the com- 261 mittee above mentioned, moved by the injustice done to him in "The Times," had met, and had sent him a letter expressing their regret at the publication in "The Times," and giving it distinctly as their unanimous conviction, that neither himself nor Mr. Bent had any knowledge whatever of the misapplication of 15,000l. of the funds of the company, when they received the 1,047l. each. The committee afterwards agreed upon a resolution to be reported to a general meeting, and in that resolution the committee expressed their unanimous opinion, that when Messrs. Brogden and Bent had accepted the 1,047l. each, they thought that the money had arisen from the sale of shares, and were utterly and entirely ignorant at the time, that it had been withdrawn from the funds of the company; and that, when informed of the fact, they had done every thing in their power to promote a prompt and rigid inquiry into the transaction. This report was laid before a general meeting, and was unanimously confirmed. At a subsequent general meeting, held for the purpose of considering the propriety of excluding those who had really been concerned in the fraud, a resolution, acquitting him of all participation in it, was parried by 209 shareholders out of 216, the number of which the meeting consisted. In short, at four general meetings, his conduct throughout had been fully approved. So that no less than four general meetings of the proprietors of the Arigna Company had declared and affirmed their conviction of the integrity of his conduct. He begged to be understood as not appealing to the feelings of the House. He disclaimed any such intention. He should, however, implore of hon. members not to suffer themselves to be carried away by the prejudice that had been excited by the hon. alderman, against Joint-stock companies; but, indeed, the observations of the right hon. Secretary of State, had rendered any request of that nature superfluous. It had been said of him, that he had evinced a predisposition for that species of investment. He confessed that he had, from his earliest years, as a man of business, been connected with several Joint-stock companies, but in no instance with impure motives; and he now dared those who would insinuate the contrary to the proof. He had always deemed 262 them capable of rendering the most important service to the country; and had always thought investment in Joint-stock companies as legitimate a mode of employing capital as any other that could present itself. He did not mean to follow the hon. alderman throughout his speech: but he felt called upon to say a few words respecting the mining companies, against which so much prejudice had been raised. At home, they had been productive of great benefit. The foreign mining companies had been the cause of promoting, in an eminent degree, the interests of England. Their operations in South America had laid the foundation for that connexion between those countries and Great Britain, which promised to us such important advantages. The hon. member here appeared overcome with emotion, and, after a short pause, declared his inability to proceed further with his statement. He concluded by hoping, that the earliest opportunity for entering upon his defence would be afforded him. He implored not only the justice of the House, but its speedy justice; and had no doubt but it would be administered to him, and to the other hon. member, whose character had been inculpated by these charges. [Hear, hear!]
Mr. Alderman Waithmandisowned any sweeping censures on all Joint-stock companies. In what he had said he had excepted all those which, though of great and unquestionable usefulness, were of too great a magnitude to fall within the compass of individual capital. he also, excepted from all censure, those persons who had merely lent their names to such companies, from an opinion that by so doing they were promoting the interests of the public.
Mr. Fergussondissented from the motion of the worthy alderman, and approved of the amendment, because it appeared to him to be the most practical mode of obtaining the desired object; namely, that of enabling the hon. member who had just sat down to retrieve his character. He could not, however, agree with the right hon. Secretary, that this was the worst case that could have been selected. There were many of them which, from the published statements, for he was not in the country at the period when these schemes were in progress, appeared to him infinitely worse, and more iniquitous in their conduct, than that with which the hon. mem- 263 ber had been connected. He thought the character and honour of the House required that strict inquiry should be instituted into them, and he hoped the hon. alderman would, during the recess, employ himself in procuring such cases as would enable hon. members to declare their opinions respecting them; and he should add, that he, for one, would not skreen any man proved to have misconducted himself, while in connexion with any of these companies. It was extremely necessary that the light should be let in upon these transactions, no matter who had been engaged in them; and that no consideration should prevent the punishment of the guilty. It was hardly necessary for him to say, that the right hon. Secretary, and the other right hon. gentlemen on the same bench, should be, and he was sure would be, the last in that House to attempt to screen a delinquent from punishment.
Mr. Hobhousesaid, he could not but think the House and the country greatly indebted to the hon. alderman, for his industry and public spirit, in exposing the practices of these Joint-stock companies, and on making them the subject of fair and impartial inquiry. The House and the public were especially indebted to him for the statement that night. Thanks were also due to his majesty's ministers for the manner in which they had that night conducted themselves; and his only objection to them, with reference to this subject, was, that they had not taken up the matter, and done something in it at an earlier period. Still he thought, that the House and the public were obliged to them for the candour which they had displayed. The right hon. President of the Board of Trade had remarked, that he had, a considerable time ago, made a declaration against these Joint-stock companies, and pointed out the mischievous results to which they must lead. But, in reality, this declaration had been productive of little good; and he was convinced, that nothing short of a legislative enactment would put a stop to these abuses, and prevent their recurrence in future. Without a strong measure of that description, similar frauds would always prevail. He had, himself, in 1825, warned the House and the country of the mischievous nature of a number of these Joint-stock companies, and had endeavoured to impress upon the minds of members, and upon the public, the per- 264 nicious character of many of these transactions. It was disgraceful for any man to be concerned in these frauds and abuses, but it was particularly disgraceful in members of parliament to be at all connected with them. Gentlemen had come down to that House, lauding to the skies the wealth and riches of the South American States, and setting forth the vast advantages likely to result from the South American speculations. They said, that gold and silver were to be had there in such abundance, that the natives hardly knew what to do with the precious metals; and that a company had only to send out vessels with cargoes of coals, and bring back cargoes of silver spoons, or something of that kind. Now, what had been the end of these boasted speculations? Instead of producing all that wealth and prosperity which had been so loudly promised, they had almost all most shamefully failed. He ought to mention that, while he gave the hon. alderman all due credit for his exertions that night, he really thought it rather unfair to Mr. Brogden to name him particularly, without naming others, who certainly ought also to be named. This was but justice; since there certainly were others against whom suspicion was perhaps stronger than against Mr. Brogden. He concluded by again declaring, that the hon. alderman and the right hon. Secretary of State had deserved well of the House and the country for their conduct that night.
Mr. Attwoodobserved, that the hon. alderman had brought a great many sweeping charges against Joint-stock companies. But Joint-stock companies might be good; and therefore vague, general, and sweeping accusations against them did not deserve much attention. The injustice of denouncing such companies by wholesale had been sufficiently exposed by the right hon. Secretary. Certainly, in a country like this, he was not a little surprised to hear these united efforts of enterprising men branded as they had been; and he was equally surprised at the attempt to extort from these general denunciations a charge against any particular individual. He had listened with great attention to the speech of the worthy alderman, but had listened in vain for any precise or definite accusation. It contained abundance of vague charges, but few or no facts; and even these resting on proof by no means sufficient to impeach any man's 265 character. The first tangible charge upon the fare of this motion was that of misapplying 15,000l. of the funds of the Arigna Iron Company. But what was the proof of this? A petition presented that night to the House stated, that a part of this money was paid over to the late chairman of Ways and Means; but another petition, accompanied by an affidavit, which was presented a few evenings ago, denies that any part of this money was paid to Mr. Brogden. Now, which of these allegations was the true one? The next charge was connected with the Equitable-loan company. And what was that? Why, that a certain number of shares had been transferred to certain members of that House, which were not retained by them. These two charges, then, were the only ones capable of being twisted into substantial accusations against any individual member of that House. Therefore, it would seem, that the object of the hon. alderman was to charge the House generally. It was admitted, that many men of property and character were found connected with these Joint-stock companies. Hence it followed, that the mere fact of belonging to these companies was not of itself an imputation upon a man. As, then, the mere fact of trading was no reason why a man should be censured in that House, could it be said that this was a proper tribunal to investigate the private commercial dealings of all its members? What had they to do with it? Were they to infer bad conduct because of the connection of a member with these Joint-stock companies? Or would they presume that such connection was necessarily for fraudulent purposes? If so, then the right hon. President of the Board of Trade cannot be safe. So far back as the year 1822, he had been connected with one of these companies, but nobody doubted but it was because he thought them advantageous to the public, and because there were men amongst them of sound character and integrity. The worthy alderman said, that no member ought to be upon the committee, who was connected with any of these Joint-stock companies. Now, did not the hon. baronet know, that the present chairman of the Committee of Ways and Means was a member of a Joint-stock company; though, judging from the prospectus, it certainly did not seem to promise the most solid advantages [a laugh]. This proved the absur- 266 dity of these general charges and imputations—the absurdity of considering members of parliament at all disqualified, from the performance of his parliamentary duties, upon vague and sweeping allegations of their being connected with Joint-stock companies. The hon. alderman, among his other charges and imputations, had dwelt much upon the conduct of the buyers and sellers of shares. But what inference did the hon. alderman mean to draw from the buying and selling of shares? Shares might be bought and sold very innocently, on the part of the purchasers and sellers; and that circumstance alone could surely never be considered as any imputation on their characters. There was no more harm in buying or selling a share, than there was in purchasing or selling a shawl [a laugh]. A share or a shawl any man might buy or sell, if he did it fairly. But if he used improper means to give a fictitious value to the commodity, that would, indeed, be deserving of reprobation and punishment. The hon. alderman had adverted to certain cases of alleged abuses in these Joint-stock companies. It might be difficult to guard, in all cases, against abuses in these companies; but it was well known that a great many of the most beneficial works never could be carried on without them. There could be no doubt of the vast utility of canal navigation, and yet that most valuable work had been carried on by means of Joint-stock companies, and could not be carried on by any other means. Harbours also had been constructed by means of Joint-stock companies, and had, as every one knew, proved of the highest utility to the navigation and commerce o? the country. He might also mention the works for supplying cities with water, which had been carried on by means of Joint-stock companies, to the infinite convenience, advantage, and comfort, of the public. Then he might mention that great improvement the gas light. This, too, was the work of Joint-stock companies; and unless a Joint-stock company-had persevered, this great improvement would never have been carried into effect. It could only have been done by means of a Joint-stock company, and by great perseverance, and at an immense expense. He believed that little less than 300,000l. had been expended before they had been able to produce any thing else than a bad light; and yet, by the perseverance of a 267 Joint-stock company, the gas light had been brought to its present brilliant condition. The Insurance Joint-stock companies were also of great public utility, and yet were carried on by private individuals. He repeated, that nothing could be more absurd than these general, vague, and sweeping, imputations upon Joint-stock companies, and those who were concerned with them. The motives that had led many individuals to take part in the lately-formed Joint-stock companies were, he was convinced, in a number of instances, widely different from those which the hon. alderman had supposed to be those by which, of necessity, they must have been actuated. With respect, for instance, to some of the mining associations, to which, indeed, strong allusion had been made, he must protest against the general condemnation of these speculations. When it was considered that the working of a great portion of the South American mines had been feebly conducted, if not often paralysed, by the proverbial indolence of the Spanish agents, the supineness of the natives, and the imperfect and inadequate management of both, it was not unreasonable to suppose, that the extension and diffusion of British skill, capital, and enterprise, would be attended with the best success. Those who had embarked in the companies to which he referred were of opinion, that by an improved system of working the mines, they would obtain a great accession of the precious metals, by means of which they would lower their previous value, not only in Europe, but throughout the world, and thereby effect a solid advantage, to this country. This yielding of n greater produce from the mines, would have, inevitably produced the effect which he had just stated. The worthy alderman had informed the House a few nights ago, that during his mayoralty in 1824, a considerable number of fraudulent schemers had solicited his co-operation to promote the projects in which they were engaged, and that by yielding to their solicitations, he might have put thousands of pounds into his pocket, which, however, he had declined, from a persuasion of their iniquity. Now, all he could say to this was, that not a single one of these fraudulent speculators had ever besought him to bolster up their designs, or to join them in their iniquities. It was unfortunate for the hon. alderman, that they should have se- 268 lected him as a fit partner in their schemes. He confessed he should have been astonished if such persons had applied to him for his assistance, or if he had heard that they had applied with the same view to the hon. alderman (Thompson) opposite; and he was almost equally astonished to account why they should have gone to the hon. alderman who had brought forward the motion. It certainly was creditable to the hon. alderman, that he had shrunk from sharing in the speculations which he was invited to patronise [hear! and a laugh]. With regard to the Joint-stock companies for domestic purposes, he believed that many of them would prove highly beneficial. He referred particularly to the association for forming Provincial Banks in Ireland. If it was continued on the system originally adopted, he would venture to say, that that association alone would be productive of the greatest advantage, not only to the country within which its operations were to be conducted, but to the empire at large. He hesitated not to predict, that that association would, if continued on its present principles alone, more than counterbalance all the losses that had resulted from the failure of all the Joint-stock companies during the last year. Then, again, there were the general steam-navigation companies, which furnished a valuable acquisition to modern improvement. Now, of all these steam-vessel speculations, four out of five, if not nine out of ten, arose out of joint-stock establishments. In fact, there was no other way of promoting them: the work was too great for single hands, the capital too large for prudent enterprise: therefore, without these general associations, such great objects could not be achieved as were involved in these speculations. Were these steam companies, then, of no advantage to the community? Was it nothing to diminish and keep down the obstacles which opposed the steady intercourse between distant nations? Was it nothing to promote the more rapid interchange of commerce, which was admitted to be advantageous to all countries, but to none with so much certainty as Great Britain? He begged to apologize for trespassing upon the attention of the House; but when such a motion as this was made, indiscriminately casting imputations upon every man's character who had ever belonged to a Joint-stock company, he thought it right 269 to expose the fallacy of such unreserved denunciation. As to himself, he could safely say, that he was not aware of his having been ever engaged in a single company, which could be deemed derogatory to his station as a member of parliament. He cared, therefore, nothing for these general and sweeping accusations, although he must condemn a course of proceeding which went to stigmatize where it could not convict, and which treated with levity the character of others, exposing men to unjust stigma, by groundless and unworthy insinuations of an undefined and equivocal description [hear, hear !].
§ Sir Alexander Grantsaid, he rose to address the House, only in consequence of the allusion which the hon. gentleman who had just resumed his seat, had thought proper to make with respect to him. Ungrateful as he knew such explanations to be to the House at large, and disagreeable as they necessarily were to the member who had to offer them, he could not permit the occasion to pass without trespassing for a moment upon the attention of the House. The hon. gentleman had taken the pains to draw a distinction between those Joint-stock companies, which, being formed on a large scale, were calculated to be advantageous to the empire at large, and those of an inferior magnitude, which had been denounced as less entitled to public patronage and support. That, however, was not the question before the House. It was of much wider extent; but, narrowed as it was by the amendment of the right hon. Secretary, and after the personal allusion of the hon. member who had last spoken, he felt himself justified in addressing them. It was true that he was a director of a Joint-stock company for a few weeks. But as no list of that company had been advertized, he did not imagine that there was any member of that House, except those who were in the same situation as himself, who knew any thing about it [a laugh]. He was not aware, indeed he had not the slightest suspicion., that the general knowledge of the hon. member, extending as it did to every thing of the kind, could have produced that particular example. He would briefly state the circumstances under which he had become connected with this Joint-stock association. In the spring of 1825 it was proposed to him to join his name as a director of this company with 270 those of several persons of commercial eminence, and some of the highest rank. As he saw no objection to the project, he consented. He would inform the House what that project was. In the spring of the year 1825, it was proposed to him to be one of the directors of a company, in the prospectus of which he saw the names of many noble and honourable persons of the highest character. It would be in the recollection of the House (for he desired to be very explicit in his statement), that some time in the year before-mentioned, this country had been visited by the heads of the illustrious family which reigned over the Sandwich islands. Their Sandwich majesties had in fact sojourned in the metropolis for a short time, and the melancholy fate which had attended them had been a general source of grief. After that event, and when their minister and suite were returned to their own hemisphere, they were attended or accompanied by a Frenchman of the name of Rives, who shortly after left them, and repaired to Paris, bearing with him, as he said, an exclusive commission to empower persons to carry on a beneficial trade with the Sandwich islands (which he supposed, like other states, had their navigation laws and prohibitions), and he then endeavoured to dispose of the privileges, with which he said he was intrusted, among capitalists in the French capital. No way, however, could be found in Paris to get together a Joint-stock company for the proposed purpose, and the offer was transferred to this country, where the exclusive trade so far succeeded, as to be embodied in a prospectus, to be placed under the guidance of directors, one of whom he had already stated himself to have been, and to have attracted an investment of 20,000l. or 25,000l. Upon a close examination by the new company of the nature of the trade thus laid open to their exclusive control by the French agent, the most advantageous commodity which suggested itself for exportation from the islands was sandal wood, and this was to be sent to China [laughter]. While, however, this projected trade was maturing, two events occurred which rather damped the expected monopoly. One was, that the brother of an officer high in his majesty's service, an adjutant-general, had accidentally visited the Sandwich islands, and found that the story of the sandal wood had been very 271 much exaggerated; and next, that let the prospect of the new export be good or bad, the Frenchman had received no authority whatever to warrant his appropriation of it. This two-fold discovery, which came in quick succession, speedily determined the directors upon dissolving the company; and a noble friend of his and himself had exerted themselves to render the dissolution effective, after the duration of the establishment for only a few weeks. But he would tell the hon. member who had thought proper to introduce his name into this discussion what had been the conduct of the directors in this extremity. It was not to be supposed, that however short had been their operations, their proceedings could have been carried on for nothing, when it was known that they had secretaries and all the paraphernalia of doing business. Their expenditure, in fact, during the few weeks of their existence, amounted to from 2,000l. to 3,000l. How did the directors act under these circumstances? They argued thus: "We, the directors of this company, have, by lending our names to it, induced the public to take shares. We now find that we have acted under fallacious representations. Ought the public to pay for our mistakes? No: we lent ourselves to the fallacy, and it is our duty, therefore, to bear the onus." The company was dissolved. The loss was spontaneously divided among the directors, and the public received back every shilling they had subscribed [cheers]. There were those present, who could testify the truth of his statement, or correct him if wrong, by their contradiction. It was with the greatest pain that he had made this reference to his own case; but, after the allusion which had been so pointedly made to him, nothing on earth could have prevented him from promptly furnishing ibis explanation. He must say, however, that the allusion which had called it forth was most uncourtcous on the part of the hon. member [cries of "No, no"]. He said so, because the hon. member had not previously communicated his intention, and thereby afforded him the opportunity of a more accurate reference for the purpose of explanation, than the inconvenient opportunity of mere recollection at the moment was calculated to supply.
Mr. Attwoodsaid, in explanation, that nothing was further from his intention, in the allusion he had made, than to have 272 taken the hon. baronet by surprise. In fact, he had only lighted upon his name that morning in casting his eye over a printed list, which had been handed to him. The hon. baronet had, however, most satisfactorily acquitted himself of having inflicted the least injury upon the public, for certainly a more harmless or more innocent operation had never been performed, than that in which he had so candidly described himself to have been engaged
§ Mr. John Smithsaid, that as specific allusion had been made to the share he had had in some of these companies, he was bound to afford the best explanation which he could on this occasion. He admitted that for a number of years, he had been engaged in several Joint-stock companies, fire-offices, and insurance-offices, for example, and he could add, that while so acting he had never felt any thing but pride and satisfaction, nor had he ever taken a part in a single company, of which, in any sense, he ought to feed in the least degree ashamed. The worthy alderman who had introduced this subject—and he gave him full credit for purity of intention—had certainly indulged himself in unjust and unfair reflections of a sweeping nature. [A cry of "no."] He must reply "yes," for the worthy alderman had dealt out his imputations against all the members of parliament who had been, in any way, connected with Joint-stock companies. That among these speculations, there had been many which were formed upon false principles he readily admitted; but there were others of a very different description. With one in which he was engaged, the Real del Monte Association, he could assure the worthy alderman, that the directors, so far from feeling any indisposition towards inquiry, courted it, and he should be afforded every assistance for that purpose. It had been hardly formed, when the shares rose to a very great premium; a circumstance which he could assure the House had given the directors at the time the greatest concern; and he, as the chairman, was the instrument of publishing a notice, with the view of correcting any exorbitant expectations, which specified that the whole plan was an experiment, and only such; and this was done at the instant, to guard the public against too sanguine expectations of the result. He could also assure the House of a fact which was also commu- 273 nicated, and he could add had been likewise most religiously observed; namely, that no director had disposed of his shares. He had himself never sold one. These shares were at a premium still, and he had reasonable hopes that the whole system of the company would eventually work well and succeed, with the exception of one or two points. There was another company in which he had also been engaged, and could refer to with satisfaction, from a consciousness of the motives which had prompted him, and induced others, to engage in it, he meant the Australian company. That undertaking was specially under the patronage of his majesty's government. The remembrance of his connection with that company would be dear to him to the last moment of his existence. He could not, therefore, concur in the general invective uttered by the hon. alderman against all Joint-stock associations. That some had been projected by bad, very bad individuals, there was not the least doubt; but it was not because such companies had been formed, that the hon. alderman or any other man, was justified in dealing out such charges as he had made that evening. If he understood the meaning of the English language, the hon. alderman had attacked all who had been connected with Joint-stock companies, as men who had lent their names to fraudulent practices. The hon. alderman was so filled with this sentiment, that he had declared "he would drive that nail to the head." It was to be hoped, he would do as he had threatened; for those who had acted uprightly had nothing to fear. Allusion had been made to another company, of the principle of which he did not hesitate to avow himself a firm supporter. It was the Equitable-loan company. He knew that many most respectable persons were engaged in that concern. He had been himself one of the vice-presidents, although he had never interfered in its details, or attended the committees more than once, when he addressed the directors, and, said — "Gentlemen, you are wrong in taking so many shares to yourselves;" and after that, he had desisted from attending their meetings. Nevertheless, his decided opinion of the company was, and he had formed it after the closest examination of the whole business, that its establishment would have been of essential benefit to the lower classes of the community. The poor were the 274 objects of the society; and, although he knew he yielded in talents to the worthy alderman, yet in the promotion of their interests he would not concede to him any priority, and it was therefore that he felt interested in a plan which he believed would administer to their relief. He had inquired into the system of the Mont de Pieté in France, and if any institution of a similar nature were established in this country, he was convinced it would not only be attended with success for those who embarked in it, but also with great public advantage. The necessities of the poor were urgent and pressing. The means ought to be afforded them of procuring food, on the security of their little do-posits, with the least possible delay. It was melancholy to know that they were in a condition to require food, by pawning their property: but the fact was undoubtedly so, and he feared that, by the present laws, the business of pawnbrokers was not so well managed as it ought to be, and that their profits were greater than was just or necessary. The Equitable-loan company would have reduced those profits, but by no means materially injured the regular pawnbroking trade. Conscious of the fairness of companies so formed, he challenged inquiry into their system, and would afford every assistance in his power to their fullest development. He would add nothing further to what he had said respecting this company, but that many of (he persons concerned in it were individuals of as fair a character as the hon. alderman himself; and, after the language that the hon. alderman had used, with reference to that company, he trusted he would bring forward a separate motion for an inquiry into its proceedings. As to the revulsion which had taken place a year ago, no doubt much of it had arisen from the existence of a large surplus capital in different parts of the country, and that the mania which had arisen out of such a circumstance, had within the last two years been productive of great mischief. But, though this surplus capital had originated many absurd schemes, it had given birth to others of a most useful character. He had himself been applied to by more than fifty new companies, to become their banker; and he had as often refused, because he thought many of their schemes were wild and foolish, and sometimes doubted the integrity of the parties engaging in them. Recurring to the per- 275 sonal allusion which had been made to his share in these transactions, he should again declare, that he feared no inquiry. On the contrary, he challenged and courted the fullest investigation; and with respect to the character which had been given of the Equitable-loan company, he was convinced it was altogether unwarranted and exaggerated.
§ Mr. Huskissonsaid, that as an allusion had been made to him, it became his turn to explain what had been his conduct during the prevalence of the occurrences which were so much alluded to. The hon. member was, however, under some mistake or misapprehension, when he insinuated that he had had the least connexion with any of these speculations. He could assure him, that neither directly nor indirectly had he had the least share, or interest, in any company which had been formed in the years 1824, 1825, and 1826. He had, indeed, an interest in one of the oldest insurance companies in the country, but it had remained of the same amount during the last twenty years. It was not, however, because he held a particular situation under the government, that he felt himself disqualified from applying his private property to such beneficial purposes as fairly presented themselves to his view; but the fact was, that he had never thought of embarking in these speculations, and, with the exception of some inconsiderable shares in two canals, one of them near his country residence, and the other locally connected with his interests in another point of view, he had never been in any way engaged in these companies. If the hon. member alluded to the company formed to promote the growth of silk in Ireland, he would explain, in a few words, all the connexion he had had with it. When the parties who had projected that company came to the Board of Trade, he had specifically stated to them, that though he thought it a desirable experiment, and wished it to have a fair trial, and though, under other circumstances, he might have felt disposed to take an interest in it, yet, considering the situation he held, as President of the Board of Trade, he could not expose himself to the misapprehension that would be likely to arise from his so doing. When the parties applied to him, as President of the Board of Trade, to know what number of shares would be taken, he informed them that there must have been some miscon- 276 ception as to the intentions of the government, which was desirous only of giving that degree of countenance to the experiment, which might facilitate the object of giving employment to a large portion of the population of Ireland. Such was the nature of this application, and such the answer which had been given on the part of the government; and he defied the hon. member to point out a single speculation of any description with which he had had the slightest connexion, either directly or indirectly. He had heard with great satisfaction, the very able vindication which the hon. member opposite (Mr. Attwood) had been enabled, from his personal knowledge and individual information, to give of the benefit and utility of Joint-stock companies. It was extremely desirable that some explanation should go forth to the public, which might counteract the unmeasured condemnation which the hon. alderman had thought proper to pronounce upon those companies. If there was any one circumstance, to which, more than another, this country owed its wealth and its commercial advantages, it was the existence of Joint-stock companies. Its canals, its bridges, all its great works, had been carried on by Joint-stock companies; and it was an advantage peculiar to this country, that such important undertakings were conducted by individuals interested in their success; whereas, in other countries, where they were left to the care of the government, they were often neglected and left unfinished. Many of these works had been extremely disadvantageous to the persons who had originally embarked in them. This had been the case with respect to the New River Company. It must be admitted, that there could not be a greater benefit to a populous city than an abundant supply of pure and wholesome water. The individuals, however, by whom this project was originally undertaken, were involved in great loss: ultimately, the public had derived the greatest benefit from it, and the successors of the first projectors had been amply remunerated. The same thing had happened with respect to many of our bridges and harbours; and, in general, it might be observed, that it was one of the circumstances which distinguished this country above all others, that great and important works were conducted by Joint-stock companies, not always to the in- 277 terest of the parties who embarked in such speculations, but uniformly to the interest and advantage of the public. There could not, therefore, be a greater error or a greater delusion, than that under which it had been attempted to cry down Joint-stock companies as public evils. It was only in the last session, that efforts had been made to prevail on the Bank of England so far to relax its charter, as to admit of the formation of Joint-stock companies, with a view of rendering the business of banking less hazardous, and the example of Scotland was cited, where there was no impediment to the formation of such companies. The worthy alderman had talked as if the formation of Joint-stock companies for the purpose of carrying on the business of mining, was a new discovery. He, however, could tell the worthy alderman, that all the great mining works in this country had been carried on, time out of mind, by Joint-stock companies. The mines in Cornwall and in Wales had been conducted by such companies. It was a most mischievous policy to attempt to discourage persons from embarking in such speculations, which were, in a great majority of cases, calculated to advance the public interest, or to take away the character of a man for having so done. He would not dispute that there had been many bubbles, as they were called, which reflected disgrace upon those who had concocted them; but he must repeat, that many of the projects which had been formed were likely to conduce, in a large degree, to the public interest. That the late bubbles, as they had been termed, were disgraceful to those who were connected with them, and who knew them to be bubbles, no man could deny; and whenever they should be brought under the consideration of the House, he would raise, as he always had raised, his voice against them, as schemes fraught with fraud in some instances, and with hazard and obvious folly in many others. The worthy alderman had particularly mentioned the Brick company, the Milk company, and some others of a similar description. Of these and other wild schemes, he had already expressed his opinion in that House; and he had warned the public against connecting themselves with schemes which had evidently no other foundation than the folly or avarice of the projectors. He wished that the law could 278 prevent parties from engaging in such delusions, and he was quite ready to agree with the worthy alderman, that where fraud could be proved, it ought to be punished; but while he so far concurred with the worthy alderman, he could not join in the clamour against a principle, which was one of the great foundations of our commercial prosperity, and which he considered essential to the best interests of the country.
Colonel Daviessaid, that having been connected with one of those companies whose origin and conduct were now the subject of debate, he meant the Equitable-loan company, of which he had been a director, he hoped he might be allowed to offer a few observations, with reference to what had fallen from the hon. alderman regarding that company, and those with whom he had the honour to act. The hon. alderman had said, that every individual connected with the Equitable-loan company had carried on a base traffic in the shares. If this accusation were meant to apply to him, he must take leave to tell the hon. alderman, that it was false. The hon. alderman had added, that the company had been got up for fraudulent objects, and that all those connected with it must have known, and did know, that such was its character. If this imputation were levelled at him, he must assert that it was, in like manner, false and unfounded. He had become connected with the company, because he considered it of a beneficial character; but he had never trafficked in shares; and every engagement that he had entered into, in reference to it, he had fulfilled.
§ Mr. Hudson Gurneysaid, he did not rise to oppose the right hon. gentleman's amendment, as he must imagine he had well weighed its bearings and its consequences, and adopted the course he had token as least objectionable in a choice of difficulties; still he could not but think it of most questionable precedent. The Arigna company was a very limited and strictly private association. The only parliamentary inquiries into transactions, supposed to be fraudulent, of which he was aware, were in the cases of the Charitable Corporation, and the South Sea. Both of these were public bodies. The South Sea founded on an arrangement of the Public Debt. The ministers of the Crown were parties supposed to be implicated; though the Directors were 279 those sacrificed to appease the public discontent. There was then no parliamentary inquiry into the private bubbles, gross as they were.
The only object the right hon. gentleman's amendment seemed to compass, would be the giving the hon. gentleman opposite the opportunity which he demanded of vindicating his own conduct, and repelling what appeared to him, as singling that hon. gentleman out—who was very slightly concerned in a general infatuation—as a most unfair and invidious attack. Now, as to the jurisdiction of the House of Commons in this case, it was undeniable, that the names of members of parliament had been put forward in these schemes in a most disgraceful manner. But all that the House could do, was to send a member back to his constituents. There had been a dissolution of parliament since these transactions, and without the record of a verdict of a court of justice—obtained since such members re-election—he did not see how the House could deal with a member of the last parliament, as to any matter which had occurred previously to his return to the present one.
But the real evil was the state of the law relating to partnerships; and he did hope the government would seriously turn their attention to its emendation, so as to ensure some degree of safety to those who might be willing to adventure bonâ fide capital in such useful undertakings as were of a nature which individual means could not compass; and at the same time, to protect the public against the recurrence of such fraudulent associations as had lately prevailed— set on foot on a nominal capital— for the sole purpose of jobbing in shares.
§ Mr. G. Robinsonsaid, he thought the worthy alderman who had brought forward the present motion must now see that the great extent of it would defeat the object which he had in view. He could not think that the worthy alderman, living as he had lived in this great city, and taking an active part in its affairs, could mean to include under one sentence of reprobation, all the Joint-stock companies which had been formed in this country. He had reprobated, and in his opinion justly reprobated, those ephemeral bubble companies, which differed as much from the companies which the right hon. President of the Board of Trade had eulogized, as light from darkness. He 280 did not think that the eulogium which had been passed on Joint-stock companies generally was any answer to the motion, or the speech, of the worthy alderman. He had had an opportunity of witnessing the mischievous consequences of some of the late Joint-stock companies, and he believed that a grosser system of fraud and deception had never been practised in any country. The House was bound, if it had any regard for its own character— for the character of parliament was involved in that of the individual members who had been accused of a participation in these transactions— to carry its investigations beyond the scope proposed by the right hon. Secretary for Foreign Affairs. An hon. member had stated, that he had attended only one meeting as a director of one of these Joint-stock companies, on which occasion he had given them most conscientious advice, and that he had never acted as a director in any other way; but this was one of the very things of which the public had a right to complain; namely, that men of high character had suffered their names to be mixed up with these schemes, and had afterwards neglected to pay that attention to their duties, which would have operated as a check on the conduct of others. In this way many honourable men had, however innocently, rendered themselves parties to these fraudulent schemes.
§ Sir C. Forbessaid, he thought the worthy alderman entitled to approbation, for having had the spirit and the fortitude to say in that House what was universally said out of the House. At the same time, he could not but express his warmest admiration of the manner in which the right hon. Secretary for Foreign Affairs had received the motion. He rose principally for the purpose of making an observation upon one of those Joint-stock companies which had been eulogized by the hon. member for Midhurst, in terms which certainly did not meet with his concurrence. It might be supposed, from the manner in which the hon. member had spoken of the Australian company, that it had been founded upon principles more liberal than those of any other company. Now, he begged leave to ask, whether this company was not founded upon a monopoly? He had received information on this subject, from undeniable authority, and he was enabled to state, that a monopoly had been granted to the 281 Australian company by the government, for a period of twenty years. One million acres of land, in the most fertile part of the colony, had been granted to the company, half of which they were to have the power of disposing of, On condition of expending 100,000l. upon it. The land was worth 5s. an acre, so that here was a bonus of about 250,000l. to the company. The committee of management in New South Wales was composed almost exclusively of members of one family, and the whole concern was, in fact, a job. With regard to the subject more immediately before the House, no man could be more anxious than he was, that the hon. member, who was most interested in the present discussion, should be able to acquit himself with honour and credit. But he felt, at the same time, that every conscientious member of that House was bound to call for the explanation which was necessary to clear up the mystery in which the transactions alluded to were involved: and he could not help recollecting, that the hon. member had not yet made any advances towards refunding the money, on his reception of which the demand for investigation was founded.
§ Mr. John Smithregretted that he was obliged to trouble the House with a few observations in consequence of what had fallen from the hon. baronet. The hon. baronet had certainly adopted a singular mode of making an attack against the Australian company. His information, he said, was confidential, and yet he had scrupled not to bring it forward, attacking all those who had had any concern with that company. He said that the whole thing was a job; but, in talking of the allotment of acres and other things, he did not appear to understand, that one of the principal objects of the Australian company was to raise a species of fine wool, which could not be procured elsewhere. With respect to the observation, that the affairs of the company had been placed in the hands of a particular family, he could only say that the hon. baronet was quite mistaken. The commissioners abroad had little or no power; for the fact was, that the whole business of the company was managed at home, and there was no part of its concerns that did not. reflect the highest credit on the king's government. A most humane and successful endeavour had been made by the agent of the Australian company, to conciliate the original 282 natives of that part of New South Wales, who had been described by travellers to have been the most savage race on the face of the earth. Through kindness and good treatment, however, many of these savages had become partially enlightened, and a considerable alteration for the better had taken place in their manners and behaviour—a fact that conveyed in a forcible manner this cheering truth, that kindness, and kindness alone, would do much good.
Mr. Wilmot Hortonsaid, that as the hon. baronet had affirmed, that he spoke from undeniable authority when he stated, that the Australian company had originated in sonic sinister consideration, on the strength of which it was patronised by the government, he felt it necessary to rise in his place to inform the hon. baronet that he was misled, and that, whatever might be the source of his information, he would do well to distrust it in future. The company had been sanctioned on mature consideration, and the conviction that nothing could be more beneficial to the interests of the population of New South Wales. The hon. baronet had talked of a monopoly. But how could it be called a monopoly to grant one million of acres to a company, where twenty more millions of acres lay? It was proper to observe, in reference to the observations of the hon. baronet, that although this company, as well as the Canadian, and the Van Die-men's Land company, was formed under the auspices of the colonial department, yet not a single share in any of these companies was possessed by any individual connected with that department.
§ Mr. Hart Davissaid, that if there was any association or company in this country, that promised greater advantages to the colony, and to the mother country, than another, that company was the Australian. It was formed upon public principles, and acted upon public principles. The directors, who were only twenty-four in number, held more than half the shares. He, as a director, had never sold a share, although they bore a high premium; and he believed he might say the same of the other directors.
Mr. Tayloralso defended the Australian company, and said, he was convinced the hon. baronet, must have been deceived by his informant.
Mr. Alderman Waithmanobserved, that it was not his intention, after the kindness with which the House had fa- 283 voured him before, to trouble them with any thing in the shape of a reply; but he could not abandon his motion without stating why he had no objection to the amendment. He had at first submitted that motion to the consideration of the right hon. gentleman opposite, and ascertained that he was not hostile to its object; but he had avoided any confinement of the inquiry, such as that effected by the amendment, because he wished to shun the appearance of attacking any particular individual. Agreeing, as he did, however, with respect to the propriety of the amendment, and observing that all parties in the House seemed to be of the same opinion, whatever might be the tenor of their observations in other respects, he would not have thought it necessary to trouble them with any further remarks, had not some gentleman, in the course of the debate, seemed to labour under an impression of his being disposed to condemn Joint-stock companies generally, and not those particular speculations to which he had taken the liberty of directing their attention. He had not, certainly, contemplated the necessity of guarding himself against such an inference, nor did he think it likely that any man could have supposed him guilty of such a want of discretion, as to attack, or call for condemnation on, those who had embarked their property in speculations, where the basis of the enterprise was well understood, and its objects clearly and precisely defined, he never intended to cast any imputation on such companies; and he begged to say, once for all, that he agreed, to the fullest extent, in every thing which had fallen from the right hon. President of the Board of Trade, upon the subject of those institutions which were fostered and promoted through the means of Joint-stock associations. He fully appreciated the advantage which the country, as well as individuals, had derived from the application of capital in that form; and he repeated, that his observations had reference only to those speculations which had no definite object; which were bottomed in fraud, and were solely intended to delude the ignorant, the credulous, or the unwary. With respect to the observations of the hon. member for Midhurst, upon the Equitable-loan company, he begged to premise, that all the documents upon which he had grounded his statement had been produced to the House of 284 Lords. Another hon. member (Mr. Attwood), whose opinions and observations upon the subject of Joint-stock companies deserved particular attention, not only from his general knowledge, but from his experience upon such matters, which was certainly greater than that, of any man in that House—as great, perhaps, as that of any man in the country—that hon. member had asserted, that the company to which he alluded was no delusion. He had been accused of being too vague and general in his charges; but instead of vague and sweeping observations, he had confined himself to facts; one was, that the company gave out that the directors held three hundred shares a-piece, which they altered, without any public notice, to twenty shares. He would ask the hon. gentleman as an auditor of this company, with forty-five directors, seven of whom were members of parliament, whether they did not libel an individual who opposed the company; whether the money for the insertion of that libel in a public journal was not paid for by a check subscribed by three of the directors; and whether that check was not paid by the house of the hon. member who was auditor of the company? He would here take occasion to mention, that it was the object of those opposed to the bill to prove that it never could be a public benefit. The great argument for the bill, in the original preamble was, that it would prove so; but let the House mark the hypocrisy with which the company conducted their operations. When it was found that the point was to be opposed, it was struck out of the bill. If that bill had received the sanction of parliament, no tradesman could have carried on his business with security.
The question as amended; namely, "That a select committee be appointed to inquire into the origin, management, and present state of the Arigna Iron and Coal Mining Company," was then put and agreed to; and a committee was accordingly appointed.