§ Sir G. Clerk, in bringing forward the Navy Estimates, observed, that, on the extraordinaries of the navy, there was an increase in the present year, as compared with the last, of 120,000l. This arose from the enhanced price of materials, and from the additional expense of wear and tear. On the ordinary estimate, there was an increase of 80,000l., in consequence of a very considerable addition having been made in the wages of the artificers employed in the dockyards. For the last four years they had been restricted to five days in the week instead of working during the entire six. They were now, however, employed throughout the six days, which sufficiently accounted for the increased expense. The sum voted last year was about 480,000l. This year about 560,000l. would be necessary. On the half-pay, pensions, and superannuations, there was a reduction. It would have been greater; but some of the items, which were formerly placed to another account, were now, under the act of last session, charged on the estimate. A considerable sum was charged for carrying on several of the new works on the coast. Among these, one of the most prominent was the docks at Sheerness. For the first time they, were called on to provide for the building of store-houses and officers' houses in the new yard. Formerly, the charge was 593 made for carrying on works, which were nearly finished, and it was not intended by the Admiralty to have gone on any further; but an offer was made to them by the architect, that if he were permitted to proceed more rapidly, and to use the materials and machinery he had on the spot, he should be enabled to finish the new works in a short period, and at a reduced price. It was estimated, that 50,000l. would complete the undertaking. The architect was to receive 400l. a-year and to be allowed 3½ per cent, on any money he might advance, should it be found necessary, beyond the 50,000l. The sum of 795,000l., might be considered sufficient for all the works. There was an increase on the estimate for the works in progress at Plymouth Sound. Independent of the ordinary works, they were building a light-house there; and it was necessary that that part of the break-water which adjoined the light-house should be built more substantially than the other portions of it. It should also be observed, that the break-water had received some damage from the hurricane of the 23rd of November last. But it was satisfactory to state, that the mischief was not of considerable extent. That great national work proved, upon that occasion, that it was perfectly suited to effect the object for which it was erected. To prevent the possibility of its sustaining any injury in future, it would be finished in the most substantial manner. It was now nearly completed, and, when finished, even with this additional charge, would come within the amount of the estimate laid before the House in 1812. Some alteration would be made in the buildings connected with the victualling department, &c, at Plymouth. At present, those establishments stood at opposite sides of the harbour. The establishment at South Down, where the brewery stood, was far removed from the ships, and only accessible at particular times. This was an inconvenience which the Admiralty meant to remove. The establishment was not built on ground the property of the Crown, but was held by lease, which lease was now nearly expired. It was intended to purchase it, and to rebuild the houses; as had been recommended by earl St. Vincent when he was at the head of the Admiralty. It was also in contemplation to build a sea-wall, for the greater security and convenience of shipping. He concluded by moving, "That 54,886l. 5s. 1d. be granted to de- 594 fray the Salaries of the Officers, and the Contingent Expenses of the Admiralty-office, for the year 1825."
§ Mr. Humecould not understand why so large an expense was incurred on account of the navy. If the promises held out by those who were at the head of the government, in former years, were worthy of the smallest attention, that expense ought now to be very sensibly diminished. In 1816, a committee was appointed to examine into the probable expense of the navy for that and subsequent years, and they made their report to the House accordingly. And now, in the year 1825, instead of the aggregate amount of the expense being reduced, it was actually greater than it was in 1817. So that, though a reduction was made in one or two years, they were now increasing the charge very considerably. In 1817, the estimate was 5,242,000l., this year it was 5,980,000l. Unless the world at large were at war with this country, there could be no necessity for such an enormous expense. They had been told that a very great decrease would be effected in the half-pay and allowances. But, so far from that expense being lowered to the extent of which hopes had been held out, it was nearly as great as when the proposed reduction was intimated. He thought there was something very extraordinary in the system of keeping up half-pay and allowances on so extensive a scale. Why did not ministers bring back to the service persons who were on half-pay whenever vacancies occurred? Promotions were now as frequent as ever. The secretary of the Admiralty had declared, on a former occasion, that whenever a vacancy occurred, it should be filled up by individuals on half-pay. He hoped he would lay on the table a list of the vacancies which had occurred during the last few years, and show how many of those who were on half-pay, had been brought back to full pay. He feared the number would prove very small indeed. In 1817, the half-pay list amounted to 1,146,600l. it had gone on increasing, and was, in the present year, 1,387,692l. The reduction, as compared with the preceding year, was only 38,000l. Two years ago, the reductions effected by ministers seemed to be dictated by a desire to give relief to the country at large; but they appeared to have lost sight of that object, and no reduction had latterly taken place. He 595 thought, it was better for the House to look at the aggregate amount of the estimates, than to consider the details. They ought to say, distinctly, "so much is sufficient for the service of the country; the remainder must be reduced." He considered the naval force at present entirely too large. Here was art estimate of 5,983.000l. for the navy. Was it possible, that in time of peace a sum so enormous could be wanted? The South American states were so firmly established that they had been deemed fit objects for commercial treaties. In that quarter, then, no fleet was necessary; and he should be glad to know where any extensive naval force was required. The salaries now paid in many of the public offices were quintuple those which had been paid in any former peace; and unquestionably there was no necessity for such an increase of emolument. The amount of money expended at this moment for building ships was enormous. They were throwing away a million annually on the building of ships, which were rapidly falling into decay. We had already no less than 500 ships of war, a greater naval force than all the states of the world could command. Why, therefore, should they go on building? They ought to cease from building new ships, and apply themselves to keeping in perfect repair the old ones. The newly-built vessels were destroyed by the dry-rot. The hon. comptroller of the navy (sir B. Martin) smiled at the idea of the dry-rot. It was the fact, nevertheless, that it was doing a great deal of mischief. The hon. comptroller, and others on the opposite side of the House, had stated that this evil did not exist to any great extent. But their statements were by no means borne out. He would not say that half the navy was useless; but he believed that more damage had been done to our ships since the use of unseasoned timber came into fashion, than was ever before known. Those who had the management of the naval department tried all manner of experiments to check the evil. They changed their course of proceeding every four or five years; and he submitted to the House, that the expenditure of upwards of a million a-year for the building of ships deserved more consideration than had been given to the subject. The discovery of steam navigation had altered the nature of maritime warfare altogether. Come war when it might, the mode of 596 warfare in the narrow seas would be very different from what it was at present. It would be much better to cease from building ships for the next five years, and to keep up in good repair the 500 we already possessed. The whole of Europe had not that number of ships. Why not let the timber remain in the forests until imperious necessity called for it to be felled. He saw a considerable sum charged for the improvements in dock-yards and wharfs: 795,000l. was to be voted for works now in progress at Sheerness. When they had such a dock-yard as that of Chatham, and when ships might be carried up and down without delay, by means of steam-boats, he could not but view this establishment at Sheerness as useless. There was also a charge of 300,000l. for works at Plymouth. When sums of this magnitude were called for, parliament ought to have more detailed information than could be contained in a speech delivered at the table, He also observed a charge for the dock-yard establishment at Halifax. Why could not Halifax defray its own expenses? He wished to see the navy, which was, and deserved to be, the favourite service of the country, kept in the most efficient state; but he could not suffer a useless expenditure which would go on increasing if it were not checked, to pass unnoticed.
Mr. Robertsonsaid, that when their commerce was increasing in every quarter of the globe, it was proper that a very large naval force should be kept up, for the purpose of protecting it. He contended, that they ought not to cease from building ships, since they were necessary to the welfare and security of the country. The hon. member had, in his opinion, recommended the most mischievous policy that could possibly be devised. Formerly, our commerce was confined to Europe, the Mediterranean, and the West-Indies; but there was not a country on the face of the earth where our ships were not at anchor. If a new rupture occurred, was it not necessary that a great naval force should be ready to protect them? He trusted that ministers would not shrink from their duty, but would extend the navy as much as possible.
§ Mr. Humesaid, he was as anxious as any man to have the navy in such a state that it might cope with the world; but the mischievous policy of which he complained was, the system of building ships merely to rot.
597 The resolution was agreed to. On a resolution, "That 157,176l. 3s. 5d. be granted to defray the salaries of the Officers, and the Contingent expenses of His Majesty's Yards at home, for the year 1825,"
§ Sir E. Knatchbullcomplained, that many shipwrights and other artificers had been discharged from the dock-yard at Chatham, while none were removed from Portsmouth or Plymouth. The consequence was, that as the men could procure no employment, many of them, with their families, were thrown on the parish.
§ Sir G. Clerksaid, that at the end of the war, it was found that there was not sufficient work for all the men employed in the several dock-yards. To avoid the necessity of discharging them, it was offered to continue them at such work as there might be for them to do, but at a lower rate of wages. The men received this as a boon, and gladly continued in the dock-yards upon the terms offered them. In the course of last winter and autumn, they expressed some dissatisfaction at the amount of their wages, and were told they were at liberty to seek employment wherever they could obtain better pay. Some of them did so, and the reason why this happened to have taken I place in Kent, more than in Plymouth and other places, was, because, on the men at Plymouth being told that they were kept in employment at the reduced wages only to keep them from distress, they said they were content and continued their places, As to the families of the shipwrights discharged from the dockyards in Kent having become chargeable to the parish, that was their own fault. There was plenty of work for them to do in the: private docks, but they had entered into a combination, and placed themselves under the direction of a committee, who fixed certain prices, which the masters would not give.
§ Mr. Huskissonsaid, he had reason to know, that there was at this time a great demand for workmen in the private yards, and that all the men who had left the public docks would have found employment there, but for the mischievous spirit of combination which influenced them. Since the repeal of the combination laws, the workmen in this and other trades had committed such excesses as, if they were continued, would compel the House to resort again to the former laws, the repeal of which he feared had prejudiced some 598 very valuable interests, and been injurious to the workmen themselves. Many persons were now ready to give the workmen employment, and the statements of those persons placed the conduct of the workmen in such a light as made him feel more indignation than he thought proper to express. If they had in any instances become burthensome to the parishes, it must have been through their own misconduct.
§ Mr. Humewas so far from blaming the government for the course which they had adopted towards the shipwrights, that he thought it extremely humane to keep them at low wages, until the arrival of the merchant trade should have furnished them with full employment. That time had now arrived. He was sorry to add, that the conduct of the workmen, in all parts of the country since the repeal of the combination laws, which he had laboured so much to procure, had been highly blameable. They had attempted to impose upon their masters—regulations, far more arbitrary and degrading than those which they had themselves so much complained of. He hoped the recent successes of the masters who had withstood these attempts, would teach the workmen, that this ungracious and impolitic conduct of theirs would drive their best friends to wish for the re-enactment of the old laws.
§ The resolution was agreed to.