HC Deb 15 March 1824 vol 10 cc1013-30
Mr. Maberly

rose, pursuant to the notice he had given, to submit his motion on the subject of the inequality of the duties paid by different classes of the public on Beer and Malt. He began by observing, that when the subject was before the House on a former occasion, but little had been said upon it, and he believed it was one which was not well understood. It was, however, as he viewed it, very simple, and rested upon the principles, whether one class of his majesty's subjects should be taxed higher than the others, and whether the persons taxing should reap all the benefit of this inequality. As there were various acts of parliament connected with the subject of the beer and malt duties, he did not think it expedient to enter into the question in all its ramifications. He would, therefore, confine himself solely to one branch of it; namely, the interests of the parties taxed, and the inequality of the mode of taxation. In order that he might not be misunderstood, he would now state the nature of the motion with which he should conclude. He would move "That a Select Committee be appointed, to inquire into the present mode of taxing malt and beer separately; and whether it would not be expedient to collect the same amount of duties on malt alone, thereby taxing all consumers equally, instead of, as at present, taxing one class of malt consumers at 2s. 6d. per bushel, and another at 6s. l0½d. per bushel; and one class of beer consumers at 5s. 8½d. per barrel, and another at 15s. 8½d. per barrel, for the same qualities of malt and beer." He would now proceed to prove what he had advanced in this motion, reminding the House, in the first place, that the present duty on malt was 2s. 6d per bushel, or 1l. per quarter, of eight bushels; and that this duty was paid only by private brewers, who contributed nothing to the duty on beer. The public brewer, however, paid a very different sum; he brewed three barrels and a half of strong beer out of every quarter of malt, and the duty he paid was at the rate of 10s. per barrel, or 1l. 15s. upon the three and a half barrels, which, together with the malt duty of 1l., made 2l. 15s. This sum divided by eight, the number of bushels of malt in a quarter, gave 6s. 10½d., one of the sums stated in his motion. Thus, the greatest injustice was done, the private brewer paying only 2s. 6d. per bushel on malt, and the public brewer 6s. 10½d. With regard to the duty on beer, the case would stand thus: the private brewer paid 1l. duty on his quarter of malt, out of which he made three barrels and a half of beer; and dividing 1l. by 3½, the result was a duty of 5s. 8½d. per barrel. Upon the calculation, that the public brewer extracted as much from a quarter of malt, his situation was this—he paid 1l. upon the malt, and an additional duty of 1l. 15s.; as before stated, which two sums divided by 3½, made his duty amount to 15s. 8½d. per barrel, the last sum mentioned in the motion he had read. Now, this was the difference which he wished to abolish. He could not see upon what principle of justice the poor man, who was generally the consumer of the beer made by the public brewer, should be obliged to pay 10s. per barrel more for his beer than the private brewer, who could always better afford it. He would now proceed to show the great difference in the sums thus paid in duty by the poorer classes and the rich. From returns not yet printed of the quantity of malt which had paid duty in England and Scotland in the year 1823, it appeared that the number of bushels was 27,288,380. The quantity consumed by public brewers, distillers, and vinegar manufacturers, he took to be 16,755,757 bushels, leaving, as the quantity consumed by the private brewers, 10,532,623 bushels. The way in which he arrived at these results was this—he found by the returns, that there were brewed in England and Scotland in the course of last year 6,212,744 barrels of strong beer, which, at the average of eight bushels of malt to every 3½ barrels of beer, would make a consumption of 14,200,557 bushels. The quantity of table beer brewed by the public brewers was 1,621,623 barrels, making a consumption of 1,995,200 bushels; to these, adding the quantity consumed by vinegar manufacturers and others, which he took at 560,000, the whole would amount to the number of 16,755,757, leaving the difference, 10,532,623, as the quantity consumed by private brewers.—The hon. member then proceeded to show that taking the same proportion of strong-beer and table-beer among the private brewers as among the public brewers, it would appear, that there were 3,949,733 barrels of strong beer brewed in the year. These, if subjected to the same duty as the beer brewed by the public brewers, would produce a sum of 1,974,866l. 10s. The quantity of small beer brewed, amounted to 1,621,103 barrels, which at 2s. per barrel, would make 122,530l., making in the whole the sum of 2,097,397l., which the poor classes were almost exclusively called upon to pay, and from which the rich were exempt. He was in possession of an account of the number of barrels of beer brewed last year, which was as follows:—of strong beer, 6,212,744; of table beer 1,621,103; of intermediate beer only 1,892 were brewed, and by 55 individuals. The duty paid upon that quantity of beer, was 3,270,205l. Deducting the expense of collection, the amount of duty paid into the Treasury would be about 2,800,000l. These facts alone showed that inquiry was necessary. If any class deserved peculiar favour, it was not the rich, who could so well afford to pay, but the poor, who earned every farthing they spent by the sweat of their brows. To the working part of the community, porter had become a necessary of life, and upon this chiefly the duty was laid. Another objection to the present system was, the increased expense in the collection of the duty. If the whole duty were laid on malt, the revenue might be collected without a shilling of additional charge; for whether that duty were 2s. 6d. per bushel, or 4s. 6d. per bushel, could make no difference. The present expense of collecting the malt duty was 165,462l., while the expense of collecting the Beer duty was 295,927l., the whole of which might be saved to the country, and further taxes reduced to that amount. He was aware, that he should be told, that the accounts of the expenses of collection were not accurate; but if so, this formed another ground for inquiring into the subject, for they ought to be correct. The hon. member for Aberdeen had, however, last year, satisfactorily answered this remark, when he had said, on the authority of the commissioners, that the charge was as fairly as possible apportioned. A note had, nevertheless, been appended to the returns, in order to inform the House, that the same officers were employed in the collection of various taxes, and that there was no tax on beer in Ireland. In fact, it had been found very expedient to remove the beer tax in Ireland, and to place the whole duty on malt; for it was now satisfactorily paid, and the trade had been freed from monstrous restrictions. These restrictions 4iad been imposed very recently by 1 and 2 Geo. 4th, c. 22, "to prevent frauds, and the better to secure the payment of the duties on beer." Perhaps, a harsher law had never been passed. The Scotch brewers, unable to carry on their trade under it, had appealed against it; as they had not even heard of the law, until it was to be carried into execution. The reply of the commissioners to the suggestion that the whole duty should be laid upon the malt was, that it would lead to the deterioration of the beer, and that his majesty's ministers were bound to regard the health of his majesty's subjects. Now, he advised the king's ministers not to intermeddle with this matter—to let the king's subjects take care of their own health—and to allow them to buy their beer of whatever brewer sold it best and cheapest. Mr. Lushington had made a somewhat similar reply to the Scotch brewers. By the course the Lords of the Treasury had pursued, they had taken upon themselves to fix the price of two qualities of beer, as well as to guard the health of the consumers; namely, table beer, and intermediate beer. Why did they not follow the same plan with spirits, wine, coffee, sugar, or even with cotton and woollen goods? They might have done so with equal justice and fitness. If additional securities were necessary to guard the public, or to prevent fraud, he had no objection even to double penalties, if they would be effectual. But, what had been the consequence of thus fixing the price of table beer and intermediate beer? The brewers, unable to obtain an advance of price, in self-defence, as malt and hops rose, had been obliged to give the public absolute trash, instead of a wholesome beverage. From a document in his hand, it appeared, that what the brewers were compelled to sell at 6l. 18s. if made of malt and hops at the present price, would cost them 7l. 10s. 6d. Who in truth sustained the loss? the public—that public, for the health of which ministers were so extremely anxious!—The argument of last year had been, that to comply with the present motion would be to impose too large a duty on one article; but, during the war, this objection had never been started, when the impost upon malt was 4s. 4—d. per bushel, and he (Mr. M.) only proposed to raise it to 4s. 6d. He was besides informed by persons well acquainted with the subject, that, by the simplest laws, it would be easy to prevent the possibility of fraud, if the whole duty were laid upon the malt. It had been also urged, that farmers gave beer on which they paid no duty in lieu of wages. If so, he was prepared to contend, that farmers had no right to this special privilege of buying an article free of duty, which others were compelled to pay, and giving it to their men instead of money. They had no more claim to do so than the cotton or linen manufacturers; and it would not have been tolerated, but for the extreme forbearance of ministers towards the landed interest, to whom the country was indebted for this species of legislation: the principle was most unjust, and, though it had long, prevailed, it ought immediately to be put an end to. The chancellor of the Exchequer had also said last year, that he did not like to make any changes in the collection of the duties while so great an alteration was in contemplation in the collection of the duties on spirits in Scotland and Ireland. At present, however, the right hon. gentleman need be under no apprehension on that score. He (Mr. M.) was convinced, that the effect or the amendment he proposed in the system, would be to increase the consumption, augment the revenue, and satisfy the people by equal and just taxation.—He had heard rumours abroad, that a measure was about to be brought forward to equalize the duties on beer; but the House would perceive that such a bill would not relieve the people. Supposing the whole duty upon beer were fixed at 5s. per barrel, still stronger laws would be required for the collection of the duty, and for the prevention of fraud. Where would be the benefit to the lower orders? Persons who bought strong beer, might be relieved; but that large class of the community which consumed table beer, would suffer proportionably. He hoped, therefore, that the House would not lend itself to any such unequal project. The chancellor of the Exchequer was a man of too liberal and of too enlightened a mind not to see most clearly the advantage of what he (Mr. M.) now recommended; but he did not dare to act up to his own convictions; he knew that he should be opposed by the landed interest—that the country gentlemen would immediately declare (as one of them had done not long since, when agricultural distress caused a temporary aberration) that it was time to look about them—that the best interest of the land were at stake, and that a stand must be made before all was lost. The right hon. gentleman was aware that he should be assailed on all sides if he consented, and that he should not be allowed to quit the lobby without retracting his approbation [hear, hear!]. He asked him, nevertheless, why he sat there as the minister for the whole state, and bound to protect the interests of all classes alike, and yet consented to this unequal duty, which pressed so heavily upon the poor, for the exclusive benefit of the rich? He knew that no satisfactory reply could be given, but there was every probability that something would be attempted. The right hon. gentleman and the colleague at his side (Mr. Huskisson) had recently supported great improvements in external and internal legislation, and they were entitled to much praise for their exertions, they had so far adopted the principle for which he (Mr. M.) was contending; but, inasmuch as he applauded them for adopting it, he blamed them for not going further; and he called upon them to state on what ground they thought proper to stop short, when so reasonable a proposition as the present was made? They were ready to legislate liberally, and in an enlightened spirit, on silk, linen, and wool; but when it was suggested that they should extend the system to beer, on which there existed such inequality and injustice, they declared that they were not prepared to take such a step. Why were they not prepared? The reason was plain, though not avowed—the landed interest would not allow them [hear!]. The poorer classes those who most needed them, had no such powerful advocates.—The right hon. gentleman had recently acknowledged the very principle for which he (Mr. M.) was contending. After the late reduction of the duty on windows and houses, the commissioners of taxes sent circulars to all their surveyors, requiring them to re-survey the houses in their several districts. The greatest ferment and anxiety were created; and, in consequence, orders were sent down to stop such an obnoxious proceeding. In what way had the right hon. gentleman explained this course? Why, almost in the very terms which he (Mr. M.) had employed on the subject of beer. The right hon. gentleman had said, that he thought it expedient that whatever duties remained should be borne equally by all parties. He had acknowledged that such were the principles of sound legislation; and how could he now turn round in the face of his own acknowledgment, and disown the application of the same principles here? How could the right hon. gentleman contend that what was good with respect to windows and houses was bad with respect to beer and malt? Where was the distinction? There was none in fact: and he defied the right hon. gentleman and all his friends, to point it out. The distinction lay in the consequences, for, in the one case, the chancellor of the Exchequer could pursue an equitable system, without danger; and in the other, he dared not be just, because he stood in dread of those who were more powerful than himself, the country gentlemen [hear, hear!]. Such was the effect of ministers making themselves dependent upon those of whom they ought to be independent, instead of looking to the people, grateful for just and equal taxation, for support and approbation. If the committee were granted, he would suggest, that an additional duty of 2s. per bushel should be placed upon malt, making the whole duty 4s. 6d. per bushel. Malt had borne during the war a duty of 4s. 4½d., with all the present beer duty in addition, and all he wished was to raise it three halfpence higher, and to do away with all the existing duty on beer. When once this system was carried into effect, a man might drink his beer exactly of the strength he liked, without being under any obligation to the chancellor of the Exchequer for preserving his health, and might at once consult his palate and his pocket. Another advantage of the change would be, that the brewers would be left open to the exercise of their skill in the chemical process in which they were engaged. Under the prevailing restrictions, skill and experience were of little or no use to them. Hereafter they might be able, by improvements, to draw a greater strength from the same quantity of malt; the price of the article might then be lowered, and the public in all ways signally benefitted. The great advantage, and that which above all others ought to be contemplated was, that all classes of the people would be taxed equally. At present the great mass of the population, and those who were least able to sustain the weight, endured nearly the whole burthen; and if this motion were rejected by those who wished to exonerate their own pockets, who could doubt for a moment that the House needed reform? The first principle of taxation was justice and equality, and if the House refused to carry that principle, as far as possible, into effect, it would afford one of the strongest arguments, to those who maintained that it did not represent the wishes or the interests of the people. Persuaded as he was, that he had made out a very strong case for going into the committee, he could not believe, until the House convinced him of the fact by its vote, that it would not support a proposition, so just and reasonable, and which without at all deciding the question, merely asked for investigation. The hon. member concluded, by submitting the motion which he had read at the opening of his speech.

The Chancellor of the Exchequer

said, he was by no means prepared to admit that this question had been so imperfectly discussed last year. He did not flatter himself, that any thing he had then said was sufficient to persuade hon. gentlemen on the other side of the House; from their Votes at the time it was quite clear that they were not convinced against their will, although several members who disapproved of the motion had stated many unanswerable reasons for not consenting to the proposed committee. He would fairly confess that since the last debate on this question, nothing new had occurred to him, nor had a reconsideration of what had passed induced him to change the view which he had then taken of the subject. He could not therefore pretend that he was furnished either with new light or fresh information, and he much feared that his stock of ingenuity was far too small to furnish new arguments every time the gentlemen opposite chose after defeat to renew their motions. As it was rendered necessary, by the course which had been pursued, he would briefly re-state the grounds on which he had rested his opinion that it was inexpedient to acquiesce in the motion just submitted. The hon. gentleman had recommended his proposition, as being safe and salutary on two accounts principally. First, he had appealed to the anxiety of the House for economy; and, secondly, he had appealed to its love of justice. He had maintained, that by dividing the tax between beer and malt, the nation incurred a greater expense than if it were placed only upon one; and, further, that it was most unfair to relieve the rich at the expense of the poor. These general principles were undoubtedly very good, and in this case they had only the slight defect of wanting application. As to the expense of collection, he could only repeat what he had said last session—that it was a fallacy to assume that the expense of collecting the beer duty was that sum which, according to ancient usage, was assigned in the Excise returns as the charge. Excise officers did not perform one duty only; they collected the imposts, not alone on malt, but on soap, candles, and every thing on which their services might be required. It was quite true, that there had always been charged (perhaps most absurdly) upon the collection of the duties on malt and beer certain other expenses, which had, in fact, nothing to do with them. It was quite obvious, that if the same individuals were employed on different duties on the same day, it was impossible to define exactly how much of the charge ought to be borne by the one or by the other. They could not employ one officer of the revenue in collecting one particular tax without assisting in the collection of the others. He was therefore not disposed to admit, that if the duties on beer were repealed, the whole of the 295,927l. now set down for the expense of the collection of that duty would be saved; for he could not conceive how the hon. gentleman was warranted in not allowing an additional expense for the collection of a double duty on malt, if such a duty were imposed. He could not conceive how the hon. gentleman assumed, that, if they doubled a tax, the temptations to evade which were already so great, no additional trouble and expense would be necessary in insuring its collection. The hon. gentleman, indeed, seemed to think, that the malt tax never was evaded; but this was a supposition unfortunately altogether incorrect. If they doubled the tax, the inducement to fraud would be doubled, and greater vigilance would be required to detect fraud. It was impossible, therefore, to calculate upon the saving of 295,927l. The system of the hon. member was not to cause any loss to the revenue; but his proposed increase of the duty on malt did not seem adequate to secure it against loss. The duty on beer produced about three millions sterling; while, in the last year, the quantity of malt that paid duty was 27 millions of bushels. Two shillings per bushel additional duty would produce, on this quantity, only 2,700,000l. There would therefore remain 300,000l. to be made up. The hon. gentleman might say that he would proportionably increase the duty; but, said again, that, in so doing, he increased the temptations to evade the duty, and, pro tanto, diminished the benefit to those for whose advantage the change was projected. The hon. gentleman said, that the duty was extremely unequal. Now, he could not pretend, abstractedly speaking, to say that it was not unequal, as the malt used in the breweries of the public brewer might be said to pay altogether an amount of duty beyond that paid on the malt used by those who brewed their own beer. But, practically, the effect was not so severe as the hon. gentleman had contended; because, in reality, those who brewed their own beer, and were thus exempted from the beer tax, could not brew their own beer at so economical a rate as it was brewed in the great establishments of the public brewer. Though this was no argument in favour of the inequality of the principle, it was a good one to show that the hon. gentleman had over-rated the degree in which that principle operated in practice. The hon. gentleman assumed, however, that-all persons who brewed their own beer were rich, and that all persons who bought the beer of public brewers were poor. This was a proposition which it was necessary to take with many limitations. In the first place, nearly all the inhabitants, of this metropolis, which always comprised so many opulent persons, and during part of the year a great proportion of the nobility and gentry of the country, drank beer which paid the duty. In all towns a large portion of the inhabitants living in easy circumstances, who certainly could not be classed with the poor, also drank the beer of the public brewers. On the other hand, there were a great number of persons who brewed their own beer who were in poor circumstances. Certainly, in the county with which he was more particularly acquainted, and in Yorkshire, private brewing was common, not only among the very small farmers, but the artisans in villages, and even the manufacturers. To that class it would be a great hardship to impose an additional duty on the malt they used in brewing—a hardship not depending merely on the increased pressure of taxation, but which would have the effect of driving them to the public-house, of introducing a pernicious system and of depriving them of the great comfort, as well as of the advantage to their morals, of consuming their own beer with their families. The hon. gentleman had ridi- culed one defence which had been set up for the beer duty; namely, the plea, that it enabled the Excise officers to detect frauds which might otherwise be practised on consumers, by the use of deleterious drugs in their beer. Certainly, he would not say that the utility of the safeguard thus afforded to consumers was by any means a sufficient reason for imposing a tax, or for continuing that tax if they were able totally to repeal it; but he would say that when the proposition merely was, to shift the taxation from one item to another, it was an objection to the proposition, that an incidental effect of the change was to deprive the consumer of the protection which the supervision of the Excise afforded to him. The hon. gentleman seemed to think, that in all cases the consumers were able to protect themselves against these frauds; but he would learn, that though there had been many frauds detected which had been practised by brewers, before considered very respectable in their line, it was never merely by the nicety of the palate of the consumer that the discovery was made of the fraud so practised upon him, but always either by the evidence of the brewers' servants, or by the increased vigilance of the officers of the revenue. The hon. gentleman had thrown ridicule on the measure introduced last year for extending the sale of beer. Now, for his own part, he had never made much account of that measure. He had not been insensible to the objections which would be urged against that, or against any system of taxation, which threw restraints upon industry. He was not without hopes, however, that he could do away with the inconveniences of the Bill which he had introduced. He stated this rather by the way, than as any answer to the hon. gentleman's motion; because the difference between them was not, whether they ought to reduce or modify the duty on beer, but whether they ought to take it off altogether and throw it upon malt. He did not now pretend to state any thing new. He had only repeated the observations which he had made last year, and which had then not been so unsatisfactory to the House as they obviously had been to the hon. gentleman. In conclusion, he would contend, that however desirable it might be to reduce the duty on beer, it was not by throwing it on malt, that the advantage of such a reduction would be secured, and that there was no informa- tion on the subject which they had need have recourse to a committee to supply, the proper step for the House was, to give a negative to the motion.

Mr. Hume

contended, that the arguments of the hon. mover had recieved no sufficient answer from the chancellor of the Exchequer. As to the assertion that by a transfer of the duty from beer to malt, there would be no economy in the expense of collection, he begged to dissent entirely therefrom. He wished they had before them the chairman, or any other proper officer, of the board of Excise, to put to him this question—"Do you not, in appointing your officers in any part of the country, calculate the number of hours that their occupations will furnish them, so as fully to employ their whole time? "He knew the answer would be in the affirmative; for no part of the public business was so attentively and laboriously performed as that done by the officers of the Excise. If these officers were employed once a day, or every other day, for three or four hours in each brewery, it was obvious, that, when this source of employment was taken away, a much smaller number of officers would be required, and a reduction might take place to a very large extent; though it was difficult to state the precise saving which might be effected. In regard to the chancellor of the Exchequer's answer to the objections drawn from the inequality of the tax, that answer amounted to this—" there is an inequality, but that inequality is not so great as the hon. mover has contended." Now really, in arguing a question of this kind, it mattered not whether one half, or a third, or a quarter of the poor were unequally affected. The question was, whether a tax was unequal or not? and, that it was unequal the right hon. gentleman had admitted. The truth was, that the great body of labouring people in the large towns were those upon whom the beer tax pressed with all its severity. As to the agricultural interest, so far from their being injured by the additional duty on malt, accompanied by a reduction of the tax on beer, the increased consumption of malt which would accompany the measure, and the stimulus that would thus be given to the growth of barley, would more than counterbalance any burthen that might be thrown on them as brewers of their own beer. The chancellor of the Exchequer should recollect how he was cheered when he declared, in reference to the house-tax, that so long as taxes were continued, they should be equally imposed on all classes. But, if this observation applied to the house-tax it applied also to the mall-tax. A tax unequally levied was unjust. It was proper at least to go into a committee, to see whether the tax could not be equalized, or if not equalized, whether it could not be levied in a manner which would interfere less with the freedom of trade. It might be a matter of consideration, when they had heard the evidence in a committee, whether the additional duty on malt should be imposed on those who brewed their own beer; and if it should not be thought fit to tax them, they might perhaps impose, in lieu of the beer tax, an additional tax on the malt used in the brewery of the common brewer. Of such a measure as this, one good effect would be, to free the breweries from the presence of the Excise officers. He understood that this measure had been tried in Ireland, and that the results had been most beneficial. On every point, he thought the chancellor of the Exchequer had failed to shew that the House should shut out information, and he should therefore support the motion of his hon. friend.

Mr. Wodehouse

said, that the motion was, in many respects, so objectionable, that he could not give it his support. Though it could not be denied that the Beer-tax was unequal, yet, when the hon. member contended, that the whole of the beer brewed by public brewers was drunk by the poor, it was the most preposterous proposition ever made by man.

Mr. Maberly

denied that he had used the argument in an unqualified sense.

Mr. Wodehouse

said, that although he might not have used the hon. member's words, yet he thought he had not mis-stated the tenour of his argument, and was positive that the hon. member had insinuated that the chancellor of the Exchequer persevered in his present views, in base compliance with the feelings of the country gentlemen. The hon. gentleman had done the same thing last year, when he promised in magnanimous terms, to hold them up to public notice: he had, he supposed done so by the present motion, and he wished him joy of the result. The hon. member had said, that if the duty were transferred, he was ready to concede any penalties to prevent abuses regarding malt; but, was he not aware of the enormous penalties and restrictions which at present affected that trade? The first payment of the malt duties to government was in the month of October, and that was the time most essential for the small farmer to go and seek a market.

Mr. Maberly

interposed to explain. What he had said respecting penalties was, that he should be ready to affix the severest penalties to the mixing deleterious drugs with beer.

Mr. Wodehouse

said, that the explanation of the hon. gentleman did not affect the argument he was prepared to offer, which was this: If from 20s. a quarter, the malt duties were increased to 40s, a quarter, the payments to be made by the maltsters would be increased, and the effect in depressing the markets would be great in proportion. He hoped the chancellor of the Exchequer would take into consideration the state of the malt duties. In the last session he had not pressed the subject upon the chancellor of the Exchequer, because a great experiment (the medium beer bill) was then making. That experiment had completely failed, and he hoped now the chancellor of the Exchequer would again turn his attention to the subject. The hon. member had gone into many difficult calculations to suit his arguments; but he (Mr. W.) must dissent from some of his estimates. For instance, in a case like this, he could not consent to take one year by itself: it was a fallacious criterion; for in some particular years brewers and maltsters. speculated more largely than they did in others. If he (Mr. W.) were to strike an average, he should rather take the three years before the late war, 1791, 1792, and 1793; and, computing it from them he found, that although the population of the country was at the time only eight millions, there was as great a consumption of malt as during the years 1821, 1822, and 1823, when the population had increased to eleven millions. Although he could not concur in the motion, he was anxious to see the duty on malt lowered, from a conviction, that the reduction would be attended with benefit, to the people and to the revenue.

Mr. Denison

would support the motion, because he thought his hon. friend had demonstrated, that the alteration would save a large sum in the collection of the revenue, while at the same time it would materially serve the poorer classes. The saving might be over-rated; but that it would be very considerable he had no doubt, and that was a sufficient reason for going into the committee, where alone they could ascertain the precise amount—The chancellor of the Exchequer had said, that the rich as well as the poor were supplied from the public breweries. This was the case, he would admit, in London; but it was not in town that the rich incurred the great consumption of beer, but in their larger establishments in the country, where the old style of hospitality was maintained, and where the rich man could supply himself with the article 100 or 130 per cent cheaper than the poor person. A reduction of the beer duty was not only called for on the score of justice and economy, but to promote the morals of the people, by counteracting the pernicious practice of dram-drinking. He should therefore give his vote in favour of the motion.

Mr. Cripps

said, there was no tax more evaded than the tax on malt. The number of private maltsters who contrived to carry on their business in spite of the vigilance of the Excise officers, was inconceivable to those who had hot the means of inquiring into the subject. To increase this tax would increase the evil, and he should therefore oppose the transfer of the beer duty to malt. There were no complaints of the beer tax as an unequal tax, and therefore it was to be presumed, that it was not felt to be such by the people. If, on the other hand, they reduced a part of the malt tax, he had no doubt the result would be most beneficial both to the revenue and to the agricultural; interest.

Mr. Monck

said, he was sorry he could hot support the motion of the hon. member for Abingdon. If there was an inequality in the beer tax, it was an inequality which had existed from the very origin of the Excise. It was known that the tax on beer was a part of the hereditary revenue of the Excise, given to Charles 2nd in lieu of the wards and liveries; while it was not until the reign of William, that the landed interest would submit to a malt tax, justly considering it as a species of land tax, because the great consumption of malt was in the beer given to farmers' labourers. Now, he thought that, so far from amending an inequality by adopting the proposed motion, they would be exactly introducing one. The existing one was only apparent, while the proposed substitute would be real. The true way of looking at any large tax was, to watch its general operation; and he denied that, in the present case, the duties were partial. Let them look at the weight which at present fell upon the shoulders of the landed interest. They had to bear almost exclusively the poor-rates. They had exclusively the conveyance of vagrants, the county-rates, the high-ways, and several other local imposts, which did not belong to other classes of the community. It was absolutely necessary that some sort of boon should be given to the landed interest, as a compensation for these exclusive burthens. If the hon. gentleman wished for absolute equality, he might as well press for the repeal of the legacy duty, because it pressed on personal property only; the legislature having conceived, in passing it, that the land was already sufficiently burthened by other impositions. In many parts of the country, and in the country towns, many of the poor people brewed their own beer; and if the practice was not more general, it was on account of the duty, already too high, which was levied on malt. He was firmly convinced, that if the present motion were carried* the poorer classes, instead of being served, would be injured. He denied that there was any analogy between the case of England and of Ireland. There was no consumption of beer in Ireland, as there was in England, either among the rich or poor; for the rich in that country drank wine, and the poor whisky. Agriculture in Ireland was hot burthened with the poor-rates, the land-tax, and such assessments. Not concurring in the opinion that benefit would accrue from the adoption of this motion, he must give it his opposition.

Captain Maberly

said, there was an inconsistency in the argument of the hon. gentleman who had just spoken, and who had at first contended that it was improper to remove this tax, because, in other respects, the taxes on land were unequal. He told them, in the first place, that the land paid the poor-rates, the county-rates, &c. which personal property did not pay, and that therefore the taxation was unequal; but, on the other hand, he stated, that personal property was charged with the legacy duty, and the tax on the probate of wills, which the land was not charged with. While the hon. gentleman contended for the inequality of the system of taxation, as it affected land, he, with the same breath, admitted that it was equal. The chancellor of the Exchequer had contended, that the taking off of the beer duty would drive the poor to the public house. But, did he not know, that if they took off the duty on beer, it would be in the power of a much greater number of the poor to drink it at home, because at present beer could not be hawked abroad in quantities convenient for the poor to purchase and consume at home? He thought the arguments of his hon. relative had not been answered, and should therefore vote for the motion.

Lord Althorp

said, that on the best consideration he had been able to give to the subject, he felt himself bound to vote against the motion. He thought his hon. friend proceeded on the old fallacy, that two and two in taxation always made four. He calculated more than he had a right to do, on the effect of the measure in reducing the expense of collection. From the great inducements to fraud, he thought that reduction would not be practicable, to any considerable extent.

Mr. C. Smith

opposed the motion for going into a committee.

Mr. Maberly

replied. He said, that the propositions contained in his motion went to shew the inequality that existed in the duties on malt and beer; and he had heard no argument whatever on the other side, to prove that that inequality did not exist. Indeed, that inequality was quite notorious; notwithstanding which the chancellor of the Exchequer had opposed his motion for a committee. It had been stated, that the saving, which he had estimated at 295,000l., had been overstated; but his statement was founded upon the apportionment of the commissioners themselves; and then, to his astonishment, the chancellor of the Exchequer said, "Oh! you must not depend on those statements; they are not correct." Was it not monstrous to hear it advanced in that House, by a chancellor of the Exchequer, that the House was not to depend upon his own accounts? What other guide had a member to goby, than the public documents which were presented for his inspection? Upon these documents, however, he should stand; for the chancellor of the Exchequer had not advanced a single argument to refute the inferences which he had drawn from them. He considered the present system a most unfair, unequal, and oppressive land tax, of the worst description, because it fell upon the consumer. Not- withstanding what had been said by an hon. gentleman opposite, he would contend, that if the agricultural portion of that House understood their own clear, distinct interest, they would adopt the principle of a more equal taxation. They all seemed to argue the question as if this tax fell exclusively upon them; whereas, in fact, it only affected them in their capacity of consumers. The hon. member for Norfolk had expressed his surprise, that having failed last year, he should again bring forward the proposition now; but he could assure that hon. member, that he would do the same thing next year, and repeat it every year, as long as he had the honour of a seat in that House. The tax which he now sought to remove was that under which all the frauds had been committed, namely, the mixing of the article; for upon the malting, according to the evidence of the officers of Excise who had been examined, although the frauds were formerly considerable, they were now exceedingly rare. Much had been said respecting domestic brewing. He thought it was desirable, and he was one of those who practised it; yet, in consequence of the superior skill and advantages of the public brewer, there was little saving in it; but he thought that, if all the duties were equalized, and if all the beer which was consumed was manufactured by the public brewers, it would be had on much more reasonable terms. The chancellor of the Exchequer had said, that he was disposed to argue that an equality of duties was the proper principle for legislation; but, when it was distinctly shewn on the face of the motion that this inequality existed, he would not consent to enforce the principle which he approved. Even for the sake of consistency, after such a declaration, the right hon. gentleman ought to consent to the appointment of a committee.

The House divided: Ayes 26: Noes 130.

List of the Minority.
Anson, hon. G. Lennard, T. B.
Barrett, S. M. Maberly, W. L.
Bennet, hon. H. G. Mackintosh, sir J.
Bernal, R. Martin, J.
Bright, H. Newport, sir J.
Butterworth, J. Nugent, lord
Denison, J. Rice, T, S.
Fergusson, sir R. Robarts, G.
Hobhouse, J. C. Robarts, A. W.
Hutchinson, hon. C. Smith, John.
Leader, W. Smith, William.
Sykes, D. Wood, M.
Tierney, right hon. G. TELLERS.
Whitbread, S. C. Maberly, J.
Williams, W. Hume, Joseph.