HC Deb 11 March 1824 vol 10 cc926-7

Mr. Jones having moved the second reading of this bill,

Mr. Allen

described the proposed measure as being trifling in its remedy, and likely to be most pernicious in its effects. The defect of the existing system was, that it was opposed to the due administration of justice. The evil of the present jurisdiction arose from the extraordinary number of the Welsh judges, and the want of employment for them. He had a strong objection to the intermediate employment of the Welsh judges as counsel, and to their liability to form personal connexions, as agents to noblemen and others, which must derogate from the dignity of the judicial situation. He also thought, that so far as property was concerned, one great evil was, the difficulty of procuring special juries, a privilege only to be obtained by motion in open court, and then, when the assizes in some places lasted only two days, it was impossible to summon the special jurors within the time required by the law. The hon. and learned member entered into a technical statement of the different duties that attached to the judges in the principality of Wales, as at present constituted. He said, he should recommend that the courts of Westminster-hall should be thrown open to Wales, as it was to the people of England, and that the decisions of the courts of the principal^ should be open to revision. He would get rid altogether of those vagrant courts of chancery, which were only employed in injunctions and discoveries, without at all leading to any useful practical result. The hon. and learned gentleman concluded by moving, as an amendment, "That the bill be read a second time upon this day six months."

Mr. Jones

defended the principle of the bill, and contended, that its provisions would be extremely salutary. He maintained that the courts of chancery in Wales, instead of being an evil, were the best part of the local jurisdiction. There was not a single county in Wales in favour of the abolition.

Sir C. Cole

approved highly of part of the bill, but thought that the principle of it was not carried far enough. The same reasons which were deemed sufficient to disqualify the judges of England from sitting and voting in that House, surely ought to be sufficient to disqualify the judges of Wales also. If any member would move a clause disqualifying the Welsh judges from sitting in that House, he would give it his cordial support.

Mr. Wynn

was of opinion, that the best thing that could happen to Wales, would be the abolition of the present jurisdiction, with a view to assimilate the Welsh jurisdiction to that of England; but that could not be accomplished without many concurrent measures. The English judges had quite enough to do at present; and it would be bad economy to appoint two judges, who would only have to officiate for six weeks in the year, and that too in a particular part of the kingdom. He was anxious that the bill should proceed to a committee.

The House then divided. For the amendment 19; against it 42 Majority, 23. The bill was then read a second time.

List of the Minority.
Althorp, visc. Monck, J. B.
Bennet, hon. H. G. Russell, lord J.
Buxton, T. F. Rice, T. S.
Cromptom, S. Sykes, D.
Evans, W. Smith, J.
Grattan, J. Smith, R.
Hobhouse, J. C. Webb, col.
James, W. Whitmore, W. W.
Kennedy, T. F. TELLERS.
Lamb, hon. G. Allen, J. H.
Lennard, T. B. Hume, J.