§ The House having resolved itself into a committee of supply, Mr. Herries moved "That 40,000l. be granted to defray the expences of Works and repairs of Public Buildings, for the year 1814."
Mr. Bankessaid, that in this vote he observed that some of the repairs now going on in the neighbourhood of the House were included. He apprehended that the works at the House of Lords with the new avenue, were also included in it. Now he could not help taking notice, on this occasion, of the very unsatisfactory manner in which these alterations had been performed. He wished, before the House came to the vote, to have an opportunity of knowing what further was to be done in respect of them; and particularly how far the work of destruction of those ancient and venerable monuments of art, that once surrounded the House of Lords and the parts adjacent, was intended to be carried? He was very sure that had the House, last session, been aware of the mischief that was to be done, they never would have sanctioned the proceedings of those, who had demolished so much of the remains of the most interesting edifices. He himself had been a witness of the demolition of a part of that old palace at Westminster, near the House of Lords, anciently called the Prince's chamber,—a fabric, the side of which was now converted into something that he would not mention; but that was not excuseable upon the ground even of being necessary; yet these were ruins, the interest of which was connected with a period of some antiquity and of much celebrity. The palace was of a time not later, he was sure, than the reign of Edward III. It was quite unnecessary to destroy this very curious relic; because, without interfering with any design that had been in unison with it, it would have been perfectly easy to underprop what remained of the building. He was also desirous to know what had been the expenses already incurred in that very strange and anomalous building which 624 was intended for the avenue of his Majesty in his entrance to the House of Lords. This erection not only obstructed the space that was necessary for the carriages of peers and members of parliament, but was a thing of such strange and absurd proportions, that it was impossible to look at it without a feeling of disgust. He should therefore take the liberty of moving, for an account of the expenses incurred in the repairs of the ancient buildings in and about the House of Lords, and of the sums expended, with a profusion and waste of public money, upon that which was neither more nor less than a violation of the national taste. When the committee came to the item relative to the courts of justice, he should have another opportunity of calling their attention to a similar subject. He had no wish to interrupt the necessary works going on, by an inconvenient proposition; but he was anxious to see the accounts he had spoken of.
§ Mr. Grey Bennetsaid, he would support the motion of the member for Corfe Castle. For his own part, he wished the hon. Secretary would inform the committee who the architect was, in order that the public might know whom to avoid. While he wished that they might not again run the risk of wasting so much money, and of decidedly violating every thing like taste, he was equally anxious to know who they were, who had overlooked the plans for these alterations, in order that such supervisors might not be put again in requisition.
Mr. Herriessaid, that there was an account of expenses at present incurred in these public works, amounting to 10,800l., which should be furnished forthwith.
§ Mr. G. Bennetsaid, he was still uninformed who was the architect, and who the members of the committee of taste, at the time when his plans were furnished.
The Chancellor of the Exchequerconfessed that he was not all surprised that this subject should have attracted the attention of the House. He did think it necessary that some alteration should take place in the system upon which these works were carried on. The answer to the hon. member for Shrewsbury must be what his hon. friend anticipated in asking the question; the architect was Mr. Soane; the authority under which these alterations had taken place, was the Board of Works; and he thought it very desirable that henceforward the public respon- 625 sibility for all works of this kind should be vested in the Treasury. The fact was, that at present the Treasury was not responsible for these matters, and of course could not control the high notions which the architect or the Board of Works might have formed of the taste in which buildings of this kind should be erected. He conceived the proper duty of the Board of Works to be to take care that the old public works should be kept in repair, and that proper materials should be provided for the new ones. He would endeavour to frame some system upon which there should be in that House some officer like himself, responsible for what occurred in his department, and upon which the whole power might be vested in the Treasury.
§ Mr. Tennysonobserved, that the buildings of the old palace at Westminster were almost sacred in this country, as the birth-place or abode of our early kings and princes. The hon. member for Corfe Castle had well remarked, that they seemed all now devoted to destruction. It might be necessary to remove some part to make room for the new buildings carrying on in the vicinity; but what had become of the painted chamber, about the beauty of which so much had been said? What was the character of the building raised in its place? Could any thing be more incongruous, or more inconsistent? He understood it was also the intention to remove the House of Lords; which, by the by, was about the very finest room in London. But in what taste was it proposed to rebuild the House?—In the Gothic; or the Grecian? The hon. gentleman animadverted in strong terms on the incongruous absurdities that were manifested in the modern additions of mongrel architecture evinced in the new entrance to the House of Lords, and expressed his obligations to the hon. member for Corfe Castle for bringing forward the matter.
§ Mr. Humespoke of the condition of the Record-office behind Abingdon-street. Having occasion last session to consult some records, he found it impossible to decipher them, such was their damp and neglected state. It was true the building was fire-proof; but the access to it was singularly inconvenient. Himself and his friends were obliged to go, in single file, up a narrow staircase, between walls that were seven feet in thickness, but little calculated for the 626 purposes of facility or convenience. He hoped the chancellor of the Exchequer would pay some attention to the subject, and consider what plan could be adopted to remedy the defects which he had pointed out.
§ Mr. Crokeragreed with his right hon. friend, that there ought to be a responsible person in that House, answerable as well for the plan as for the execution of all great national works. It was not merely the expense which must attend this or any other work, nor its inapplicability to the purpose for which it was erected, but also the disgrace which it might reflect on the national taste, that ought to be considered by parliament. Taking this view of the subject, he had always thought that the discretion would be best lodged with the Treasury; and he was glad to find that his right hon. friend was of the same opinion. He was certain that, when they saw there was a real control over the erection of public works; when they saw that a system of good taste was adhered to; the people would no longer allow themselves to be charged, as had hitherto been the case, with niggardliness in granting sufficient funds for the construction of necessary public buildings, because they would not wish to sanction the formation of a structure that would only be a monument of their own disgrace. He had seen it stated in the newspapers, that that fine ancient edifice, the painted chamber, was about to be taken down, that building which five hundred years ago was denominated perillustre in every part of Europe and which had ever been viewed as the most perfect and beautiful specimen of art which that day afforded. It was the oldest of our national works, and united within itself the grandeur of architecture with the elegance of painting. He should feel a very great degree of regret if this building which, five hundred years ago had been celebrated in Europe, should now be consigned to destruction. He understood from a gentleman in all respects calculated to give an opinion on the subject, that the state of the paintings and buildings was perfectly surprising—that the walls were as firm as if only built yesterday. It would give him the greatest pain if this ancient building were pulled down for the purpose of erecting one of those modern gew-gaws which were raised in. a month, and disappeared almost as soon. He should be exceedingly rejoiced if he 627 heard from his right hon. friend, that no consent would be given to the destruction of this ancient building, unless some better reasons than any which he had yet heard were adduced in support of that proceeding.
§ Mr. Humeinquired whether, in the estimate now before the committee, the expenditure for the repairs of St. James's Palace was included?
§ Sir J. Mackintoshsaid, that the system of undistinguishing destruction with respect to ancient royal palaces, and other venerable buildings, which had been so prevalent of late years was not in unison with the feelings and sentiments of English men, and had certainly been carried a great deal too far. The most venerable remains of antiquity had been removed with very little regret or consideration. The palace of Westminster was of very great antiquity, and ought to be held in peculiar reverence, in consequence of the scenes which, in former times, had taken place in it. It was there that the constitution of this country was finally settled. It ought, not therefore, to be touched. The pulling down of buildings which had been the scene of such important and interesting transactions was almost sacrilegious. It tended to destroy national feeling and moral sentiment. It was calculated to weaken that due veneration which ought to be cherished for what had been so well done by our ancestors, and which had been left by them as a sacred legacy to their posterity. For upwards of three hundred years the conferences between the two Houses of Parliament had been held in the painted chamber; and he should greatly lament if any profane hand were suffered to pull it down. He could not help adverting to the new building which now showed its front so impudently in the face of Westminster Abbey. That building was called Grecian—for no other reason that he could conceive, but that it was not English, it was not national so it had been denominated Grecian. He only regretted, if a necessity existed for the erection of the new courts, that it should have been carried to the north entrance of Westminster-hall, which had been so well restored, but which was now disgraced and deformed by the contiguity of the new structure. As an hon. friend observed to him, that building, if it were Grecian, must be of the Bœotian order. 628 He, however, instead of calling it Grecian, must denominate it most barbarous.
Mr. Herriesobserved, that the vote now before the committee had nothing to do with the royal palace of St. James's, a charge on the civil list of 40,000l. being applicable to repairs making in that quarter.
§ Mr. Humethought that, looking at the state of those buildings, it would be better to pull down the whole of them and erect a new palace. We ought to have a palace suitable to the dignity of the monarch of this country, instead of suffering ourselves to be laughed at by every state in Europe, for not having a building fit for a royal residence. The most petty sovereigns abroad were possessed of much finer buildings in every respect, than those in which our sovereign was lodged. It would be much better to take down St. James's palace, than to squander away large sums in tasteless repairs.
The Chancellor of the Exchequersaid, that as to the palace of St. James, he could not see that the repairs ought to occasion any reproach for want of taste, since the national character of that building had been entirely preserved; and he thought that what had been done would be found of material advantage to the public, so far as they were concerned; and doubtless they were concerned in having a proper access to the royal par lace. He agreed in what had been said on the subject of royal palaces in town. He admitted that there was not a royal residence in London at all commensurate with the wealth of the country, or the dignity of the monarch. The hon. gentler man must, however, be aware, that to build a palace on a commensurate scale of magnificence, would create a very great expense. Besides, it should be recollected, that the alterations at St. James's had been commenced under circumstances extremely different from those which prevailed at the present moment. He apprehended, that if, two years ago, a million, or a million and a half, had been demanded for the erection of a palace, such a proposition would not have been received with any great degree of approbation.
Colonel Daviesdid not think the alteration was a good one. St. James's palace looked more like an almshouse than a kingly residence, and was a disgrace to the country.
§ Sir T. Baringsaid, they had a great number of palaces, many of which might 629 be pulled down with advantage. They had St. James's palace, Hampton-court palace, Buckingham-house, Kew-palace, Kensington-palace and at Brighton they had a building he knew not what to call it, but he believed it was sometimes styled the Kremlin. Now, instead of voting 300,000l, for Windsor-palace and 40,000l. for repairs in public buildings, it would be much better to dispose of the ground on which St. James's palace stood and with the produce the might build a palace in some more appropriate situation and unite with it a gallery for the reception of specimens of the fine arts at a small additional expense. Kew might be disposed of, St James's might be disposed of and a splendid palace erected in a suitable situation. Carlton-house might be the private town residence of the monarch, and Windsor his place of residence during the summer.
§ Mr. Brightadmitted that they had no palace in England at all to be compared with those which were to be found in other countries. Still, be was decidedly opposed to the expenditure of a large sum of money on the erection of a new palace.
§ Mr. Jamessaid, they ought not to think of building a new palace until the war-taxes were taken off.
§ Sir M. W. Ridleysaid, he would put it to any individual in that House, or out of it, whether there was any person in his majesty's dominions; so ill lodged, considering his rank as his majesty was? A large sum of money, in different small repairs and embellishments, had been hitherto thrown away. But a good opportunity now occurred to put an end to that error. Carlton-house was in such a state, that it could not long go on, unless it received substantial repairs. The foundation was not good, and the walls were in a bad state. Both required substantial repairs. It would require a considerable time and a large sum of money, to erect a palace: but he called on the House to place his majesty in a suitable situation, which would render it unnecessary to build a palace at this moment. Those trifling repairs in the different palaces should be stopped, and means should be taken to provide for the erection of a grand national palace at once. It would be true economy in the end.
§ Lord Miltonsaid, he was sorry to see gentlemen vying with each other in recommending the erection of buildings 630 which must lay the country under a very heavy expense. It was too much because they were gradually extricating themselves from their difficulties, because the country was in a better state than it had been in for some years, that therefore they should immediately run the race of extravagance and profusion. His chief reason for rising was, to notice the proposal of the hon. baronet who was anxious for the sale of some of the royal palaces. This was a very favourite notion with some persons, but he hoped it would never be acted on. At least he trusted that Hampton-court would not be selected either for sale or destruction. One circumstance must ever endear it to Englishmen: it had been the residence of the great founder of their liberties, king William.
§ Mr. Grey Bennetthought this sum of 40,000l. ought to be voted for the attainment of some decided specific object. It was demanded for the repair of public buildings; and here there were three royal residences not one of them in repair, which were to be improved at the same moment. He saw no necessity for this. As to a new palace, if he stood alone in that House he would resist the building of any palace at all.
Sir C. Longsaid, it was absolutely necessary to grant money for this purpose, if they wished to keep the buildings in existence. As to the question of taste, which had been referred to, the committee to whom allusion had been made, had nothing to do with the charge that had been insinuated against them. Of that committee, his hon. friend (Mr. Bankes), as well as himself was a member; and his hon. friend must know, that their business was limited to the deciding on drawings for national monuments. With regard to the new courts (he would not call them Grecian, for certainly their architecture was not Grecian; nor any thing else that he knew of), the only reason he could perceive for building them by the door of Westminster-hall was, that there had been buildings there before.