NAVY ESTIMATES. (Hansard, 20 February 1824)

§ Sir G. Clerk
having moved, "That 57,670l. 15s. be granted for defraying the salaries and contingent expenses of the Navy-office for the year 1824,"

§ Mr. Hume
took that opportunity of calling the attention of the hon. baronet to a subject which was connected with the vote before the committee. He un- 297 derstood, that great dissatisfaction existed among the lower class of workmen in the dock-yards, on account of the reduction which had been made in their wages since the conclusion of the war; which reduction they conceived to be much greater in proportion to the amount of their wages, than the reduction which had taken place in the salaries of the persons who held situations above them. He did not know whether the attention of government had been called to the circumstance; but he had received information to the effect which he had stated.

§ Sir G. Clerk
contended, that the workmen had no just ground of dissatisfaction. Until about a year ago the quantity of work had been reduced, instead of diminishing the wages or discharging the men; but the system had been recently changed, and a general reduction of 20 per cent in the price of labour had been effected.

§ Mr. Hume
begged to know, whether any remedy had been discovered, and what had been the result of the recent experiments to put a stop to the progress of the dry-rot in the navy?

Sir B. Martin
said, that there was less dry-rot in the navy at present than at any former period. Immersion of the wood in salt water was now practised, and the use of coal-tar discontinued. For the latter circumstance he was sorry; because he believed the use of coal-tar to be attended with good effects. It was quite certain that the dry-rot had greatly decreased since the termination of the war; and he was convinced that the ships which had been built since that period would be of longer duration than any which had been constructed before. In consequence of the allusion which had been made on a former occasion to Mr. Burridge's book on the dry-rot, he had taken the trouble to read that work through, and he did not hesitate to say that it was fallacious from the beginning to the end.

§ Mr. Hume
observed, that he could not vouch for the truth of all that Mr. Bur-ridge had advanced, but there certainly were some of his statements which deserved to be seriously considered, and he intended to bring them under the notice of the House at a future period. He wished to receive information on two other points; namely, whether the U6e of foreign timber had been abandoned in ship- 298 building; and whether, in the contracts which had been made by government, it had been stipulated, that the timber should be felled in winter instead of the summer?

Sir B. Martin
said, that government had contracted for both foreign and native timber, but that no stipulation had been made that it should be felled at any particular period. When the hon. member should bring the subject of the dry-rot before the House, he would show that the dry-rot had been most destructive to our shipping during the last hundred and fifty years, and that it had only begun to disappear since the conclusion of the war.

§ Sir J. Wrottesley
said, that the answers to the numerous inquiries he had made upon the subject showed, that the durability of timber was much greater if it were felled in the winter, when the sap was down, than in the spring when it was rising, or in the summer, when it was up.

§ Mr. Hume
wished to be informed whether any persons had been sent out to Bermuda to report on the extensive works going on there, and if so, what had been the result?

§ Sir G. Clerk
answered, that Mr. Jessop had been sent out, and that he had given a very favourable report of the place, as a station for shipping.

§ Mr. Hume
asked, whether any other report had been made?

§ Sir G. Clerk
said, that the report of Mr. Jessop was so satisfactory, and he was a man of so much skill and knowledge, that no other information was needed.

§ Mr. Bright
considered the naval establishment in Bermuda of the utmost importance, and he had some doubts whether ministers were about to ask for money enough to continue the works. It would be thirteen or fourteen years' before they would be completed; and as in the event of war, the island might be easily taken, it was very material that as soon as possible it should be put in a state of defence. He begged to inquire if ministers had done any thing with regard to the settlements made by the United States in the South of Florida? He did not desire, however, that any inconvenient disclosures on the subject should be made.

Sir G. Cockburn
said, that although of course this country could not object to the United States making any establishment they pleased upon the coast of Florida, yet that ministers, as was their duty, had kept a watchful eye upon their proceedings. Thus much he felt himself at liberty to say.

Mr. Calcraft
begged to observe, that he thought the case of the midshipmen was a very hard one as to half-pay. "Whatever had been their services, or however they might be entitled by their skill and merit, it was often totally out of the power of the Admiralty to grant them any promotion. Now, it appeared to him, that it would be but fair and expedient, to select a certain number of midshipmen, on the principle, for example, of length of service. At present, very many in this class of officers were obliged to turn their attention to some other employment for subsistence, and thus, meritorious individuals though they might be, they were lost to the service for ever. He conceived that a certain proportion might be selected, to whom half-pay should be given (and the whole amount could be but small), as a retaining fee, whenever the country might require their services.

§ Sir G. Clerk
said, that the subject was one of great importance, and had occupied the attention of the Admiralty; but there were many difficulties in the way of it, and he was sure that the particular mode suggested by the hon. member could not be adopted. He might add, that many promotions had of late been made by the Admiralty to lieutenancies, on the ground of length of service alone, and that in this way all the midshipmen had been promoted who had passed examination down to the year 1814.

Mr. Calcraft
said, he was not at all tenacious as to the mode in which the purpose he had in view was effected: but he certainly thought, that in some way or other, provision should be made for a certain number of midshipmen; and he was convinced that no objection would be made by parliament to a vote of 5 or 6,000l. for a moderate half-pay for this useful class.

Sir G. Cockburn
returned thanks as a naval officer, rather than as a member of the Admiralty board, to the hon. member, for the attention which he uniformly paid 300 to the navy, and particularly to the meritorious class of officers he had mentioned. The subject was one of great importance; but, as his hon. colleague had said, it was beset with difficulties.

§ Mr. Hume
wished to know, as to the naval officers on half-pay in general, whether they were in the same situation now as they were after the American war—whether, for instance, a lieutenant or other officer could command, or take any situation, in merchant vessels, and under what limitation, without running the hazard of losing his commission?

§ Sir G. Clerk
said, that a lieutenant might command a merchant vessel, with the leave of the Admiralty. The leave of the Admiralty was necessary; because, by the regulations of the half-pay, which had existed ever since the reign of Geo. 2nd, the officers of the navy on half-pay were obliged to reside at a sea port; but the leave was freely granted, with the exception of the command of small packets where hire was taken for passengers; which was thought to be below the dignity of an officer holding the rank of lieutenant in the navy.

§ Mr. Hume
.—Did the same regulation as to packets exist at the end of the American war?

§ Sir G. Clerk
.—Exactly the same.

§ Mr. Hume
.—I understand that very considerable fees are taken on the leave granted.

§ Sir G. Clerk
.—A fee is taken.

§ Mr. Hume
.—This is a great hardship on the officers of the navy, and should be done away with. There was a return some time ago, of 19,000l. fees taken in this way. Officers of the army applying for leave, pay no fees. Why, then, should officers of the navy be subjected to such a tax? The honourable and gallant officer opposite had been understood upon a former night to say, that masters of the navy had not been more generally promoted, on account of their not being able to pass their examinations. Now, he (Mr. H.) considered this class of officers to be a highly meritorious set of men. He found their total number as it stood in the last list, to be 551; since which list, 76 had been set aside. Perhaps it would be better to retain them for the service of the public, against their experience and talents might be needed. There were now left, therefore, 475 masters, 250 of whom were at present employed in the merchant service, or sub- 301 sisting on the very small half-pay allowed them. If these men should be wanted, so small was the encouragement held out to them, that it might be a question how far they would be disposed to return to the service. Theirs appeared a case of considerable hardship.

Sir G. Cockburn
observed, that if he had been represented to have said what had just been imputed to him by the hon. member, he could only say, that if persons would look for information to that source which was constantly, and for the purpose, giving a wrong representation of what fell from gentlemen in that House, he was not answerable for such error. What he really did say, on a former night, was, that the masters of the navy were a most useful set of men. It was then observed to him, that originally, every master who chose it, and was judged sufficiently qualified, might rise to the rank of lieutenant; but that that sort of promotion was now put a stop to. His answer had been, that masters could still be promoted, and were now occasionally promoted; and that at one time only, an interval of two years, occurring about 20 years since, had this rule been interrupted. That with regard to other persons rising to be masters, and he meant seamen of course, no other restriction was imposed upon their promotion, but their sustaining a very strict examination as to ability. This was what he had stated at the time; and if he had been wrongly reported, as he generally was, it was no fault of his.

§ Mr. Hume
said, he had seen no report of the hon. and gallant officer's speech; but such had been his understanding.