HC Deb 05 April 1824 vol 11 cc147-71

The House having resolved itself into a committee of Supply.

The Chancellor of the Exchequer

said, that early in the course of the present session he had given notice of his intention to call upon the House to grant his majesty a certain sum of money, which appeared to be within their means, to be applied to the purpose of making certain alterations and repairsin Windsor Castle, which seemed to him, and he trusted would be considered by the committee, becoming the nature and character of that structure. He had stated also that it would be important to the advancement of that object to make some purchases of certain Houses and portions of land, without which the improvement of the Castle and the demesne could not be accomplished. He had further stated, that the probable sum which would be required, as far as it was possible to form an estimate, might be taken at 800,000l.; but that all which he meant to ask for in the present session, was half that sum. It would not be necessary to trouble the committee with a repetition of the observations he had made, to explain the grounds upon which it appeared to him fitting and proper that that ancient and venerable structure, so long the chosen residence of the monarchs of this country, should be treated with that respect which parliament and the country had ever evinced, with a view to uphold the splendor and magnificence of the monarch who reigned over them. However, it would be necessary that he should state the mode in which it appeared to government that this money could be best applied. The first object which was to be considered, was the personal comfort and convenience of the monarch. Every one who was acquainted with Windsor Castle must know, that the apartments usually occupied by his majesty were in many respects extremely inconvenient, on account of a want of proper communication between them, which was only obtained by cutting off parts of different rooms, and thereby destroying the proportion of the building; and no one could deny, that the palace which the monarchs of the country had chosen for their general residence, should not be deficient in comforts and conveniences, for want of the necessary funds which the public were bound, and had always been accustomed, to supply. It was to accomplish this object that their exertions should be directed in the first instance. It would be material to make, what did not at present exist, a convenient access from that part of the castle which was appropriated to private use, to what were usually denominated the state apartments. There were many purposes to which this part of the castle was applicable. Then there were apartments which had been known for centuries by the name of the king's state-rooms, and others that were equally well known by the name of the queen's state-rooms. Between these rooms and those which the king usually occupied, it was only fitting that there should direct and commodious communication. Now, it was impossible for the king to go into the state apartments from his private apartment at present, without making a considerable detour, and without encountering several inconveniences, to which, for various reasons, he ought not to be subjected. To open a free communication between these distinct parts of the castle was the second object to which this sum of money would be applied. The third had also reference to the state apartments. Nobody would deny that they ought to be maintained with a degree of splendor that was becoming the sovereign who ruled over the country, and also the country over which he ruled. It was therefore proposed that a certain part of the grant should be applied to the embellishment and improvement of this part of the castle. It was also not impossible that it might be advisable to make some alterations, though not to any great extent in the interior of the castle. The committee were aware, that at different periods several alterations had been made in its interior, and those not always consistent with the age and character of the pile, or conducive to the convenience of those who occupied it. It might perhaps be as well, now that they were occupied in repairingand beautifying this venerable structure to remove also the unsightly alterations which ignorance and bad taste had made in it. The committee were aware, that there had already been a removal of certain buildings reserved for the residence of certain officers of state, which though not belonging to the castle, were placed directly before it. The buildings to which he alluded ran across the long walk, intercepted the view over it, and were one of the greatest eye-sores that could be well imagined to any person who was anxious to obtain a distinct view of Windsor-castle. It had therefore been thought advisable to remove them altogether. Besides these buildings, there were others which were objectionable as deformities in themselves, and still more objectionable as deformities growing upon that otherwise beautiful structure. Now, as there could be no difference of opinion as to the propriety of removing buildings so incongruous, he trusted there would also be no difference as to the mode of effecting that removal. Some of these buildings, he must inform the committee, were the property of private individuals, and therefore must be purchased before they could be removed. One of the objects of the grant would therefore be the purchase of those buildings; to which he thought nobody would be averse, who felt at all interested in the beauty of the Castle. The same observation would also apply to the purchase of certain portions of land, which were necessary to the improvement of the domain of Windsor-park. There were at present several detached portions of ground in the hands of private individuals, which were completely surrounded by the Park, and which it would be a great improvement to add to it. These portions of ground were adjacent to the Long-walk. Every body knew that that walk was the most majestic avenue in the world; and yet there were individuals possessed of ground on both sides of it, who could at any moment destroy its grandeur by erecting houses, or streets of houses, upon it. Those individuals, he knew, were willing to part with their property for a suitable remuneration; and, if the committee should be of opinion that the domain of Windsor-park ought to be improved, he did not know of any method by which it could be better improved than by purchasing such portions of land as he had just described.—He had now stated to the committee the objects for which he wanted this sum of 300,000l. He might perhaps be asked,—how it was that he came down to parliament to request Of it so large a sum of money, when he had no detailed estimates, or accounts of the expense to be incurred to lay before it? To such a question he would answer, that it was not easy to draw out estimates upon a subject like the present, especially when there was property to be purchased for which the negotiations had not been concluded, and when there were plans to be considered, of which every portion ought to be discussed before one step was taken to execute them. He said "every portion ought to be discussed," because with-out such discussion they might be involved, as they had already been once this session, in works which it might be unadvisable to bring to a conclusion. It would be particularly unfortunate if any thing Of that kind should occur in the works at Windsor, because they could not be commenced without considerable inconvenience to his majesty—a consideration which he was sure would induce the committee to do every thing in their power to shorten the time during which his majesty must necessarily submit to it. If the committee should refuse to place in the hands of government the funds which it demanded, until it received an estimate of all the expenses to be incurred, the present year would elapse before a single measure could be taken, either to repair or beautify the Castle; and his majesty must remain for another twelve months exposed to all the various inconveniences which he had before attempted to describe. He therefore trusted, that the committee would not think the circumstance of his not detailing the precise nature of the alterations to be made, and the expense to be incurred, a sufficient reason for denying him the sum which he requested. He knew that in asking for the money in the manner he did, he was incurring a serious responsibility on behalf of the government of which he was a member, and that he was calling upon the committee to repose upon the government, in full confidence that it would not allow the money intrusted to its care to be applied to unworthy purposes. That responsibility, however, government was willing to incur, and he trusted that its conduct had been such as to justify the committee in placing in it the confidence he demanded.—There was one part of this subject which he had not yet mentioned, and to which he was particularly anxious to refer; he meant that part of it which referred to the appointment of a commission to superintend the plans, upon the execution of which this sum of 300,000l. was to be expended. Great misapprehension appeared to have prevailed with regard to this commission, In the first place, it never was intended that parliament should have the appointment of this commission, unless it were found necessary to give it powers which no branch of the government at present possessed. As it was not, however, necessary to give them any such powers, there would be no occasion to ask parliament to sanction the commission, and the commission would therefore be issued in the usual manner. With regard to the appointment of a commission, he had heard it stated, that it was not only an unnecessary, but even an unconstitutional measure. He allowed, that a commission would be highly improper, if it were appointed for the purpose of withdrawing from his majesty's govern- ment the responsibility which naturally belonged to it. Some individuals would necessarily be placed in the commission, from the very nature of the offices which they happened to hold; and that being the case, gentlemen would see, that his majesty's ministers were not desirous of throwing oft their own shoulders the burthen which they acknowledged it to be their duty to bear. He fully admitted, on behalf of government, that it was the only party that could be responsible for the expenditure of the money: he likewise admitted, that it was responsible also for another part of this subject—he meant that which related to taste; but, at the same time that he admitted all this, he still thought, that the committee would not be surprised at hearing that those who would become commissioners ex-officio, were anxious to avail themselves of the opinions of other gentlemen, who were fully competent to give trust-worthy opinions. He did not know that it was the part of the executive government, or of the first lord of the Treasury, or of the gentleman who filled the office which he then held—he did not know that it was incumbent upon all or any one of them, that they should be persons skilled in matters of taste. He could not pretend to the character of a man of good taste himself; he should therefore be happy to have the advantage of the judgment of others, to direct him upon any points on which his own might be defective. Mr. Burke had declared, that it was quite hopeless that much attention should be paid by the government of this country to the fine arts; for it was impossible, he said, that our statesmen, either from their education, or from their various occupations, should be much skilled in matters of that kind. And, if he were to judge of the difficulty of performing this part of his duty—if, indeed, matters of taste fell within his duty—from what had already occurred during this session, he should say, that it was by far the most arduous duty that he had to perform. Every one was, to a certain degree, able to condemn, and in all affairs of the world, condemnation implied a proof of a capacity to execute. When, however, it became necessary to consider what ought to be done, and not to find fault with what was already done, then he found that there were scarcely two persons who agreed on any one point. He therefore considered it too much to say, that government ought not to avail itself of the assistance which it could not fail to derive from men of acknowledged taste and ingenuity. Besides, the mode which government was inclined to adopt upon this occasion was not entirely without precedent. In former times of our history, nobody ever thought it requisite that the executive government should have any taste; and, for his own part, he did not know whether it had ever possessed any. Matters of that kind were generally left to the Board of Works, and to the individual who happened to be at the head of it. In consequence of that arrangement, the repairs of Windsor Castle were, on one occasion, left to sir W. Chambers. Whatever opinion the committee might have formed as to the merits of sir W. Chambers—and he, for one, thought that they had been considerably over-rated—he was still thought able to perform the task allotted to him, notwithstanding all the satire which Mason had launched against him in his celebrated "Heroic Epistle." At that time nobody suspected the Treasury of taste, and, as he had before said, over matters of that kind the Board of Works reigned supreme arbiter. In the year 1802, however, when parliament voted a large sum of money for the purpose of perpetuating the gallant achievements of our army and navy, and when it was determined to erect public monuments to the memory of those who had died in bravely fighting the battles of their country—at that period, a measure was adopted, which had been regularly adopted ever since, for the purpose of giving full effect to the resolutions of parliament. A Treasury minute was issued, appointing certain individuals to consider all plans which should be submitted to them, for the erection of monuments to departed worth. Those individuals had been treated in that House with a degree of disrespect which, in his opinion, they little merited. They had been sneeringly denominated "the committee of taste." Now, those individuals had never had any thing to do with the erection of the monuments—to that part of the business the Treasury always looked itself: all that they had to do was, to judge of the plans submitted for their approbation. The system which the Treasury adopted in 1802 had been productive of great advantage; and he believed that a great and visible improvement had taken place in the arts, owing to its having availed itself of the assistance which it then called in, That system, he again repeated, did not deprive the Treasury of any responsibility to which it was before liable: it inspired the public, however, with confidence that the monuments which its gratitude erected to its benefactors were not erected without the sanction of the most competent judges. He therefore considered it productive of great practical benefit, that the executive government could have, through this medium, the advantage of the opinion of those persons who were best able to take a scientific view of such matters, and by the weight of their character to recommend their view to the public generally. It was for that reason that his noble friend at the head of the Treasury and himself thought that the public would be better satisfied if they were authorized to call in to their assistance individuals with the qualifications he had before described. His noble friend, and his right hon. colleague the commissioner of Woods and Forests, would be members of the proposed commission. Without wishing to withdraw themselves from the responsibility which belonged to them, being always ready on his own behalf and on that of his colleagues to come before the House and defend their conduct, taking for his motto "Adsumquifeci—in me convertite voces," he trusted that it would not appear strange that they wished to avail themselves of the assistance of men whose opinions upon points of taste all the country agreed in respecting. He therefore hoped that the committee would not, either on account of the amount of the sum, the principles on which he asked it, the mode in which he intended to apply it, or the assistance which he designed to call in for furthering the objects for which it was wanted, withhold from him the grant of 150,000l. for this year. He should now conclude by moving, "That a sum, not exceeding 150,000l. be granted to his majesty, towards defraying the charge which may be incurred in the year 1824 for Repairs and Works to be executed at Windsor Castle, and for the purchase or exchange of certain lands adjoining thereto; and that the said sum be issued and paid without any fee or other deduction whatsoever."

Sir Joseph Yorke

thought, that nothing required more taste or greater delicacy, than the approach to a question like the present, in which the subject was, the residence of the sovereign, and in the discussion of which it might perhaps be necessary to throw cold water on the ardent speech of the chancellor of the Exchequer. With respect to Windsor Castle, it struck him that, as it had been so long the residence of a race of monarchy all that it was necessary to do regarding it was to keep it in proper repair. For what purpose were they now going to expend this sum of money on that venerable structure? To render it of one uniform style of building? It was well known that the second Charles had altered all the windows to the Saxon arch, and that the third George had altered them to the Gothic arch. If gentlemen would examine the Castle through, they would find, that all the windows were of one or other of these two orders. Now, were the committee going to alter these windows to some standard of uniformity? And, if they were, could they give the country a guarantee that some successor of the present monarch would not alter them back again to their former condition? With regard to the commission, he supposed that, in addition to the noble earl at the head of the Treasury and his two right hon. friends below him, there would be Mr. Smirke from Covent-garden, with Mr. Soane at his back, Mr. Nash, with his Chinese pavilion (on whom, by the by, his hon. friend the member for Corfe Castle, had lately borne rather too hard), and Mr. Wyatt, with his genuine Gothic. In that mixed commission of taste, and arithmetic, and architecture, he did not know what might be done with Windsor Castle; but he suspected, that if his right hon. friend went gallopping on, buying up lands and houses as he had professed that he would do, he would not conclude until he had purchased up the whole town of Windsor. With respect to the proposed alterations, it was very probable that the opinions of architects would be taken, whose ideas were opposed to each other as completely as the four points of the compass. Then, they were to have the assistance of a mixed commission; and, finally, the House of Commons, which never decided any thing, was to be consulted. Under such circumstances, it appeared to him, that they would not form a better building than that which they had at present. He understood it was intended to erect a suspension bridge between Windsor-park and the palace itself. If they went on in this way, he supposed that, ultimately, this venerable royal residence would be taken down, and some extraordinary Gothic structure would be raised on its site, such a structure as would probably excite the astonishment, if not the admiration, of mankind. Though he did not mean to vote against the grant, yet he should not be doing his duty to the country, if he did not call on the House of Commons to approach this subject with some degree of caution. If they did not, it was very likely that a large sum of money would be laid out, and a palace less noble than the present would be the result of the expenditure.

Mr. Bankes

wished to impress on the House the necessity of proceeding cautiously and circumspectly on this occasion. The ill effects of haste and precipitancy were observable in the buildings now erecting in New Palace-yard, by which the beautiful entrance to Westminster-hall was absolutely disgraced. He believed there was not a man in that House who did not wish that those buildings had never been erected. With respect to Windsor Castle, he admitted the necessity of taking down some adjacent buildings, which were objectionable to the commonest and least scientific eye. If that fine edifice were intended to became, as he trusted it would, the permanent residence of the sovereigns of this country, he thought it ought to be repaired in a manner befitting the dignity of the Crown, and the grandeur of this great nation. In such a case, it would be proper to inquire, whether there was sufficient accommodation for the convenience of the sovereign in private, and whether the public apartments were possessed of that splendor which ought to distinguish a court. He believed the fact to be, that the private apartments were by no means commodious, and that those of a public character were not suited to the splendor of a court. A good deal of what had just fallen from his gallant friend struck him very forcibly. His gallant friend had accused him with having, on a former night, spoken slightingly of a certain architect; but, what his gallant friend had said on the present occasion was not much in that individual's favour. He (Mr. B.) was of opinion, that there was no modern architect whose works could be entirely commended. If, for instance, they looked to the new street, they would find some of the buildings remarkably beautiful, whilst others were not deserving of approbation. He conceived that, in forming those apart- ments in Windsor Castle that were to be devoted to public business, one grand prevailing feature of taste ought to be adopted. As to the exterior, the great object ought to be, to pull down as little as possible, and to preserve with the utmost care, the uniformity of style by which the building was distinguished. He wished that the style of architecture of the reign of Edward 3rd, the great monarch in whose reign the Castle was built, should be kept up as much as possible. In order the more effectually to attain the object which government had in view, he thought it was important that a great variety of plans should be obtained from different quarters. These should be submitted for approbation to persons whose knowledge of the subject was generally admitted. His right hon. friend the chancellor of the Exchequer was, he believed, perfectly competent to decide; but, as his other duties might prevent his attending to this subject, it would be proper, that some person should be appointed in the office of the Board of Works, or the Surveyor-general, or elsewhere, not to find fault with any plans that might be sent in, but to insure the selection of the best. It was impossible that his right hon. friend, or the members of the Treasury Board, could compare plan with plan, drawing with drawing, and elevation with elevation. Therefore he wished that duty to be performed by others. It was desirable that the intended palace should be not only beautiful in itself, but that the style of the reign of Edward 3rd should be uniformly preserved in every part. He was quite convinced that, if an attempt were made to restore Windsor Castle to what it was formerly, every application to that House for the funds necessary to carry on the work would receive the most cordial support.

Lord G. Cavendish

was of opinion, that the whole responsibility of this measure ought to rest with his majesty's ministers, and with them alone. There was, undoubtedly, a certain sum proposed to be granted; but, who could say, that double or quadruple that sum would not be demanded before the works were finished? He thought it, therefore, unfair to call on gentlemen who were not connected with his majesty's government to lend their assistance, and they to become responsible, in some degree, for the expenditure of the public money. For his own part, he would recommend those who might be requested to give their aid on this occasion, to refuse the application.

Mr. Curwen

observed, it was very true they had the declaration of the right hon. gentleman that 300,000l, of which the sum now proposed formed a part, would be perfectly sufficient for the intended object; but that declaration was not enough for him. He did not think he would be justified in agreeing to this grant, unless it were proved to him, that the alterations and repairs would not require more. He felt that he should not; be acting fairly towards the public, if he agreed to a plan, with the details of which: he was wholly unacquainted.

Mr. Hume

said, it had been recommended, long ago, by the report of a committee, that no money should be advanced for the purpose of erecting or repairing public buildings, unless a plan and estimate were previously laid before the House. Now, what plan or estimate had been produced on this occasion? They had nothing on which to act, except the statement of the chancellor of the Exchequer: and a more indefinite statement he certainly had never heard. He, therefore, was much surprised, that the hon. member for Corfe Castle should at once give his sanction to this measure. Ground, he understood, was to be purchased. He should like to be informed to what extent. He had been told the purchase of ground would require at least 150,000lHe thought it necessary to stop, in limine, until the whole of the details were before the House. The right hon. gentleman himself did not know what plan would be finally decided on. Why, then, did he call on the House for this grant? Why, did he not wait till the plan was adopted? Whoever was to erect or to repair this building, let the proposed alterations be pointed out to him; and let him submit a plan of the best mode in which the changes could be made, and an estimate of the probable expense. This was the only way in which the subject could be grappled with. If he were rightly informed, one-half of the sum mentioned by the chancellor of the Exchequer would he swallowed up in the purchase of ground. Next year the right hon. gentleman would ask for 50,000l., and the year after for 100,000l. Then, perhaps, he would tell the House, after having expended these sums, that the work must stop short, unless a further; supply were granted. If the plan were to be settled by the 1st of May, why did the right hon. gentleman come down for money now? He believed there was no necessity for this hurry. In his opinion there was at present very good private accommodation at Windsor Castle; and as to holding courts there, he certainly did not think it was necessary. If preparations were to be made for holding a kingly court on an extensive scale at Windsor, they might rest satisfied, that five times the amount of the proposed sum would not be sufficient for the undertaking. The right hon. gentleman told them, that a specific plan would be adopted: but, could he say that his majesty might not hereafter alter it? He must know very well, that the plan laid down on the 1st of May might be altered on the 15th: there was nothing to prevent it. He would not vote against the grant altogether; but he could not vote for it, unless he knew what changes were contemplated, and what the probable expense would be. Certainly, that House would be acting in a way in which they had never acted before, if they voted money for erecting or altering a building of very great extent, without having all the necessary information before them. He hoped, therefore, the right hon. gentleman would see the propriety of postponing this grant, until he was ready to submit his plans to parliament. It would show an utter regardlessness of the public interest, and a decided contempt for various reports made by committees of that House, if they proceeded to vote a sum of 300,000l. without knowing for what specific object. He should therefore move, "That this vote be postponed until the plan and estimate are prepared, and laid on the table."

Mr. Grey Bennet

begged leave to second the motion of his hon. friend. He felt no small alarm at the speech of the right hon. gentleman coupling it, as he did, with the observations of the hon. member for Corfe Castle. In making the alterations at Windsor Castle, which were now threatened, he hoped care would be taken not to disfigure the south front. It was one of the most beautiful specimens of Gothic architecture in the kingdom. It was admired by all as a perfect model of that species of the art, and ought to be preserved with the utmost care. He was, however, afraid, that in the rage for alteration, some unhallowed hand would deform and disfigure that noble piece of art. The late experience which they had had on the subject of architecture was not calculated to remove his apprehensions on this point. They must have remarked with regret the progress of bad taste in architecture, beginning at Brighton and ending in the New street. Such structures had been raised in all quarters, as must excite the disgust of every man who had any pretensions to taste. Buildings of the most strange description had already been erected in the vicinity of Windsor. One of these was a sort of Gothic cottage, with a thatched roof—a sort of thatched Henry the Seventh's chapel, the building of which cost 30,000l. The architect had also raised a red brick tower in Windsor park. That, he understood, was to come down; at least he hoped it would. At Brighton, too, a most extraordinary edifice had been erected, at a great expense. He believed the money for its erection was not voted by parliament, but was taken out of the droits of the Admiralty. That, however, was of little importance. Whether it was taken out of the right hand or the left, it was unquestionably abstracted from funds which might have been made available for the public service. Before they hastily voted the sum now called for, he wished to put the House on their guard against supposing, that the work would be completed for the sum mentioned by the right hon. gentleman. He would put them on their guard, by repeating two words—"Caledonian Canal." Let them recollect the history of that notable work, and pause. They were told, that a certain stipulated sum would be sufficient to finish the canal; but, year after year, they found the same item in the estimates. After 500,000l. had been voted, ministers said, "we want 50,000l. more." Those who objected to the job, called on the House not to throw good money after bad. But ministers always had the ready answer, "Oh! as we have gone so far, let us spend something more, and make the work perfect." Thus, the Caledonian Canal went on; and thus, he believed, those repairs would proceed. Year after year there would be a call for 150,000l., and he believed the youngest man in that House would never live to see Windsor Castle finished. It would take millions of money to complete that work. He would ask of any person who had ever attempted to repair an old house, whether it did not always cost much more than he had supposed it would? He knew, in his own family, that an estimated expenditure of a few hundreds for repairs was ultimately swelled to many, many thousands. He ventured to predict, that, in this instance, the result would be the same. He wished to see the plan, and to know the name of the hardy architect, who would project the pulling down of any part of Windsor Castle. He would not consent, either that the "select many" of the right hon. gentleman opposite, or the "select few" of the hon. gentleman on the floor (who, he supposed, would himself be one of them) should decide on the subject. He wished the plan to be laid before the public: he wished them generally to give their opinion on it; and, above all, he was desirous to learn the name of the architect who entertained the project of pulling down a portion of that ancient and venerable edifice, Windsor Castle.

Sir C. Long

said, that those gentlemen who fancied that any intention of pulling down a part of Windsor Castle was entertained by his majesty's government, laboured under an entire mistake and misconception. He never heard that it was meant to pull down any part of that ancient edifice: he believed such a project never entered into the contemplation of any person. With respect to what had been said as to the responsibility which would be incurred by those whose services might be required in looking at the plans, a great mistake prevailed. In calling on them to examine the plans, it never was intended that they should be at all responsible for the expense that might be incurred. The responsibility, with reference to the expenditure of the public money, would attach solely to his majesty's ministers. His hon. friend, the member for Corfe Castle, appeared to think that Windsor Castle ought not only to be repaired, so as to afford the best possible private accommodation for his majesty, but that great regard should also be had to the splendor of the apartments, to render them fit for holding courts. He, however, never knew that his majesty entertained any intention to keep his court at Windsor. Occasions might arise, when it would be necessary for his Majesty to meet large assemblies there; but the idea of holding courts there never was promulgated. The hon. gentleman who last spoke condemned, in strong terms, any alteration of Windsor Castle, and more particularly any alteration of the south front. Here, again, there was a misconception. He never heard it insinuated that the south front was to be altered. That front was pretty much in the state in which it had been left in the time of Edward, and was undoubtedly, as the hon. member had stated, a very perfect specimen of the architecture of that day. His hon. friend on the floor had suggested the propriety of having the alterations made, as nearly as possible, in the style of the original architecture; This would be done as far as it was practicable: but it would be absurd to have them entirely in that style. Gentlemen would recollect, that at the period when that edifice was founded, castles were built as places of defence, and therefore a species of architecture was adopted, which could not, in some instances, be followed now. Circumstances had rendered the application of that species of architecture improper, in some instances; but care would be taken to preserve as much of the original character of the architecture as it was possible to retain. His hon. friend on the floor had said, that he would invite plans from all quarters. They had tried that system, in many instances; and those who had tried it acknowledged that it was beset with difficulties. It frequently happened, that the man who produced a good plan was totally unable to carry it into effect. He who presented a good plan, always expected to carry it into execution, however inadequate he might be to the task; and it was very difficult, if he were not allowed to carry it into execution, to procure another person who would. It was therefore better that the competition should be confined to a few architects, but that they should be of the first-rate excellence. He conceived that the statement of his right hon. friend was perfectly satisfactory. He had given a general estimate, as nearly as possible—A detailed estimate could not be expected at that moment. His right hon. friend had explicitly stated, that the whole sum required for the necessary purchases, and for the repairs of the Castle, would not exceed 300,000l. The hon. member for Aberdeen asked how it was possible for his right hon. friend to confine the expenditure to the estimated sum? He saw nothing difficult in it. The architect, when called on to give in his plan, would, of course, be told, that he must form such a plan as would come within a specified sum. To that it was his duty to conform. The hon. gentleman seemed to think, that this mode was very objectionable: but, he was quite sure, that if some specific sum were not stated, the hon. gentleman would say, that it was impossible for any one to tell to what extent the expenditure would be carried in the absence of a plan and estimate. The architects would be told, that they would be confined to a certain sum of money; and that, he conceived, was the only mode by which the object could be properly attained. Every thing should be done for the convenience of his majesty; and it was an undoubted fact, that Windsor Castle was not at present in a state fit for his majesty's residence. The communication between the private and the state apartments was very defective, and it would take a considerable sum of money to connect them properly.

Lord J. Russell

quite agreed with the last speaker, that it was proper Windsor Castle should be rendered every way worthy of his majesty's residence. He believed it was at present in such a situation, as made it prudent to delay the necessary repairs as little as possible. Still, however, he should like to know what repairs or alterations were intended. They ought not blindly to vote this money, they knew not for what; with a chance, perhaps, that some part of this ancient edifice would shortly assume the external appearance of a Mahometan mosque. The right hon. knight observed, that the hon. gentleman on the floor was mistaken in supposing that his majesty meant to hold courts at Windsor; and he had also observed, that his hon. friend was in error, when he spoke of the pulling down of the south front. Now, the right hon. knight might be very well informed on this subject; but it was fit that the House also should have some regular information as to what was meant to be done. The vote, he thought, ought to be postponed until they knew the manner in which the money was to be disposed of The right hon. knight observed, that those gentlemen who would be selected to act on the commission, would not be answerable for the expenditure of the money, as the whole of that responsibility would rest on the Treasury. But, if there happened to be a call for more money, or if the building should be repaired in bad taste, there could be no doubt but that the commission would be blamed in a greater or less degree, although they were not lords of the Treasury. He therefore thought it was a situation which those who might be selected for the commission would not like to accept. The chancellor of the Exchequer had said, that this was a subject on which every person could speak the language of censure and condemnation. Now, when that condemnation was flying about plentifully, he, for one, if selected, should say, "I am much obliged to you for this offer, which will enable me to share in the general condemnation, but I must decline accepting it. I would much rather make one of a commission which is likely to be eulogized." The architects might say, "This sum is not sufficient to render Windsor Castle a fit residence for the king; we will give you a plan that will complete the Castle, and make it worthy of the monarch; but it will cost 50,000l. more." The chancellor of the Exchequer would perhaps reject that plan, after having received 150,000l. on account, and no person would know what was to become of that money. The proper course would be, for the right hon. gentleman to come down with a plan and estimate, drawn up by an architect, and then to call for the necessary sum. The architect who might be employed to make the Castle comfortable would be responsible to those who engaged him, not to expend a larger sum than that which was stipulated. It had been stated, that 150,000l. out of the 300,000l. would be required for the purchase of ground. If that were the case, it would be much better to build on the Crown lands, rather than to call-on the public for this money.

Mr. Maberly

wished to know, whether the right hon. gentleman was prepared to say that the vote of 150,000l., now called for, was part of the 300,000l. which he had mentioned in the course of his speech, and whether the House would be called on for no more than this specific sum of 300,000l.? What he wanted distinctly to understand was this—was the 150,000l. which the right hon. gentleman asked for, part of a specific sum which was not to be exceeded; or was it only so much on account of a charge not yet ascertained? He was far from wishing to limit the personal convenience, or to dictate to the taste of the sovereign; and if the chancellor of the Exchequer distinctly declared, that 300,000l. would be the utmost farthing called for, he had no objection at once to vote the 150,000l.; but, unless that assurance was given unequivocally he should certainly support the postponement of the grant, until ministers produced such plans as the House might concur in. He begged to repeat the indisposition he felt to oppose the present grant a moment longer than was absolutely necessary; but he thought that after the monstrous waste of money which had taken place on the schemes of the Caledonian Canal and the Millbank Penitentiary, parliament could not be too cautious how it voted large sums without the authority of plans and estimates.

The Chancellor of the Exchequer

expressed his satisfaction at the ready disposition which appeared in the House to acquiesce in every thing which was necessary for the convenience and honour of the sovereign. Such a disposition was creditable in the highest degree to the House, and the exhibition of it could not fail to give much pleasure to every lover of constitutional monarchy. With reference to that which had just fallen from the hon. member opposite, nothing could be more preposterous, certainly, than for him (supposing he was doing such a thing) to be calling for sums on account of an expenditure which he believed to be indefinite. But, the view which he took of the thing was extremely different. He had stated on a former evening, that the sum to be laid out was 300,000l.; and he now asked, distinctly, for 150,000l. on account of it. He had no hesitation in saying, that certainly nothing which was contemplated—nor any thing, as it seemed to him, which could reasonably be contemplated—would go beyond that charge of 300,000l. Obviously, it was difficult to come to any detailed estimate at the present moment, because a portion of this 300,000l., the House was aware, was to be laid out in the purchase of land and houses adjoining Windsor Castle; and to name any specific, or even any probable sum for such a purchase would, in all likelihood, be for government to raise the market against itself. With regard to the course of alteration which was to be pursued, the hon. member for Shrewsbury was mistaken in supposing that all sorts of tricks were to be played with the outside of the Castle. There had been some buildings of late years added to the main structure, which were not very effective in the way of convenience, and perhaps deformities, rather than otherwise, architecturally considered. These were to come down; but, no hand was to be laid upon the body of the Castle; in fact, the bad taste of making any deviations from the simple grandeur which characterised the building as it stood, was too obvious, under any circumstances, to be fallen into. The course which was proposed was this—four architects of the first eminence were to be called upon to furnish plans, the nature of the work wanted, and the amount of expense allowed, being explained to them beforehand. They were to be shown the want of accommodation for the personal residence of his majesty, and the insufficient communication existing at present between the private residence and the state apartments; and the repairs and improvements which were necessary in the state apartments themselves. They were then to be told. that 300,000l, was all that could be allowed for what was to be done, and that they must frame their plans in such a manner as to lie within the scope of that amount. Now, really, this, he apprehended, was the only reasonable course to pursue. For if architects had been set to work without any notice of What would be paid or what was wanted, each plan would have depended upon the accidental fancy of the gentleman who drew it, and so nothing like an available or definite conclusion would have been got at. Indeed, he could not but feel the more surprised at the objection taken to the present vote, because the House had made no scruple of granting two sums for building last year—17,000l. to the board of Trade, and 40,000l. for the new library to the British Museum—without any demand that plans or estimates should be produced. The right hon. gentleman sat down by stating, that, as far as regarded the question of responsibility, there could be no question that all responsibility belonged to the government. In an affair which was purely a matter of taste, there would be an advantage, and he should feel it, in having opinion to resort to; but the commission was not suggested with any view to screen ministers from blame. Blame, he anticipated none; because he had no doubt that the whole arrangements would be such as to meet the public approbation; but if any blame did arise, it would be the business of the government to meet it; and, although he could not exactly agree that a minister ought to have his head cut off, or even that he ought to be impeached, for such a misdemeanour as bad taste, yet, whatever reasonable consequences accrued out of the present transaction, he should be ready to take his share of.

Mr. Ellice

observed, that the right hon. the chancellor of the Exchequer did those on his side of the House only justice, when he allowed that they had not expressed any objection to put Windsor Castle into a proper state for the residence of his majesty. He perfectly concurred in the expediency of that intention, and hoped that such plans and estimates would be formed respecting it, as would prove satisfactory to all parties. When such plans and estimates should be produced, he was prepared to vote a sum for carrying them into effect, whether the sum required was precisely 300,000l., or whether it was less, or even if it should amount to half a million. Whatever was necessary for his majesty's comfort and dignity he should be prepared to vote; but he repeated, that he must have the distinct plans and estimates before him. To this conclusion all the speeches tended which he had heard, even that of the right hon. gentleman, whose plan was, to use a vulgar expression, to make the architects "cut their coats according to their cloth." The hon. member then proceeded to notice the intended purchase of land and houses at Windsor, and wished to know, whether that purchase might not be paid for by a sale or exchange of Crown lands, instead of putting the country to expense, when the remission of taxes was so very desirable? He should be sorry to see any thing disposed of which tended to the comfort or to the splendor of the Crown. It had been said, for instance, "sell Kew," but he did not like the idea of parting with our palaces or royal gardens. But the ground-rents which had accrued to the Crown out of the new streets in Westminster shed no lustre upon that hrone. Since what was called the hereditary income of the king had been given up for the civil list, there could be no reason why the Crown should have ground to let out to tenants; and the sale of these ground-rents in Westminster might cover the expense of the purchase to be made at Windsor. The hon. member concluded by noticing, with reference to the statement of the chancellor of the Exchequer, as to architects employed, the peculiar merit of a new church which had been built at Chelsea. A want of money had prevented the building from being completed exactly as might have been wished; but no one could look at it without paying a tribute to the talents of the architect.

The Chancellor of the Exchequer

said, that the ground-rents to which the hon. member alluded, were not available to the Crown, but were paid into the consolidated fund. It could make no difference, therefore, whether they were sold to make the purchase at Windsor, or whether money were at once granted for that object.

Mr. Calcraft

thought, it still was not quite clear, that, with reference to the interest of money, a sale might not be advantageous. With respect to the main question, however, most decidedly he wished to see an estimate; because, it might so happen, that an architect, on hearing the sum to which he was limited, would say, that, to do the work properly, that sum was not sufficient. If the chancellor of the Exchequer would pledge himself distinctly not to embark in the work unless he found the 300,000l. would be sufficient to complete it properly, he would give the money now; but, if not, he should vote for the postponement.

The Chancellor of the Exchequer

said, he could have no objection to answer the hon. member's question. Of course, it would be extremely unwise to embark in the present business, either as regarded purchase or building, if the architects represented that 300,000l. was insufficient to perform the work proposed to them, in the way in which it ought to be done. No man, he apprehended, would be likely to plunge himself into bricks and mortar, under such circumstances.

Lord Milton

said, that, as it seemed to him, the chancellor of the Exchequer must support the proposition of the hon. member for Aberdeen; because, the right hon. gentleman pledged himself, that he would not embark in the work, if it should appear upon inquiry that the sum allotted was inadequate to complete it. Then why not make that inquiry at once, and defer the vote until an estimate was prepared? Certainly, ministers ought not to take any money, until they could say that they had seen plans and estimates which led them to believe that the grant would be sufficient.

Mr. Secretary Canning

understood all parties to concur in a desire to further, up to any reasonable amount, the honour and convenience of the Crown. The question was, as to the most expedient mode of managing the transaction. This might be done, certainly, by calling for plans and estimates of expense; but, the excess which in almost every case arose above estimates so furnished, would leave the House still in a state of much uncertainty, as to what the eventual cost of the work would be. Every instance which had been quoted in the course of the debate, showed how very little the accuracy of plans and estimates was to be relied on. The Penitentiary and the Caledonian Canal, were cases in which plans and estimates had been presented, and yet the House had gone further than it originally intended. The better mode, as it seemed to him, of confining the expense within a given limit, would be, to vote the particular sum, and leave the responsibility of not exceeding it, with the government. Whether the burthen were greater or less, in any given way, upon government, the burthen was less upon the House in the way now proposed. He should certainly support the plan of voting at once a de-finite sum.

Mr. Tierney

said, that the right hon. secretary had only done justice to the gentlemen with whom he sat, in stating, that they were actuated by a common wish to do every thing that was necessary for the dignity and convenience of the Crown. But, the security which the right hon. gentleman offered upon the present occasion was such as he (Mr. T.) feared the House could not accept; because a grant of 150,000l., according to the present proposal, would appear upon the votes, and nothing at all to justify it. The right hon. gentleman said, that government took all the responsibility upon itself of confining the ultimate expense of the buildings in question within 300,000l.; but how, in fact, could that be, when the chancellor of the Exchequer stated distinctly, that so far there was no calculation in existence upon the subject? Surely nothing could be more easy than to make the estimates required. There were the repairs to be paid for; the purchase of land and houses; and the interior alterations. Now, the external alterations were matter of measurement; any architect would give the ultimate amount without difficulty. With respect to the land and houses purchased, no difficulty had been found in preparing similar estimates, in the matter of the new Post-office. But here there was no estimate, no explanation given at all. The right hon. gentleman said, "give us 300,000l., and we will ask for no more;" but what a situation did this leave the country in, and even the king! The 300,000l. might turn out to be just enough to spoil every thing that was already existing; and, in such a case, what could ministers do but come down to parliament, and say they had been mistaken; and what could any parliament do under such circumstances, but grant more money to complete the work? He was very sorry to say any thing which had the appearance of opposition to the vote before the House. He wished much to see Windsor Castle put into a sufficient state of fitness and repair, and thought there could be no difficulty in naming an early day for the chancellor of the Exchequer to bring down his estimate; but he would rather vote 500,000l. seeing his way, than give 300,000l. in the circumstances under which the present grant was brought forward.

Mr. Brogden

observed, that according: to the forms of the House, the amendment could not postpone the grant to any specific day. All that could be done was to move its postponement generally.

Lord Milton

only asked to have the House placed where the chancellor of the Exchequer meant to place himself—that it might not be called upon to take any step accompanied with expense, until it was ascertained that the 300,000l. would accomplish it.

Mr. Grey Bennet

said, that part of the work at Windsor Castle had already begun, and adverted to the change which had taken place at Windsor since the death of the late king. The park could not be shut up, for there was a public way went through it; but even the freedom of the park was not given as it ought to be, and the terrace was entirely shut up. He thought this was bad taste, and bad judgment in every way. Nothing-had tended more to the popularity of the late king than the freedom with which he used to walk upon the terrace, in the view of his subjects. He perfectly remembered the effect which the sight had produced upon him when a boy; and it had been one of the most pleasing, as well as of the most impressive description. He did not mean to say any thing offensive; but he thought that a hint should be given by ministers in the proper quarter upon tins subject.

Mr. Hume,

as he could not fix a specific day, was content to move the postponement of the grant in question generally. He hoped that in his division he should have the support of the hon. member for Corfe Castle, and of the member for Wareham; and he begged to remind those hon. gentlemen, that it was almost an order of the House, and certainly a maxim which they had always been in the habit of inculcating, that the House should never embark in any expense without having plans and estimates before it.

Mr. Canning

said, that the terrace at Windsor was open to the public on Sundays, and they had the benefit of the band of music, the same as in time past. It was true, it had not been open to the public on the other days of the week; nor could it, with convenience to the party for whose use and benefit it had been laid out. There was not a foot of ground about the domain to serve for a promenade except the terrace; and certainly it could not be talked of as an innovation, seeing that, for ten years, it had been shut up altogether, and that from circumstances which no human prudence could control.

Mr. Abercromby

complained of the want of a plan and of estimates, to satisfy that proper jealousy which the House ought to entertain with respect to any grant of the public money.

The committee divided: For the resolution 123; for the amendment 54.

List of the Minority.
Abercromby, hon. J. Macdonald, J.
Allen, J. H. Martin, J.
Bennet, hon. H. G. Milton, visc.
Benyon, B. Monck, J. B.
Bernal, R. Normanby, visc.
Birch, J. Nugent, lord.
Blake, sir F. Ord, W.
Bright, H. Oxmanton, lord.
Butterworth, J. Palmer, C. F.
Calvert, C. Philips, G. H. jun.
Colborne, N. Rickford, W.
Crompton, S. Robarts, A. W.
Curwen, J. C. Robarts, G. J.
Ebrington, visc. Robinson, sir G.
Ellice, E. Russell, lord J.
Gordon, R. Smith, J.
Hamilton, lord A. Smith, W.
Hobhouse, J. C. Tierney, right hon. G.
Honywood, W. P. Tremayne, J. H.
Hurst, R. Wells, J.
Hutchinson, hon. C. H. Western, C. C
James, W. Whitbread, S. C.
Jervoise, G. P. Wilkins, W.
Johnstone, W. A. Williams, O.
Kennedy, T. F. Wodehouse, E.
Lambton, J. G. Wrottesley, sir J.
Leader, W. TELLER.
Leycester, R. Hume, J.