HC Deb 17 May 1822 vol 7 cc674-98

On the order of the day for the second reading of this bill,

Mr. Powell Buxton

rose to remind the House, that last year the chancellor of the exchequer had stated, that a proposition, as to-East India sugars being imported into this country on the same terms that sugars from the West Indies were, might be referred to the committee on foreign trade. That, however, had not yet been done; and as this bill greatly interfered with the question of adopting such a proposition, he wished to ask the right hon. gentleman when it was intended to bring it forward? Certain facts had recently come to his knowledge which attached additional importance to this question. By a very able pamphlet lately written by an intelligent merchant of Liverpool, a Mr. Cropper, it appeared that the tax levied by the West India importers upon the public in profit on their sugars, over and above the profits which the public would have to pay on other sugars, was no less than 1,500,000l. per annum. Now, to that pamphlet an answer had been published, under the sanction of the West India merchants; and even there it was admitted, that. West India sugars were sold at 5s. per cwt. dearer than sugars from the East Indies could be sold at, supposing the rate, of duty to be the same. Now, 5s. per cwt. was equivalent to 5l. per ton; and it being admitted that 200,000 tons were annually imported into this country, here was a tax of 1,00,000l. a-year paid by the consumer on West India sugars, in consequence of the West India monopoly, and for the sole benefit of the West India merchants. The East India merchants, as he understood, had prepared a petition to that House, in which they represented, that if an ad valorem duty were imposed upon "all" sugars imported into this country, according to their quality, the price to the consumer would be greatly reduced, and the consumption itself very largely increased. They conceived that sugar, which now fetched 6d., would in that event realize not more than 3d. per lb., and that the effect of such a reduction of price would relieve the country, taking into consideration the entire annual importation and the average annual prices from a tax of not less that 16,000,000l. per annum. He did not pledge himself for the accuracy of this calculation; but taking the result to be only in fact 8,000,000l., nay, if it were only 4,000,000l., the question for the consideration of parliament became one of immense importance. The value of the East India trade had increased in a most extraordinary degree. The cotton sent hither in 1792 was not more than 100lb. In 1813, it had increased to 100,000lb.; and in 1820, to 1,000,000lb. No parliamentary return subsequently to 1820, had yet been obtained; but he had every reason to think that the importation, which in 1792 was to the amount of 100lb. only, would be found to be, in 1822, 2,000,000lb. There seemed to be, in short, no saying to what extent this trade might increase. He believed he was warranted in saying, that no return was so valuable as sugars. Sugars were in this country always a marketable commodity to the importer; and from their weight and stowage they were almost the best article to the freighters. He thought it would be found that a matter of grater importance could not be brought under its notice.

Mr. Robinson

said, he did not happen to be in the House when the discussion to which the hon. member alluded took place. The fact, however, was, that last year an act was passed, imposing a duty upon East India sugars, which act would expire this year. If it should be proposed to parliament to renew that act, the discussion to which the hon. gentleman seemed desirous that the House should now be led, would in due course come on. At the same time, it did not naturally follow the adoption of such a bill as the present, that the duties on East India sugars would be assimilated to those which were paid on sugars imported from the west Indies.

Mr. Bright

thought, that the East India question stood on very different and distinct grounds from any upon which the interest of our West India colonies could be imagined to rest. The East Indies by their natural situation could not be made more accessible to the rest of the commercial world than they now were. The nature of our communication with them was liable to very little alteration. But in regard to our intercourse, and the intercourse of other powers, with our West India colonies, we were very differently situated. He, therefore, implored ministers to put the minds of those who were interested in the West India trade at rest, by specifically declaring what were the intentions of government. A very large capital was embarked in this extensive branch of our commerce; and a very strong and painful interest was excited among its principal members, as to the ultimate views of ministers with respect to this subject.

Mr. W. Williams

said, that the hon. gentleman who had just sat down appeared to be against all monopolies but the monopoly enjoyed by the West India merchants. The great object of the bill was, to allow to our colonies free intercourse and communication with every part of the world; and he apprehended that if the trade in sugar was not thrown open, considerable mischief must ensue to the commerce of Great Britain. Under the pressed regulation, the consumption was rather declining than increasing. In the short period of three years the quantity of sugars on hand had diminished from 28,000 to 62,000 hogsheads. If sugars were allowed to be exported to every part of Europe, the consumption would be very materially increased.

Mr. C. R. Ellis

thought, that the East India merchants had no just claim to such a benefit as the hon. member for Weymouth had put in for them. They were, in effect, asking for the ruin of those who had virtually abolished the slave-trade. The representations of those for whom the hon. gentleman desired to interest the House were confined to a prayer for per mission to participate in the monopoly, as it was called, of the West India colonists and merchants. This was the whole claim. It would be necessary to inquire what were the rights of the West India traders; and what would be the expediency of granting the claim of the East India traders? The rights of the former were comprised in this—a compensation for certain restrictions imposed upon them by the mother country, for the general benefit of the state. Was the trade of the East India interest subject to the same restrictions as that of the West India merchants? Was the trade between India and England limited exclusively to British goods? Had parliament imposed, in favour of the West India merchant any protecting duties, such as those contained in the schedule annexed to the bill now before the House? He considered that our Indian possessions were, in respect of a foreign trade, precisely in the state of an independent empire. Our Indian empire, then, was not to be considered in the light of a mere colony. Its trade was not subject to the restrictions under which the West India trade laboured, and was not therefore entitled to participate in those benefits which had been given to the latter, in compensation for such restriction. As to the question of expediency, were he to go into the discussion of that, he must open no less a subject than the whole system, of our colonial policy. He would therefore conclude, by protesting against any attempt at connecting together the two distinct questions of the East India and West India trades.

Mr. T. Wilson

feared, that the bill would do but very little good to the West India trade; and if it did not effect a positive good to that interest, he thought it was likely to be productive of mischief somewhere else.

Mr. Money

contended, that the East India merchants had been treated with injustice and partiality by the legislature. It had refused to receive the cotton manufactures of India without a duty amounting t prohibition; while it had compelled the inhabitants of the East Indies to receive our manufactures without the payment of any duty.

Mr. W. Smith

said, he did not wonder that gentlemen were anxious to press this subject forward now, because the longer it was postponed the greater would be the opposition to it. This was no other than a question between Great Britain and the West India colonies; but he believed that the measure would be of little advantage to the latter. There had been a mutual monopoly between Great Britain and her West India possessions; and this measure was disadvantageous to the latter; for the gain, whatever it might be, would be made out of the pockets of the consumers. The hon. member censured the mode in which the legislature had long proceeded upon this subject, and adverted to the steps taken by the House in 1753. He was favourable to an equality of advantage between the colonies and the mother country; but he did not understand that kind of liberality which consisted in giving every thing, and receiving nothing; and in this case he certainly saw no reciprocity whatsoever. Was the country in a situation to depart from the system which had so long prevailed with respect to the colonies? That point ought to be considered before they adopted a new code of legislation on so important a subject. If the colonies were likely, in commons with the public, to derive benefit from this measure, he of course would not oppose it; but he believed that that which was denominated a boon would not be advantageous either to the one or the other. If the trade were thrown completely open—if the colonies were allowed to send their produce direct to every part of the globe—then the people of this country would say "We must seek our supply from every part of the globe; and thus the ordinary proceeding of commerce would be completely unhinged. It was urged, by those who were favourable to this measure, that East India sugars were now allowed to be exported to the Mediterranean; and therefore it was argued, that the monopoly had been given up. But, if the agreement between the mother country and the West India colonies were broken to that extent, it was a gratuitous concession on the part of government; and those who called for an extension of the trade had no right to turn about and say, that because a certain point had been given up, the West India colonies were bound to part with all their privileges. Another question was, at what time was this bargain made with the colonies? Because, he believed it would be found, on reference to the period, that the population had increased so much since as to create a greatly extended demand for sugars; and if that commodity were sold at a moderate price, there could be no doubt but that much of the stock which the petitioners had on had would find consumers. How far the general prosperity of the state would be improved by this measure, he did not now consider. He viewed the question, with reference to a particular interest, and he would say, that this monopoly ought either to be kept entire, or to be destroyed altogether.

Mr. Barham

, that his hon. friend in speaking of the monopoly, had said that they ought to possess it entire. Not only did he subscribe to that doctrine, but every man in the colonies assented to it. They considered it as their charter. It was on the faith of that agreement that those who preceded them had formed their great colonial establishments. If it was violated, it would be an act of gross injustice, and the colonial interest would be absolutely annihilated. But, it seemed, there had been an invasion of that monopoly; and that was used as an arguments for destroying it altogether. Now, if there had been an invasion of that monopoly, it was not effected for the sake of the West India interest; and if, for the purpose of serving some other interest, the West India proprietors gave up a certain right, it was not fair to turn round on them any say, "Your contract is broken, and the monopoly shall be destroyed." This would be a most violent and a most unjustifiable doctrine. Perhaps this measure might do good. He did not say that it would or would not. But why should a measure be introduced which would deprive the West India proprietor of a prietor of a privilege which had long been his, on account of some incidental, some contingent benefit? Why should he, for such a speculation, be reduced to a mere nonentity? With respect to the right of trade which had been granted to Demerara and Berbice, it had been asked, why, at the time, some representation was not made on the subject? He had only to answer, that representations were made. At that time there was an abundant supply of colonial produce, and the act of the minister, on that occasion had tended to create the present distress. The West India merchants remonstrated in every way they could; and he was one of a deputation that waited on the minister, and argued the question with him. He (Mr. B.) then foretold what distress would ensue; and unfortunately his view of the consequences was but too correct. The West India proprietors were suffering heavy losses. Their great object was, to find subsistence for the poor creatures on their estates. As to profit, it was quite out of the question. Unless some revulsion took place which should restore the trade, and encourage the use of colonial produce, the West India proprietor could not prosper. And yet in this deplorable state of affairs, they were about to admit the produce of the East Indies into a marked which was already glutted. If this system were persisted in, they might as well give up their West India colonies. He was really astonished at the quarter whence this cry of a free trade proceeded. If his hon. friend (Mr. Ricardo) had advanced the doctrine, it would not have surprised him. But, strange to say, the call for a free trade proceeded from a quarter in which, heretofore, there was no freedom at all. It came from the East Indies, and empire with which, until very lately, no private British merchant was allowed to trade—a soil on which, till within the last few years, no British subject had a right to set his foot. The demand came from a portion of the empire which could not, permanently, be connected with the mother country; for no man could suppose, that a force of 25,000 men would be able, for a long series of years, to govern eighty or a hundred millions of native inhabitants. When those possessions should be dissevered form this country, what would be our situation? Having ruined the West Indies, and being unable to procure sugar from that quarter, they would be obliged to apply to a foreign government in the East Indies, which probably would not take any portion of their manufactures, and they would consequently be compelled to pay for every thing they purchase in gold. It was observed, that this measure would have the effect of checking the slave trade. If it could be proved to him that the slave trade was likely, under the existing system, to be renewed in the West India colonies, there was no bill having for its object the annihilation of that trade which he would not support. But he would not legislate for an evil which he did not believe to exist. Let the subject be examined before a committee—let it be shown that there was any chance of the revival of the slave trade—and he would be the first to adopt measures of prevention; but he would not proceed to legislate on the mere fancies and imaginations of men, whose minds had been so long fixed on this subject, that they were likely to be deranged by l the slightest occurrence.

Mr. Ellice

offered his cordial support to this bill as one of those measures of approximation to free trade, which was the safest, and best, protecting, to a rational extent, existing interests which had grown up under an opposite system, and at the same time offering to the rest of the world a sincere proof of our disposition to carry into effect those liberal principles which we had so loudly professed. He had listened with attention to the speech of his hon. friend the member for Norwich (Mr. Smith) and had heard no argument urged against this measure, which did not equally apply to our whole colonial system. Certainly if we were I now called upon to legislate on this important subject for the first time—with the experience and information the last century had given us, he might agree in the impolicy of peopling the West India Islands with slaves, to produce articles, which we could more easily and profitably obtain from other countries in exchange for our manufactures—but the case before the House was, how the restrictions on trade could be gradually and ultimately removed, without entailing absolute ruin on those, who had embarked their property on the faith of existing regulations and the protection of parliament. This bill was, in his opinion, calculated to effect that object, and he therefore supported it. Much matter had been introduced foreign to the subject under discussion, and the attention of the House had been diverted from it, by a kind of by-battle between the East and West Indians, respecting the duties on sugar, which were to be regulated hereafter by another bill. He could not avoid, as this course had been followed, offering a few remarks in answer to some very strange observations of one or two of his hon. friends on this subject. The West India planter was, in his opinion, fairly entitled to a moderate protection for some time to come, in the same manner as he conceived the agriculturist entitled also to a moderate, not to the monstrous, protection, afforded him by the corn bill. One hon. gentleman (Mr. Money) had brought before the House the whole case of the, cultivators of India. He complained, and with great reason, that by the policy of this country our manufactures had been imposed upon the people of India, without the least protection to the Indian manufacturer, who had been nearly ruined, and an immense population deprived of profitable employment, from our ability to supply their own manufactures from the improvement in our machinery and superiority of capital, at a cheaper rate: and now, exclaims the hon. member, having diverted the industry of the people from its former employment, you subject their raw productions, which you have compelled them to cultivate, to excessive duties, to protect the West India planter. He entirely concurred with the hon. gentleman that nothing could be more cruel, and nothing could more justly subject us to the imputation of being a nation of shopkeepers looking solely to profit in our dealings with mankind, than this unjust policy. But again, he would ask, whether the West India proprietors were accountable for those measures, or whether they were adopted with a view to the promotion of their interest? Another hon. friend (Mr. Buxton) the advocate of the consumers, had stated, that if the additional protecting duty of 5s. was discontinued, he had no doubt the price of sugar would be current at 3d. per lb. He could not imagine by what process of reasoning, his hon. friend arrived at this conclusion. At all events the additional duty could only increase the price one halfpenny, but the most satisfactory answer to his hon. friend, was, to refer him to the chancellor of the exchequer who raised more than 3d. per lb. duty on West India sugar. Then it was argued by one hon. gentleman, according to some equally strange calculation, that by this difference of duty, a tax was laid of 18 millions on the people of England to support the West India colonies: his hon. friend (Mr. Smith) had reduced this amount to 2 millions, and to this he would answer, the West India interest would answer, the West India interest would be too happy to make a compromise at a much lower rate, and at once give up all their just claim to a moderate protection. The truth however was, those statements were equally erroneous, and although after a certain time he would advocate the gradual equalization of the duty, at present there did appear a fair claim, arising from the utmost distress, for consideration on the one side, and no very violent cause of complaint on the other. All markets of the world were open to both classes of producers on the same terms. Another objection to this measure came rather with a bad grace from a portion of the community to whom, from some of those antiquated principles of our commercial policy, which all parties sought now to reform, the West India interest had been long sacrificed—he alluded to the sugar refiners, who were afraid the permission given by the bill, of direct exportation of sugar from the Islands to the continental ports, would Injure their manufacture. Their petition had been brought forward and supported by an hon. friend who with singular consistency supported their claims to protection, and still refused, when the Indian interest was concerned, all protection to the colonists. The House should remember, that, to favor this particular trade, the Colonists were prohibited by law from refining their sugar in the Islands. They were obliged to pay also the additional freight, expense of transport, and package, the various charges attending a raw material, merely that the profit of manufacture should be secured to the English refiner. Why, when gentlemen talked of the unreasonable claims of the colonist, that of his objection to the principle and practice of free trade, did they not propose to relieve him from this injurious and manifest violation of them? The fact was, as he had stated in the commencement of his observation, our commercial code had rather been formed on a continual departure from, than on any observance of these principles, and the utmost care was necessary in these alterations, to protect, to a moderate extent, the extensive vested interests, which might otherwise be most unjustly sacrificed to our love for improvement. He was as zealous in the cause as any of his hon. friends, but he would proceed with the greatest caution and circumspection.

To return, however, to the bill under discussion, as he thought, much matter had been unnecessarily connected with it, there were other branches of the Subject more material, which had been totally lost sight of, and particularly the enormous charges and taxation under which our colonies and shipping were oppressed, and from which they might easily be relieved without injury, to any party. An hon. baronet (sir W. Curtis) had, opposed this and the former bill, as threatening severely to injure our navigation. If he thought they could produce that effect, he would be an equally strenuous opponent of them with his hon. friend. He considered our commercial marine ought to be regarded and protected, beyond any abstract views of profit and loss, which might regulate our policy in other branches of our trade. The safety of the country depended on its prosperity, and every measure should be taken to foster and improve it. He felt satisfied his hon. friend need be under no apprehension of its suffering from the provisions of these bills, but he entreated the co-operation of his hon. friend to improve its condition, by compelling government to take off the tonnage duty, which had been laid during was to pay part of the expense of convoy, and w3hich the chancellor of the exchequer had strangely forgotten to remit, when the cause of its imposition had ceased. It was scarcely possible, beyond direct taxes, to credit the enormous burthens to which our shipping was subjected in all quarters of the would, and especially in our own colonies, to satisfy the rapacity of various agents and extortioners of government. Take one colony for instance, Trinidad; he held an account in his had of the charges imposed there on a ship of 300 tons. The collector's fee 55 dollars, comptroller 38, searcher 40, treasury 15, island secretary 30, governor's secretary 27, extra officer 19, and various other sums amounting to 132l. This was a specimen of the charges in all the colonies. Then, as if the poor ship-owner was the fair subject of plunder every where in countries not under own government, we had gentlemen exercising the functions of consuls, who performed the office of leeches as successfully as their brethren in official situations in the colonies. The House had heard of the monstrous sums raised in this way in the Brazils—one officer receiving about 11,000l. a year. All over Europe, although not quite so bad, it was still oppressive. In Sicily an English vessel could not touch at two ports without paying two consuls, and yet it would be difficult to conceive the necessity for two officers of this description in that island. In America it was equally bad; he had accidentally met the master of an English vessel just arrived from Charleston, who shewed him the account of his expenses in that port, consisting of light and harbour dues, pilotage, Custom-house and government charges, amounting in all to 23 dollars; and the House would scarcely credit it, the British consul's fee for endorsing his register was nearly equal to all the other expenses, amounting to the scandalous exaction of 20 dollars. The expenses in our own ports were now under investigation in the committee up stairs, and as far as the inquiry had proceeded, it was impossible to imagine any thing more iniquitous. The impositions of the Trinity-house were indefensible, and their extortions had already led to the loss of many foreign vessels, with their cargoes and crews, who rather preferred the dangers of the seas in the most violent storms, to the protection of our ports at the price we exacted for it. He had, indeed, been astonished at seeing the merciful return for all this in the American charges on the vessel he had alluded to, and that a remedy had not been obtained by the remonstrance of foreign governments, for evils which our administration, looking to the interests of our own navigation, did not appear to consider as requiring their attention. This was a fine field for the exertion of the influence of the hon. baronet with his friends, and he might be assured he would be conferring a much less doubtful, obligation on his constituents in using it, than in opposing the present bill. Then, although he admitted, this measure as far as it went would benefit the colonies, if their situation was examined into, it would be found their distress, severe and almost insupportable as it was, was aggravated by the same causes which oppressed our industry and trade in every quarter, the enormous amount of taxation of all descriptions. In what were known by the name of the conquered and ceded colonies, taxes were levied, and expended by authority, until the late war, unknown in the dependencies of Great Britain, at the absolute will of the governor, exercised according to his caprice, and without consulting the feelings or interests of the inhabitants. Laws of every country and every code, administered in every language, neither understood by those who executed, or whose interests were affected by them, construed differently by every succeeding English lawyer, who was sent out to preside in the island courts, destroyed the credit of the colonies, and in this their hour of need, with the superabundance of capital in this country, there was no confidence to lend or invest it, on the security of property subject to risks, which could neither be understood, or guarded against. English creditors under such circumstances, and in the overwhelming difficulties that other wise surrounded the planters, instead of feeling any disposition to extend, their advances, were pressing to withdraw what they could save. The property in the contention got into what were called courts of justice, and was ultimately the prey of lawyers and officers, to the utter ruin of the contending parties. Such for instance was the actual condition of Trinidad—labouring under all the difficulties which oppressed the old colonies, the planters discontented with the laws and the administration of them, and the merchants having candidly told government, that while such a state of things continued confidence was entirely suspended in all transactions with the island. This case, however, was not singular. To give the House some ideal of the extent to which this system was carried, he would state the situation of another wretched colony, St. Lucia. He would not go into a detail of all the complaints and sufferings of the inhabitants, but as he did think animadversion in that place sometimes strengthened the hands of government, and aided the best intention, in resisting the perpetual claims of the adherents of administration for offices and jobs at the expense of our suffering fellow country men in the colonies, he could not resist shortly adverting to the present and past state of that island. It was well known to the House, that it had been twice conquered during the last war, and at last retained as a permanent possession at the peace, not so much from any object of commercial advantage, as from its importance as the key of the naval station in the windward islands, and particularly as commanding Martinique. While under the French government, to encourage the settlement, which laboured under all the disadvantages of a pestilent climate, and being more frequently subject than any other island to the effects of hurricanes, the inhabitants had been carefully exempted from all taxation, 800l. only being raised for the salary of ht governor. From the moment these poor people were admitted to the blessings of British protection, the rule had been reversed, and they had been subject to every king of exaction which the ingenuity of their governors could devise. It was true, that when their complaints reached the ears of government, and time had elapsed for an enquiry into them, one governor who it was reported had raised 30,000l. for himself and his secretary by his extortions, was dismissed and cashiered. Another succeeded, who also demanded what were called his legitimate perquisites, not to a much smaller amount. The hurricane of 1817 which destroyed all their crops, damaged their buildings, and killed some of their slaves, then came in addition to their previous distress. The government buildings were destroyed. New and grievous taxes were laid by the simple fiat of the governor on the inhabitants who had been already too severely punished by this sad calamity, to repair and rebuild them. The erections made, were unfit for the climate, and, as they alleged, in a most exposed situation. The hurricane of 1819 succeeded and disposed of them. This visitation was in all its circumstances still more calamitous than the previous one, and yet in 1820 and 1821 more oppressive taxes were again laid to rebuild the public works. The house, then, would not fail to observe how all these burthens were proportioned to what one would have imagined could only have justified them—the progressive prosperity of the people. The whole population amounted to about 15,000, of which the slaves exceeded 12,000. The average crop was about 6 or 7,000 hhds. of sugar, which supposing other articles paid the expenses of cultivation might generally in the years preceding 1817 have produced a clear revenue to the planters of from 100,000 to 140,000l. Since that year they had lost two entire crops, or at least the expenses incurred in repairs exceeded the value of what had been saved from destruction by the hurricanes—the price had gradually fallen to the present depressed value—and he conscientiously believed the income of the whole island had fallen to less than one fourth of its previous amount—if indeed, and it was a doubtful question, there was now any income beyond their expense. The taxes on the other hand had been more than quadrupled. Last year nearly 12,000l. had been exacted, 3,000l. to pay the salary of the governor, an officer of the highest character and most distinguished service, but whose claims on the country we had no right to palm off on these wretched people. He believed they were entirely sick of each other, and he entreated government, when some other employment should be found for the gallant general, not to replace him by so expensive a successor. The truth was, we overloaded the colonies with establishments which were in no respect necessary, and then were apt to complain of the cost of maintaining them. The major of a veteran battalion, with an addition of 5 or 6001. per annum to his pay, was a person of sufficient importance to fill the office of governor of St. Lucia, under the superintendance of the commander in chief at Barbadoes; and there was no occasion for a host of staff and secretaries, who unfortunately always followed in the suite of the greater personage. He could draw a similar picture of many other colonies, but he was afraid he had already fatigued the House, and would therefore only add a few observations on their general situation. The shipments from all the sugar colonies had usually averaged from 250 to 280,000 hhds., which till 1818 had probably produced a nett revenue after payment of all charges exceeding 7 millions. This now had been reduced by the fall of price to less than 3. The value of sugar was lower than in 1791. The chancellor of the exchequer then took 12s. 4d. from 61s. He now takes 27s. from about 58s. The settlers and planters, in the new colonies especially, were invariably debtors, and they came in for their share of the gross injustice which had been inflicted on all persons similarly situated, by the alteration of the currency. Their case at all events was exempted from the general rule which Mr. Mushett and some of his hon. friends adduced in support of the justice of the last fraud in this respect. We possessed none of these colonies, or the inhabitants any property in them in 1797, and the loans borrowed of their consignees were all in paper at its greatest depreciation. Luckily in this case there could be no difference of opinion, facts spoke for themselves, and did not require the aid of argument. In 1814 and 1815, in Trinidad, where the same metallic money has always been current at the same value, a bill for 100l. sterling could be purchassed for 150 or 155l. currency. The value of the pound sterling has since gradually risen, and now from 240 to 250l. of the same metallic money is required from the defrauded debtor for payment of the altered 100l. sterling. His debts, taxes and expenses of all descriptions are increased in the same ratio, and his returns proportionally reduced in price, and yet this was called justice! He had taken the case of Trinidad, having a letter in his hand stating the actual difference, but it was nearly, if not quite as great in Jamaica, and all our other colonies. There was no argument so forcible in reply to the noble lord's sweeping assertion of the general prosperity of all the interests in the country, except the agricultural, as placing before him figures of this description. Let them apply the same test, to the other interest materially affected, or supposed to be so, by this bill. They had a precise account of the quantity of commercial tonnage, and taking the value of it, which no person acquainted with the subject would say was overstated, at 20l. a ton in 1814 they would find the capital employed in it 51 millions. At a profit of 15 per cent, the fair average at that period, this yielded a return of between 7 and 8 millions towards the general income of the country. The quantity of tonnage still remained nearly the same, and was now reduced in value to 25 millions. No person acquainted with this business, could state the present profit above 5 per cent, he was almost afraid, there was as much loss as profit generally, but assuming it was otherwise, there was at least a falling off of between 5 and 6 millions in this branch of the public income. He believed such was the case with all the productive interests of the country, at least that was the general rule, and former prosperity the exception. Certainly all this was not to be ascribed to one cause, and more particularly in this branch of our industry. What he contended for was, that, while we had to meet a great diminution of profit from our productive capital, from the cessation of the monopoly, and the excitement which the events of the war had accidentally given to our trade, it was scarcely possible to believe, that any administration, or any legislature could at the same moment, have subjected persons employing capital, who were generally debtors, and their transactions, to the derangement, and injustice produced by the final alteration of the currency. This was a subject, however, he could not pursue. He approved of the present bill as an improvement and more as a pledge of further improvement in our commercial system. At the Same time he intreated the House while they were reforming the regulations which were called protections to our trade and navigation, to be careful that they placed both on a fair footing, if they could not give the many advantage in the open competition which these measures subjected them. If all burthens and taxes such as he had pointed out in the course of his observations were removed, he did not fear the result, but if we could not tell our merchants we were ready to meet every wish they could express, to adopt every improvement, and to remove all obstacles in the way of a fair competition with their commercial rivals, he should dread the experiments now making, beneficial as he admitted them to be, if accompanied by such protection. He however trusted much to the candid conduct and the avowed principles of the president and vice president of the board of trade, which he had an opportunity of witnessing in the committee above stairs, from which this bill emanated, and he thought himself bound both from a sense of public duty and a perfect confidence in their good intentions, to support to the utmost of his power, their anxious endeavours to improve the general condition of the trade of the country.

Mr. Ricardo

rose, in the first instance, to make one observation on the subject of the currency. Though the facts were not known to him, he could not help suspecting the correctness of his hon. friend, respecting the payments in the west Indies. That persons in the West Indies who, in 1815 paid a debt of 100l. with 155l.of their currency, should now have to pay 227l., while that Currency was not itself altered in value, seemed to him incredible. He would go no however, to another subject. If he had wanted an argument id favour of a free trade, he should not have gone farther than the speech of his hon. friend. He had painted the system exactly as it was. He had told them that the ship-owners were burthened with peculiar charges; that to compensate themselves for these charges, the ship-owners were allowed to saddle unnecessary expenses on the West Indians; that the West Indians were not allowed to refine their sugar, but were obliged to send it over with a quantity of mud, in order to employ and encourage our shipping; that they, in their turn, had a monopoly given them of the supply of the home market; Where the consumer got his sugar burthened by the cost of all those charges. The system throughout was of the same nature. Vexatious and unnecessary burthens were cast upon one class, and that class was allowed to relieve itself by preying upon some other. An hon. member had put a very proper question: when he was told that the people of England were taxed for the sake of the West Indians, the hon. member had asked, who got this million and a half, when the West Indians could barely keep their estates in cultivation? No one got it. That was what he (Mr. R.) complained of. The people of England paid geievously for their sugar, without a corresponding benefit to any persons. The sum which they paid was swallowed up in the fruitless waste of human labour. The hon. member of London had said, that they should pay the same price for their sugar, whether they taxed it or not Now it was not possible this could be the case. The hon. member might as well have said, that if they did not lay a tax on tea the Chinese would raise the price of it equal to the present price burthened with the tax. The general principle that regulated price where free competition operated was, that a commodity would be sold as cheap as the producers could afford. Unless, therefore, our admission of the East India sugars could add to the cost of producing them, there could be no increase of price. The case of the West Indies was precisely similar to that of the corn laws. As in the latter case we were protecting our poor soil from the competition of the rich soil of other countries, so were we to protect the poor soil of the West Indies from the competition of the rich soil of the East Indies. The mischief in such cases was, that there was much human labour thrown away without any equivalent. He fully agree, that there would be the greatest possible injustice in sacrificing the vested interests of the West Indies; but it would be cheaper to purchase our sugar from the East Indies, and to pay a tax directly to the West Indies for the liberty of doing so. We should be gainers by the bargain; because there would be no waste of human labour. As he thought a monopoly was a disadvantage on either side, he saw no reason for opposing the present bill, which approached, to a certain degree, to free trade. We could not too soon return to the sound principle; and if we once arrived at it the House would no longer be tormented with these discussions, and with constant solicitations to sacrifce the public good to particular interests.

Mr. Marryat

denied the correctness of the statement, that a tax was imposes on the people of England, by the prefer- ence given to the West India planter, in the supply of the supply of the home market with sugar. He contended, that as the quantity of sugar imported from the British West India colonies exceeded the consumption of the mother country by nearly one-third, and as that surplus must necessarily be sold for exportation, Europe, and not Great Britain alone, was to be considered as the market of the West India planter; and that the price his surplus sugars were worth to be sent abroad, necessarily governed the price of those that ware sold to be consumed at home. Great Britain, therefore, was supplied with sugar at as cheap a rate as any nation in Europe; and the only means of lowering the price to the consumer, was by lowering the duty.—It had been said, that the foreign planter could raise sugar cheaper than the British planter, and this was too true; but he (Mr. M.) maintained, that the price of a commodity had no reference to the cost of its production, but was governed by the proportion that the supply bore to the demand: and therefore it did not follow that because foreign planters could cultivate cheaper than British planters, they would sell cheaper. In fact, they all sold at the same price: and the only consequence of the disadvantageous competition to which the British planter was exposed was, his being reduced to very great distress.—For the truth of this doctrine he would appeal to the agricultural gentlemen; and ask them whether the present price of corn was regulated by the cost of its production, or by the proportion which the supply bore to the demand?—The real state of the case was, that from the moment the produce of the British West India colonies exceeded the consumption of the mother country, which was the consequence of the numerous additional colonies that were ceded at the late peace, their monopoly of the home market became nearly nominal, and the mother country was necessarily supplied at the same price as the continent of Europe; while her monopoly of the supply of the colonies with British manufactures, and in British ships, remained in full force Under these circumstances, occasioned by events over which they had no control, and arising out of the determination of his majesty's ministers, on views of policy, comprehending the general interests of the British empire, they might reasonably claim some relaxation of a system which had reduced them to the greatest distress; and which, if continued, must involve them in utter ruin.

The planters were aware of the objection to increasing the price of their produce, which would be taxing the British consumer for their benefit; and, therefore, had only petitioned for the renewal of their former intercourse with the United States of America, which, though it would not increase their revenue, would at least diminish their expenditure, by enabling them to procure their supplies of provisions and lumber at a cheaper rate, without imposing any additional burthens on their fellow-subjects; and that bill had just been read a second time without meeting with any opposition.

The present bill did not originate with the West India planters or merchants; but was a spontaneous measure on the part of his majesty's ministers, with a view to the relief and encouragement of British shipping. It gave British ship-owners the 'same advantage with respect to the produce of the West Indies, as had been given them last year as to the produce of the East; the permission to carry it, not to Great Britain only, but to every part of Europe. It was evident that no use would be made of this permission by the West India planter, as to sugars; because of near 300,000 hogsheads that had been imported into Great Britain last year, only 400 had been exported to the continent of Europe; and surely no persons would venture to send an entire cargo to Any one port, when all the ports had taken off only so small a quantity. In facther proof of this assertion, he might state that although, by another bill passed many years ago, the planters were permitted to ship their sugars to any port of Europe south of Cape Finisterre, not a single cargo had ever been sent to that destination, from the time the act passed, down to the present moment. If the present bill were to be considered as a plea for admitting East India sugar into British home consumption, on more favourable terms of competition with West India sugar than at present, he should abjure the acceptance of it on such a condition: nor, in fact, was there any ground for the pretension; as the bill by no means placed the West India planters on the same footing as the grower of sugar in the East Indies. The West India planter still remained subject to all those restrictions which pressed so heavily upon his interests. He was prohibited from manufacturing for himself; even from refining his own sugar, without payment of a duty of eight guineas per cwt., a sum far exceeding its value; and intended to operate, as in fact it did operate, as a total prohibition. He was obliged to consume the manufactures of the mother country alone; to ship all his produce in her ships; and thus his industry was rendered subservient to that system, by which Great Britain makes all her colonies marts for the consumption of her manufactures, and the foundations of her naval power. The East Indians were exempted from all these obligations. So far from consuming British manufactures only, they manufactured for themselves; and even sent their manufactures to every part of the world, to rival those of the mother country. Ships under every flag upon the face of the globe had free access to their ports, to bring them commodities of every description, and take away theirs in return. They could buy every thing where they could buy it cheapest, and sell every thing where they could sell it dearest; in short, they had the whole world for their market. Let them forego these advantages, let them put themselves on the same footing as the West India planters, and he for one Would agree to their sugars being admitted at the same duties; but those who would not submit to colonial restrictions, had no right to claim colonial privileges.

The hon. member then proceeded to explain the prospective advantages to which he looked forward from the present bill. More than half the rum shipped to London was exported (principally to the north of Europe), and, of course, subject to a double set of charges of every description, amounting to at least one-third of the nett proceeds of the rum; all which would be saved to the West India planter, by shipping it direct to the port of its consumption. He was satisfied, too, that lumber would soon be prepared in the North of Europe, of such dimensions as was suited to the West India market, and be taken back as a return cargo; to the great benefit of the British ship owner, who would thus earn a double freight, as well as of the British planter who would procure his supplies both better and cheaper than if he depended on America alone. Another advantage to which he looked forward in this bill, was that if Russia persisted in her present system of excluding all sugars that were either clayed or refined in Europe, many of the British planters would revert to the practice of claying their sugars; and, by shipping them direct to the ports of Russia, would save the double set of charges that must attach upon them if sent circuitously by way of this country: and he was persuaded that any plan which would enable the British planters to enter into a more successful competition with the planters of Cuba and the Brazils, by whom the slave trade was still carried on, and so far tend to check and discourage that traffic, would meet with the warmest approbation and support of this House.

He should now say a few words on another subject which had been adverted to in the age course of the discussion; the case of the British sugar refiners. He felt, in the strongest manner, the importance of that valuable manufactory; and was satisfied that the interests of the sugar refiners and those of the West India planter were bound up together: The petition they had presented, praying for leave to refine East India, and other foreign sugar appeared to him to be both premature and injudicious; premature, because as he had before observed, no Muscovado sugar was likely to be sent to foreign ports of the continent, under the operation of this bill, instead of coming to Great Britain as usual; and injudicious, because the words other sugars, could only apply to the sugars of the Brazils and Cuba (the sugars of all other colonies being shipped to the countries to which they respectively belonged), and therefore to grant this Permission would be to open a new source for consumption,, to the sugars of those slave-trading colonies, and consequently to give an additional stimulus to that traffic; a measure which would be reprobated by the, unanimous feelings of the House. The object for which the sugar refiners ought to have petitioned is, the repeal of the transit duties on foreign linens; for the continuance of this duty is the real origin of all the retaliatory measures of Russia against our trade and manufactures, and consequently of the present distress of our sugar refiners, who have lost the export of 40,000 hogsheads of refined sugar, which till of late ware annually shipped from this country to Russia. This transit duty, which was properly imposed in time of war, was continued in time of peace, in direct contradiction to all those commercial princi- ples on which we profess to act, and by adhering to which we hope to make this country the emporium of the world. It has led to severe retaliation on the part of Russia. Every new Tariff from that country contains additional duties, and fresh prohibitions of British manufactures. Russia justifies the expediency of opening a direct intercourse with the Brazils, Cuba, and: other foreign countries, as furnishing her with that market for her linens, which we refuse to give her by permitting them to pass through our ports, as formerly, free of duty. She has also retaliated upon us in kind, by prohibiting the transit British woollens through her dominions, to the great fairs of Tartary, which supply both Persia and China, and giving the monopoly of that trade to the woollens of Prussia. The hon. member said, he was aware that an idea was entertained by some gentlemen of the sister island, that foreign linens could not find access to the markets of Asia, Africa, and America, unless we gave them transit through our ports; and therefore that this duty, which had the effect of a prohibition, increased the export of Irish linens. Not less than 570 sail of vessels from Asia, Africa and America, had arrived in different ports of the continent of Europe during the last year; an incontrovertible proof that opportunities abounded of shipping foreign linens to every part of the world, without their passing through the ports of this kingdom. The prejudice of a few individuals on this point, was altogether erroneous; and ought to give way to the general commercial interests of the empire at large. Let this duty be repealed; the good understanding that formerly subsisted between this country and Russia will be restored, and the British sugar refiners as well as other classes of manufacturers be relieved.

As to the distress of the West India planters, he could truly state it to be extreme. He knew it to be the intention of many to make no more Rum, as it did not pay the expense of distillation. The Leeward Island rum of last crop, had sold at ls. 4d. per gallon; the freight and charges amounted to 9d., the cost of the puncheon was more than 3d., so that barely 4d. remained to provide stills, worms, and other utensils, and coals to be sent out from England. Not less than 200,000 chaldron of coals were now annually sent to the West Indies; the loss of the usual demand for them would be severely felt by our labourers, and of the freight of them by our ship-owners. He had seen a letter from one planter, expressing his determination, if things continued in their present state, to make neither sugar nor rum: but to divide his land among his negroes, and let them try if they could maintain themselves, as he found it impossible to maintain them by the cultivation of produce. This must be the result of continuing that extremity of distress to which the British planters were at present reduced; and he begged the House to consider, that if they were obliged to discontinue the cultivation of sugar not only would all the great manufacturing, commercial, and maritime interests which depended upon them, he immersed in their ruin, but the deficiency in their crops would be supplied by the planters of Cuba and the Brazils; and thus the Slave trade, instead of being abolished, would be carried on to a greater extent than ever. This it ought to be the object of parliament to prevent; and, therefore, he hoped, efficient measures for relieving the British West India planters would be adopted.

Mr. Wilboforce

thought it might be desirable to connect with this bill a provision for registering slaves like that which he had brought under the consideration of the House five or six years ago, but which had not been adopted. In granting the boon now intended to be given by this bill, some security ought to be obtained against the importation of slaves.

Mr. Bernal

contended, that this bill was not a boon to the West India colonies, but to the great body of distressed shipowners. He thought the present measure ought not to be clogged with any enactment with regard to the registration of slaves.

Mr. Manning

described the distress in the West Indies to surpass all description, and to exceed that experienced by the agricultural classes here; and therefore he considered it was of the utmost importance to afford relief.

Mr. Brougham

said, it could not be denied that great distress existed amongst the West India body of merchants—a distress which was as great, if not greater than that which prevailed amongst our agriculturists at home. Therefore, it was, that he should be glad of this measure for their relief, though it was not called for by themselves; and he hoped that a much larger measure of relief might erelong be, afforded. He for one would not clog it with any conditions; but he would appeal to them in return, and express a confident hope, that in their own internal regulations they would listen to the voice of that House, and redeem the pledges they had given, of carrying the measure of abolition and of slave regulation into the fullest effect. As to the encouragement of those colonies, he would say, that if East India sugar were to be imported into this market without restriction, we should have very speedily, the whole of the West Indian Archipelago laid waste. He did not mean to say that the soil would be less fertile, or that the islands would not be peopled with a black peasantry, by whom they might be kept in some sort of cultivation; but he did say, that an entire change of property would ensue—that coffee and sugar estates would no longer be productive to their owners who remained here—and that if they wished not to give them up altogether, they must go to the islands and live upon them as planters. Now this was a state of things for which we were not prepared at present. He did not say that such a state of things might not arrive at some time—that the black population whom our own wretched policy had sent thither might not be the future possessors of the soil. Such a case was highly probable, but we ought not to hasten it by any rash measures of legislation. He had thrown out these remarks as showing the ground of the vote that he should give, and he again begged to express a hope that the colonists would take the advice which they had received, and so improve the condition of their slaves as to fit them for making a gradual and complete emancipation—an event which must sooner or later arrive.

The bill was read a second time.