ORDNANCE ESTIMATES. (Hansard, 27 March 1822)

§ Mr. Hume
said, that the accounts of repairs and current expenses in some of the colonies, were so complicated, that it was almost impossible to know how the various sums were applied; and therefore, instead of going into minute details, his objection should be to the large account. He had moved for certain returns, which would elucidate some parts; but they had not been produced. The only account he had was from Demerara, and he would take that as a specimen of the current accounts in the other colonies. In the estimates for that colony was a sum of 1,879l. for extra pay of engineers. But the House had already voted 22,000l. for the extra pay of engineers; and why, after voting such a sum, should we be called upon to vote this particular sum for extra pay to the engineers of Demerara? He found also sums for repairs, &c., according to estimates made by colonel Mann; but he did not see why colonel Mann, who was not on the spot, should make such estimates, Under the head of Demerara and Berbice, those repairs amounted to 11,789l. Of this sum 10,000l. were towards raising 1363 the sea-bank, or dam, at Demerara. Now, if this work was necessary, it ought to be raised at the expense of the colony. The colony had its legislative body, who voted the necessary taxes from year to year; and if this money was thought necessary by them, why had they not raised it, instead of leaving it to this country? Sums were annually remitted to London to trustees, to be invested for the benefit of the colony; and there was at this moment not less than from 60,000l. to 70,000l. in the funds for that purpose. He was aware that the money so remitted to, this country was a security for the paper money in circulation there; but he did not see why the 10,000l. might not be advanced out of it towards the expense of the dam, if it was so necessary. Another reason why we ought not to defray this charge was, that it might be saved by an economical expenditure of the resources of the colony itself. He was aware that the colony was severely pressed down by taxes—that large sums were lost by the exorbitant salaries given to officers connected with it, some of whom had never visited the colony. It was owing to such a severe pressure on its industry and resources, that Demerara, as well as all our other colonies, was at this moment suffering under the greatest distress—distress so great, that, with the exception of the article of coffee, the planters did not receive for their produce the prime cost. The same, as the as concerned the large sums paid to its public officers, might be said of Berbice, and several other colonies in our possession. Berbice, it was known, was a colony ceded to us as a boon by the Dutch, in consideration of our having, most improvidently, given them up Java, the best colony out of Europe. Here he should remark upon the difference of pay given in some colonies. The governor of Surinam, a place of more importance than Demerara, had only a salary of 1,200l. while the governor of the latter place had an income of from 5,000l. to 7,000l. a-year. There was then a vendue-master, by whom all public sales were made, who had an income of from 6,000l. to 7,000l. a-year. There was also a colonial secretary and his deputy, and a secretary to the governor, with immense salaries. The office of colonial secretary had been given some years ago to a Mr. Sullivan, then a young lad at Eton school; and yet from 8,000l. to 4,000l. a-year was remitted to 1364 this country as his salary. Be of course had a deputy, and between the two not less than 8,000l. a-year was derived from the colony for several years, in addition to which there was the governor's secretary, with an income of not less than 2,500l. He objected to such large salaries being paid from so small a colony. It was a most unjust principle, that we should be obliged to pay for what, by proper management, the colony itself could pay. He should therefore move that the sum for this colony should be reduced by the 10,000l. for the sea-bank. We were also called upon to pay a sum of 3,063l. in the Ordnance department of the Ionian islands. This he should object to; for, by the contract by which his majesty became protector of the Ionian islands, this country was not to be called upon to pay any thing on account of its military defence, unless our force there exceeded 3,000 men. On looking at the estimates, he saw sums for repairs at the powder-works at Feversharn and Waltham-abbey. There was a sum of 1,951l. for repairs at the former place, though for the last four years it had been let out, and not an ounce of powder had been manufactured there on account of government. He ought to notice, that the civil establishment there had been reduced since last year. He was glad of it; but that reduction was not sufficient. It was not necessary that we should have any repairs to pay for. Waltham-abbey, he perceived, was kept up for the manufacturing of powder, and at an expense of 6,000l. Where was the necessity for this? For, according to the statement of the right hon. member, we had powder enough on hand to last the country for 25 years to come. It was said, that this was done to keep the men employed; but if the powder was not wanted, it was absurd to keep men in pay to make it. He admitted that such establishments were useful in the commencement of the war; but were there any circumstances now existing which would warrant their continuance? He would conclude by moving, as an amendment, a reduction of 13,000l. on the whole charge; viz., 10,000l. for Demerara, and 3,000l. for the Ionian Islands.

§ Mr. Wilmot
said, that as the objection had been raised to the item for the expenses of the dam of Demerara, he felt it necessary to repeat the information which he had given to the hon. member upon a' former occasion, and with which he was 1365 sure the House would be quite satisfied. It was not denied that this work was a great public service. It was agreed that it was not only of use to the Ordnance department in the colony, but mainly so to the town; and it was therefore the opinion of government that it should bear a proportion of the expense. This had been communicated to the colony, and he was in daily expectation of receiving an answer. Under these circumstances, the grant was only to be considered as an item on account, which would be repaid by the colony. With regard to what the hon. member had said upon the subject of places in Demerara, he seemed to forget that a law had passed which prevented persons from holding places in that colony who were not upon the spot. Considering the incidental expenses to which the governor was liable, the allowance made to him was certainly not too much. With regard to the Ionian islands, he must be permitted to remark, that it was no fault of his that the expenditure incurred in them had not been fully examined. He denied the correctness of the construction which the hon. member had placed upon the treaty; and said, that though it might, perhaps, be justified by the words, it was by no means justified by the spirit of it. He contended that there was no, distinct agreement by which the Ionian islands were bound to defray the expenses of the military establishment stationed among them.

§ Mr. Creevey
said, he should propose an amendment relative to the grant for the fortifications of Barbadoes. Strong as the case was that he had made out on this subject on former occasions, it was at present far stronger than it had ever been before; for the committee had now a distinct admission from a member of his majesty's government, that in cases where works were carried on that were necessary for the service of a colony, the colony was to be called upon to sustain a portion of their expense. Such at least was the doctrine proposed regarding the island of Demerara; and that brought him to consider the case of the island of Barbadoes. The public was now called upon to pay 4,000l. for the fortifications of that island—for works that it was stated were most useful and necessary to its well being. If such a sum were to be paid for such a purpose, he trusted that 1366 a similar pledge would be demanded from the island of Barbadoes as had been extorted from the island of Demerara. If government would give him a pledge to compel the re-payment of this grant, he would withdraw his amendment. He knew there was a difference in the two cases; but the difference was all in his favour. In Barbadoes there was a specific act, providing a fund for the repair of its fortifications. That fund, however, was now kept, not for the repair of fortifications, but for the pensioners of England. Since the last discussion, a return had been made of the surplus of this fund over the expenses of the fortifications; and that return consisted of the simple word nil. In short, there was no surplus to meet the 4,000l. that it was necessary to lay out on the works of the island. "In this House," continued Mr. Creevey, "degraded as it is [loud cries of "order"]—degraded I must call it, though I die for it, while it refuses to receive—" [Mr. Brogden called the hon. member to order.] He would sit down with moving, that the grant be diminished: by the sum of 4,670l. 14s. 6d.

§ Mr. Wilmot
maintained, that there was a wide difference between the cases of Demerara and Barbadoes. The repairs in the latter case were of a military nature; but in the former they were made for the purpose of conferring advantage upon the chief town of the colony. Alluding to what had fallen from the hon. member, regarding the insular situation of Demerara, he must take the liberty of correcting the geography of the hon. member. On looking to his map, he would find that the insular situation of Demerara was to be found nowhere except in his fertile imagination. The hon. secretary then proceeded to contend that the 4½ per cent duties were not applicable to the purposes which Mr. Creevey had mentioned. Those duties had been given to the Crown, in exchange for certain concessions which it had made to the colony. In proof of this assertion, he referred to the colonial act of 1663, and to certain other papers of which he read extracts to the House. Upon a reference to the whole of these acts, he could see nothing whatever to establish the proposition, that the 4½ per cent duties were given to the king, for the purpose of being applied exclusively to the colonial purposes of the islands. He must argue this question upon the analogy furnished 1367 by the acts of Montserrat, Nevis, and the Virgin islands.

§ Mr. Creevey
said, that nothing was so extraordinary as to hear the conditions of one act of parliament, which were in their nature and terms imperative, attempted to be construed by the analogy of other acts, which had no application whatever to Barbadoes. What signified to him what had been the 50 years practice of swindling and stealing in defiance of the Barbadoes act? [Murmurs from the ministerial benches]. He liked those murmurs, and wished that the people could hear them.

§ Mr. Bright
would not enter into the controversy, whether or not the Crown had perverted the 4½ per cent duties. It was a very fit subject for inquiry at another moment; but he thought the country was bound to maintain the fortifications at Barbadoes, and he must therefore support the present grant.

Mr. Bernal
said, the object of his hon. friend was, not to refuse the sums necessary to support the island of Barbadoes, but to see that those sums were taken from a proper source. He contended that the 4½ per cent fund ought to be applied to the expenses of the island. With reference to the act of Charles 2nd, it was one of atrocious and tyrannical extortion; and one of the articles of lord Clarendon's impeachment was founded upon that lord's defence of the king's conduct towards the island.

Mr. Marryat
contended that it would be very hard on the colony of Barbadoes, because we had taken from them the fund which belonged to them, to call upon them to provide a fresh fund for the purposes of the colony. If a motion were brought forward on the subject of the misapplication of the 4½ per cent fund, it should have his support; but there was not a shadow of justice in refusing to the colony the supplies necessary for its defence.

§ Mr. P. Moore
contended, that his hon. friend had made good his position, that the funds arising from this 4½ per cent duty had been dissipated by official profligacy, and that now, when the fortifications of Barbadoes were out of repair, the people of England were called upon to advance the expenses.

Mr. Williams
agreed, that the fortifications ought to be kept in repair by the king out of the 4½ per cent duties, and not by money drawn out of the pockets of the people of this country.

List of the Minority.
Allen, J. A.	Moore, P.
Belgrave, lord	Maberly, J.
Bennet, hon. G.	Martin, John
Blake, sir F.	Pym, F.
Boughey, sir J.	Palmer, C. F.
Bernal, R.	Rumbold, S.
Burdett, sir F.	Ricardo, D.
Barrett, S. M.	Robinson, sir G.
Dickinson, W.	Rickford, W.
Davies, col.	Ridley, sir M. W.
Fergusson, sir R. C.	Rice, S.
Griffith, J. W.	Smith, W.
Gurney, R. H.	Scott, J.
Haldimand, W.	Whitbread, W.
Hume, J.	Whitbread, S. C.
Hobhouse, J. C.	Wilson, sir R.
James, W.	Williams, W.
Jervoise, G. P.	Wood, alderman
Lushington, Dr.	TELLER.
Leycester, R.	Creevy, T.