HC Deb 25 March 1822 vol 6 cc1264-78

The order of the day was read for going into a committee of supply, to consider further of the Ordnance Estimates. On the question, "That Mr. Speaker do now leave the Chair,"

Mr. Creevey

said, he should take that opportunity of doing what He had done last session e namely, of directing the attention of the House to a particular item in the Ordnance Estimates, which ought not to be included in theme die alluded to a sum of 4,670l. 14s. 6d. included in these Estimates, for the repair of the fortifications of Barbadoes. Now, the House must be aware, that there was a fund expressly provided for this purpose, by an act passed in the year 1663, imposing a duty of 4½ per cent on certain colonial produce, for the express purpose of furnishing a fund for repairing the fortifications of the island. Instead of being applied, however, to this purpose, the fund had been divided in pensions among persons of the higher orders, including gentlemen, ladies, and children. The act of 1663 had been solemnly recognized by the act of 1st of Anne, and directions were then given by the Queen, for applying the fund forthwith to the purpose for which it was raised. All this was admitted to be true, and the only answer attempted to be given was, that it had become the practice to give away the, money to people of fashion. He really thought it high time to abolish this practice. When the country was labouring under the greatest distress; when the sovereign had felt the necessity of giving up a portion of his income; when they, were waging war with clerks, in the bill now passing through the House, for the sake of reducing the public expenditure, it was too much to call upon the people of this country to pay a sum of 1,670l. for the purpose of repairing the fortifications in Barbadoes, when there was a sum provided by act of parliament for this express purpose, which sum was admitted to be given away in pensions and sinecures to persons of the higher orders. It was his intention to bring forward a specific motion on this subject after the holidays; but he could not let pass this opportunity of moving, "That it be an instruction to the Committee to examine whether the duties of 4½per cent, raised in the Island of Barbadoes are adequate to discharge the sum of 4,670l. 14s. 6d. which is comprised in the Ordnance Estimates of the present year, for repairs of Forts in the said Island."

The Marquis of Londonderry

said, was certainly competent to the hon. gentleman to make the present motion, with a view of entering his protest against the principle of the particular vote on the Journals. He thought, however, it would be more convenient, both to the hon. gentleman and to the House, not to discuss the question now, but to reserve his observations till the particular vote came before the committee in the estimates, or when he brought forward his promised motion on the subject.

Mr. Hume

said, that the instruction ought in all fairness to be allowed by the noble lord. It was only to the extent of desiring the attention of the committee to it. The committee could dispose of it as they might think proper. On that ground he should oppose the present motion.

Mr. Goulburn

said, that the committee of supply might leave out a particular vote; but it was not within its province to divide upon a general question of colonial policy.

The House divided: For the Instruction, 22; Against it, 62.

List of the Minority.
Bernal, R. Newport, sir J.
Blake, sir F. Phillips, G.
Belgrave, lord Phillips, G. R.
Barrett, S. B. M. Ricardo, D.
Butterworth, J. Smith, hon. R.
Davies, col. Western, C.
Fergusson, sir R. C. Williams, W.
Kennedy, T. F. Whitbread, S.
Jervoise, G. P. Wilson, sir R.
James, W. TELLERS.
Leycester, R. Creevey, T.
Martin, J. Hume, J.
Monck, J. B.

The House having resolved itself into the committee,

Mr. Ward

proceeded to move the Ordnance Estimates. The sum required was 1,244,000l. The grant was composed of five divisions—the ordinary, the extraordinary, the unprovided for expenses, and the superannuations, civil and military. The charge upon the first was 473,436l., being 74,329l. less than last year; upon the second, it was 292,744l., being 21,620l. more than last year. The third was 9,884l., being 30,457l. less than last year. The military superannuations, every charge inclusive, were 6,048l. more than last year, being 319,751l.: and the civil superannuations gave also an increase of 9,325l., being 51,552l.; but the rise in the two last items was necessarily consequent upon the diminutions in the body of the estimates, seeing that those diminutions arose out of reduction of offices. The article of Ireland was 96,629l. being 15,207l. less than last year; and the total charge amounted to 1,244,000l.: deduct a presumed credit of 44,000l. for sales of old stores, lands, buildings, &c., and the sum to be voted was 1,200,000l., which was a larger vote by 105,000l. than the vote of last year; but as the credit taken this year, 44,000l., was 188,000l. less than that of last year, 232,000l., the actual difference between the Ordnance expenditure of 1821 and 1822 was a saving in the present year of 83,000l.—Having stated, then, the amount of reduction, his next object was, to committee how that reduction had been effected. It had been obtained upon two branches—both upon the civil and the military departments—and the saving was chiefly in the ordinary estimate; upon the extraordinary, indeed, there was an excess, which would be accounted for. The right hon. gentleman then went into a detail of changes which had been effected. By the reduction of offices in the Tower and in Pallmall establishments, there was a real saving (upon a charge of 43,000l. in the last year) of 6,200l. in the present; the nominal saving was 7,000l., but a portion of it was created by transfers from the ordinary to the extraordinary; on the contingent expenses of the Tower and Pall-mall, there was also a diminution of 1,900l. There was a further deduction, upon all situations at home and abroad of 7,381l.; but that sum, though reduced upon the division "ordinary," was not an entire saving upon the total of estimate. In the article of ordinary repairs there was a decrease of 2,300l.: the whole amount of saving upon the civil ordinary expenditure would be 24,343l.; that saving arose out of the reduction of offices, persons in offices, and salaries of persons in offices; and when the committee heard that the number of persons employed in the civil service was more than 100 out of 500 less in the present year than in the last, they would confess that government had not been idle in its retrenchments. Now, the number of persons in the civil Ordnance department, from the master-general to the lowest clerk, being 385 (in the last year they had been 500), if that state were compared with the state of 1792, the difference would appear to be in favour of the present year; the number in.1792, independent of Ireland and the it many colonies since added to this country by conquest, was 359; and, allowing for those then non-existent services 55, tai number would become 414, being a balance of 29 in favour of the year 1822. The committee would believe that great pains and attention had been requisite to effect such reductions. It was an irksome duty for the head of a department to reduce the emoluments of persons who had long been in office; and nothing but an absolute sense of duty to the House and to the country could have enabled such officers to go as far as they had gone. The right hon. member then proceeded to observe upon his having promised many of the savings effected in his address upon the estimates of last year. It might, perhaps, be asked why the reductions had not at once taken place last year, or even before. The truth was, that the reductions had then been in contemplation; but it was not the work of a moment to judge of then probable convenience or effect. The master-general bad, in fact, contemplated a total change in the constitution of the civil offices of his department: he wished to reduce the expensive offices of the clerks of the cheque, and the clerks of the survey; and, after looking himself completely through the subject, after having had the constitution and almost the particular detail of every duty laid before him, he had resolved to make an arrangement for the reduction of those offices. The right hon. member then went into a description of the course by which the business of the cheque and survey was proposed to be carried on. A still more Considerable reduction than that at present, effected was contemplated as years elapsed. The master-general was unwilling to take more from men who had been, some thirty and some fifty years in their situations, than the percentage deducted from all civil offices through the state; but, as soon as the holding of the present incumbents expired, fresh officers, at reduced rates of salary would be appointed; and the amount of civil expendi- ture, now standing at 130,000l., would probably sink to about 75,000l. It would be evident to the committee; that the arrangements already stated would cast a considerable increase of business upon the board; but notwithstanding that fact, it was farther in contemplation to throw two great civil departments, which had often been observed upon in the House the barrack department and the storekeeper's department—under the superintendance of the Ordnance. The scheme at present was in its infancy, and government was not prepared to say when it could take effect; but, upon investigation of the whole system, they had come to the determination, that the master general of the Ordnance, without any superintending officer, and merely by the assistance of the necessary number of clerks, would be enabled to perform the duty. At the same time he felt it necessary to say, that he only wished the departments might be as ably managed as they were under the gentlemen who now conducted them.—He now came to the savings in the military branch of ordinary expenditure. The committee would see that almost all the regular pay of the military was charged upon the ordinary expenditure; and he had to congratulate the committee on this part of his subject, upon an improvement in the military structure of one portion of the Ordnance service, which was solely attributable to the genius and activity of the master-general. The improvement to which he alluded was one which had taken place in the corps of gunner drivers. Lord Mulgrave had projected and commenced a change in the constitution of that corps, but the duke of Wellington had carried the scheme to perfection; and the proposal of the master-general was this—he would cut away altogether the officers of the drivers, and mix the men in due proportions in the companies of artillery. By that arrangement, the drivers would be under the immediate command and inspection of the officers who fought the guns, instead of standing as they did at present in a kind of anomalous situation, commanded by one set of officers in barracks and stable, and by another set in the field; 300 men (and 100 from St. Helena made 400) would be reduced; and in future all recruits would be enlisted to serve as gunners as well as drivers, which would obviate the existing arrangement of division into two distinct corps altogether. The immediate effect of the above stated alteration would be a saving of the whole charge for the drivers, 17,590l.; but as some small addition would be created in the subsistence of those regiments in battalions to which the men might be drafted, the nett reduction ought to be stated perhaps at 16,000l. On the estimate for the corps of engineers there was an increase since last year of 790l.; upon that for the sappers and miners the increase was something under 100l.; the total military reduction came to 16,000l. some hundreds; and the military state, therefore, comparing the present year with the year 1792, would show a like advantage in favour of the present year: we had, allowing for Ireland and the colonies, 90 men less employed than in the year 1792, with the farther benefit of having now a relief of 250 on the seas for the service of our foreign possessions, while in 1792 we had no relief at all. There had been a small increase in the ordinary, by transfers from the extraordinary charge. There was a sum of 2,200l. fur labourers—a mass of labourers formerly paid under the general head of Tower contingencies, being now carried to account under the different heads of the stations where they were employed; there was a further charge for a split item of stationery, 2,700l., and another of 2,624l. for the field train. Another charge transferred into the ordinary was for clerks in stores upon the West India stations. Among charges transferred into the extraordinary division, was one considerable one of 16,000l. for barrack furniture: that now appeared under the general head "barracks" in the extraordinary; and there were other circumstances which led to an excess in that branch of the expenditure. The first of those articles was the cost of erecting a dam or sea-bank at Demerara. It was hoped that the colony would eventually be able to defray the expense of the dam; and, in that case government would repay the amount to the Ordnance department, but at present it stood in the charge of extraordinaries: the whole cost of the work was estimated at about 23,000l.; but 10,000l. was taken as the expense actually incurred in the year.—The right hon. gentleman then proceeded to state, that the effect of various articles contributing to swell the extraordinary charge, produced an excess upon that charge of about 21,000l.; and after a few cursory remarks upon the state of the extra pay, he declared that he thought it unnecessary, unless called upon by questions from hon. members, to occupy the time of the committee any farther upon the ordinary and extraordinary branches of the estimate. He now came to the unprovided-for expense; and there he trusted he did not speak too confidently when he said that he anticipated the approval of the committee. The unprovided-for charge, which was 9,884l. in the present year, had been 40,311l. in the last year, and 60,000l. in some years preceding. Under the auspices of the surveyor-general, to whose intelligence and activity the service was much indebted, a reduction in the Irish expenditure had also been effected to the amount of 15,207l.; the names of the persons reduced, and the amounts of their salaries, would be found detailed in the estimates. He sat down with moving, "That 35,843l. 17s. 8d. be granted for defraying the salaries to the master-general, clerks, &c. belonging to the Office of Ordnance, and employed at the Tower and Pall-Mall."

Mr. Hume

admitted, that the officers of the Ordnance department had been active in their inquiries, but he was yet unsatisfied with the quantity of reduction effected. He would state his own view of what he thought might have been done, and would then leave the committee to judge between it and that proposed by the right hon. gentleman. Though one or two of the changes which had been effected appeared to him to be likely to produce a beneficial result, he thought that the board for the barrack department was kept up at a very heavy and unnecessary expense; and he should therefore make a motion to get rid of it altogether. He should submit to the committee the expenses of the Ordnance department at different periods, in order to enable it to decide what they ought to be at the present moment, by comparing them with what they had been upon former occasions. He should take the year 1817 as one period, and the year 1796 as the other, and in his view of the Ordnance expenses in those years he should leave out of consideration the amount of stores, and also the charges not provided for by parliament. In 1796, the ordinaries for Ireland amounted, to 22,000l.—for Great Britain the ordinaries amounted to 121,000l., and the extraordinaries to 156,000l., making a total of 399,000l. In 1817, the same item formed a, total of 1,231,000l. the years 1818, 1819, 1820, and 1821, the charge increased, and in 1822 it amounted to 1,244,000l., being 2,000l. more than it was in 1817. Though the estimates this year exceeded the estimates of 1817 by that sum, still he would not conceal from the committee that the charges not provided for this year were only 9,000l. whereas in 1817 they were 50,000l. The right hon. gentleman had talked much of the reductions he had made, and he (Mr. H.) had consequently expected to hear of some reductions in the estimates for the sea-service of the Ordnance. In 1796, the estimates for that branch of the public service amounted to 41,000l.; in 1817, they amounted to 49,000l.; and in the present year, 1822, they amounted to 85,000l. Surely some reduction ought to have been effected on this bead, or at least some explanation given why none had been or could be made. The right hon. gentleman had also taken credit to himself for the reductions which had been made in the civil branches of the Ordnance. After stating that in 1792 the number of individuals employed in the civil departments of the Ordnance in Great Britain and Ireland was only 385, he had added that the number now employed was not more than 414. There were no returns on the table which enabled him to say whether this assertion was correct or not; but assuming it to be so, he would still say that the best way of understanding the benefit produced by those reductions would be by examining into the constitution of each individual department. In the year 1796, the secretary to the board had seven clerks under him; in 1821, he had 30 clerks under him; and in 1822, he had 23 clerks under him. Now, the committee would observe, that here was a great increase in the number of persons employed. He would next call upon it to observe the increase in the expenditure. In 1796, 833l. was divided among the 7 clerks. In 1821, the salaries of 36 clerks, along with their gratuities, amounted to 10,310l.; and in the present year a reduction of 1,800l. was made in that sum, by the reduction of seven clerks. In 1796, there were 14 clerks under the surveyor-general, at an expense of 2,020l. inclusive of gratuities. In 1821, 36 clerks, at an expense of 10,621l., inclusive also of gratuities; and in the present year, a reduction of 1,520l. was effected by the reduction of seven clerks. The hon. member then pointed out the increase in the number of clerks, and in the expenditure, which had taken place in the office of the clerk of the Ordnance, and of the principal storekeeper, since the year 1796; and afterwards declared that the only department, in which he found the number of persons employed absolutely reduced, was that over which the treasurer of the board presided. In 1796, the treasurer had ten clerks under him, at an expense of 1,203l.; in 1821, he had twelve, at an expense of 3,354l.; and in the present year, owing to four of them being reduced, he had only eight at an expense of 2,096l.—He had now pointed out the great increase which had taken place in the number of persons employed in four of the civil departments of the Ordnance; and he could not see how there could have been a reduction in the Ordnance which had brought the number of persons employed to within 79 of the number employed in 1796, when there had been 50 additional clerks employed in the busines conducted in Pall-Mall and the Tower. If that were really the case, the business of the Ordnance must be most unequally distributed. He recollected that it had been asserted on a former occasion, that the increased number of individuals employed by the Ordnance was owing to the increased number of stations. Now, this turned out not to be the case, since the increase appeared to have only taken place in the offices in Pall-Mall and the Tower. Those two offices, in his opinion, ought to be consolidated; and in that opinion he was supported by the report of the commissioners of military inquiry, who had declared that the business of them ought to be conducted under one roof. The clerks of delivery of stores at the Tower and Woolwich ought to be done away with; or, instead of there being two, only one should be permitted to remain. The commissioners of military inquiry declared that the Tower was far from being a convenient place for the reception of stores, and recommended that they should be kept at Woolwich, where one storekeeper could superintend them all. He must say, that he had expected that in the list of places to be reduced, that of clerk of deliveries would have been found.—The hon. member then proceeded to discuss how far it was proper to have a lieutenant-governor of the Tower in time of peace. In order to show that such an office was unneces- sary, he quoted the declarations made by lords Moira and Chatham before the commissioners of military inquiry as to its positive inutility. He contended, that reductions might have been made in the civil branches of the Ordnance to three times the extent that they had been carried at present. Instead of there being four members of the board of Ordnance, members of that House, the commissioners of military inquiry had recommended that there should only be two; on the ground, that their attendance in parliament interfered with the performance of their other public duties. How far the carrying of that recommendation into effect would be productive of economy, he could not tell; but this he knew, that upon other grounds it would be most expedient; for it would prevent that full attendance of official gentlemen, which had gained to ministers at least two-thirds of their majorities during the present session. After a full consideration of the question, he had come to this conclusion, that though reductions had been made in the offices in the Tower and Pall-Mall to the amount of 6,000l. or 7,000l., reductions might have been made to three times the amount with equal attention to the service of the country, had a proper spirit of economy actuated his majesty's ministers. The whole expenditure of the offices in the Tower and Pall-Mall amounted in 1792 to 18,726l.; last year it amounted to 65,804l., and it was this year short of that sum by a few thousands. After pointing out the enormous increase which had taken place in the expenditure of this establishment, he said he could not help thinking that the heads of the department who had reduced the salaries of so many inferior clerks would have been equally well employed if they had turned their attention to the reduction of their own. If the master-general had taken 1,000l. a year from his own salary, many of those who had suffered by his retrenchments would have borne their fate with greater satisfaction. The master-general's salary was 3,175l. a year, so that he could well have spared 1, 000l. from it. The lieut.-general, if his office were not altogether abolished, could at least have spared something from his salary of 1,566l. a year. So, too, could the surveyor-general, with his salary of 1,236l.; the clerk of the Ordnance, with his salary of 1,286l.; and the principal storekeeper with his salary of 1,600l. a year—a salary, which, in 1792 was only 693l. For his own part, he could not help declaring, that he thought any thing above 1,000l. was a very large sum indeed for a storekeeper. The treasurer of the board could also spare a small portion of his gains. It was true, that in 1796 the treasurer had been allowed to bold balances, and that he was now deprived of all emoluments from that source; still he was of opinion that the gentleman who held that office would be well paid with 1,000l. a year. At a of such general distress, every public officer should sacrifice some part of his emoluments. He should be happy to hear to explanation of the grounds upon which these salaries had been left untouched. If a satisfactory explanation could be given he should not say another word; but if not, he should propose to reduce the pre sent vote by 10,000l.

Mr. Ward

asserted, that, though some offices might be dispensed with, no such sum could be saved in the barrack department as the hon. member had suggested. With regard to the year 1792, he had already taken a view of our Ordnance establishments at that period, and remarked that, upon enumerating all the subtractions which had been made, it appeared there was a diminution in our favour at present of 29 clerks, It was true that the charge of the establishment in Pall-mall had been augmented; but this was in consequence of the very great access of business which had there taken place. An immense portion had been transferred from the out-stations to Pall-mall and the Tower. As to the store-keeper at the Tower, it should be recollected, that be was now the auditor of the store-accounts, and the hon. gentleman seemed not to have noticed, that the sum of 1,800l. in last year's estimates, and which was omitted in the present, was for assistant and temporary clerks—not for clerks of the regular establishment. It was a mistake to suppose that gratuities amounting to 22,000l. were confined in their distribution to the offices at the Tower and in Pall-mall. Under all these circumstances, he could not but regard the hon. gentleman's conclusion, that 10,000l. should be arbitrarily taken from the present vote, as extremely erroneous. If the hon. member were himself to witness the labour performed by the officers and clerks, and more especially by the secretary, he would, with even his great physical powers, admit; hat it could not be exceeded. A new system had been introduced under the immediate authority of the master-general, by which all the clerks were subjected to vigilant superintendance, and the periods as well as duration of their attendance minuted, in order to be reported to their chiefs. Some of them were occasionally detained till a late hour in the evening, for the purpose of bringing a particular account or branch of business to a completion. If 10,000l. were to be arbitrarily taken away the business could certainly not be performed. The hon. member, in alluding to Ireland, had likewise gone back a great many years; and he must beg to remind him and the committee, that at the time mentioned there was a master-general for Ireland, at a salary of 1,500l, per annum. The Ordnance in that part of the United Kingdom required at this moment their utmost attention. To come, now, to the hon. gentleman's observations on the amount of salaries and pecuniary allowances, he could not believe that the committee would consider the master-general's as excessive. He (Mr. Ward) held the appointment of clerk of the Ordnance, and although entitled to no benefit from the new superannuation hill, should be called upon, with all who held the higher or more lucrative situations, to relinquish 10 per cent of his official income. Neither would this result be prevented by the circumstance of its being already 100l. less than it was in 1792; unless indeed, hon. gentlemen on the other side would interfere on the score of justice, to vindicate his claims. [Hear.] The treasurer (Mr. Holmes) was to lose 120l. of his salary, and had, it was well known, always submitted his accounts to the Audit-office, with a clearness and regularity that obtained for him the highest credit. He was one of those included in the superannuation bill, but he sincerely hoped it would be long before his hon. friend felt disposed to avail himself of that advantage. It was true that the commissioners of military inquiry had recommended a junction of the offices at the Tower and in Pall-mall under one roof; and the board had been much engaged in the consideration of this subject. They had not come to any determinate opinion, though it was obvious that they who were habitually conversant with all the details and regulations of the department, must be more competent to form a solid judgment, than a few gentlemen, pursuing their inquiries for a short tinge, and deriving no knowledge from their own experience. He entirely disagreed with their report, and was ready to contest it with the hon. gentleman, point by point. It was not then the time to enter into any question as to the clue influence of the Crown, but he might observe, that only three members of the board of Ordnance sat in that House. The hon. gentleman seemed to think, that the post of lieutenant-general might be dispensed with, but in his (Mr. Ward's) view, it was a situation of considerable importance, as much of the civil business of the Ordnance partook of a military character. With regard to the construction of the board, he was aware that some eminent persons had at different times imagined that it required alteration: but it was an error to suppose, that lord Chatham or lord Mulgrave ever went farther than to propose it as a matter for consideration. The duke of Wellington whose eyes were about him as much as if he were in the face of an enemy, had not come to any such conclusion. He trusted finally, that the committee would not be induced to support an amendment having for its object an arbitrary reduction, on no other ground than that some years ago a certain portion of business was done for less than the sum now estimated by those who had been long engaged in this branch of the public service, and who ought to know best all that related to it.

Mr. Ellice

agreed with his hon. friend, that considerable farther reductions were practicable, and that a junction might be advantageously effected between the two establishments at the Tower and in Pall-mall. How was the House to come to a right conclusion on this subject, if they undervalued the recommendations of persons specially appointed by the Crown for the purpose of inquiring, when there was nothing on the other side but the statements of those interested against them? As to the amendment, there was one principle on which he would support it, and every other, directed against an increase of emolument as compared with the year 1796; and that was, unless it could be shown that the business for which it was granted had proportionately increased likewise. No gentleman expected his private property to increase above that standard, and painful as the process must be, the necessities of the country demanded farther reductions. He did not see why the master-general's allowance should not be diminished; sure he was, that if 3,000l. was a fit salary some years ago, and during the depreciation of money, it was too much at present. His hon. friend contended, night after night, against a host, but with very little success; yet the time was approaching when the public would be no longer able to sustain the pressure. It had been recently stated that the half-pay of military officers was in the nature of a retaining fee, by which they engaged their services as in the event of a new war. Now what he wished to learn was, whether the superannuation allowances were to be regarded in the same light, and whether vacancies in civil appointments were to be filled up from what was to be called the retired list? He was convinced that the country had yet only arrived at part of its distress; and it was the duty of every member to see that both efficient and non-efficient offices were placed on a footing strictly just. The reductions proposed by ministers were far from adequate to the occasion. He considered the mere sacrifice of 10 per cent by persons holding the highest offices as little better than a mockery; and if a division should be pressed, he would certainly vote for the amendment.

Mr. Ward,

in explanation, observed that most of the appointments were from the officers on half-pay, but that in some cases it was necessary to introduce new persons.

Mr. Hume

contended, that he did not deserve the imputation of proposing reductions arbitrarily. He had entered into particulars, and shown how savings might be effected. He even quoted in support of his recommendations the recorded opinion of a commission which had investigated the subject. In the storekeeping department alone, by the adoption of the reforms which the commissioners had pointed out, and which he had re-urged, the whole saving of 10,000l. might be effected. The allowances of the master-general should not be the same in peace as in war. While the heads of departments continued to enjoy undiminished emoluments, he could not allow that any symptoms of economy appeared whatever talk they might hear of it. He would conclude by moving, that the vote be reduced by 10,000l.

The committee divided: For the amendment 30. Against it 95. Majority against the amendment 65. The original resolution was then agreed to.

List of the Minority.
Barrett, S.B. M. M'Donald, James
Benyon, B. Maule, hon. W.
Bernal, R. Monck, J. B.
Birch, J. Palmer, C. F.
Blake, sir F. Pym, F.
Bright, H. Rickford, W.
Bury, visct. Ricardo, David
Creevey, T. Robinson, sir G.
Davies, col. Robarts, col.
Dickinson, W. Rumbold, C. E.
Fergusson, sir R. C. Scott, James
Griffith, J. W. Smith, W.
Haldimand, W. Whitbread, S.
Hume, J. Wood, ald.
James, W. TELLER.
Jervoise, G. P. Ellice, E.
Lushington, Dr.