§ Mr. Wynn moved the second reading of this bill.
§ Mr. Chalonersaid, it was a remarkable circumstance, that those who advocated the measure had no connexion with the county of York, and therefore could receive no injury if it were carried. On the other hand, the various interests in the county of York which would be effected by it felt no inclination to support the measure. That which principally created his hostility to the bill was the direct and gross injury which it would inflict on the exercise of the elective franchise. If the electors had committed 847 an infraction of any act of parliament, it would perhaps be right to visit them with this measure. But he knew not what they had done to merit such an infliction; and, therefore, he should move as an amendment, "That the bill be read a second time this day six months."
§ Mr. Ramsdencould perceive no benefit which the bill was likely to produce, Out was confident that its effects would be mischievous. The voice of the great body of the Yorkshire electors was decidedly against it. He held in his hand a statement of the sentiments of the grand jury on the subject. Of 22 members 21 were present when the expression of their opinion took place. Of these 21 members, 17 decided against the bill, and, four reserved their opinion. Three of this latter number had since given their opinion against this measure, and one gentleman, who was absent at the time, was supposed to be hostile to it. The only one in favour of the bill was the county treasurer. It would have a baneful effect on the elective franchise. As the law now stood, he had four votes for the county of York; but if this measure were agreed to, he should only have two.
§ Mr. Wilberforceconsidered this question as one of very high importance. A variety of opinions existed as to the best mode of popular representation. Some wished to confine the elective franchise to large counties, towns, and districts; others were desirous of extending it to places of smaller consequence. From the extent of its population, and its diversity of character, all those varieties of opinion were to be found in the county of York, which might be said to constitute a little empire. He was, however, entirely in favour of having future elections for that county carried on as they had formerly been. The feeling of constitutional importance which arose from an election so conducted was of no small value in the support of public liberty. To know that by their proceedings at a great election, they gave a tone to the rest of the country, was exceedingly pleasing to the people, and was a principle which they valued in the extreme. On the importance of keeping this stimulating principle alive, the late Mr. Fox had dilated in public and private company; and his opinion, he was convinced, would be treated with respect. The bill of the right hon. gentleman would have a contrary effect. The right hon. gentleman conceived that the 848 county of York was so large and populous, that the election of members by a portion of it would be sufficient to satisfy the ambition even of those who were most fond of popular applause, while it would prevent the evils arising from a great and expensive contest. This proved to him that the right hon. gentleman was not, acquainted with the local circumstances of Yorkshire. If the great extent of a county were to be assigned as a reason for making such a division, where were they to stop? Why should not Devonshire or Lancashire be divided? If the reason were good for any thing, he knew not what boundary could assigned to the innovation. The same course might be pursued with respect to great and populous cities. To say that such or such a portion of electors was of sufficient importance to introduce a member to that House, was to let a principle into their system of legislation better calculated to justify the bold experiments hi representation which were hourly recommended, than any other plan he had yet heard of. The great expense of a contest for York, shire was one of the reasons adduced in support of this bill; but as great an expense had been incurred even in borough elections. Small places, as Waterloo and Agincourt, were sometimes the theatres of great actions; and elections for small towns and boroughs had frequently created immense expense. Two or three noble families had, he believed, been ruined by contested elections for Northampton; but no one had thought it necessary on that account to divide the district. Any attempt to make popular election a sort of closet or private affair, instead of a proceeding that would bring forward the feelings, passions, and energies of men, ought to be condemned, because it militated against public liberty. He loved those feelings of constitutional liberty which, he contended, could not be maintained if elections were converted into mere matters of private arrangement. He had been himself elected six times for the county, and he cherished a grateful recollection of the kindness with which he had been received. The support he had met with tilled his heart with the warmest gratitude; but those who gave him that support knew it was not his cause they were upholding, but the cause of the independence and freedom of the county. They knew the contest was an expensive one, and therefore a munificent subscription was raised 849 new era for that country. By it he hoped to prevent the necessity of keeping up the large military establishment there, and of employing military force upon all occasions.
§ Sir H. Parnellfully agreed that the present measure was one of the most important that could be submitted to their consideration, with reference to the condition or interests of Ireland; but he could not help regarding as most grievous, the consequences of that neglect which had marked the proceedings of those to whom the government of Ireland had been hitherto confided. In that country there was still visible a sort of lawlessness which seemed to indicate that the effects of early conquests were not yet terminated. Among the more immediate causes of confusion, however, he might mention the want of a proper system of communication between the executive authority and the different counties. In England this branch of the civil power was in full vigour, and there were lords lieutenant in every county with whom government might correspond, and derive, through these means, timely information with regard to all that was passing, or likely to occur. One material defect of this measure was, that it offered no enactment for improving the present state and character of the magistracy in Ireland. Its sole purpose was, to provide for a new mode of appointing constables, and the bill might be considered as going to vest greater powers in the hands of magistrates, who were already notorious for doing all they could to bring the laws into disrepute. It was but recently that one of them was convicted of turning every process that came before him to his own private emolument. It was no uncommon case for a justice of the peace to derive 200l. or 300l. a year from his office. The first object, therefore, was, to establish some officer in each county with whom the government might communicate, and then to reform the magistracy. This ought to be done immediately—his majesty's ministers ought to take courage to do it. Of the existing body of magistrates some held considerable tracts of land, and having themselves tithes to pay to a large amount, had been detected in encouraging and fomenting the tumults which had proceeded from that cause. It was not surprising, therefore, that the police should he defective. Such were its defects, that outrages and reorders were often committed with im- 850 punity? For want of a regular execution of the laws, every one looked for redress in his own schemes; and gave way to the sudden and violent impulses of revenge. It was to this cause and not to defective Excise regulations, that undue collection and inadequate produce of the revenue was to be attributed. Another ill consequence was, that it impaired general credit, and often subjected individuals to wants and hardships that were foreign to a commercial country, and might even subject people to starve in the midst of plenty. Now, the new system which the right hon. gentleman proposed to introduce appeared to be a system of military police, or at least he did not know where to trace the distinction between it and the police of France. Why, if they took care to reform the magistracy, should they not, in the first instance, try the constitutional police of this country? He had no doubt that if the whole system of constables were assimilated to the English, there would then he an efficient civil power in Ireland. The Irish grand juries had so many other objects to attend to, that the appointment of constables was necessarily subordinate. The errors that were committed in the choice might proceed from inattention rather than from any corrupt motive. In England the appointment of constables lay with individual magistrates. Why, if they themselves were properly selected, should not the same confidence be reposed in the magistrates of the sister country? He had a decided objection to any measure which was likely to disgust the resident gentry of the country; and he could not help wishing that the right hon. gentleman would restrict his plan to the formation of an auxiliary police; leaving the appointment of the common constables to the same authority, with which it at present rested. Nor did he think the efficacy of the measure by any means so certain as the right hon. gentleman supposed. If the existing common constables were reduced, government would have the disposal of from 3,000 to 4,000 new appointments; and how was the disposal of those appointments to be conducted, so as to prevent the degenerating of the whole system into a job? Applications from every unfit quarter would not he wanting; and he was quite certain that many county magistrates (the fittest persons to recommend) would decline communicating with government upon the subject. He was sure the 851 judgment, not of the county of York, but of the whole kingdom. Nothing could be more injurious than to say that this measure belonged to the county of York, and that it was improper in the member for Montgomery to bring it forward. He protested against this argument, and must contend, that those who were unconnected with the local interests or prejudices of a place, were likely to bring forward more advantageous measures for the removal of any evil that affected it, than those who would probably be guided by their passions or feelings. With respect to the opinion of the grand jury, he would only say, that nothing could be mores pernicious than for a grand jury to leave the local business which was intrusted to their care, for the purpose of giving an opinion on questions of general interest. He found that 19 or 20 of these gentlemen had declared against the bill. Now, with all due respect for their opinion, on a measure which concerned the interest of 23,000 voters, and of the county at large, he did not think it was entitled to more respect than that of any other 19 or 20 gentlemen who had considered the nature and object of the measure.
Lord Normanbysaid, that the House ought to pause before they proceeded farther with a measure which was as inimical to the interests as it was obnoxious to the feelings of the freeholders of York.
§ Lord Hothamcontended, that the bill would be beneficial to the county of York, and denied that they had any reason to believe that the county was averse to it.
§ Mr. Stuart Wortleysaid, that a decided majority of the freeholders were against the bill. The West Riding were almost unanimous against it.
§ Admiral Sotheronthought it would be for the benefit of all parties that the county should be kept entire.
§ Mr. Denisonopposed the measure, and expressed a wish that a bill similar to that formerly brought forward by lord Milton, might be adopted.
§ Mr. H. Sumnersupported the bill, and contended that the West Riding ought not to ride over the two other ridings.
The question being put, "That the bill be now read a second time," the House divided: Ayes, 27; Noes, 69. The second reading was accordingly put off for six months.