HC Deb 01 July 1822 vol 7 cc1413-33

The House having resolved itself into a committee of Ways and Means,

The Chancellor of the Exchequer

said, it might be thought requisite for him make some apology to the House for submitting to it the general state of the financial operations of the year, before it had acceded to a large portion of the estimates which it was generally thought necessary to pass previously to any winding up of the statement of the public expenditure. It had generally been deemed proper to go through the whole of the votes of Supply before the Ways and Means were submitted to the House, containing a review of the operations of finance by which they were to be substantiated. He was obliged, however, to deviate from that course on the present occasion, owing to the late period to which the session had been protracted. Each side of the House mutually charged the other with being the cause of delay; but, without staying to inquire to which of them it ought to be attributed, he should take it for granted that they were all agreed to let the public business proceed henceforth with as little interruption as possible. He could assure the House that his statement could not be deferred any longer without great inconvenience to the public interests. In the first place, it was desirable that the general statement of the finances should be submitted to parliament before the arrival of that period of the year in which its members left their residences in London for the country; and, in the second place, it was necessary that certain votes should pass before the 5th of July. The House was aware that the sinking fund, according to the resolution passed in 1819, was only voted to the 5th of July. Now, the sinking fund for 1821 would expire within a few days; and unless a vote to continue it were passed before the expiration of that time, it would be impossible, without much irregularity to prevent the loss of a quarter. If no vote were passed before the 5th of July, the commissioners would be bound to apply a fund of three or four millions, which they now had in hand, in a manner which would not only be highly inconvenient to themselves, but which would also create an irregular purchase of stock by no means desirable. He should therefore state the expenditure according to the estimates laid before parliament, although the whole of them had not yet obtained its sanction; taking care, however, to observe the constant rule and practice of parliament, that the grant of no sum should be made that was not absolutely required for the public service, and leaving, with all due constitutional jealousy, in the discretion of the Crown, no sum of un appropriated money, which, even though it were not misplaced, would still be dangerous from the precedent it would establish. He should therefore proceed to ask for a sum which would cover all the services of the year, as well those which had been sanctioned by parliament as those which had not; and in doing so, he could assure them that he was not asking for a single farthing more than was necessary.

Having stated to the House his reasons for bringing on the budget at a time when several of the services of the year were yet under consideration, he should next proceed to state the amount of the different votes, and the Ways and Means by which he proposed to defray them. The sum wanted for the military service of Great Britain and Ireland amounted to 7,925,000l. of this sum 6,530,000l. had been already voted, and the remainder had not. The naval services amounted to 5,480,000l. and had all been voted. So had the ordnance services, amounting to 1,200,000l. Of the miscellaneous services, amounting to 1,700,000l.—764,000l. had been voted for Great Britain, and 50,000l. for Ireland, besides which 100,000l. had been voted to Ireland in a committee of Supply. The remainder, amounting to above 790,000l. was to be found among the estimates which at present lay upon the table. There was also on the table a charge of 310,000l. for the out-pensioners of Greenwich hospital; 1,200,000l. for interest upon Exchequer bills; and 291,606l. for payments for services charged upon the aids of the year, but not specially voted. Thus the amount of services already sanctioned by parliament was about 15,300,000l. and there remained for services for which the estimates had not been voted 2,500,000l. making a grand total of 17,815,000l. But there had likewise been made during the present session considerable advances for t he reduction of the public debt. There was a charge of 290,000l. for sinking fund on Exchequer bills, and of 2,801,000l. for the re-payment of the holders of 5 per cents, of which 62,000l. for the re-payment of the holders of Irish 5 per cents remained yet to be voted. There was likewise to be voted 290,456l. for the deficiency of the Ways and Means for 1821. He would here enter into an explanation to show that be had not been negligent of his duty last year, when he left a deficiency to the amount he had just stated. Gentlemen who had attended to the debates of last year, would recollect that he had at that time submitted to the committee that a deficiency was likely to arise in consequence of some circumstances which affected the out-pensioners of Greenwich hospital. The whole expense both of the in-pensioners and out pensioners had been defrayed, up to the last year, out of the funds of the hospital itself. A great part of those funds was vested in stock, and arose out of the share of prize money to which it was entitled during war. Now, as there was no prize money coming into its coffers during a time of peace, its funds had become so reduced, that the accountant-general of the hospital had found it necessary to state to government his opinion that no payments could be lawfully made from it to the out-pensioners, and that the expense of supporting them must thenceforwards devolve upon the public. That opinion was referred to the consideration of the Crown lawyers; and though their decision upon it was not known at the time he made his last year's financial statement, he had still felt it his duty to state that a deficiency was likely to arise, and that a demand of the nature he had just mentioned would be made upon the public. As soon as that demand was made, he proposed an act of parliament to enable him to issue Exchequer bills to meet it. About 260,000l. had been so paid; and an explanation of the services for which the remainder was required would be found in a paper upon their table. Now, if these three last mentioned sums, amounting together to 3,381,456l. and all employed for the i reduction of the debt incurred, were added to the 17,815,000l. of which he had before spoken, it would appear that the total sum wanted for the services of the year was 21,196,456l.

To make good this amount, he should now propose his Ways and Means, stating at the same time, that part of them had been already agreed to by parliament. In the first place, annual taxes to the amount of 3,000,000l. had been already voted. These taxes last year amounted to 4,000,000l. but they had been reduced this year to 3,000,000l. by the reduction of the annual malt duties, which formed a large constituent part of the annual taxes of last year. The next item was 1,500,000l. reserved upon the tea duties, and 200,000l. upon the lottery. [Hear, hear!] There was some objection, it appeared, to this latter mode of raising money; he wished that those who objected to it would point out to him some other mode less objectionable of raising it. The next item was, old stores 151,000l. That item last year amounted to 163,100l. but, as it was one that arose from the general equipment of our forces, it was evident that it would diminish during peace, from time to time, until it reached the average of consumption. In the last year's budget, they had had the advantage of 500,000l. the surplus pecuniary indemnity payable, by France. He was not able to transfer this sum longer to the credit of the country. The accounts of the manner in which it had been expended last year lie had not been able to present to parliament; but he trusted that he should be able at the commencement of the next session to show the full appropriation of it. There was, however, 110,000l. to be the commissioners for issuing Exchequer bills for public works. These sums, added of together, amounted to 4,961,000l. To complete, however, the supply for the service of the year, he proposed to contract a sinking fund loan of 7,500,000l. And here he thought it might be as well to explain why he did not intend to take a greater sum under the present circumstances. Last year 13,000,000l. had been voted from the sinking fund alone; but this year 7,500,000l. would answer his purpose. He would explain to the House how that happened. In the last year the sinking fund loan had been 13,000,000l. in the two preceding years 12,000,000l.; and now, he again repeated, he intended to reduce it to 7,500,000l. His for so doing were these. In the first place, his wish was, that the sinking fund for the present year, instead of extending from the 5th of July 1822, to the 5th of July 1823, should only extend to the 5th of April 1823. His reason for this was, that that in the next session of parliament he intended to propose to its consideration a measure for a general revision of the sinking fund. He should not therefore like to tie up the commissioners by a strict appropriation to so late a period as the 5th of July; and for that purpose he limited his sinking fund loan to 7,500,000l. If they supposed four quarters to be taken at the same general amount, it would amount to 10,000,000l.; and one reason why he did not wish it to amount to more was, that a great reduction of the nominal amount of the sinking fund would take place at the end of the session. The House, by an act of this session, had appropriated 2,800,000l. to the payment of the pensions and the half-pay, which it was very evident would have an effect upon the nominal sinking fund. By referring to the papers on the table, it would be seen that of the 7,500,000l. borrowed from the sinking fund, there was taken from the sinking-fund of Great Britain, 7,350,000l. and from that of Ireland, 1.50,000l. It was proper that he should now call the attention of the com- mittee to the terms upon which this loan had been obtained every100l. sterling, 100l. had been give in the 3 per cent reduced annuities, and 24l. 10s. 7d. in the 3 per cent consols. Comparing the prices paid in the present year with those of last year, it would be found, that 130l. three per cent stock had been given in 1821, for 100l. sterling, which had been purchased this year 124l. stock. In one point of view it was not a matter of public importance whether a loan from the sinking fund was obtained at a lower or a higher rate; but it was of material importance, with a view to the public credit of the country, to know that there was an improvement of 6 per cent. He should now proceed to state what sum would be appropriated to the real purchase of stock. It would be found from the vote come to by parliament in 1819, and confirmed by that of the present session, that a clear sinking fund of at least 5 millions should be established. The total sum that would be applicable to the purchase of stock between the 5th July 1822 and the 5th July 1823, was 5,433,855l. Last year the sinking fund, it was calculated, would amount 4,415,333l.,, including 110,820l. to be paid by the East India Company. It would therefore be seen that the sum to be applied to the reduction of debt exceeded by about 900,000l. that reckoned upon as applicable to the same purpose last year, including in both cases repayments to the Bank; and in the present year a reserve for paying the dissentient holders of 5 per cent stock. The next item was a sum of 557,000l. from the East India Company. And here it might be for the convenience of the committee that he should enter into an explanation of the state of the claims of the East India Company. It was well known that during the last two years the company had advanced considerable claims upon the government, on account of various services performed for the country, and particularly on account of the St. Helena establishment for the detention of Buonaparte. The claim originally amounted to a sum of 1,900,000l.; which, if interest were granted upon the scale usually allowed, would establish a claim on the part of the Company to 5,000,000l. To that claim, however, a variety of objections was made by the agents of government; and a settlement was afterwards, adopted, on the only principle which could be adopted between the two parties. Each of them agreed in the arithmetical accuracy of the other's account. But it appeared to the Treasury and its commissioners, that several of the claims of the Company were not justified—that some of them had been previously rejected, and that others were even then under consideration. On the other hand, a large counter-claim of the public on the Company was disputed by the Company. The House would see that the only mode of settling such a dispute between two such parties was by a compromise. Hence the discussion of the question assumed the appearance of negotiation between two independent states. On the one side was the Company consulting the interest of the proprietors: on the other, the Treasury struggling to prevent any unjust claim from being made upon the public service. The question was therefore submitted to arbitration, and it was thought better by both parties that a sum should be first fixed on by the arbitrators, and afterwards be submitted to the wisdom of parliament, than that both of them should adhere to their strict rights, on which point no tribunal could decide between them. After much consideration it was thought fair and just to both parties, to allow the Company 1,300,000l. on its claim of 5,000,000l. [Hear, hear! and laugh.] He trusted that those who had read the papers would not think the Company hardly dealt with. He verily believed that the Company was satisfied, [Hear!] and on a review of the papers he thought that parliament and the public ought to be satisfied also. After this sum was allowed to be due to the Company, the next consideration was, to what purpose it should be applied? And here it appeared to him to be most just and equitable, that it should be applied to the reduction of the loan made to the Company by government in 1812. In proof of this, he referred to the act of the 52nd Geo. 3rd, under which that loan had been made. It was afterwards agreed, that the Company, upon the payment of 557,000l. in addition to the 1,300,000l. allowed to be due to them, should be freed from any future call for the repayment of that loan. It was more convenient to the public service that this sum should be carried to the amount of the present year, than that it should be disposed of in any other manner. By that arrangement, the public would be relieved from all claim on the part of the Company, and the Company from all claim on the part of the public. Of the 557,000l. agreed to be paid in liquidation of their debt, 27,000l. had been already paid to the government, and had been applied by it to the repayment of the holders of 5 per cents, and the remaining 530,000l. was at present due from the Company to the government. Now, if to the sums he had mentioned, 2,450,000l. were added, which would be received for the commissioners for payments on account of the half pay and pensions, they would have all the Ways and Means for the year, except that portion of it that was connected with the unfunded debt. And this led him to say a few words upon that important subject. In 1821, the Exchequer bills, unfunded, amounted to 29,000,000l. the Irish Treasury bills to 1,000,000l., and the bills for public works: and churches to 368,330l., making a total of 30,368,330l. Now, turning to the actual amount of the unfunded debt of Great Britain and Ireland, he found that in the year ending the 5th of January, 1822, the Exchequer bills were 31,566,550l. and Irish Treasury bills 1,105,181l., making a total of 32,661,731l. Adding to this sum 3,100,000l., which had been voted during the year for the deficiency of the Ways and Means of the last year, and for the payment of the holders of 5 per cents, they would have a sum of about 35,000,000l. The increase of the unfunded debt in the last year would, therefore, be nominally about 5,831,670l., but in reality not much more than 1,000,000l. if it were considered that part of the above sum was expended in renewing old Exchequer bills, and in paying off holders of the 5 per cents, which was equivalent to the extinction of a certain portion of our debt. The right hon. gentleman proceeded to observe, that lie should endeavour to show the actual amount of our means to meet the expenditure. He would assume that, unless some circumstances occurred to influence them, the produce of next year would at least equal that of the present. He found, that, for one year, ending the 5th April, 1822, the produce of the Customs of Great Britain was 9,325,000l.; the Customs for Ireland 1,418,000l.; making, together, 10,743,000l. The produce of the Excise of Great Britain for one year, up to the 5th April last, was 26,195,000l.;that of Ireland 2,111,000l.; making 28,306,000l.; but, from the Ex- cise must be deducted the amount of malt duty repealed, 1,500,000l., and also the loss on the salt duty, calculated at one half year's produce, 650,000l., making, together, 2,150,000l., leaving a nett sum of 26,156,000l. The stamp duty, to the 5th April, amounted to 6.637,000l. The post-office, 1,335,000l. The assessed taxes 7,525,000l. The assessed taxes, for Ireland, 1,300,000l., making 8,835,000l., from which should be deducted 500,000l.; leaving a nett sum of 7,335,000l.; but a further sum of 100,000l. might be expected, when the receivers-general should have paid in the balances; but calculating that sum at one-half, he would take the whole sum at 7,385,000l. The miscellaneous produced for the same period 380,000l. Old stores, 151,000l.; making, together, 53,033,000l., to which should be added 1,220,000l.; being one-fourth the produce of our annual taxes and tea duties; the whole amount would then be 54,253,000l. If the returns could have been made up to the 5th instant, the progressive state of the surplus would be found much more considerable; for, although the accounts only reached to Saturday last, he had the satisfaction of stating, that a surplus appeared beyond the receipts of the whole corresponding quarter of last year of no less a sum than 622,000l. So that, should the receipt of the total revenue for the present quarter only equal that of the corresponding quarter of last year, it must be highly satisfactory to the country, if the number of reductions in taxation which had since taken place were taken into consideration.

Having stated the receipts of the year at 54,253,000l., he should now recapitulate the expenditure for the same period. The charge on the unredeemed debt of the country would be this year augmented by the grant of annuities to the amount of 2,800,000l., making a total of 30,911,000l. The interest on Exchequer bills, together with payments for services charged upon the aids of the year, but not specially voted, was about 1,500,000l. For the army 7,705,000l.; extra expense in Ireland, 220,000l.; making a total for the army of 7,925,000.; navy, 5,480,000l.; ordnance, 1,200,000l.; miscellaneous, 1,550,000l.; and under that head, extraordinaries in Ireland, 150,000l.; Greenwich Hospital out-pensioners, 310,000l.; adding these several sums to the 30,911,000l. he had already enumerated, there would appear a clear surplus of 3,130,000l. for the country; add to this the saving which he would be entitled to reckon on the 5th April, of 700,000l. in the five per cents., and 2,200,000l. in the half-pay and pension arrangement, and they would find he had a surplus of 5,000,000l. at the end of the year for a sinking fund. Perhaps the House would allow him to take a prospective view of the probable expenditure for the year 1823. Estimating the army at 7,705,000l., provided no extraordinaries were required for Ireland, the navy at 5,.500,000l., the ordnance at 1,200,000l., the miscellaneous at 160,000l. (supposing no excess under that head for Ireland), and supposing what he felt himself entitled to assume, that the receipts of the Revenue and Customs next year would equal the amount in the present, he had no doubt that the next year would afford a surplus of 6,142,000l.; so that taking the next year's surplus and the present, without any contingent prospects, they had every reasonable hope that the two years taken together would furnish a clear surplus of 10,000,000l.—He had already touched upon the reduction of the 5 per cents early in this session, and he could not refrain from taking that opportunity of congratulating the House and the country upon the satisfactory and most successful manner in which that reduction had been carried into effect. If any thing could show the solid foundation, of British credit and the extent of her resources, that plan was calculated to carry the most convincing impression in, every respect. Another arrangement had followed upon the reduction of the 5 per cents, which was also of great importance: he meant the Bank reduction of interest from 5 to 4 per cent. Now, both of these arrangements, so far from affecting the stock-holder, as was by some predicted, had actually advanced the price of the funds. It was clear, therefore, that that class of the community had no reason whatever to complain of the, relief afforded the public. He would mention a private anecdote, to show the manner in which property had already been operated upon by these arrangements. An estate had been lately sold, by order of the court of Chancery. The solicitor who had purchased it, said, he had given 5,000l. more for the estate in consequence of its increased value since the reduction of interest. Some thought it would be advisable to force down the operation of the subsisting legal interest by an act of the legislature: he thought such a mode inexpedient, fully concurring in the principle that the regulation of a particular rate of interest by law was quite contrary to the principles of political economy; but he was decidedly against any further extension of its operation beyond the necessity of the case. Having thus laid the general heads of his arrangements before the House, he should move his first resolution, for raising 7,500,000l. towards the supply of the year.

Mr. Maberley

said, that the sinking fund was put forward by the right hon. gentleman, as what he might call the hocus pocus for the year. He had taken from that fund, and added to it in such a manner, that it was impossible to make the true state of it intelligible, without a distinct discussion with regard to it. The next point was the debt of the East India Company, upon which topic he must say, that he found some difficulty in comprehending the sort of liquidation that had been made. He was sorry that it had been pressed to a settlement; for it now appeared that we were debtors to the Company: at all events we were minus, as regarded that Company, 1,300,000l. The right hon. gentleman then went to the finances of 1823, and from this part of his statement, the House had learned, that the right hon. gentleman and his colleagues had come to the end of their reductions of the public expenditure. For in his estimate of the year 1823, he took all the estimates for the present year at the same amount for the next. But he should say, that if they were to have six millions of sinking fund next year, they ought to have nine or ten millions if those reductions were made which ought to be made. The annuity plan was a complete violation of the principle of the sinking fund, by placing a certain portion of debt upon posterity to relieve the present generation. The way that he should have recommended ministers to reduce taxation, would have been, by reducing the whole expenditure of the country. The finance committee of 1817 had declared, that the charge of the army, navy, ordnance, and miscellaneous services, ought not for the future to exceed 17,350,000l. Since that year, however, these services had regularly exceeded that sum, and the total excess had been 6,190,000l. This year there was only a decrease of 800,000l. He was sure, that if the committee of 1817 could have foreseen that a reduction of 30 per cent in all articles would take place, they would have made the estimates much lower. No saving, therefore, had in fact been made on this head; as would appear by their comparing the present estimates thus reduced with the amount which the committee of finance had stated the estimates at. Government should have reformed abuses, and particularly have pruned away the excrescent abuses of the mode of collecting the revenue. To give the House an idea of this, he would state a few facts. The revenue of the Excise amounted to thirty millions, and the charge for collection was 1,420,000l. being at the rate of 4l. 19s. per cent. The Customs produced somewhat less than 13 millions, and the expense of collection, was 1,479,000l., being at the rate of 13 per cent. He begged the House to look at this remarkable difference—the lesser sum requiring the larger amount for collection. This surely demanded investigation. For the hackney-coach duties, which produced 26,000l., the expense of collection was 4,000l. The hawkers and pedlars3 duty, yielding 31,000l. cost 6,000l. to collect, being at the average rate of 22 per cent. Was it to be borne by the public, that 22l. should be paid out of every 100. before it passed into the Exchequer? In the management of what was called the hereditary revenue of' the Crown, there was a similar necessity for inquiry. Again, in the Colonies, instead of being a source of revenue to the country, they were a source of expense. The commissioner for woods and forests, and an hon. colleague of his in the ministry, were colonial ministers upon large salaries. The business of the colonies ought to be transferred to the commissariat. It might be said that the sums paid to those colonial agents did not come out of the pockets of the people; but it mattered not from whence it came; it ought not to be needlessly squandered. He next came to a dead weight. Ministers, instead of filling up all vacancies from the half-pay and pension lists, went on creating new appointments. In the lottery-office returns, there appeared under the head of first appointments, one gentleman, aged 47, who received a salary of 255l. a year; there were also many other first appointments, in one of which cases the party was 57 years of age, and in another 69. In the hackney-coach returns, there were various first appoint- ments, one of the parties being 62, and the other 70, years of age. In short, there was only one instance in the returns of a person having been appointed who previously been removed from another office. He could not avoid alluding to the Bank of Ireland; for while the chancellor was issuing Exchequer bills here, at 3l. per cent per annum, he was actually paying 5l. per cent in Ireland. The Bank of England too received 275,000l. a year from government, and had been receiving not 3 per cent but 6 per cent from government [Hear, hear!]. It appeared that there was to be no reduction in the army, navy, or ordnance. Those establishments, it seemed, were kept up at a larger expense in consequence of the ill government of Ireland. The disturbances and distresses of that country arose, first, from the mal-administration of government; and, secondly, from the number of absentees. What objection could there be to a thorough examination of the public expenditure; not by commissioners, but by suitable committees of that House? There ought to be a complete revision of the financial system of the country. He was far from drawing a gloomy view of the situation of the country. The cultivators of the soil were in a state of considerable distress, and nothing would be more grateful to them than a reduction of taxation; and, regarding the present situation of all the great interests of the country, he thought this was the best time to look into these matters. The talent, the industry, the knowledge and science of the nation were increasing, and would enable them to pay even greater than their present burthens; but that formed no justification for increasing them unfairly. He was convinced the country would go on increasing in prosperity, not in consequence of its good government, but in spite of its bad one.

Mr. Ellice

said, he wished to call the attention of the House to the result, if result it could be called, of the statements of the chancellor of the exchequer. He did not think that any gentleman would derive consolation from the determination to which government had come of keeping up the establishments of the country as they at present existed, without any reduction. The right hon. gentleman had told them, that the charge for 1824 was to be exactly the same as the charge for 1822. The second part of the result in question, was the state of the sinking fund. He had understood the right hon. gentleman to say, that we had for the present year a sinking fund of 5,000,000l., and that he hoped next year to have an equal sum applicable to the same fund, making together a clear surplus revenue, on the two years, of 10,000,000l., but he thought he should be able to show, that instead of our having in the two years a sinking fund of clear surplus revenue beyond the expenditure of 10,000,000l., we should have one, in reality, of about 2,000,000l. only. The surplus revenue was estimated by the right hon. gentleman at 5,000,000l. But of this amount, 1,830,000l. was charged on account of the transaction with the East India Company, making an addition of 70,000l. a year and upwards, for interest, on account of a burthen from which the Company had been relieved, and which was now imposed on the public. The next amount was to be paid to the commissioners for the management of the sinking fund, from the dead fund; but be confessed he did not at all understand this part of the arrangement. That amount was to be 2,400,000l. Add to this the East India charge, say 1,800,000l., and the total would be 4,200,000l. Then the right hon. gentleman admitted, that the increase of Exchequer bills was equivalent to 1,000,000l. Thus, the whole surplus, or rather more, was accounted for, and thus they would find the amount would stand in the ensuing year. An hon. friend of his had, in the beginning of the session, clearly proved that from the injudicious manner in which the sinking fund had been managed since the termination of the war, by the issue of Exchequer bills for the purchase of stock, and by the consequent raising of the market against the government, a loss of 5,000,000l. had accrued to the public. He must notice, in the next place the amount of the unfunded debt. The prices of stock, it was true, were high—from 81 to 82; and the right hon. gentleman might have good reasons or supposing that no event was likely to arise of a nature hostile to the public peace and prosperity. In this view of the case, the prices of the funds, it was most probable, would increase. But suppose hat any unforeseen accident should lower hem—what would happen then?—that hey would have been greatly raising he market against themselves, on account of buying with Exchequer bills. These gills they might be called on at some inure time to fund. This contingency had occurred once before; and why should it not occur again? The right hon. gentleman had talked a great deal about the present state of public credit. There could be no doubt that the finances of the country were in a flourishing condition. But if they really possessed the sinking fund of which the chancellor of the exchequer had spoken; it would be much better to remit taxes to the extent of such sinking fund. This would afford a sensible relief. They had already received one petition from Kent, praying for a reduction of the dividends; and although he would go along with the feelings of the House on that occasion, in reprobating such a violation of faith, as partially applied to the public creditor, and as more likely to aggravate than mitigate the evils complained of by the petitioners, he did not wonder that men who had been nearly ruined by proceedings which had so much added to the property of the public creditor should complain of the additional burthen continued upon them for a sinking fund. Let the House look back to the relative situation of the parties in 1814, or subsequently at the renewal of the war in 1815. The 3 per cents were then at 53, and gold at 5l. 8s. The 3 per cents were now upwards of 80, and gold only 3l. 17s. 10d. Nearly every shilling of funded property, which the public creditor possessed in 1814 or 1815, was now nearly doubled in value. On the other hand, every other species of property was now depreciated in about an equal proportion. The farmer's property was reduced in value, at least one-half. The public creditor's stock, on the contrary, had increased to double its former value and this, too, not in the ordinary course of things, but in consequence of the proceedings of the legislature. Really he must be of opinion, that the House ought to look into this matter with a view to reduce the national debt by some fair and equal contribution of all descriptions of property.

Mr. Ricardo

said, that the chancellor of the exchequer had held out great hopes of what was to be expected from the sinking fund, and had stated, that a mere accident only had prevented all those hopes from being realized this year, but that next year we should receive its full and effective benefits. He (Mr. R.) feared, however, that we should go on as well had done, and that some accident or other would continue to prevent us from enjoying those benefit which the chancellor of the exchequer had so flatteringly held out. If the committee took the account in the way in which the chancellor of the exchequer wished them to view it, there would appear a surplus of 5,000,000l. this year, and, that in 1824 there would be a surplus of 6,000,000l.; The right hon. member had, however, come at last to that point from which he (Mr. R.) wished to start, namely, that without a surplus of revenue over expenditure there could be no real or effective sinking fund. Now let the committee observe the manner in which the chancellor of the exchequer had made out the existence of such a surplus in the present year. He said that we had a surd plus of 4.961,000l. But, how stood the fact? Taking the total exchequer deficiency at 14,144,000l. and deducting it from 15,481,000l., the sum to meet it, there would remain only 1,400,000l. as a real and effective sinking fund this year "Oh!" said the chancellor of the exchequer, "We have by accident to pay the Bank 530,000l. this year, but next year we shall have no such incumbrance, and therefore our surplus will be complete." He wished to know by what process of calculation the chancellor of the exchequer could made out his 5,000,000l. this year? The revenue of the country was 53,037,000l, the expenditure was 51,119,000l. making a surplus of 1,965,000l.; this appeared to be the entire surplus of the year; but "No," said the chancellor of the exchequer, we have 700,000l. saved by the alteration of the five per cents.; we have also to make allowance for 2,600,000l. received." How this could be brought in under the head of surplus revenue he could not perceive. A sum of live millions might be easily made out; but would the committee call it a surplus of revenue? Then, again, the right hon. gentleman stated, that in 1821 there would be a surplus of 6,000,000l. But how was it to be obtained? It was to be obtained by taking credit for 4,875,000l. which was to be received from the trustees of half-pay and pensions. Now he would ask, whether there were no payments to be made on the other side of the account? The chancellor of the exchequer must know, that money so obtained could snot be looked upon in the light of receipts at all. The receipts in 1821 were calculated at 52,100,000l. and the expenditure at 50,600,000l. so that the real surplus on the 5th Jan. 1824, would be 1,800,000l. He agreed, with his hon. friend (Mr. Ellice) respecting the impolicy of diminishing our funded, while we increased our unfunded debt. He should recommend a diametrically opposite course of proceeding. Adverting to what had been said relative to the. Bank having reduced its rate of interest, he expressed his satisfaction at having heard the chancellor of the exchequer say, that the usury laws were unfair. There was no period at which an alteration in those absurd laws could be so properly and effectively introduced as the present, when they were, in fact, a dead letter, the market price of the loan of money being lower than the legal price. But he could not believe, that the reduction of interest made by the Bank had any general effect upon the value of money in the market, or upon the price of land, or of any commodity. If the Bank had doubled its circulation, it still would have no permanent effect upon the value of money. If such a thing had taken place, the general level of interest would be restored in less than six months. The country only required, and could only bear, a certain circulation; and when that amount of circulation was afloat, the rate of interest would find its wholesome and natural level. Undoubtedly he was very glad to hear that the Bank had at length began to discount at 4 per cent.; and he thought they should have done so long before. Had they persisted in demanding 5 per cent, they would have been without a single note to cash.

Mr. Hume

considered the nominal amount of the debt to be of much less consequence than the actual yearly annuity which the public had to pay in perpetuity. In 1815, the clear permanent charge of the funded debt was 27,638,902l. This year, he meant the gone-by year, had increased the charge to 29,800,000l. and upwards. Thus it was that we had increased our funded and lightened our unfunded debt. But the chancellor of the exchequer, instead of lessening this permanent charge, had augmented it to 30,911,000l., thereby increasing the annual charge of permanent annuity by about 1,100,000l. In this case, too, there was no reduction of funded debt. On the contrary, there was this year to be an increase of between four and five millions. As for the amount of the sinking fund, he did not know where his hon. friend (Mr. Ellice) had been able to find any fund at all.

Mr. Lushington

said, before he f had heard, the statement of his right hon. friend, he was satisfied, from his own knowledge of the public accounts, that there was what the hon. member for Portarlington described to be the only true sinking fund—a surplus of income, above all expenditure, of five millions. According to the judgment of the hon. member for Aberdeen, there was no surplus whatever; in the opinion of the hon. member for Portarlington, there was about one million surplus; but he thought he could convince him the real amount was very different, even according to the hon. member's own mode of stating it. He had stated the expenses of the army, navy, ordnance, miscellaneous, extra expense in Ireland, and Greenwich hospital, to amount to 17,815,000l. Add to this the deficiency of ways and means for 1821, 290,000l.,making together the sum of 18,105,000l. The first item of ways and means of this year for the discharge of these services, as taken by the hon. member for Portarlington, was, for annual, taxes, tea duties, &c. 4,961,000l., leaving the sum of 13,144,000l. The resources for making good this charge, were, first—The sinking fund of the year 15,481,000l., one-half year's, of interest on the five per cents 700,000l., add payments by the commissioners for half-pay pensions, 2,450,000l., making 18,631,000l., deduct from this sum the charge of 13,144,000l. leaving a surplus of 5,487,000l.The hon. member for Abingdon seemed to be dissatisfied with the settlement of the accounts between the public and the East India Company. Now what was fact? An account of 30 millions, that had not been closed for nearly 30 years, had been settled in a manner satisfactory to both parties. The result of that settlement was, the payment by the Company to the public of 530,000l., the entire extinction of all demands upon either side up to April 1822, relief to the Company from all future charge of interest for the loan of 2,500,000l.contracted in 1812, and a charge upon the consolidated fund for the future, of 70,000l. per annum. The hon. member also objected to his right hon. friend, that he had estimated the expenses of the coming year, at the same amount as the past. But this should rather be matter of congratulation than complaint; because, as his right hon. friend had estimated, the surplus of five millions in the next year with the expenditure upon the same scale as the last, it followed that, if any reductions should be found practicable, the surplus would be, to that extent, augmented. In respect to those commissions of inquiry, of which the hon. gentleman thought so lightly they had done more, in conjunction with the executive government, towards retrenching the expenditure during the last five years, than could have been accomplished by any committee of that House.

Mr. Calcraft

thought the right hon. gentleman had forgotten, in taking credit for 530,000l. to be paid by the East India Company, that, by receiving that sum, we cancelled an account of 1,800,000l., which we had against them. He had, therefore, now 1,800,000l. less in assets than at the commencement of the year. But since that Company was to pay 530,000l., that must be deducted from the 1,800,000l., leaving 1,300,000l., which we had been entitled to receive, but should be so no longer.

Mr. J. Smith

declared himself friendly to a sinking fund. When they looked at the amount of the debt due to the public creditor, they must he satisfied that a sinking fund could alone tend to its extinction. It was on this account that he had ever felt disposed to advocate the principle of keeping up the funds at the highest price. The right hon. gentleman might thus hope reasonably enough, that he should be able to reduce the interest due to the public creditor. There were two ways of effecting such a reduction of interest. One of them he should denominate as fraudulent and scandalous, as one which would involve the country in ruin, overthrow all the institutions of the country, and prove effectually destructive to the landed interest. The second, and the more equitable mode, was, to raise the price of stock so high that the individual creditor should be contented to take a smaller interest on his debt than he had received before. If government performed its promise on the subject of economy, he was not without hope that the 4 per cent stock might be reduced to a lower rate of interest, and perhaps the 3½ per cent. stock reduced to three. With regard to the present distresses of the country, he saw no reason to suppose that they would be permanent: he had never known any article at an extremely low price that did not afterwards become excessively dear; and it might be the case with wheat. The disease carried its own eremedy,—cruel, he admitted, but effectual; for the ruin of the small farmers would occasion the growth of less grain, and a consequent rise what was produced.

Mr. Brougham

said, that if; instead of dealing in fulsome panegyrics on his colleagues, the hon. secretary to the Treasury had come at once to the pinching view of the subject taken by the hon. member for Abingdon, he would have rendered more service to his colleagues than he had clone by the eulogiums which he had thought fit to pronounce upon them. What had these admirable ministers accomplished by all their unheard-of labours? The finance committee of 1817 had estimated the expense of the establishments of that year at 17,550,000l.; exclusive of the charge for collecting the revenue, or with that expense 25,100,000l. By that standard were to be tried these heaven-inspired ministers. Their estimate for last year was nearly 26,600,000l.; and upon their own showing, the establishment this year would amount to 24,250,000l. or only 850,000l. below the calculation of 1817. Let it be observed, also, that the committee of 1817 did not mean to limit the reductions to the estimates of that day. They thought it very well to begin with; but they entertained and promulgated the idea of pushing the reduction of expenditure much farther. Since that period the House knew that every article of subsistence had been reduced 25, perhaps he should speak with greater truth if he said 50 per cent. The operation on the currency—an operation not contemplated by the committee of 1817—had made an alteration of 25 per cent. The expenditure, instead of being but three quarters of a million less than it was in 1817, ought in point of fact, to be at the very least 5,000,000l. less than it was in 1817. The charge for the collection of the revenue in 1817 was 7,750,000l.;it was reduced for the present year by a sum of 50,000l., the amount for collecting being 7,700,000l. With respect to the East India Company, he would not stop to observe on the compromise with that Company further than this, that if any man in private life had made a certain demand, and afterwards consented to take one-third less than his demand, such conduct would expose him to well-merited censure. Much had been said with re- spect to the public credit. There was, in his opinion, but one way to support that credit, namely—by following a rigid system of economy—nay, of parsimony, in the expenditure of the public money.

The first resolution was agreed to. On the second being put,

Mr. Grenfell

begged to put a question regarding the Austrian loan, from which he was sorry to see no sum carried to the credit of the year. Last session the noble marquis had held out a hope that something might be obtained; and, certainly, when the debt was contracted, more solemn assurances of good faith could not have been given. In the whole, reckoning principal and interest, it was, he believed, 17 millions. He apprehended that some bonds were given at the time of the loan, and there seemed no reason why they should not be put up to auction: no doubt speculators would give something for them, and however little, it might be applied to: the public service.

The Marquis of Londonderry

said, that a negotiation was still in progress. From the state of the Austrian finances a moderate compromise only could be expected. It would be too much for him to give any assurance that some arrangement might possibly be made, but still he was not absolutely without hopes upon the subject.

On the resolution respecting a lottery,

Mr. J. Martin

declared be would take the sense of the committee upon it.

Mr. Hume

observed, that the chancellor of the exchequer had hinted that he would give it up, if some other tax were substituted. As the wishes of the country had been so often expressed against lotteries, he thought 200,000l. should be spared out of the surplus revenue of which the right hon. gentleman had spoken.

Mr. W. Smith

was of opinion, that if lotteries were continued, one commissioner only was necessary. All of them had not been able to prevent their secretary from appearing on the list of public defaulters.

The committee then divided: For the resolution, 74; Against it, 34. The other resolutions were agreed to.

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