HC Deb 01 April 1822 vol 6 cc1430-2

The House resolved itself into a committee of supply. On the resolution, "That 40,000l. be granted, for his majesty's foreign and other secret services, for the year 1822,"

Mr. Hume

wished to know why the sum was so large in time of peace? He could not see for what purpose this large sum was wanted; certainly it could be for no good purpose. It was giving ministers the means of doing harm. If the money was properly disposed of, they would not be afraid to let the public know how it was applied. He believed the vote was but 15 or 20,000l. before the late war.

The Marquis of Londonderry

said, if the hon. member wished to know the amount expended under this head n former years, he might have an account of the expenditure in each year for the last eleven years; but if he wished to know the particular details of how it was expended, it was rather an Irish proposition, for it would then be secret service money no longer. The hon. member would find that Mr. Burke had not dissented from the principle of the grant for secret services, bur, on the contrary, had admitted it to be necessary for carrying on the government. With respect to the present grant, he could state, that the greater part he believed 24,000l., arose out of the late war, and was not referable to a state of peace.

Mr. Hume

did not deny the principle of secret service money, but was anxious to know what quantum of the present grant was given to particular persons. The noble lord had last year stated, that the expence of a part of the proceedings against her late majesty, namely the Milan commission, was defrayed out of the secret service money. This appeared to be an application of the fund which never could have been contemplated by parliament.

The Marquis of Londonderry

said the principle of the expenditure was in cases where the honour and interest of the country were concerned, and in the case mentioned it would not be contended that the honour of the country was not concerned. Parliament had so considered it last year; but when it ceased to be a secret service the money required was openly paid to the solicitor employed.

Mr. Hobhouse

said, that the secret service money voted last year was 25,000l.; this year it was 40,000l.; and yet, last year, the expence of the Milan commission had been defrayed out of the fund. He was at a loss to understand why, when the country was at peace, so large an expence was necessary. If the name and the power of this country were not sufficient to maintain her influence at foreign courts, the underhand application of bribery could not be of much avail. As to the authority of Mr. Burke, he could quote sentiments from that writer in support of every line of policy, however contradictory.

The Marquis of Londonderry

said, it was not to be supposed that precisely the same sum would every year be necessary for this service. The hon. member was not justified in using the term bribery, as applicable to the present question.

Mr. Hobhouse

did not mean to impute bribery in the grossest sense of the word; but the noble marquis was too well acquainted with foreign courts not to know that if he wished to preserve a particular influence, we must fight with silver spears.

Mr. Arbuthnot

said, that a smaller sum had last year been voted, because a considerable portion of the grant of the preceeding year remained unexpended.

The resolution was then agreed to.

On the resolution, "That 78,794l. be granted for Contingent Expences and Messengers Bills in the Departments of the Treasury, three Secretaries of State, Privy Council, and lord Chamberlain, for the year 1822,"

Mr. Hume

objected to the enormous proportion of charge, under the head of the foreign secretary of state's department amounting alone to 30.000l. Some explanation ought to be given of the manner in which this charge had accrued: nor did he see any thing to warrant the charge under the head of the lord chamberlain's department.

The Marquis of Londonderry

said, that the charge in the foreign secretaries de- partment arose out of the extensive correspondence which it was compelled to carry on. The fact was, that though the hon. gentleman opposite contended that we possessed so little influence on, the continent, no political business of importance was transacted in any European court, without the government of this country being communicated with.

Mr. G. Bennet

moved to reduce this sum of 10,000l. He felt the less hesitation in proposing this amendment, because a great part of the vote was not for the compensatien of services already performed, but an estimate of expenses to he hereafter incurred.

The committee divided: For the Amendment 19. Against it 67.

List of the Minority.
Barrett, S. M. Martin, J.
Bernal, R. Maule, hon. W.
Bright, H. Palmer, C. F.
Calvert, N. Robarts, A.
Colburne, C. Robarts, col.
Hobhouse, J. C. Robinson, sir G.
Hume, J. Smith, W.
James, W. Whitbread, S.
Lushington, Dr. TELLER.
Moore, P. Bennet, hon. H. G.
Monck, J. B.

The resolution was agreed to, and the House resumed.