APPROPRIATION BILL. (Hansard, 29 June 1821)

§ Mr. Hume

said, that the Bill contained matter which afforded ample ground for 1456 discussion: it indeed opened every vote which had been passed by the House, and we might now reduce or reject, if it should be thought proper, any sum in any of the estimates. He claimed that course as a right for him to follow if he chose; but as several of his friends, who had intended to take a part in the debate which was expected to arise on this Bill, had been obliged to leave town, he, after the lengthened observations he had been obliged to make in detail on the principal items in the estimates, did not now intend to oppose the bill in its progress, further than to remark on one or two items which had not been noticed as he had intended. He wished the attention of the House to be called to the charge of agency for the payment of half-pay of foreign officers, a most irregular and improper charge. The noble lord had appointed an agent with an allowance of 3½ per cent for 1817, 8, and 9, and of 2½ or of 6d in the pound for the disbursement of that pay in 1820 and 21, being a charge of three times more than was paid for artillery half-pay, and three times more than ought to be expended for that purpose. By the return in his hand, the sum of 17,662l. had been paid for agency on about 126,000l. for the last five years, being at the rate of 3,532l. a year, a charge from which the country ought to be relieved. He considered this a gross waste, and that the pay should be disbursed, as other half-pay was, by the paymaster-general, or by the War-office, if the noble lord's superintendence was necessary. Mr. Disney, the agent, was rendered a public accountant, and allowed to hold large balances in his hands, contrary to the meaning, if not to the letter, of the Pay-office act, which orders all money to be kept in the Bank of England: a double advantage was thus given to the agent against the public, which he (Mr. H.) considered highly improper. He hoped this would be saved.

By the way in which the charge for recruiting was included in the contingent charges with the pay for the troops, he had not at the hour of midnight when that vote passed, had an opportunity of stating his objections to this expense. It was an enormous charge in time of peace; the establishments were all extravagant, and ought to be put down. The charge this year amounted to 73,398l. which required reduction. As members had pledged themselves to pursue a system of economy, and to reduce the number of the army, he 1457 hoped they would put an immediate, stop to recruiting and show their willingness to act upon that declaration. He was prepared to show, if time had admitted, gross abuse in the recruiting system. It was scarcely possible to conceive that a staff of 497 officers and men should be kept up for the purpose of recruiting in time of peace, at an expense of 73,398l. a year, and particularly when orders would be given to reduce the army. If reference was made to the establishments in six districts, having six inspecting field-officers, six adjutants, six pay-masters, with ten clerks, fifty-five Serjeants, an officer in London, at 1,424l., the same in Edinborough the whole for Great Britain was an expense of 40,677l. The charge for recruiting for the troops in the service of the East-India Company ought certainly to be paid by that company, and 23,211l. saved to the country. Until lately, or perhaps at the present moment, an establishment had been kept up at Heligoland at considerable expense, to enlist foreign recruits, without the knowledge of parliament, and contrary to law; as long as such proceedings were allowed to go on, it was useless to talk of economy. So late as the 9th of April last the Zephyr transport was sent by the navy-board to that island to bring 100 or more foreign recruits to England. He submitted whether such proceedings ought to go on any longer? The charge for the depots of troops at the Isle of Wight, Maidstone, and Chatham must be revised: that at Maidstone was very objectionable, and, he believed, unnecessary, kept up, as he understood, to give a command to the general officer now there. Could it be necessary to keep up wooden barracks at Maidstone at a great expense for repairs and separate staff, when there were at Chatham and other places excellent brick barracks remaining empty, and kept up at little expense? He could only call it a job. The establishment of Albany barracks had an extravagant staff, with floating craft, &c. quite uncalled for, at the present time. He hoped that these dép73x00F4;ts would be much reduced before next year.

With regard td the number of the Army, he thought the noble marquis must consent to a large reduction. He would never again be able to pass his estimates for more than 60,000 men; he had better, therefore, come forward with a good grace, and make the necessary reduction, before he was compelled, for compelled he would 1458 soon be, in spite of all his objections.—The next subject worthy of attention was, the great expense of the establishments of Chelsea and Kilmainham Hospitals, which, He was confident, might be consolidated with great saving and advantage. He thought that all the military establishments now in Ireland ought to be placed directly under those in London, and much of the jobbing and waste which took place in that country be prevented. He had now done with the army.—Having at different times brought every department before the House, and pointed out where very great reductions might be made, it was for them to enforce them. He begged now to make a few remarks on the Navy, and first with respect to the dock-yards. Ministers must be aware that great dissatisfaction existed in the minds of all who witnessed the shameful waste of public money in these places. Immense sums were paid to the officers who received salaries, whilst the pay of the workmen was reduced. The clerks and officers received the same pay and allowances now as they did during the war; they received more, indeed, as the income tax of ten per cent was deducted from them then, and not now. They had in war to superintend the work at double tides, early and late; now the work went on only for six, or eight hours in the day. Was it just that, with the present prices of provisions compared with 1813, they should continue to receive the same allowances, whilst the workmen were all reduced? He thought the government should purchase no more, foreign oak: large purchases had been made from the Austrians at high prices. We had plenty of navy timber in England, better than any that could be got from the Adriatic, and money should net be spent in that manner abroad. One item more arid he should have done with the navy,—it was the keeping up an admiral at Portsmouth and Plymouth at an expense of near 4,000l. at each place. It was proper in time of war, when the number of ships at each of these places was great; but at present, when there were only three ships or so under each station, he considered the large establishment of secretaries, table allowance, &c. too high. In 1792, he understood a rear-admiral commanded each of these stations, at an expense not exceeding 1,476l. a year, whilst an admiral's staff amounted to 3,786l. By returning to the practice of 1792, there would be a saying of 4,191l, without any Injury to the ser- 1459 vice. With respect to the Ordnance, he trusted that the hon. member (Mr. Ward) would take into serious consideration the various reductions he (Mr. H) had recommended in that department, and that they would be carried into effect before next year. The Westminster and Tower establishment, ought to be immediately incorporated with great saving. He had formerly pointed out unnecessary establishments and expense to the amount of 216,000l.; but on more particular examination, he was convinced that upwards of 400,000l. could, with due attention to the public service be saved to the public.

He had now, he believed, adverted to all the points which required his notice. Those individuals who had, unfortunately for them, been exposed to his observations, might be assured that no offence was meant to any of them, and that to most of them, indeed, he was an entire stranger; but that he had been obliged, in the course of his public duty, to bring forward individual cases to support the statements he had made. He should indeed be sorry to offend any public officer. With respect to those hon. members who Lad submitted the different estimates to the House, he was sorry to have occasioned them so much trouble; but in no case had he done so without his having in view the public interests; and he hoped that the estimates of next year would render such a course again unnecessary. It was matter of regret to him, that he had not had time to consider the hon. member's (Mr. Bankes) address to his majesty, which he had made the amendment to his motion on a former evening. As upon consideration, taking it as a whole, he might have adopted it instead of his own. It was more likely to be binding upon his majesty's ministers, which was important, and it might have had a better appearance to the country if the House had agreed unanimously to a revision of all the departments, and a reduction of the army with the intention of lessening the expense of the country. He hoped that as the noble marquis had employed his hon. friend (Mr. Bankes) to propose the address to which he alluded, he would in future become a zealous supporter of economy and retrenchment, and that a reduction of expenditure, real and efficient, would speedily be effected. That reduction would not, he hoped, be effected at the expense of those individuals, whose income, even now, were scarcely suffi- 1460 cient to support them—he meant the junior clerks, and those who actually did the work, as they were entitled to be well paid. The reduction which the country would alone view with satisfaction, must be the reduction of the salaries of all the great officers, beginning with his majesty, the highest in the state [Hear!]. He would now remind the noble marquis, that when he (Mr. H.) first opposed the large military establishments, a gallant officer (general Vivian) stated to the House, that if he persisted in the course he had begun, he would prove "a dangerous or a mischievous man." Upon that occasion, he (Mr. H.) replied, that he trusted he should, before he had done, prove one of the best friends of the noble marquis and his colleagues. He thought he had kept his word. He had convinced them, that the best way to obtain the confidence of the nation, was to show that they were really and sincerely determined to reduce the expenditure of the government to the lowest possible scale, consistent with the safety of the country. He did not see the gallant officer to ask him what he now thought of his conduct; but he hoped the noble marquis and his colleagues were convinced that he had been their very best friend [Hear, hear!].