IRISH REVENUE INQUIRY BILL. (Hansard, 26 June 1821)

§ Mr. Denman
said, he had an objection on principle to putting members of that House on commissions, particularly when there was to be a salary or remuneration. It was desirable that members should hold no office under the Crown, and it was so laid down in the act of settlement and several others, but particularly the 6th of Anne. The provision of this act was extended by 1 Geo. 1st, and 25 Geo. 2nd. His lion, friend (Mr. F. Lewis) had spoken in strong terms against the supposition that such an appointment could have the effect of influencing his vote on a particular question; but that observation would go to repeal all those acts, The gentlemen opposite were equally justified, and were bound indeed in theory, to make the same assertion, and to state that they sat there not as officers of the Crown, but as members of parliament. If true at all, it must be taken as true to its fullest extent. A different principle had, however, been avowed in the debate, on the member for Shrewsbury (Mr. Bennet's) motion. It was then stated on the opposite side of the House, that if persons under government did not give their votes in its support, the government could not be carried on. It was this dead weight of influence which tended to corrupt the House, degrade its character^ and deprive it of moral authority with the nation. It was but a hollow support which government received from those who derived an income under the administration, while the people were dissatisfied, and parliament failed of making its due impression on the public mind; There were not four divisions during the session, in which the number of the majority had equalled the number of placemen in the House. The 71 gentlemen who held places were vigilant pairers off, and therefore their power in the House was felt on every question of public importance. The general principle for which he contended was against the increase of members holding offices; and the question was, whether there ought to be a departure from that principle in the present instance? His hon. friend had on the former night expressed himself very emphatically on this pointy and had said, he hoped the earth would open and 1315 swallow him, if his vote should be influenced by his appointment. He had no doubt this asseveration was sincerely made; but he could not help its reminding him of the classical passage, "Tellus prius ad ima dehiscat;" yet the lady who said that, was married or worse, in not many hours after that vow had passed her lips. The hon. and learned member then proceeded to corroborate his opinion as to the unconstitutional principle of the bill, by a reference to a series of statutes, and concluded with moving, to leave out the words "Thomas Frankland Lewis, esq."

The Chancellor of the Exchequer
said, that in the present instance the commissioners were not appointed by the Crown, nor did they look to the Crown for their reward. As to the hon. gentleman to whom the motion applied, he was eminently qualified for the situation, and his acceptance of it was a favour conferred on the public.

Mr. Hobhouse
supported the amendment. He stated one ground of objection that had not been remarked on before namely, that as the commission was to be hereafter examined by the House, if members were upon that commission, they would, contrary to the spirit of British law, be parties and judges in the cause. With respect to influence, it was an insult on common sense to say it could be resisted by those who enjoyed the sweets of office; such could not be the case until the gentlemen opposite could alter human nature. No one could doubt the infringement of the principle of law, in the case of the hon. member under discussion.

§ Mr. J. Smyth
thought that the difficulties attending the collection of the revenue in Ireland for centuries, made it very desirable to have members on the commission of such qualifications and character as the hon. member alluded to.

Mr. S. Rice
was willing that, in this instance, the general principle, which directed that members of parliament should not hold their seat, together with offices of emolument, should be departed from. The revenue department of Ireland was said to be an Augean stable. This was not a charge against Ireland, but against the misgovernment of England. The commissioners were going over, not to wage war on clerks, or on obscure individuals but, to attack the magnates of the land the great powers and constituted 1316 authorities on that side of the channel. He hoped that the system of economy which they would introduce would amply compensate for the temporary violation of a principle to which he was thus ready to accede.

§ Mr. Scarlett
said, the question was, whether that House would appoint one of its own members to a situation, to which a provision would be attached, either now or hereafter? He thought the House would stand much higher in the estimation of the country, if they did not give the public money to their own members.