HC Deb 03 July 1821 vol 5 cc1501-4

On the order of the day for the third reading of this bill,

Mr. Creevey

said, that as this bill went to appropriate all the money voted during the session, he would take the present opportunity of making a few observations on the business which had occurred in that House since they last commenced their sittings. He wished to express the satisfaction he felt on account of the late unanimous vote in favour of retrenchment. His hon. friend, the member for Aberdeen, had been repeatedly taunted by ministers, in consequence of his exertions; but they had at last been compelled to agree to a resolution, which would, he hoped, be followed up. This advantage had been gained by adhering to the forms of the House, and by pursuing the path marked out by past experience. At the commencement of the session, he had said that committees of supply had, for a long time, been a mere farce, but that they should no longer continue so. His assertion had been verified. The subject of the supplies had been so fully discussed, that the great body of the people of England were acquainted with them, and a pledge of pursuing a system of economical reform in the next session, had been obtained from ministers. This question of economical reform was nearly allied to political reform; because, when it was properly pursued, it brought them to the strong holds of corruption, that great enemy of property, of liberty, and of law. He differed from his noble friend (the marquis of Tavistock), when he asserted, that the exertions of the hon. member for Aberdeen had effected nothing. He agreed with his noble friend, that the power of the Crown had greatly increased in that House; but still he was of opinion that the freedom of speech which they enjoyed, and the publicity which was given to their debates, were advantages of the highest importance; and from these, if from any causes, they might look forward to economical reform in the next session. The House was, he thought, in progress to do a great dear of good. What had occurred was a sort of trial of the machinery of parliament, at it was found to work admirably well. It was very true that upon many occasions not more than a hundred persons voted on the subjects introduced by the hon. member for Aberdeen; but it was a matter of great congratulation, to find those subjects, which were formerly so much neglected, attracting the serious attention of such men as the member for Yorkshire, and the member for Blechingley (lord Milton and the marquis of Titch-field.) The hon. gentleman then adverted to what had been done in consequence of the exertions of the hon. member for Aberdeen, with respect to the receivers-general of the land-tax; and expressed a hope that government would pursue a similar course with reference to the department of stamps. He alluded also to the motion he had made on the 4½ per cent duties. That fund would, he trusted, be placed at the disposal of government at no distant period, as part of the revenue of the country, instead of being dealt out in pensions to the gentlemen and ladies who at present monopolized it. He conceived, notwithstanding the fate of the motion which had been introduced by the hon. member for Shrewsbury, that a place bill ought to be carried into effect. It was absolutely necessary for the due protection of the constitution. The Grampound bill gave him much satisfaction. It was a measure most favourable to the people of England, since it recognized the principle that population and property had a claim to representation. The hon. member concluded by expressing his regret that the bill of his hon. friend (Mr. M. A. Taylor) for the better administration of justice in the court of chancery, had not been agreed to. Every body acquainted with the proceedings of the court must feel the necessity of such a measure.

The Marquis of Londonderry

rejoiced to observe the good humour which now, prevailed on the other side of the House; but to which the gentlemen opposite appeared, at times, to be entirely strangers. He trusted, that in the next session of parliament they would be equally pleasant. They appeared to have receded his a considerable degree from that, political and constitutional Utopia which they had originally set up. The hon. gentleman had given a very proper rebuke to the noble member for Bedfordshire, who despaired of any good being effected by that House. The hon. member had, however, his gloomy moments, as well as the noble, lord. He seemed to think that a place bill was necessary to preserve the purity of parliament; and yet, the hon. member admitted, that parliament, as now constituted, was fit for all useful and practicable purposes. The hon. member seemed to have arrived at a sort of candid state of mind; and he would certainly appeal to him whenever he wanted a historiographer of the by-gone session. He had given great credit to the hon. member for Aberdeen, on account of the reform which had taken place with respect to receivers-general of the land-tax; but he must here put in a little caveat, because this reform was determined on by ministers before the hon. member for Aberdeen submitted his motion to the House. With respect to the question of stamps, he hoped the hon. member would view the conduct of ministers on that subject with the same satisfaction with which he looked at their proceedings towards the receiver-general of the land-tax. The hon. gentleman had now found out that the two addresses to the Crown, which had been proposed on a former night, were nearly equal in their object; but he did not go so far as the hon. member for Aberdeen, who, after due reflection, had discovered that the address supported by ministers was much better than his own. [A laugh.] It appeared from this circumstance, that the two sides of the House were at length coming to a good understanding. The hon. member had, however, complained on various occasions, that, notwithstanding his efforts and those of his friends, not a shilling of expense had been saved to the country. His consolation, under all his defeats, had been, that a great deal would be effected in the next session. He could assure the hon. member, that ministers felt a most anxious desire to reduce the public expenditure as much as they possibly could; and if the hon. member and his friends came to the discussion next session with the same temper which they had displayed that evening, it would certainly turn out a far more agreeable session than he had found the present to be.

Mr. Brougham

said, it must give great satisfaction to the House to learn, that the reform in the department of the receivers-general of the land-tax had been determined on by ministers before the hon. member for Aberdeen had introduced his motion. It would have been well, however, if the noble lord had taken the present opportunity to state what other retrenchments he and his colleagues had in store. He ought to give to the historiographer the materials by which he could prove to future ages who was the great author of economical reform in the present day. The repeal of the agricultural horse-tax was the only point of moment which his hon. friend had omitted to notice. He was rejoiced at the abandonment of that tax, which produced 470,000l. a year, because it was not to be supplied by other taxes, but must be met by economy and retrenchment. [Hear!]

The bill was then passed.

The Marquis of Londonderry,

in rising to move that the House adjourn till Tuesday next, begged to observe, what it might be agreeable for their constituents to know, viz. that upon an average the House had sat eight hours and forty minutes daily, for every sitting day throughout the session. This was exclusive of the business done in the morning in the committees. So that whatever might be the opinion of hon. members opposite, or of persons out of doors, it was plain, that if the House of Commons did no good, it was not for want of labour.