HC Deb 26 May 1820 vol 1 cc612-26
Lord Milton,

on rising to submit the motion of which he had given notice, said he felt the difficulty as well as the importance of the duty he had undertaken, from the particular relation in which he stood to the petitioners, and from the great interest which a large body of his constituents had at stake. He might, however, say, with truth, that he was not swayed by the opinion of his constituents, for, whatever had been their sentiments, he should have entertained the same opinions that he now held. Those opinions were not new or speculative, but were founded on principles that appeared to be as immutable as truth itself. It had invariably been our policy to import the raw material of our manufactures at as cheap a price as possible; for he would not admit, that in particular instances, such as in the importation of cotton wool or raw silk, a contrary principle had been acted on: and if, as in the case of cotton a different policy had been pursued, it was only where the particular article of trade could bear an increase of price. It was during the last session, that that principle had, for the first time, with respect to the importation of wool, been departed from; and here he would observe, that there was considerable difficulty in dealing with the question, on account of the different appearances which it assumed; it was a sort of Proteus that changed its face as arguments were addressed to it. He did not mean to say that it had been so stated in that House; but he had seen many persons to whom it had been represented as a measure intended for very different and very opposite purposes; for to some it had been represented as a duty imposed merely for the purpose of assisting the revenue, and to others as a protection to the agriculturists. Now, it was impossible that it could be viewed in both these lights. As a measure of revenue it must necessarily be ineffectual, because at the time this duty was laid on, a greater revenue was derived from the importation of wool than had since been produced. Those who supported the tax might say, that it had not yet had time to be productive; but still the returns showed that the importation had been so much reduced that the revenue lost considerably. It appeared from the Custom-house returns on the table, that during the eight months previous to the operation of this tax, 11,000,000 lbs. had been imported at the old duty, and, that, during the next four months only 230,000 lbs. had been imported at the new duty: and this document clearly proved that the importer of the raw material was unable to support the duty imposed. He knew it would be said, that this reduction was owing to the great quantity of wool in the country before the tax was imposed; and those who used this argument, would refer to the great importations made in 1818. He was aware that in that year twenty-four or twenty-five millions of pounds of wool had been brought into the country; but that was, at a period when the expectations of the importer were encouraged by the manufacturer, and when there was likely to be a great demand for the raw material. Now, however, instead of an increase of the manufacture, there was a great diminution in every part of the kingdom, and consequently no encouragement to the importer. But it did so happen, that there was only one part of the kingdom, the West Riding of Yorkshire, where the state of the woollen manufacture could be accurately known; and the account of the quantity of cloth milled in that district, proved this at least, that the state of the manufacture was such that it was madness on the part of the legislature to attempt increasing the revenue by such a duty as this. By this account it appeared, that during the last year only, 7,000,000 yards of cloth had been milled; and, on comparing this quantity with that of former years, he was obliged to go so far back as to the year 1794, before he could find so small a quantity. When the increased population of the country must have increased the demand at home for these articles, he nevertheless found, that the present demand was less than it had been in any of the last twenty-five years. That could not be merely owing to the distressed state of this country, but must be ascribed, in a great measure, to the falling off of our foreign trade. On the subject of foreign trade he might entertain opinions which some persons would, perhaps, consider singular: his opinion was diametrically opposed to that of those who contended that the more you export and the less you import the richer you must be. It was not his intention to enter into that question at present; but he thought that we could not deal with other parts of the world but on terms of reciprocal advantage, and that we could not export our manufactures to other countries without importing their commodities in the same proportion. The documents of the Custom-house could not show whether the country was in a prosperous, or in an adverse situation; and too much stress he apprehended was laid on them both by ministers and others. They could not overcome the evidence of people's senses, which was the best proof of prosperity or adversity. In a country like this, when the great and opulent were not satisfied with even all the luxuries of the world, there must be an import trade, and in return for these commodities there must be other articles exported. If we imported sugar from the West Indies, and tea from the East Indies, we must export our manufactures in return. It would not do to export raw produce. Let the House look at Poland, the greatest exporter of grain. Would they wish this country to be reduced to the exporting poverty of Poland? In the same manner in the exportation of timber from Prussia and North America, they had additional proofs of the poverty which the exporting of raw materials always indicated. If they traced the progress of states, they would find that a retrogradation of prosperity had always led back from manufacturing to agricultural and pastoral labours. This country had. an immense load of debt, whether incurred justly or not he would not inquire; and with that debt it could not afford to be poor. If we wished to bear it, as honest men should bear their debts, we must go on increasing; in wealth. The increase of wealth was nothing but the increase of the productions of the earth; and, as it was the industry and labour of man that called these productions forth, the greater the industry that was bestowed on them, the more valuable they became. Now, he would ask, if it could be the interest of this country, to check the importation of those raw materials on which, by the ingenuity and industry of man, so great an additional value might be conferred? He believed the value of wool imported into this country was doubled by being manufactured into cloth—[cries, "More, more"]; indeed, on recollection, he believed it was in some cases quadrupled, and even quintupled. Thus, the finest wool imported cost 6s., and the finest manufactured cloth exported from this country was sold for 35s. He did not mean to say that in this case the value of the wool was multiplied by 5, because there were other articles employed in the process of manufacturing the cloth; but, the instance he had given showed at least that in the manufactured state its value was more than doubled. In the account of the examination which took place last winter before the privy-council, he found it stated by one of the persons examined, that in the American market our cloth manufactures had an advantage of 7½ per cent over those of French and Flemish manufacture; that was, when French and Flemish cloth was sold at 100, English cloth of the same quality could be sold at 92 or 93. Now, if to this price the new duty were added, it would make English cloth rise to 97 or 98; and this, he thought, was running a race with France and Flanders, and incurring a risk of losing the American market, which, on every principle of policy and prudence, ought to be avoided. By this course we were running the risk of losing America, with whom, of all countries in the world, it was most important that we should maintain connexion. Franklin had told America, and told her truly, that she ought not to think of manufactures for a century to come; and yet we were driving a rising country, and an increasing population, either to manufacture for themselves, or to purchase their goods from the manufacturers of the continent. But it was not in America only that we should find ourselves pressed by the continental manufactures; that opposition would meet us in every quarter of the world. England had enjoyed a monopoly of commerce during the war; but it was not to be supposed that she could rest upon her oars, and enjoy the same monopoly during peace. The face of affairs was changed—changed, not as had been said by some gentlemen, by our transition from a state of war to a state of peace, but changed as regarded our sole command of that element, upon the bosom of which our commerce was carried on. Let not the landed gentlemen suppose—let them not hope—that they could ameliorate the condition of their tenants, by the simple expedient of a tax upon foreign wool. The wool produced in England did not amount to a fifteenth part of the general produce of the country; and it was ridiculous to suppose, that by increasing the value of a fifteenth of our produce, any material effect could be produced as to the whole: the very idea was as foolish as that which had occurred to several gentlemen whom he admired and esteemed; and which had tempted them to introduce a foreign breed of sheep into the country, with a view of raising, within ourselves that finer wool which we were now obliged to purchase from bur neighbours. To him it appeared that nature; up to a certain point, had indicated by her own acts the peculiar species of animals, as well as vegetables, properly adapted to particular climates; and that he who attempted to introduce into England the finer wools of Saxony or Spain, would be as much disappointed in the result of his endeavours, as the man who should carry to the torrid zone the long-fleeced sheep peculiar to England. He had not, his lordship continued, countenanced the signing of petitions upon the subject; he had found it impossible to prevent petitions from being drawn up; but he felt that he should have acted dishonestly towards the suffering classes, if he had even held out an idea that the abolition of this tax would restore to them a trade which had been lost to them by causes entirely unconnected with it. All he intended—all he had said—was, that when a manufacture was of itself declining, that measure was impolitic which should cause it to decline still farther. It was impossible to look at the situation of the manufacturers in the county which he represented, without feelings of the most agonizing description. In the name of prudence, as well as in the name of common feeling, he called upon the House to repeal a duty which distressed the manufacturer without assisting the agriculturist; and which, so far from increasing or aiding the revenue, went to destroy those sources from which the revenue ought to be derived. The noble lord then moved, "That leave be given to bring in a Bill to repeal the Tax on Foreign Wool."

Mr. Wilson

seconded the motion, and said, that it was necessary that a great manufacturing country should depend upon its exports, to enable it to indulge in the luxuries which were obtained from foreign countries. It appeared to be the general feeling of the House, that a more liberal system of commercial policy should be pursued, and in that feeling he was happy to find that the president of the board of trade participated. If taxes were levied upon articles which were not taxed before the war, they would operate as a premium or bonus to foreign manufactures. The tax would press most severely upon the coarser manufactures; and it was quite clear that in articles of this description, such as the Yorkshire cloths, which fetched from 2s. 6d. to 3s. 6d. a yard, no degree of ingenuity would enable the manufacturer to compete with foreigners, when he had to pay an additional duty of 6d. a lb., from which the foreign manufacturer was wholly exempt. With respect to the increase of value, upon which the noble lord had made some observations, it was to be recollected, that a considerable proportion of the raw material was brought from Smyrna and the Cape of Good Hope. When, therefore, the freightage to the ship-owner, the expenses of carriage, and other circumstances were taken into calculation, it could not be doubted that the original cost of the article was increased tenfold. As to the effect of the tax upon the interests of agriculturists, it was uniformly observed that the poor's rates pressed most heavily upon agriculturists, when the manufactures of the country were in a state of depression. It was the interest, therefore, of agriculturists to oppose a tax which was calculated to throw a number of manufacturers out of employment, and consequently to increase the burthen of the poor's rates. Ministers would do well to repeal the additional duty, which had added nothing to the revenue, and which, even if it had better answered their expectations, it would be a wiser course to give up, than, by retaining it, to create distress and increase the burthen of the poor's rates.

Mr. Western

thought that the hon. member who spoke last had taken rather too much for granted. If he believed that the tax would prevent the manufacturer from going freely into foreign markets, he should concur with that hon. member in his disapprobation of it. It should not be forgotten, however, that one of the first effects of this duty had been to induce Spain to take off part of her export duty. It was a curious circumstance, that during a period of the most extensive exportation of coarse woollen manufactures, not more than half the quantity of foreign wool had found its way into this country, which came into it at present. In the year 1790, not more than 3,000,000 lbs. of wool had been imported. The annual importation during the last five or six years had been 17,000,000 lbs. Was it not probable, that in proportion to the ease with which foreign wool was obtained, the growth of our native wool would be discouraged? It had been said by the noble lord that this could not at once be a measure of revenue, and protection. It might answer both those purposes. It might prevent the inundation of foreign wool, without amounting absolutely to a prohibition. It had been said, and with truth, that within the last four months, little or no wool had been imported; but it should not be forgotten, that heavy importations took place just before that time, with a view to avoid the payment of the additional duty; and besides, the importation of the preceding year had amounted to 26,000,000 of pounds. The noble lord had adverted to the introduction of the growth of fine wool in this country. His conduct, however, upon that point should not be governed by the advice of the noble lord; but it would be materially influenced by the advice of that noble lord's constituents. Those persons, it was evident, differed in opinion from the noble lord, for they thought and declared that the introduction of that wool was likely essentially to benefit the country.

The Chancellor of the Exchequer

said, that he continued in the same sentiments which he had expressed in the course of the last session, and agreed with the hon. gentleman, that whatever might be the ultimate effect of the measure, no sufficient experiment had yet been made to warrant the proposed alteration. If it was improper, generally speaking, to apply a tax to the raw material, it was a principle no less sound, that by the effect of taxation our natural produce should be supported. The noble lord had adverted in his speech to general principles, as regarded the present question, and if the ordinary rules of political economy could be dispensed with in one case they might be dispensed with in another. That noble lord had stated, that the present measure was sometimes called a measure of protection, and sometimes a measure of revenue; and he had declared, that whatever might be said in its defence upon the one ground, must necessarily operate against it upon the other. Now, he saw no such inconsistency. The article would be a fair article for the support of the revenue; if it could be proved that the consumption was not so far diminished by the tax, but that to a considerable extent it would still remain. The measure would operate as a protection to our native wool, if, while it admitted sufficient foreign material for the purposes of manufacture, it prevented such an influx of low priced foreign wools, as would destroy the production of the raw material at home. He knew no fitter article for taxation than one of which the consumption was gradually, constantly, and continually increasing. Such ah article was foreign wool. It would be found, that in the year 1791–2 the quantity annually imported amounted to about 2,800,000 lbs. This was before the commencement of the late war. It was not until the year 1814 that the importation amounted to 6,000,000 lbs. and in the year 1818 it arose to 26,000,000 lbs. It would be found that the increase of our exportation of manufactured goods had by no means kept pace with our importation of the raw material; during that period, in which our importations had increased, in the proportion of nearly five to one, our exports had only risen two-sixths upon their former amount. It would be evident, therefore, that a great quantity of the imported wool must have been thrown for a considerable time upon the market. The woollen trade, as regarded the raw material, might be divided into three classes; the finer wools, which were imported from Saxony and Spain, some of which were now produced at home, and some from the British colonies, from New South Wales, and from the Cape of Good Hope. This species of wool formed two-thirds of the whole quantity imported, and upon this species of wool it was not supposed that the duty in question had any sensible effect. With respect to what had been said, as to his previous statement of the amount of revenue to be produced by this tax, the importation of fine wool alone would nearly cover that amount: 4,300,000l. to arise from a duty of sixpence per pound, from which the old tax of one penny per pound being deducted, 250,000l. would remain, was all that he had promised to parliament. Now, the average produce of the last year had amounted to 19,000,000 lbs.—say 16,000,000; and supposing one-fourth of it, on account of the low priced wool to be deducted, there would then remain 12,000,000 lbs which at once would give the 300,000l. The second class to be considered was the long wool, which was the exclusive product of this country, and which he had heard afforded to us in our manufactures a peculiar advantage over all other nations. If this was true, little danger, he imagined could be apprehended from the tax in question. It was contended by some manufacturers, that there was a certain class of articles, articles of recent invention, which could not be made without a mixture of some portion of foreign coarse wool. At all events, that assertion deserved examination, for every branch of British industry deserved to be encouraged. The interests of the wool grower and bf the manufacturers were most intimately connected, and if the wool grower was ruined by free importation, the manufacturer would be deprived of his best and safest reliance. The exportation of woollen manufactures had not fallen off more than the cotton, the hardware, and not so much as many other articles. The distress which had been quoted as existing in Sheffield was a sufficient proof that distress was not produced by the operation of the wool-tax alone. Much of the present distress, in fact, the greater part, might be attributed to a want of exportation to America. It would be found upon examination, that the circulation of bank paper in that country was reduced from 110,000,000 to 45,000,000 of dollars. He did not mean to attribute the whole embarrassment of the American trade to that cause, but that cause had doubtless operated to a very considerable extent. America, however, would recover rapidly, and the inconveniences which we were experiencing from a want of exportation to that country would at the same moment be removed. It was not in England only that a depression of the woollen trade had taken place. The manufacturers of France had quite as much cause for complaint as the manufacturers of this country. In France, however, no new wool-tax had been imposed and therefore their distress, at least, must be referable to other causes. The right hon. gentleman concluded by declaring, that he should oppose the present motion. He was not of opinion that the tax had been fairly tried, but as far as it had been tried, it certainly had not failed.

Mr. Stuart Wortley

felt that both his noble friend and himself, as representatives of the county in which this great manufacture was principally carried on, would be listened to with some suspicion by the House. No power, however, should induce him, and he was sure that no power would induce his noble friend, to advocate any cause which he did not conscientiously believe to be a just one. He would advert, in the first place, to the time when the tax in question was originally imposed, in order to separate any distress which that tax might have produced from the distress which had existed before that tax was in being. He did not mean to say, that any very great degree of distress had been produced by the, operation of that tax, but he could not think that no ill effect was to be attributed to it; because, if he was to believe that which was stated by the merchants, and by the manufacturers of the country, he must believe that it had prevented those persons from speculating upon the orders, which, at this period of the year, they usually expected to receive, and, as a natural consequence, had gone to deprive the labouring classes of employ. That the situation of the country was pitiable beyond the conception of that House, he of his own knowledge could assert. The change in the appearance of the West Riding of Yorkshire, and the change of appearance in the great market of Leeds, within the last two years, was incredible. Two years ago, the people of the West Riding, were some of the best-looking, best dressed, and most cheerful in the country; and when he went back to canvass the county upon a late occasion, the difference in the appearance of the people, the change in their countenances, the change in their clothes, and the general alteration in the aspect of the town, had impressed him with feelings which would not be easily erased from his mind. The chancellor of the exchequer had laid much stress upon the circumstance of the Spanish export-tax having been taken off as soon as the present import-tax was imposed, as if it were merely taking so much money out of the exchequer of Spain, and putting so much money into the exchequer of England. The manufacturers complained, "this tax drives us out of the foreign markets," and the right hon. gentleman answered, "the Spanish export tax is taken off." It was taken off certainly, but it was not taken off as regarded this country alone, but as regarded all other countries, and if there was only a probability that the manufacturers were right, he, notwithstanding the attachment which he professed to the government, and the support which he had been accustomed to afford it, would say, that the present tax was as cruel a blow as ever was inflicted by any government upon a suffering people. No doubt, fine wool might be produced in the country, and no doubt we had lately produced finer wool than we had formerly been accustomed to produce, but we never could produce that quality of wool which was imported from Spain, and which was in dispensable to the manufacture of the finer cloths. If the tax had only been imposed upon fine wool, it was possible that fine wool might bear it, because that wool must come to this country to work up, the English wool. As to the coarse wool, there was a great quantity of cloth necessary for the foreign markets, which required a quality of wool not grown in this country to be mixed with the long wool; and if we were shut out from obtaining that coarse wool, we could not manufacture such cloths. Then could there be a doubt that wool which was imported at the cost price of eightpence must be totally excluded, by a duty of sixpence? He would ask any farmer who had the happiness to possess land which would bear these long-woolled sheep, whether he could be so well paid by any other description of produce? Unless the long wool could not be consumed by the manufacturers of our own country, it would be folly to allow its exportation, because that wool would be worked up abroad with the foreign short wool which we were now seeking to exclude, and the consequence would be, that foreigners would beat us even in our own manufactures. It was the universal opinion of those persons whose means of existence depended upon the woollen manufacture, that the tax in question had been a deadly blow to it, and from that tax he trusted they would be released by the decision of the House.

Mr. Huskisson

thought that the hon. gentleman who spoke last had mistaken the meaning of the chancellor of the exchequer as of the abolition of the Spanish export duty. It had merely been stated, that the tax being levied now in England, and not in Spain, went into the treasury of England, and not into the Spanish treasury. He believed it would scarcely be denied, that three-fourths of the foreign wool which was imported into this country was consumed by the population of this country; consequently, if the tax which had existed in Spain was now levied in England, that tax, as regarded the people of this country was no additional burthen. Three-fourths of the quantity imported was consumed in this manner; the remaining fourth was manufactured and exported. The question was, whether that was a wise tax which put 250,000l. a-year into the Treasury, without levying any new burthen on the people? He should have liked to have asked the hon. gentleman what was the proportion of Spanish wool exported to other parts of the world as compared with England? He believed it would be found that France imported not less than 500,000 lbs., certainly not exceeding a million pounds, and that in fact more than 7–10ths of the Spanish wool exported came to this country alone. The question was narrowed to the consideration of the coarse wools only, the importation of which into this country first took place about four or five years ago, when our coarse wools were at most enormous prices. The hon. gentleman had stated that the admixture of these wools was necessary to make a certain description of woollen goods, that is, the whole consumption of British and foreign wool together being about 160 millions of pounds, of which about three millions of pounds were of foreign wool paying the tax, which was the enormous grievance complained of, and that was to occasion the total ruin of all our woollen manufactures. In the whole history of the system of protecting duties, as they were called, he challenged the noble lord and the hon. gentleman to show him a single instance like that of the wool-growers of this country: they were confined to the markets of England for the sale of their produce, and before the tax was laid on were without any protection from the competition of the foreign wool-grower. What would the West India merchant say, if foreign sugars were thus allowed to come in competition with the produce of our own islands? The tax, he thought was necessary as a protection to the growers of British wool, and it was but common justice to allow it them; for if a free export were permitted, he was satisfied much greater advantages would accrue to them than any which they could derive from the protective power of the tax. He wished, on the part of the wool-grower, nothing more than a fair competition with foreigners in all the markets of the world; but if he was confined to the market of this country only, then certain- ly they ought to protect him in that to which he was so limited. The noble lord said that this was the only instance of a tax on the raw material? Was not cotton a raw material? Was not timber taxed, and was not that a raw material of considerable importance to this country? The numerous packages in which goods were exported from hence were thus all taxed. The dying drugs and oil used in that very manufacture of woollens, were they not raw materials, and all taxed, but taxed with a reference to the wants of the country on the one hand, and with the least possible prejudice to the manufacturers on the other? The distress to which the noble lord had alluded had arisen from more general causes—causes pressing on every class of trade, agriculture, and manufactures. If he had inquired into the state of the cotton trade, he would in that have found the same diminution in demand, the same reduction of wages, in short, the same distress as complained of in the woollen trade. How, then, could the distress in that branch be attributed to the tax? The diminution was attributable to the diminished demand in America; for on a comparison of the exports of last year as compared with the exports of the preceding year to that country, it would appear that there had been a falling oft" in the cotton trade of more than one-half; in the hardware manufactures, full one-half; and the export of woollens, though considerably diminished, had, in fact, suffered the least diminution of any. Comparing the exports of woollens to all the world, after deducting the diminution of America, it would appear that there was very little falling off; indeed, less in that article than in any other: from which it was evident that that effect had not been produced by any of our internal regulations. The order which was said to have been received in this country from Russia, and which could not be executed at the price limited, might have had that price fixed so low, that notwithstanding cur reduced rate of labour it could not be executed; but was it executed any where else? He would answer that it was not; for in no other place could it be executed for want of British coarse wool, which was only to be had here. He had thought it his duty to inquire into the state of the woollen trade on the continent, and had found it, from the operation of the same causes, still more depressed and distressed than it was here. He thought there was no reason to expect that the tax would affect the export of any articles of which British wool was a component part, and that they were bound to give it a fair trial, not as regarded the revenue, which he conceived to be a secondary consideration, but for the protection of the wool-grower, whom the House would be bound, if they repealed the tax, not to leave in the situation he was before placed in; for he was confident the manufacturers themselves must think the monopoly of British wool was a boon to them, far more than adequate to any loss arising from the tax. If, therefore, it was not thought desirable by any party to open the trade for the export of British wool, it was essential that the British grower should be protected from the competition of the foreigner in the market to which he was limited.

Mr. Curwen

said, he thought the woollen manufactures, above all others, demanded the peculiar protection of the House, and that a more impolitic tax than the present had never been proposed; for at the same time that it failed to assist the agriculturist, for whose benefit it was said to be laid on, it operated a direct and considerable injury to the manufacturer. Whatever tended to decrease productive labour must be injurious, and this measure was of that description; for it discouraged the woollen trade, which employed a larger proportion of people than any other. He wished that every labouring hand in the country should be productively employed; as many as possible in agriculture, and the remainder in commerce and manufactures.

Mr. Philips

said, he must give the noble lord's motion his support, because he was of opinion that the tax was calculated to prevent exportation, and by no means adapted to relieve the distresses of the manufacturing classes.

Mr. J. Smith

said, that in the present state of the country, he should be unwilling to vote for the repeal of any tax, unless it pressed heavily upon the people, and was peculiarly injurious to their interests. The reason for this unwillingness was the alarm he felt from the present financial state of the country. Any measure tending to lessen the means of supporting the public credit should be viewed with some degree of alarm. He did not, however, feel disposed to continue the wool tax, as he considered it liable to great objections. The cloth manufacture was declining when government came forward to propose this duty. It was a branch of manufacture that required a large capital, and the consequence of the tax must have been to lessen that capital, at a time when the manufactures were in want of it. It was probable also, that the great extension of the cotton manufacture was injurious to that of cloth. It was not correct to say, that the tax produced 300,000l. a-year.

Mr. Barrett

opposed the motion. He did not see how this tax could have raised the price of wool, it being in operation only since October last.

The previous question being put, "That that question be put," the House divided: Ayes, 128; Noes, 202: Majority against lord Milton's motion, 74.