§ The House having gone into a Committee of Supply,
§ Lord Palmerstonsaid, in rising to move the Army Estimates for the present year, he should not trespass long on the attention of the House. The report of the committee of finance on this subject was so full, and so minute in its details, as to leave very little to state by the person who brought forward the estimates. Upon a general view of the numbers of the army for the present year, as compared with the number of men voted last year taking, in the first instance, the permanent establishments of the two years, and leaving out the troops in India and in France, there would be found a diminution of 9,800 or in round numbers of 10,000 men. Upon a general view of the whole of the estimates of last year and the present year, there appeared to be a diminution in the present year of 26,042 men. This was the amount of the reduction of force which had actually been effected since the estimate of last year. 236 From this diminution of numbers the House might be led to expect a considerable diminution of expense; but the House would recollect, that the expense of the troops employed in France was chiefly defrayed out of the contributions received from France; and that on their return to this country, after the allied troops had withdrawn from France, the pensions and half-pay of the officers necessarily became a burthen on this country. He should state to the committee the amount of the increase and decrease in the estimates of the ordinary services of the army in the present year compared with the last:—The increase in 1819 amounted to 362,194l. 7s. 9d. The decrease to 273,359l. 9s. 4d. Leaving an increase for 1819 of 88,834l. 18s. 5d. In point of fact, however, there was only an increase of 58,000l. In the charge of the present year there was included 203,254l. 11s. the charge for the reductions of the regiments intended to be disbanded in the course of the year. The whole of this charge, however, was not of a temporary nature, for a part of it would continue after the reductions had taken place. After allowing, however, 58,000l. for half-pay and Chelsea pensions, the remainder would be a saving to the country; and it was to be recollected that this sum of 58,000l., the amount of the pay and pensions for the present year, would merge progressively into the reductions. If we looked at the whole expense of the establishments included in the estimates, and those included in the estimates of last year, there would be found a decrease of 763,000l. But this of course included the army in France and the army in India, which could be considered a saving to this country. But then it was proper to view this, not merely with reference to the expense, but also with a view to the diminution of the patronage and influence of the Crown; and in this point of view a reduction of 763,000l. from our expenditure was of very considerable importance. It was not necessary for him to go minutely into the causes and amount of the differences between the ordinary services of the army in 1818 and 1819, as a very full statement on this subject would be found in an appendix to the report of the finance committee. In the first class, which comprised the whole of the active and effective army of the country, the land forces, the staff, the public depart- 237 ments, medicines, and yeomanry corps, In this first class there was a decrease of 272,000l., as compared with last year. On the land forces there was a decrease of 263,000l. produced by the reduction of 9,800 men. On the staff there was an increase of 2,236l. But it was proper to state, that this increase did not arise from that part of the staff called the military; for there was one general officer less this year than in the last. The increase arose in the medical staff. When government first revised the medical staff some years ago, it was but justice to state, that the reductions ordered on the medical staff, appeared to the head of the medical department greater than he thought necessary. But if was thought advisable by the government to carry the reductions into effect, and to leave it to the commanding officers of the different stations to ask for an augmentation if it should be found necessary. Accordingly, various representations had been made by the commanding officers on foreign stations, in consequence of which augmentations had been ordered, which occasioned the increase of 2,236l. In the allowance to the principal officers of the several public departments there was an increase of 4004l. But this increase arose chiefly from 1000l. for clerks employed in consequence of a temporary pressure of business, and from additions of 821l. 5s. 6d. the grant of allowances to the deputy-paymasters lately employed with the army in France, on the disbanding of that army. The increase of 4004l. might be said to consist of three branches.—First, temporary charges; secondly, half-pay in consequence of reductions; and thirdly, the transfer from the extraordinaries of 1,700l. the charge of the military branch of the public departments in Ireland. Under the head of medicines, there was a diminution of 8,600l. This was occasioned by the return of the army from France, by which the medical stores of that army were made available. On the volunteer corps there was a diminution of 1,872l. This arose from the diminution in the charge for the Irish volunteers; for, in the English establishment, there was a small increase, in consequence of the augmentation voted last year to the yeomanry cavalry of this country. Taking together the various sums of increase and decrease, there remained a diminution on the first class of 272,000l. With respect to the second class, it was not
†238 necessary for him to enter into any particulars now. The expense of the troops in India, as the House knew, were charged on the India company; for though it was charged in the first instance on this country, it was ultimately paid by the East India company. In the third class, which comprised the half-pay, pensions, &c. there was a considerable increase. In the military college, one of the heads, there was a diminution of 340l. In the item of garrisons there was an increase, as compared with last year, of 259l. In the article of pay for retired officers and unattached officers there was a decrease of 5,371l. In the charge for half-pay and military allowances to reduced officers, there was an increase of 87,398l. This increase arose from the reductions which had taken place. In the half-pay of the foreign corps however, there was a diminution of 6,635l. In the charges for Chelsea and Kilmainham Hospitals there was an increase of 121,325l. But this sum could not properly be considered all increase; for 30,000l. was taken in 1818 from the unclaimed shares of prize money, in aid of the charge of out-pensioners, and none was taken in the present year; and 14,257l. 18s. was taken last year from the poundage on out-pensions, making together 44,000l.; so that the real increase was only 77,000l. In the military asylum there was an increase of 3,631l.; but this arose entirely from the increase in the price of provisions which were supplied by contract. In the widows' pensions there was an increase of 5,247l. In the compassionate list there was an increase of 6,726l. In the superannuation allowances there was an increase of 2,965l. arising from the reductions which had been in the establishments in the commencement of the year. It might be satisfactory to the House, on stating this increase, to know what had been the effect of the reductions which had taken place in the official establishments in the years 1816, 17, 18, and 19—The reductions, on the whole, were 24,954l. from which the retired allowances fell to be deducted, leaving a saving of 11,262l. There was this farther consideration, that the appointments having been abolished, the remaining expense would only continue during the life of the persons enjoying the allowances. He wished, before proposing any resolution to the House, to draw their attention to that part of the Report of the Committee which related to 239 the proportions between the charges for the active and the charges for the inactive heads of service. The whole of the estimates for the present year amounted to 6,379,548l.—Of this sum, the charge for the effective part of the army amounted to 3,503,337l. leaving 2,876,210l. for pensions and other charges. In calling the attention of the House to this, it was far from being his intention to insinuate, that that part of our expenditure was either improperly or unfairly incurred, The pensions were first, for those officers whose professional prospects were closed by the very victories they had achieved; and next, for officers and men crippled in the service; and lastly, for the widows of officers fallen in the service. These were claims that he was sure a British House of Commons would always be led to respect. He knew how averse the House and the country were to all manner of charges, however trifling in amount, of which they did not see the justice or the necessity; but expenses necessary to the national honour and character, however heavy, were always willingly borne. With respect to the charges for the active and effective part of the army, he should proceed to state the effect of the reductions effected in the last two years. If they compared the permanent force remaining after all the reductions effected, with the force on foot—in the beginning of 1817 there would be found a reduction of 41,298 men, and a decrease of charge of 1,336,000l. If they went back one year farther, and compared the army after the reductions with the amount of the estimates of 1816, the reductions would be 62,982 men, and the decrease of charge, after allowing for the increase of half pay, 1,566,000l. He should not detain the House longer at present, but proceed to move the various Resolutions. The noble lord then concluded with moving,—"That a sum, not exceeding 258,776l. 11s. 2d. be granted to his majesty, to complete the sum required for defraying the charge of his majesty's land forces, for service in Great Britain, and on the stations abroad (excepting the regiments employed in the territorial possessions of the East India company), from the 25th of Dec. 1818 to the 24tth of Dec. 1819, both inclusive, being 365 days."
Colonel Daviesconceived that a saving might be effected in the estimates of 120,000l. It was not his intention to enter into any detail on the subject now; he 240 should merely observe, that the saving might be effected by reducing two regiments of cavalry and a certain number of regiments of infantry, and retaining the reduced troops in the other regiments. By reducing three regiments of cavalry, without affecting their effective force, a saving of 50,000l. would be produced. By the reduction of 15 battalions of infantry, a saving of 90,000l. might be effected. He should not now take the sense of the House on the subject; but when the report was brought up, he should move, that 120,000l. less than the sum then mentioned be granted. He could not help expressing his astonishment at the increase of the staff, and particularly when he compared the staff of Ireland with that of this country. In England, Scotland, Guernsey, and Jersey, there were seven general officers, exclusive of the commander in chief, and the heads of departments. In Ireland, there were no fewer than eleven general officers. The smaller staff was attached to the larger force. In this country there were 25,000 men, while in Ireland there were only between 17 and 18,000. He really did not see what called for this increase. The detection of smugglers was not a duty on which general officers could be employed. With respect to the military college, as far as he knew, it was of very little use. He himself was at the military college before he entered the army. We were then at war, and there was a constant drain from it for the army. Then, however, the number of cadets were only about 200, whereas now there were upwards of 300. What necessity was there for such a number of cadets, when there were so many officers on half pay who had a claim to be restored to the service before the reception of a single cadet? These young men were kept there at a considerable expense to themselves. It seemed to him as if a pretence only was wanted for keeping tip this enormous establishment. He should not, however, enter farther into the subject at present, but when the report was brought up he should show how the saving of 120,000l. might be made, and propose a deduction to that amount from the estimates.
§ Mr. Humesaid, that the objections he had to make on the present occasion to some parts of the military estimates, would not, he hoped, be considered as in any way reflecting on the army. No man in the House was more sensible of the merit 241 of the army, and of their gallant and glorious exertions to place this country in the high and commanding position in which it now stood. It had defended our rights in the most perilous times, and raised the glory of the country in an unexampled degree; but, on the present occasion, he had a duty to perform, as a member of the House, which was paramount to every other, to endeavour to lessen, if possible, all unnecessary expenses to the nation in its present condition. He thought, that, after the exemplary patience with which the people of this country had borne the great expenses of a long-continued war, they had a right, now that we were at peace, to expect such a reduction of the expences, as could be made without diminishing the force actually necessary for the safety and protection of the state. He was not one of those who thought a standing army should be entirely disbanded in time of peace; but he considered it important, that it should be as small as possible, and regulated only by the exigency of the times, not by comparison with times of war, and of extraordinary exertions. As to the numerical force proposed to be kept up, he thought it too great, but he should not offer any opinion as to what ought to be the exact number. He thought, that in considering the number, reference should be had to the amount of former peace establishments, to the circumstances in which the world is placed as to the distant prospect of war, and not by comparison with what force had been maintained during the three past years; and he must say that in the present state of the country 3,503,337l. appeared to be a large sum for the efficient troops of a peace establishment. Highly as he respected the noble lord, the chairman of the finance committee which had laid a report on the estimates of the army for this year on the table of the House, he could not agree with the noble secretary at war, in the eulogium passed on the noble lord and on the labours of the committee on this occasion. He had to offer an opinion, certainly with great diffidence, but he believed that it was an opinion very generally adopted, that the finance committee had not on the present occasion fulfilled the expectations which were entertained of it. Their report on the table, as far as he could judge, was only a compilation and comparison of returns and accounts, which had been laid before the House, as 242 called for from the public offices, and which any accountant might have easily prepared. The comparison of the establishment, and expense of the present year had been made as between those of 1817 and 1818, and in some of the establishments between those of the year 1814, a year of the greatest exertions this or any country had ever made in war, and which he believed could ever again be equalled. He had expected, that the Committee, in considering a proper military establishment for the fourth year of peace, would have had reference to the peace establishment of 1792, and not to a comparison with the estimates of 1814, or 1818. He was well aware, that we could scarcely expect to return to the military establishment of 1792, but he had no hesitation in saying, that we ought to approximate as near to it as possible, as the finance committee of 1817 had recommended. The finance committee of the year in their report state, that they avoid giving any opinion upon the numerical amount of the army, for the reasons given in the report upon the army estimates in 1817; and it was somewhat curious, on reference to that report, to find that that committee recommends an approximation to the military establishments of 1792, as absolutely necessary for the welfare of the country in the following words: "Your committee, in making reference to the year 1792, desire to call the notice of the House to the low establishments of the latter part of that year, which was deemed sufficient for all national purposes at that time in the contemplation of a long continuance of peace; and although many circumstances are materially changed by events which have subsequently taken place, so as to prevent any exact parallel from being drawn between the two cases, especially in the amount of pecuniary charge, yet they submit, that as near an approximation to the low scale of establishment and expense, as may be found consistent with our more extended possessions, and with the augmented rates of various fixed disbursements, would be highly advantageous in relieving the burthens, and in supporting the public credit of the country." He could not avoid observing, that the suggestions of the committee of 1817 had not been attended to by the finance committee of this year in any one particular of the estimates, although they had referred to their report as an authority. He begged also to ob- 243 serve, that by the orders of this House to the finance committee, they were to consider and report "What farther measures may be adopted for the relief of the country from any part of the said expenditure, without detriment to the public interest;" but in the whole of the report which the noble secretary at war had eulogized, there were no measures of that nature pointed out. He should only observe, that their report afforded a melancholy prospect to the country, if there was to be no relief from the burthen of taxation, necessarily heavy in war, but which should be lessened by retrenchment and economy, during the opportunity afforded by the return of peace. The noble lord stated a reduction in the amount of several items of the estimates as compared with those of last year, but there was also an increase in other items which rendered the total expense of this year greater than that of last year by 88,512l.! This committee had to consider the total amount which the nation had to pay; and it appeared that no reduction had been made in the military expenditure in this year, as compared with 1818and it was, therefore, a question as to the credit for economy which was due to government for their exertions. It was, indeed, a fact worthy the most serious attention of the committee, that, by the estimate of the finance committee, the expenditure for 1820 would be, within a few hundreds, the same as for the past year. In 1818 the amount was 6,494,290l.; in 1819 the estimate is 6,582,802l.; for 1820, the estimate is 6,496,700l. With an estimated peace establishment of that amount, it behoved the committee to consider what reductions should be made, as he was satisfied several might be effected with perfect safety to the country. He should not detain the committee with any observation on the number of troops, as the hon. member who had last spoken, intended to call the attention of the committee to it; but in the expense of recruiting, and the amount of the staff, here was great room for reduction. The Military College presented itself as particularly deserving the notice of the committee. Its expense for this year being 25,173l. He was aware that during the war, when we had 3 or 400,000 men in arms, the college on its present scale might be highly beneficial; but it became a question worthy the serious attention of the committee, whether or not it 244 should be continued on the same extensive scale, in the fourth year of peace, and with the prospect of its continuance. He had no hesitation in stating, that it ought to be very much reduced. It might be said, that the army was supplied with scientific officers from the college, and that it would be very bad policy to cut off that supply. He should prove to the committee, that such an assertion was in reality erroneous, and that the army neither had nor did derive that advantage from it which was generally supposed. There were now 400 cadets at the college, and as four years were required for their education, there should be one hundred a year supplied as officers for the army: But by a return now on the table, which he had moved for, it appeared, that in the three years preceding January l819, only twenty-five a year had been supplied, making in the whole seventy-six cadets, appointed from the Military College to commissions in the army, from Jan. 1816, to Jan. 1819; so that the country had paid for the education of these 25 cadets, upwards of 1,000l. each; and 374 youths had been educated, in the expectation of obtaining commissions, and had been disappointed. He begged leave to read what the finance committee of 1817 had reported to the House respecting the Military College which he regretted had remained so long unattended to: "Your committee cannot however but question the expediency of continuing the establishment on its present extensive scale. They most heartily join in the feelings which would induce parliament to provide for the orphan children of those gallant men who have sacrificed their lives in the service of their country; and also for the children of meritorious officers now actually serving, but if the whole number at present on the establishment are to be provided with commissions, it must unavoidably operate nearly to the exclusion of all other classes from the army. And your committee submit whether such a system would not be in direct variance from what has hitherto been practised in this kingdom; and whether it might not justly be considered as inconsistent with the spirit of the constitution. But if these young men cannot be promoted, it is almost superfluous to remark on the inexpediency, and eventual cruelty, of educating them for stations which they are not likely to fill, and of encouraging hopes that must be disappointed." [Hear.] The next item upon which he should 245 make a few observations, was the half-pay list, amounting to 2,876,210l.; which although great, he was confident the nation would, under all its pressure, willingly pay, as the reward of long and arduous services in the defence of the state to deserving officers; but the great amount, and the distressed state of the finances of the country, rendered it the more necessary that it should not be increased farther, by placing on it new pensioners, who had not served in the war. By a rectum on the table made up to March last, it appeared that there were 1,663 captains, 3,063 lieutenants, and 1,214 cornets and ensigns on the half-pay list, of whom many would be glad to join the army on vacancies occurring. It appeared that in the three years from January 1816 to 1819, there had been 720 gentlemen, appointed to commissions in the army, of which number 294 had been appointed without purchase, (i.e. had their commission given to them) and in the same time, 294 of these cornets and ensigns had been placed on half-pay, at an expense of from 54l. to 63l. a year; thereby creating an annuity of 16 or 17,000l. a-year, which might have been entirely saved, by bringing officers from the existing half-pay; and by that means there would have been a double saving, amounting to 35,000l. as the half-pay of the officer brought in full-pay would have been saved to the public. [Hear.] If the half-pay of the 598 officers is calculated at twelve years purchase, there had been an unnecessary expense created to the public of about 400,000l., and which he contended ought to have been saved. It must be evident that some alteration must be made in this mode of proceeding, equally expensive and ruinous to the nation, as it was cruel and unjust to the officers on half-pay, who would have been most happy to have been placed on full-pay and actual service, instead of those new men who got the commissions, and were, as appears by the returns, soon afterwards placed on half-pay. He knew that it might be considered as an interference with the patronage of the illustrious duke who presided over the army, but it seemed only equitable, that, while every one was suffering some privations, and making some sacrifices, he should forbear to add to the burthens of the country as he had done, by giving yearly to one hundred persons, pensions of from 50l. to 60l. for life, by granting new commissions, while so many merito- 246 rious and tried officers were anxious to be employed. He trusted his majesty's ministers, who professed themselves anxious to adopt every means of economy, and which they had in many cases, he believed, exercised with pain to themselves, would not allow so unreasonable a course of proceeding.—There was another head of expenditure to which he begged the attention of the Committee—The Royal Military Asylum, supported at an expense of 36,482l. Although that establishment might be considered proper daring the extensive military exertions this country had made, he must express his strong doubts of the policy of continuing it on so extensive a scale in time of peace. At this particular time, when the country was suffering from over population, and when the grown-up population could scarcely get food, it appeared to him to be bad policy to encourage an increase of population from the army at so great an expense to the state. He thought the scale of the establishment should be much reduced, though by degrees. He should not ground any motion on these observations at present, as he considered that any reduction, to be effectual, should be undertaken and made by his majesty's ministers, which he sincerely hoped, they would do.
§ Mr. Bennetsaid, that the great question for the consideration of the committee was, whether an army of 29,553 men was not too large an establishment to be kept up in time of profound peace. It was impossible that such an army could be employed in performing the duties of the country, particularly when it was considered that there were numerous corps of volunteers established in the different districts. The army kept in Ireland amounted to 20,670 men. If such a number of soldiers were necessary to the maintenance of tranquillity in Ireland, it was a disgrace to the government of this country. It was the duty of ministers to adopt such measures as would make the people of Ireland attached to the government, instead of making them detest it. He had been told, that nearly the whole administration of justice in Ireland, was carried on by means of the military; and it was in evidence, that all the gaols of that country were guarded by soldiers, in the room of police; nay, he understood that the offices of turnkeys and attendants, were performed in the same way; and that in one gaol alone, there were no less than 247 37 soldiers employed to do the duty which could be done by three turnkeys. There were major-generals on the Irish military establishment, in number equal to those employed in England and Scotland. There could certainly be no occasion for so large an establishment. There was one subject which he should feel it his duty to bring forward on a future occasion, if the noble lord did not inquire into it; he alluded to the Waterloo prize-money. Whether it was from the vague and unsatisfactory regulations made for the distribution of this money, or from what other cause he knew not, but the effect was, that numbers of those who were entitled to it had been refused, while it was foisted upon those who had no claim whatever to receive it. The troops not actually engaged had been deprived of this money, though they were employed as beneficially, in protecting the flanks of the army and guarding the baggage, &c. as they otherwise could be: yet those troops who were on their passage from America, and those who had been lounging in St. James's-street, when the battle was fought, and who had travelled over to Paris, en bourgeois, in their gigs, were allowed to participate in it. The whole of the medical department, who had the care of the wounded of all countries, were also excluded from any share of this money. Was this fair or equitable? The whole of the Hanoverian corps, who had sustained great injury in the action, had also been excluded, with the exception (and it was rather a curious sort of exception), of those officers who had run away, from their regiments, either before or during the action. Those officers who had so ran away, having joined the army before it reached Paris, were allowed prize money, while those who had remained at their posts were, according to some new-fangled rule, refused it. Some more fair and liberal division of this prize-money ought to be made, and he hoped the noble lord would take the subject into consideration.
§ Sir A. Hopewas surprised to hear an hon. member, advocate the abolition of the Royal Asylum. It was due to those who fought for the country that this provision should be made for their children.
§ Mr. Humebegged to explain. He would be the last man to advocate the abolition of that establishment. What he had said, was, that as we were now in a state of peace, a considerable reduction might be made in its expenditure.
§ Sir A. Hopebegged pardon. He had understood the hon. member differently. The next objection which had been made was to the Military College. This subject had been discussed before, and a committee had reported to the House that it was beneficial to the country in supplying officers for the army. The hon. member here entered into a detail of the present expenses of the establishment, which, he observed, were much reduced from what they had been during the war. None of the cadets were promoted to commissions in the army, but such as were found fully qualified, and of these only sixteen now remained to be provided for.
§ Sir I. Coffindid not mean to find any fault with the army estimates, but he hoped, if an opportunity of reducing the expenditure of the country offered, it would be embraced by ministers.
§ Lord Palmerston, in answer to the objections which had been made to the number of men in each regiment, said, that it would be impolitic to fill them up to the usual compliment in a time of peace. If that were done, and a war were to break out, the only means of augmenting our forces would be by raising now regiments; which it was obvious would be attended with great delay and inconvenience; whereas, by the present regulation, considerable addition could be made to the army, by filling up each regiment. He did not mean then to enter on the subject of the Irish staff, as it was under the consideration of government, and would be matter of future discussion. The Military College merited the support of the country, as it had supplied the army with many able and meritorious officers. It was well known how great an inconvenience, on the breaking out of a war, it was, not to have scientific officers—and scientific officers could only be obtained by experience or by instruction. Such an establishment as the Military College was necessary to keep the army in a state of efficiency; for notwithstanding the gallantry of our officers, without either that experience which war afforded, or that instruction which it was the object of this college to give, they must yield to men of superior science. As to the extent of that establishment, it was not found that it turned out more cadets than could be provided with commissions, for the support of the army on its peace establishment. If that were the case hereafter, there could be no hesitation in making a proportionate 249 reduction in that institution. The hon. gentleman (Mr. Hume) had said, that the half-pay system required serious attention, and recommended, as a measure of justice and economy, that the commissions should be filled up from that list. He had not gone the length of saying, that all commissions should be so filled up. Many officers on half-pay, it was recollected, were those who had obtained commissions for raising corps, and who had always been given to understand, that they would be reduced and put on half-pay; they had, in fact, merely purchased in that manner an annuity for life. Yet the commander in chief had always paid attention to the expediency of filling up commissions out of the half-pay list, and if the half-pay of the officers removed from that list were calculated at twelve years purchase money, 2,678,000l. had been saved in that way to the public. On the augmentation of the army in 1815, there had been appointed to commissions 339 officers from that list, whose half-pay at 12 years purchase would have cost the public 226,000l. It was said that the commander in chief might, by putting an officer on half-pay, grant an annuity without the consent of parliament. But this view of the subject was not correct, as, unless by exchange with another officer on half-pay, no officer was put on the half-pay list except by the reduction of his corps, which was a matter of general arrangement. As to the Military Asylum, the object of it had met with general approbation from all parts of the House. It was, in fact, a charitable institution; and there could not be better objects of charity than those for whom this establishment provided—the orphans of officers who had died in the service, or the children of those, who, being ordered on foreign service, were unable to attend to their education. It was said, that with a peace establishment such an institution was not necessary. But how short a time had elapsed since we had a most numerous army? There were now constantly more candidates for admission, from among the orphans of soldiers, than could be taken in; but if peace continued for some time, there might be room for reduction. In reply to the observation respecting the Waterloo grant, and the complaint, that the medical staff at Brussels had no share in it, he stated, that the rule was, that as this sum was granted as prize money to those who had been engaged in the battle 250 of Waterloo and the capture of Paris, those only who were engaged in the battle, in the sieges of fortresses, or in the capture of Paris, were to share. The garrisons in the rear of the army at Ostend, Brussels, and other places, were, by this rule, excluded, It often happened, that those who performed duties of great danger, did not obtain prize money which was shared by persons who had undergone less difficulty or hazard. But this was inherent in the nature of prize money. It was necessary to draw a distinct line somewhere; and as to the medical officers at Brussels, though they had performed a laborious and responsible duty under very disadvantageous circumstances, they could not be admitted to share unless, the whole of the troops in the rear, including a veteran battallion, which had two days before arrived from England, had been admitted to share also. If the care of the wounded of itself gave a claim to prize money, the medical officers at Deal (whither many of the wounded were removed) would have a claim. He contended that former years did not form a fair criterion as to the amount of force required in the present year. In the last year, sir W. Burroughs had moved to reduce 10,000 men, and a noble lord (Althorp) had proposed a reduction of 5,000 men only; yet, in the present year, 9,800 men had been reduced.
§ General Gascoynecould not concur in the construction which the noble lord put on prize money, which he seemed to think the effect of chance rather than the reward of brilliant service.
§ Lord Palmerstonexplained, that he meant to put no such construction; all he had stated was, that the prize-money was limited to the army actually in the field, either at Waterloo or at the capture of Paris.
§ General Gascoynewas glad to hear this explanation given; still, however, he thought the medical officers immediately attending on the wounded at Brussels, ought to have been considered in the distribution of the prize money. In the late promotions, he certainly believed that the appointments were made in two cases out of three when they were not taken out of the half-pay list, from promises made to meritorious officers, who had faithfully served their country. In his own regiment, the only five vacancies which had occurred were filled up from the half-pay list.
§ Lord Althorpsaid, that when on a former occasion he had proposed a reduction of 5,000 men, it was not that he desired no greater reduction, but because the House had previously negatived a motion for reducing 10,000 men. The establishment for England of 29,000 men seemed to him enormous, especially at a time when only two millions were applicable to the reduction of our debt. The force in Ireland, great as it was, might be necessary; but that necessity was only created by the misgovernment of that country.
§ Mr. Bennetcontended that this was the 6ingle solitary instance in which the medical staff had not shared in prize money, as matter of course. At Lisbon they shared with the army for the capture of Badajos, at Salamanca for the battle of Salamanca, at Vittoria for the battle of Victoria, and it was now, for the first time, that a ray of light had broken in upon the generosity of his majesty's ministers.
§ Sir R. Wilson, after highly eulogizing the character, services, and merit of the medical staff, and contending for their right to a participation in the Waterloo grants, particularly in the case in question, where they were exposed to considerable personal risk, proceeded to put a question to the noble lord. He observed in the army list the names of officers continued four years, yet having a mark against them, to denote that they had only temporary rank. Now, he thought it would be very unfair and injurious to the service, if they were to be permitted to count this as part of their time, and so be enabled, eventually, to dispose of their commissions.
§ Lord Palmerstonreplied, that it was the usage of the service to confer this honorary distinction on particular individuals; but they held no commissions in our army, nor, of course, derived any emolument from that honour. It was purely, indeed, honorary, and had been in the present case conferred on some distinguished foreigners as a mark of favour.
§ Sir R. Wilsonasked, if any of the officers alluded to, as standing on the army list without a commission, did not receive pay.
§ Lord Palmerstonreplied, that, there was not one as he believed.
§ Mr. Bennet, again adverting to the subject of prize money to medical officers, 252 said that the distinction made by the noble lord regarding the medical officers at Brussels and (hose on the field at the battle of Waterloo, did not hold in other cases, as the medical officers in garrison at Lisbon had received prize money on the retreat of the French from before Torres Vedras, though at a great distance from the scene of action.
§ The resolutions for the different items of supply were then successively put and agreed to.