§ The Chancellor of the Exchequer moved the order of the day, for the House to resolve itself into a committee on the consolidated fund produce bill. On the motion, "That Mr. Speaker do now leave the chair,"
§ Mr. Grenfellsaid, that the proposed measure, with reference to the accumulation of public money in the hands of the Bank of England, was by no means what the House had a right to expect from the repeated statements and declarations of the chancellor of the Exchequer since the commencement of the session, and particularly those of the 1st February, and of Friday last. Those statements and declarations were calculated to mislead and disappoint the public, and in fact the public had been misled and disappointed. He would venture to appeal to every member in the House, to the chancellor of the exchequer, and to the country at large, whether what had fallen from the right hon. gentleman did not amount to this—that as public money had accumulated in the hands of the Bank of England to the amount of 7,000,000l., he had a measure in contemplation which would have the effect of abstracting 6,000,000l., and rendering it available to the public service. In other words, that the public would derive an advantage equal to the interest upon 6,000,000l. of money. If the right hon. gentleman had any doubt, perhaps one circumstance might bring the whale distinctly to his recollection. Something had fallen from him leading to a supposition that he meant to limit his bill to the exchequer balances, which had immediately induced him (Mr. Grenfell) to rise and state, that there were other balances, amounting, on an average, to 3,000,000l., and that he should not be satisfied unless they were also touched and appropriated to the service of the nation. Did not the right hon. gentleman then assert unequivocally, that his plan would not be confined merely to the exchequer deposit, but would embrace all the public money in the hands of the Bank; or to put. it more shortly, deprive that bony of 6,000,000l. out of 7,000,000l. leaning it
†1039 1,000,00l. as an adequate remuneration for its trouble in the character of accountant? Now, the utmost that could be obtained from the bill before the House was, that the public would receive what was equivalent to the interest upon three millions instead of six. As a confirmation of what he had advanced as to the promises of the chancellor of the exchequer, be might appeal to the right hon. gentleman at the head of the woods and forests, (Mr. Huskisson), who had asserted, that in his opinion, the arrangement suggested on Friday last would not be more advantageous than that made by Mr. Perceval and himself. It was well known, that there were no less than 56 balances of various kinds in the hands of the Bank, and the measure now proposed only touched one of them; so that, in fact, the House and the country had been totally misled by the flattering expectations held out by the chancellor of the exchequer.
The Chancellor of the Exchequersaid, that the very title of this bill, certainly the resolution he moved for in the committee of the whole House, was the best answer to the hon. gentleman's observations. The title was for the application to the public service of a part of the growing produce of the consolidated fund. It professed solely to refer to the exchequer bills account, which was certainly only one (though a very important one) of the 36 accounts of balances. The hon. gentleman was well aware, that since the peace, the public balances in the hands of the Bank had been reduced to six or seven millions; he must also know, that with respect to several of these balances, the sums for instance from the court of chancery, in the hands of the accomptant-general, and the monies for the public creditor, he had no control, as their appropriation was specifically enjoined by a distinct act of parliament. He could assure the House, that in the general public departments, where cash must be in the first instance deposited for the ordinary transactions of business, care was always taken not to leave a deposit for a larger sum than would cover the exigencies of a week or ten days in advance. There. was, it was true, another branch of public balances in the hands of the Bank, he meant the revenue balances, which were no longer suffered to remain in the hands of private bankers, in the names of the receivers general and these were weekly and sometimes oftener, paid over 1040 to the exchequer. Perhaps the total of the smaller balances would not be found to exceed at the outside 1,600,000l. or 1,700,000l. If, in the course of business, still further sums could be rendered available for the public, he was ready to admit that such savings should not be lost sight of, and that they ought to receive immediate attention. He had no hesitation whatever in saying, that the interest of six millions would be available to the public, three millions on the day after this act passed. He thought this would be found to be the fact subject to the Bank debt, and the arrear on the consolidated fund. In 1808, when the Bank had the benefit of public balances, amounting on an average to eleven or twelve millions, Mr. Perceval conceived he had made a good bargain when he got a loan of three millions free of interest. The present arrangement was, he thought, still more advisable with a view to the public interests. The bill did not protect the Bank against any farther reduction of their balances, if it should appear desirable to make such reduction; it only went to regulate one important branch of the public balances.
§ Mr. Tierneybegged to ask the right hon. gentleman, what was his own undertaking when first he announced to the House his intention of making the public balances in the Bank available to the public service? Was it not that he contemplated the reduction from seven millions to one, applying thereby six millions to the use of the public? He now asked, whether in the answer, or rather no answer, he had given to the speech of his hon. friend, he had not altogether abandoned that intention? These Bank balances consisted of two descriptions—one from the growing produce of the consolidated fund, the other arising from the general receipts of the departments of the government. How came it then, that the proposed measure was now reduced to so limited a scale? He verily believed the chancellor of the exchequer would, if he could, have been consistent, but the truth was, that he was overruled by the Bank, and consequently obliged to hedge from his original engagement. As to these six millions being made available, he believed such a hope had no existence but in the imagination of the chancellor of the exchequer. He, however, first look credit for 3,300,000l. going to meet certain arrears and deficiencies arising on former 1041 quarter? out of the consolidated fund. Now, for such a purpose, he had no necessity: for the present bill, as there already existed an act of parliament which provided for such deficiency by the issue of exchequer bills which bills were to be met by the current revenue of the succeeding quarter. Then came the other branch namely the repayment of 3,000,000l. due to the Bank. What means had the House of knowing that a sum existed to be thus applied? They had no papers before them on which alone they could form a correct judgment. It was but the other day the chancellor of the exchequer moved for the production of a paper calculated to give information on that part of the subject. He might have the paper in his hand, but he should allow members time to get its contents into their heads. Would he say, that there existed the means of making to the Bank an actual and positive repayment of 3,000,000l.? Surely he must feel that it would be unbecoming in him to say so, merely because such a balance existed on one particular day in the quarter—he must feel it a perfect fallacy, unless such a result could be shown from the average of the quarter. Let him (Mr. T.) be allowed to remind the right hon. gentleman, that early in the present session, he himself thought, in answer to an observation of his hon. friend, that the considerations of the Bank balances should be referred to the committee now sitting on the Bank question. He (Mr. T.) differed from him as to the reference to that particular committee, feeling that the question should go to the committee of finance. Why not refer the question now to them, and delay the committal until the House had its report? The House stood in need of information, and the chancellor of the exchequer should have a little mercy on them, and not measure their intellects by his own. The probability was, that after that committee had made their report, there would be no difference of opinion. The right hon. member concluded with moving as an amendment, the postponement of the committal of the bill until Monday se'n-night.
The. Chancellor of the Exchequerreplied, that his bill went to regulate the whole question respecting the exchequer balances, and he could not consent to postpone it for the object alluded to; at the same time, he felt no. difficulty in admitting, that the whole of the other 1042 balances might come very shortly under the consideration and regulation of the House. This would form no ground whatever for delaying the operation of the present bill.
§ Mr. Tierneysaid, that all he wanted was, to know the effect of the principle of this bill. If the bill were referred to a committee, he would pledge his existence they would make no such report as the right hon. gentleman had made in anticipation of its efficacy.
§ Mr. Lushingtonobserved, that he had found no reason to depart from the explanation he had given on a former occasion, namely, that 3,300,000l. would be on account of arrears of the consolidated fund, and 2,700,000l. would be applied to the payment of the Bank.
§ The House divided on the chancellor of the exchequer's motion: Ayes, 154; Noes, 80 The House haying resolved itself into the committee,
§ Mr. Tierneypressed the right hon. gentleman to state, in what manner he expected to have between two and three millions available to go in reduction of the Bank loan.
The Chancellor of the Exchequerreplied, that he expected the amount would turn out to be as he had already stated it.
§ Mr. Tierneyrepeated, that all he desired to know was, what was the probable amount of the sum which was expected to accrue at the end of the quarter, when this bill was to come into operation?
The Chancellor of the Exchequerreplied that he thought the average amount alluded to would be about three millions, as far as he could judge.
§ Mr. Tierney.—The right hon. gentleman says he believes, as far as he can judge, the quarter's average will be about three millions; now, as far as I can judge, I don't believe a single word of it.
§ Mr. Grenfellasked, what was to be done respecting the exchequer bills which and been issued at an interest of 2d. per diem, where they had remained over in the hands of the Bank?
§ Mr. Maberlydesired to know whether the Bank had not received an interest at the rate of 2½d. on these bills, when the public only received 2d.?
The Chancellor of the Exchequerreplied, that whenever they had held over those bills, they received the interest according 1043 to the regular arrangement made at the time.
§ Mr. Maberlysaid, he understood it was admitted, that where the public only derived an interest of 2d. the Bank had contrived from the nature of their bargains, to get 2½d. per day on these exchequer bills. The public bought their bills, and received their interest at the rate of 2d,; the Bank held out and got 2½d.: so that the difference, instead of being in favour of the public, who purchased with real capital was in favour of the Bank, whose capital was formed by the working of its paper-mill.
Mr. Williamsthought it now quite clear, that after the public were shut out from receiving interest on exchequer bills, which had been held over after a certain day, the Bank continued to obtain an exclusive amount of interest.
§ Mr. Grenfellagain protested against the provisions of this bill. Why was its operation restricted to the saving of the interest on six millions, which was expected to accrue out of the exchequer? The amount first accruing was, after the arrear on the consolidated fund was settled, to be applied to the payment of the Bank Joan. He referred to the quarterly accounts, and said it was impossible to carry this saving higher than three millions by the present bill. He pointedly condemned the limitation of the operation of this bill, and asked, why it should not be made to apply to the whole amount of the growing produce of the consolidated fund? He could see no reason why this should be the case, except that the attempt to make it so, however beneficial to the public, Would trench an the profits of the Bank.
The Chancellor of the Exchequersaid, that this bill was made only by way of experiment, and its principle might hereafter be extended to the other, balances. In his present plan, he kept in view the principle of the negotiation between Mr. Perceval and the Bank, in 1808.
§ Mr. Maberlysaid, that from the ambiguity of the explanations offered in the committee, he was more than ever convinced of the necessity of referring the Subject to the Finance Committee.
§ Mr. Huskissonsaid, the system now proposed protected the interests of the public creditor as much as any that could be devised.
§ The House resumed, and the report was ordered to be received to-morrow.