RESOLUTIONS RELATING TO THE PUBLIC INCOME AND EXPENDITURE.

HC Deb 07 June 1819 vol 40 cc912-74

The Chancellor of the Exchequer moved the order of the day, for going into a Commit tee on the First Report of the Committee of Finance, and the House having resolved itself into the said Committee,

The Chancellor of the Exchequer

said, that after the Report which had been presented on the state of the finances of the country, the committee would naturally expect, previously to any explanation of the arrangements which had been made with a view to meet the supplies of the current year, that some discussion should take place on the matters contained in that Report. It was natural to expect, not only that the general financial state of the country should be brought under the consideration of the committee, but also that some explanation should be given as to the measures which his majesty's government intended to propose to parliament in the present state of the finances, as in their opinion most suited to the situation in which the country now stood. To make such an explanation the more clear and intelligible, and to separate it from the more minute technical details, he had suggested the mode of embodying in the form of Resolutions the more general propositions, as to our financial situation, unincumbered by the particular details which would come to be considered on a future occasion. He therefore hoped that the committee would feel that it would be expedient first to enter into the discussion of those prominent features of our situation which were traced in the Resolutions that he had on a former evening laid on the table. In those Resolutions he had endeavoured, in as short and simple a manner as possible, to bring into view the most material facts, as separated from the details. He had made no reference to any distinct appropriations; because in whatever way they might he arranged, and to whatever degree they might be multiplied, the great and leading question must always be, whether the public in- come was equal to the public expenditure? The finance committee whose labours he was sure the House must highly appreciate, had addressed themselves to that general and comprehensive view of the subject; it was on their reports the resolutions which he had the honour to propose were founded, and to their reports he should therefore refer for the necessary illustration of those resolutions. He would first give a general view of his resolutions; and he would then more particularly describe the mode in which he proposed to carry them into effect.

The first Resolution stated, "That since the termination of the war in 1815, the property tax in Great Britain, and other taxes in Great Britain and Ireland, which yielded a revenue of upwards of 18,000,000l. per annum, have expired or been repealed, or reduced." Of the particulars of that reduction an account had just been laid on the table by his hon. friend, which exhibited the various branches of the revenue in which it had taken place in each; and it thence appeared, that the gross amount of annual taxes reduced since the peace was, on the average of the last two years of their collection, 18,700,000l.

The second Resolution regarded the consolidation of the English and Irish exchequers. It stated, That by an act passed in the 56 George 3rd, cap. 98, the revenues of Great Britain and Ireland were consolidated from the 5th of January 1817; and that in the year preceding the said consolidation, the nett separate revenue of Ireland was 4,561,353l. and the charge of the funded and unfunded debt of Ireland, was 6,446,825l. including therein the sum of 2,438,124l., as the sinking fund applicable to the reduction of the debt; which charge exceeded the whole nett revenue of Ireland by the sum of 1,885,472l. without affording any provision for the civil list, and other permanent charges, or for the proportion of supplies to be defrayed by that part of the united kingdom; and that no provision has been made by this deficiency. By this resolution it appeared, that the whole amount of the Irish national debt had been thrown into the general mass of the debt of the United Kingdom. And here he begged leave distinctly to state, that he did not mean to say that Ireland had not, according to her ability, contributed her fair proportion to the wants of the country. But at the period when the Union of Ireland with Great Britain took place it could not be foreseen that for fourteen years there would be an uninterrupted course of the most expensive war ever known. Indeed, to have contemplated at that period the enormous expenditure which the circumstances of the war subsequently called for, would have appalled the stoutest and most sanguine heart. This observation was applicable to Great Britain as well as to Ireland. When the enormous sums which it became necessary to raise by loan during the war were considered, every one must feel them to be such as it would have been impossible to calculate on beforehand. Whether, with a view to the capabilities of the country, all the arrangements which had been made were such as, upon a knowledge of its resources, would have been most advisable, it was now quite useless to inquire. But certain it was, that, from the peculiar situation in which Ireland was placed, arising from its disordered state in the year 1797 and 1798, the imposition of war taxes had been found impracticable; and if a larger proportion of revenue had been proposed to be contributed by Ireland, it would have proved a strong obstacle to the Union. The consequence was, that while Great Britain raised a large portion of its supplies within the year, Ireland was compelled to meet its extraordinary expenditure by loans. This produced a very important difference in the state of the debt of the two countries, as accumulated during the war. In the period which elapsed between the Union of the two kingdoms and the consolidation of their exchequers, while the national debt of Great Britain increased in the proportion of four to seven, that of Ireland increased nearly eightfold, or, to speak more correctly, in the proportion of 15 to 92. The debt of England had increased within the period to which he adverted from 413,000,000l. to nearly 700,000,000l.; and that of Ireland from about 15,000,000l. to nearly 92,500,000l. The inevitable consequence of this was, that the consolidation of the exchequers of the two countries imposed a great additional charge on Great Britain; amounting, as specified in the resolution which he had just read, to 1,885,472l.—The remaining resolutions were these:—"That the supplies to be voted by parliament for the present year may be stated at 20,500,000l. That the existing revenue applicable to the Supplies cannot be estimated at more than 7,000,000l.; leaving the sum of 13,500,000l. to be raised by loan or other extraordinary resources. That the sinking fund applicable to the reduction of the national debt, in the present year, may be estimated at about 15,500,000l.; exceeding the above sum necessary to be raised for the service of the year by about 2,000,000l. only. That to provide for the exigencies of the public service, to make such progressive reduction of the national debt as may adequately support public credit, and to afford to the country a prospect of future relief from a part of its present burthens, it is absolutely necessary that there should be a clear surplus of the income of the country beyond the expenditure of not less than 5,000,000l.; and that with the view to the attainment of this most important object, it is expedient now to increase the income of the country by the imposition of taxes to the amount of three millions per annum. Such was the general view presented by the state of our finances, and the measures proposed for the maintenance of the public credit. The whole substance of the resolutions was, that in order to have a clear sinking fund of 5,000,000l., it was necessary to raise 3,000,000l. more than the present income. This necessity arose out of the repeal of the property tax and other war taxes in 1816. He was far from arraigning the decision of parliament on that subject, although it was contrary to the opinion of the government, the grounds of which it was unnecessary now to discuss.—He had, however, sincerely hoped, that the repeal of this tax would have afforded to the country the fullest relief possible, but he had been of opinion (and he thought the event had confirmed it) that the country was, in the first instance, to look for relief from the renovation of public industry, and the restoration of public credit.—To effect these important objects it was indispensably necessary to provide for a gradual reduction of the national debt, and it was therefore impossible to state that the revenue of the country was placed on a proper footing, until it afforded a considerable surplus beyond the expenditure. His present object, was, to place the revenue on the footing on which it would have stood had the proposed continuance of the property tax on a modified plan for two years longer been carried into effect by parliament in 1816. Had that been done, the imposition of new taxes would not now be necessary. The consequence of the adoption of the proposition which he made at that period would have been, that the country would have been spared 18 millions of debt, and would have avoided the difficulties that now presented themselves in repaying the ten millions to the Bank proposed by the secret committee of the two Houses of parliament; as under that arrangement this new debt would never have arisen. The measures of finance which had been resorted to by government in the interval between that period and the present, were, in his opinion, the best that could be adopted. They were indeed to be considered only as temporary expedients, but they had brought the country to its present situation without any diminution of credit, without any imputation on character, and without any tax on the necessaries of life. When the property tax was repealed a considerable arrear of it had not been recovered. The sums of that description afterwards received had materially contributed to lessen the public inconvenience which must otherwise have been felt.—The Bank, knowing the necessity of preparing for cash payments, certainly began to reduce their issues; but it was evident that cash payments could not be at once resumed; for the treasury of the Bank had been exhausted during the war, and time was therefore given to the Bank to make the necessary preparation. This gave government a facility in obtaining loans from the Bank, which was considered as affording the most convenient and the most economical means of providing the sum which was required to make up the supplies. The state of the country at the time made such a measure the most advantageous that could be adopted; for it was then labouring under a want of circulation. In such a state of things the loan from the Bank contributed to revive public confidence, and afforded the means of considerable relief to the mercantile interest. So strongly was the necessity of the latter felt by parliament that a million and a half of exchequer bills were issued under its authority for the relief of that part of the community.

Thus it appeared that the measures resorted to by his majesty's government under the circumstances of the country at that time were not only such as parlia- ment had approved, but the most advisable in every point of view, whether as regarding immediate convenience or the effect upon the general financial system of the country. But every plan of temporary expedient must come to an end. The time had arrived when parliament was called upon to adopt a more permanent and systematic arrangement, and to ascertain the real amount of income necessary for the expenditure of the country. It was stated in his fifth resolution, that the sinking fund exceeded the sum necessary to be raised for the service of the present year by about two millions only. That statement was taken from the first report of the finance committee of the present year. But the finance committee had made reports before the revenue had become greater than the expenditure; and those reports extended until the present period when the surplus was 2,000,000l. The whole history of this progress was to be found in the fourth and eleventh reports of the finance committee of the last and antecedent session, and in the first report which had been presented in this. By those reports it appeared, that in the first year of peace a very considerable deficiency existed in the revenue as compared with the expenditure. The expenditure for the year ending the 5th January 1817, was 54,200,000l., while the income amounted only to 51,300,000l.; leaving a deficiency of 2,900,000l. That deficiency was made good in the course of the same year, chiefly by the payment of an arrear of the property and war taxes, and partly by a portion of the unexpended sum of the preceding year. The next year, namely, that ending the 5th January 1818, the improving prosperity of the country was evinced by an augmentation of the revenue, the expenditure being 52,956,000l., and the revenue 52,302,000.; leaving a deficiency of only 654,000l. In the next year, it appeared, that the deficiency was changed into a surplus; for, in the year ending the 5th January 1819, the income was 54,053,937l., while the expenditure was only 52,370,152l.; exhibiting a surplus of 1,683,7852. Still more favourably according to the report of the finance committee might the estimates for the current year be stated; namely, the income at 54,000,000l., the expenditure at 52,018,800l.; affording a surplus of 1,981,200l.

The question for the committee now to consider therefore, was, whether, with so small a surplus, parliament could perform its duty to the public creditor by holding out any prospect of an actual redemption of the public debt? It was evident, not only that with so small a surplus as two millions that could not be effected, but, that if any sudden and pressing call for exertion, in order to maintain the stability and dignity of the country, should arise, we must necessarily be placed in a situation of considerable difficulty and embarrassment; the improvement of the income in order that it might produce a greaser surplus must therefore be reckoned among those measures which were of the strictest necessity. The first consideration however was—what was due to the public creditor on the subject. He knew no duty more solemnly and imperiously called for. In 1793, on the proposition of Mr. Pitt, when that series of loans was commenced which now formed the greater part of the national debt, it was arranged that a sinking fund of one per cent should be provided for the gradual reduction of every loan contracted for by government. It was impossible that, at the period to which he alluded, Mr. Pitt could have had in his contemplation the great drain that that would occasion on the country, in consequence of the number and extent of the loans subsequently raised. At the same time, no obligation could be more sacred than our obligation to provide for the payment of the debt, contracted as it had been for the preservation of the country, and under the sanction of the national faith. The present surplus income of 2,000,000l. was certainly insufficient for the reduction of the debt. His plan therefore, was, to raise that sum to 5,000,000l. In his opinion, a real and effective sinking fund to that amount was necessary, and would be sufficient to improve public credit in a way that would discharge the obligation due to the public creditor. The nominal sinking fund at present existing would of course be reduced 13,000,000l.: it being proposed to apply that sum to the service of the present year instead of raising a loan to its amount. Whether that should be done in the way authorised by Mr. Fox's bill, or by any other means would be a subject for subsequent consideration. The country had as yet had no means of ascertaining what would be the operation of a really effective surplus of five millions. If the effect of the one million as proposed by Mr. Pitt had been proved by experience to be so advantageous, that of five millions when in actual operation must be considerably more so. Still, he thought it would be highly desirable, whenever the circumstances of the country would permit it—and he looked forward to the attainment of the object in a few years—to give an additional security to the public creditor, by carrying up the sinking fund from 5 to 8 millions, which would make it somewhat more than one per cent on the whole of the actual debt. The benefits of such a sinking fund would be strongly felt in various ways;—by the accumulation of compound interest, by the opportunity which the increased value of funded property would give of reducing some of the funds. He did not think he was very sanguine in expecting that great improvement would also take place in the revenue. But whenever a clear surplus of 8,000,000l. became applicable as a sinking fund, the public might fairly look forward to an effectual reduction of the burthens of the country, great national improvements might be undertaken with spirit and vigour, and property might be improved in a degree affecting the interests of every branch of the community. He left it therefore to the House to judge whether the public ought not to be satisfied with an arrangement which thus laid a foundation for general benefit.

He now came, therefore, to the last of his resolutions; namely, that with a view to the attainment of the important object which he had just described it was expedient to increase the income of the country by the imposition of taxes to the amount of 3,000,000l. per annum. Although he should defer any minute statement on this subject until next Wednesday, in the Committee of Ways and Means, he would sketch the general outline of the plan which he intended to propose. He was very ready to admit, that there might be hon. gentlemen, who, approving of that general outline, might nevertheless be disposed to question the expediency of some of the details, when those details came to be submitted to their consideration. To that he could have no possible objection. All that he thought essential on the present occasion was, that parliament should take such a view of the subject at large as to evince their determination to make a great effort in order to place the finances of the country on a stable foundation. Whether that should be done by one tax or by another appeared to him to be a matter of comparative unimportance; although he allowed that care should be taken to select such imposts as might be least injurious to the country. The course which, in his mind, parliament ought to take was, first to show a determination to make a great effort by agreeing to the Resolution, that it was expedient to add three millions to the income of the country by taxation; and then to inquire in what manner the burthen could be imposed so as to be attended with the least possible inconvenience to the various classes of the community. He would now, however, enumerate the articles on which it was his intention to propose, in the Committee of Ways and Means, that the contemplated addition to the revenue should be raised.—The Committee was already aware that there had been at various times a consolidation of the customs, and that a measure of that kind had been in contemplation last year, but had been postponed for the purpose of a more mature consideration of its details. It was also his intention to propose a slight alteration in the duties on various articles; but the only one to which he felt it necessary particularly to call the attention of the House was, foreign wool. The duty on foreign wool was at present only a penny a pound, which was thought too low to protect the interest of the home grower of coarse wool. He proposed that the duty should be increased to sixpence a pound; which would operate as a protection to the home grower of that article against foreign competition. By that increase of duty he calculated that an increase of revenue would be effected of 250,000l. or 300,000l.: which, added to other slight additions to the duties on various articles, might be expected to produce under the head of Customs, about 500,000l. All the other articles on which it was his intention to propose an increase of duty came under the head of Excise. Of these the most prominent was malt. It was not at all his intention to propose the renewal of the whole of the war duty on malt; although he might be allowed to observe, by the way, that the reasons which had been so strongly urged by the gentlemen on the other side in favour of the repeal of the war duty on malt, had proved wholly without foundation. The first of those reasons was, that agriculture would be benefited; the second, that the revenue would be more easily collected, and would perhaps be increased in consequence of the greater consumption; the third, that the price of beer to the working classes would be diminished. He was sorry to say that no material advantage had been derived by the agricultural interest from the repeal, nor had the consumption of malt been increased by it. The accounts on the table would show that in the last year of the existence of the war duty on malt, the amount of malt on which duty had been paid was 26,200,000 bushels. In the succeeding year it fell to 17,000,000 bushels; a circumstance which he was aware was, in a great measure, attributable to the badness of the season. But in the last year the amount rose only to 22,000,000 bushels: being a smaller quantity than when the war duty was in existence. Instead, therefore, of any improvement in the revenue having taken place from the repeal of the duty, the revenue had materially suffered. Nor was the third reason assigned for the repeal of the duty—namely, that it would give the poor the advantage of having their beer at a more moderate rate—proved by experience to be better founded than the others. The price of beer certainly experienced a trifling fall for a short time after the repeal of the duty; but it immediately rose again, and at the present moment it was as high as at the highest periods both of the duty and of the materials. He thought he should be able to prove that the additional duty which he meant to propose, namely, half the existing duty, or one shilling and twopence a bushel, making the whole duty three shillings and sixpence a bushel, would not only not justify the brewers in raising the price of beer, but that, notwithstanding its operation, they might still be enabled to lower the price to the public [a laugh.] He requested that those hon. gentlemen who appeared to be entertained with this declaration would turn their attention to the Report made last year by the committee on the subject of the Price and Quality of Beer; a Report which contained a great deal of very valuable information. They would there see the evidence given by a gentleman of the highest respectability, and whose means of knowledge were necessarily extensive, (he meant Mr. Barclay) with respect to the comparative price of malt and hops at various periods. According to the statement of that gentleman, malt was last year 81s. a quarter, and hops from 24l. to 25l. a cwt. The present price of malt was at the highest 63s. a quarter, and of hops 8l. 10s. a cwt. Mr. Barclay stated to the committee last May, that the aggregate amount of the expense of the brewer in materials and manufacture was at that period 9l. 16s. 8d. the quarter of malt. At the present moment, the expense according to the reduced rate of the materials could be only 6l. 17s. 4d. the quarter. The difference was, therefore, 2l. 19s. 4d.; of which he proposed that only 9s 4d. should be taken by the additional duty for the public service, still therefore leaving to the brewer a profit of 2l. 10s. on the quarter of malt, greater than that which he made last year. The produce of this additional duty he estimated at 1,400,000l.

The remaining articles on which he intended to propose an increase of duty were also under the head of the Excise; although they were principally articles on which a double duty was at present collected in the shape of customs as well as excise. By the double collection of duty, a great addition was made to the expense of management. Government was desirous, therefore, to try the experiment, how far it would be better to collect the duties in question, under one instead of under two branches of the revenue, as it would be a great relief to the merchant to be exempted from the trouble and charge arising out of the double accounts and payments now required. The articles which he was about to mention were subject to considerable adulteration, and various frauds respecting them were practised to a great extent. Now, it was well known, that that branch of the revenue, the Customs, had no means of detecting adulteration or other frauds, after the articles subject to such impositions were given out of the king's warehouses. The Excise, on the contrary, possessed the means of detecting those mal-practices, and had in fact brought to justice many of the perpetrators of them. It was therefore desirable that the articles on which he intended to propose these additional duties should be placed under the branch of the excise rather than under that of the customs. They were—tobacco, coffee and cocoa, tea, British spirits, and pepper. The additional duty which it was his intention to propose on tobacco, he estimated would produce 500,000l.; and he was persuaded that even under that ad- ditional duty, tobacco might be furnished to the public at a much cheaper rate than it was some time ago—he meant, than it was before the close of the American war. By the proposed duty on coffee and cocoa, he hoped to raise 130,000l.; by that on pepper 30,000l. With respect to tea, he proposed an increase of 4 per cent. The present duty was 96 per cent, and he intended to raise it to a round 100. This he estimated would produce 130,000l. He hoped and believed that while these advances would make little or no perceptible increase of price to the consumer, the new arrangements which it was intended to introduce would enable government to follow up the measures for the prevention of smuggling and fraud with such vigilance and effect, as would not only secure the legitimate produce of the revenue, but materially augment its amount.—Only one other article remained—an article, the existing duty on which might be said to be as fairly collected as any in the country; it being in few hands, and those, persons of high character and responsibility—he meant British spirits. He thought that he might fairly estimate the produce of the additional duty which it was his intention to propose, on spirits distilled in Great Britain at 500,000l. The total aggregate of the proposed increase on the various articles which he had named, was, 3,190,000l.; and, allowing for accidental deficiencies and other circumstances, he flattered himself he might fairly calculate on a clear increase to the revenue of 3,000,000l. He would not enlarge on this part of the subject at the present moment, leaving the details until the House should go into a committee of ways and means, and would only therefore recapitulate the various items which he had mentioned; viz.

Consolidation of the Customs, including the 200,000l. of increased duly on foreign wool	500,000
Malt	1,400,000
British Spirits	500,000
Tobacco	500,000
Coffee and Cocoa	130,000
Tea	130,000
Pepper	30,000
Making in the whole	£.3,190,000

Such was the general outline of the propositions which it was his intention to make to the committee of ways and means on Wednesday next. For the present, he would content himself with pressing the attention of the committee to the indispensable necessity of making a provision, either in the way he recommended, or in some other way, for effecting such an augmentation of the revenue as might acquit public honour by placing public credit on a solid and permanent basis. From the official situation which he filled, it had been his lot during the last three years to submit to parliament expedients, temporary in their nature, for the purpose of meeting the current expenditure of those years. The time had at length arrived, when, having minutely examined into all our sources of income—having severely investigated the nature of our expenditure so as to discover what could be retrenched consistently with public security—having come to a determination to restore our metallic currency, and made preparations for the certain attainment of that desirable object—it became parliament to take such measures as might place our finance on a permanent peace establishment. On every ground it was called upon to do this. In the first place, in consequence of the extensive investigations into our expenditure and resources to which he had just adverted, all the weak as well as all the strong points of the condition of the empire were known, abroad as well as at home. By the return of the army of observation from France, and the great reduction which had been made in our military force, we had arrived to that which might fairly be considered the permanent peace establishment of the country. It was not likely that any farther material reduction on that head could be accomplished. On the contrary, it was probable, that some farther expense would occasionally creep into that department of the public service. For instance, it would not be advisable to allow the militia to remain long without being placed in a state of efficiency. That, and some other minor branches of military expense, must be considered inevitable. On the other hand, a gradual diminution of outgoings would unquestionably be occasioned by the falling in from time to time of pensions and other annual allowances ceasing with the lives of the present holders, as well as of various material parts of the national expenditure; but the operation of those events would be so gradual and slow, that it was difficult to calculate the probable period at which, unaided, they would put the country in possession of a surplus revenue of five millions—the least surplus which, in his opinion, it ought to possess with reference to the objects which he had already described. By the addition of three millions of taxes that purpose would be at once accomplished. It was true that the loan of the present year would increase the amount of the debt in a greater degree than it would be diminished by the sinking fund, but then it should be considered that ten millions and a half of that loan would be employed—five millions in a repayment to the Bank, and five millions and a half in the liquidation of the unfunded debt by the payment of exchequer bills;—so that it would be only for the interest of the balance that it would be necessary to make provision. Although it was not to be expected that the new taxes, if adopted by parliament, would be in full operation and production during the present year, neither would all the charges and expenses of the loan fall within that period. He therefore trusted that a considerable diminution of the debt might take place next year, and that in every succeeding year that diminution would increase in amount. It might be supposed, indeed, by some, that a great defalcation would take place in the revenue in consequence of the stagnation of manufactures and trade which had occurred in some parts of the country. He was happy to say, however, that hitherto no such effect was to any great degree observable; and he hoped that the symptoms of reviving commerce which had recently manifested themselves, would put an end to all apprehensions on that score. The revenue of the quarter ending on the 5th of April last, was 230,000l. greater in amount than that of the corresponding quarter of the last yean Since that period, a diminution had certainly taken place, but it was by no means of an alarming nature. The total amount of the revenue for the quarter ending on the 4th of June was short of the corresponding quarter of last year by 107,000l.; being about two per cent on the whole amount of the quarter's revenue, or five millions. He had, however, one remark to make, which would account for a portion of this deficiency; namely, that the corresponding quarter of the last year comprehended one weekly payment of the excise more than the quarter of the present year. Some of the branches of the revenue had increased, although others had suffered a diminution. The excise had fallen off about 218,000l.; but in the customs there had been an augmentation of 84,000l.; in the incidental payments, of 14,000l.; and in the post-office, of 43,000l.; in the stamps there was a diminution of 33,000l. Thus there was a total diminution in some branches of the revenue of 248,000l.; to counteract which, however, there was a total augmentation in other branches of 141,000l.; leaving, as he had already stated, an actual diminution of 107,000l. from the 5th of April to the 4th of the present month. Upon a comparison with the same period in the preceding year, he did not think that the finance committee had been at all too sanguine in expressing their hope, that the revenue of the present year would be nearly equal to that of the last. At the same time, he should perhaps not be justified in expecting any material increase in the produce of the revenue, more especially when the means necessary to be adopted in the way of preparation for the resumption of cash payments by the Bank of England were taken into consideration. He was inclined, however, to think that the alarm which had already been excited on that subject was greater than the circumstances warranted; that no such reduction or stagnation of commerce would take place as that apprehended by some; and that in the end the alarm to which he had alluded would appear to have been much exaggerated, if not altogether unfounded.

Having said thus much upon the situation of the country with respect to its resources, and stated the general nature of the measures proposed by his majesty's ministers for placing the revenue on a stable footing, he might sit down with merely explaining his readiness to afford any explanation that might be required. But, before he did so, he must observe, that his majesty's government were fully sensible of the great responsibility which they incurred in thus proposing an increase of taxation, and of the serious obligation which, if possible, it more than ever imposed on them of managing the resources of the country with the most rigid economy that was consistent with the necessities of the public service. If, therefore, the resolutions already under the consideration of the committee should be adopted, he was prepared to propose a farther resolution, calling on the executive government to exercise the most rigid economy in the administration of the public revenue. He trusted, indeed, that whatever might be the sentiments of the hon. gentlemen opposite, the great majority of that House were of opinion, that the events and measures of the present session had sufficiently evinced the disposition of government on that subject.—There was one topic, connected with public economy, deserving of explanation, on which he would say only a few words—he meant the collection of the revenue. At the present advanced period of the session, no effectual measure could be adopted by parliament to amend the system of that collection; and it appeared to hint, therefore, that the best course that could be pursued was, an expression of the opinion of parliament, that at least such an investigation should be entered into by the executive government as would pave the way for any measure which parliament in its wisdom might think fit at some subsequent period to adopt. The resolution, therefore, which, in the event of the adoption by the committee of the resolutions already on the table, he should propose in addition, was as follows:—"That with a view of accelerating the arrival of that period at which relief may be afforded to the country from a part of its burthens, this House confidently expects that a continued and vigilant superintendence ought to be exercised over the expenditure of the state in all its several departments; and that a minute investigation shall be instituted into the mode and expense of management and collection in the several branches of the revenue; in order that every reduction may be made therein which can be effected without detriment to the public interests." The committee were aware that an investigation of the nature alluded to in the resolution which he had just read had been instituted in the customs, and had been found productive of many most advantageous arrangements; and he hoped that the adoption of some such measure with regard to the other branches of the revenue (as far as it was found necessary and expedient), might be attended with equally beneficial results. He would now conclude by moving his first resolution; namely, That since the termination of the war in 1815, the property tax in Great Britain, and other taxes in Great Britain and Ireland, which yielded a revenue of upwards of 18,000,000l. per annum, have expired, or been repealed, or reduced.

Mr. Tierney

observed, that the right hon. gentleman could not have devised a better mode of throwing ridicule over the government than that which he had adopted. Of all the extraordinary propositions that he had ever heard proceeding from any administration, it appeared to him to be the most extraordinary to desire the House to instruct them in their duty. It showed the want of confidence which they themselves entertained in their own disposition. The right hon. gentleman called on the House to require his majesty's ministers to be economical in their management of the public resources, and promised that he would obey the requisition. It was not his intention to follow the right hon. gentleman through all his details. The fact was, that he should find it difficult to do so. He really could not conceive, nor even guess, what bearing the two first resolutions, namely, that the property tax had been repealed, and that the revenues of Great Britain and Ireland had been consolidated, had upon the business before the committee. He dared to say that it was his dulness, but he really could not follow the right hon. gentleman through all his statements. He did not object to the particular taxes proposed by the right hon. gentleman. His objection was to the abstract proposition, that it was expedient at the present period to lay an additional burthen of three millions on the people. He begged leave, however, to guard himself from denying, that at some future period (although he trusted a distant one) it might be expedient to increase the taxation. His objection was to the particular time and manner adopted. The early resolutions stated a simple matter of fact, on which there was no dispute. Those being disposed of, he came to the plans recommended by the right hon. gentleman. He had to thank ministers for having at length distinctly stated the actual situation of the country. It was that to which they had frequently been urged; but which they had never before condescended to do. The right hon. gentleman had now at last abolished the sinking fund, and told us that we were to start again with a fresh one. The operations of the right hon. gentleman would reduce it to two millions—that was now the whole amount of the sinking fund. Such was the real situation of the country, after all the accounts of its flourishing state, with which their ears had been incessantly stunned during the last three years!—after all the accounts of the prosperity of our trade and commerce, and of the great increase of our exports and imports! Such was the result of the advantages of Mr. Pitt's system, which ministers boasted they had never departed from! Ministers had at length brought the country to a state, which to every man must be galling and melancholy in the extreme. We were called on, in the face of the country, to declare that we were driven at length to be guilty of a breach of faith to the public creditor. He said, guilty of a breach of faith—for the public creditor had a right to look to the sinking fund as a security. But the right hon. gentleman had indeed told them, that the public creditor had no right to look to any thing but what was promised him by the original system of Mr. Pitt. But he begged the right hon. gentleman's pardon—the public creditor had the promise of Mr. Pitt in 1806, that the whole of the sinking fund should always remain secured to him; he had also the promise of lord Sidmouth in 1802. But he begged to refer the right hon. gentleman more particularly to the statement of the chancellor of the exchequer in 1813, when he took 5½ millions from the sinking fund, and proposed a new arrangement, which he assured the country would be from that day found of incalculable benefit to the sinking fund. The right hon. gentleman had then assured the House, that if his plan were only allowed to operate for ten years, it would effect so great a reduction of the public debt, that the fall of interest in consequence of that reduction would be so very rapid, that God only knew what would happen to this devoted country, so rapid would be the fall of the interest of money. The only danger which we had to apprehend would arise from too rapid an accumulation of the sinking fund. The sinking fund, which would have amounted to 21 millions, was then stopped by the plan of the right hon. gentleman, and 5,600,000l. taken from it, for the purpose of relieving the country from the pressure of taxes to that amount. But the right hon. gentleman, when he made this inroad into the sinking fund, assured the stockholders, that if they would have but patience to wait till the period fixed on by him, such would be the advantages which they would derive from the sinking fund, that they would be quite astonished at them. Well, they had given up what was demanded of them, for the sake of the advantages promised by the right hon. gentleman, and now the right hon. gentleman turned round on them and said, "there is an end of the whole transaction: we must now revert to a new order of things—the real sinking fund amounts to no more than 2 millions; but by applying to parliament for taxes to the amount of 3 millions, we shall make it 5 millions." But by this plan the stockholder was held up to public odium as the cause of new burthens being cast on the country [Hear, hear!]. It was stated to be necessary to have an available sinking fund of five millions; that there was but two millions of surplus revenue, and therefore it was necessary to have additional taxes to the amount of three millions. Thus it was made to appear that these three millions were necessary to support the stockholder. But on this subject he had first of all to observe, that when they took 13½ millions from the sinking fund, after the inroad of upwards of five millions which they had formerly made into it, it was vain to say that any faith was kept with the stockholder. The right hon. gentleman would not pretend to say that on the first difficulty which occurred he would not take the whole of it. The chancellor of the exchequer had told them, that he wished to have the sinking fund on such a footing, that in 45 years it might pay off the whole amount of the public debt. It would now be five millions, and he calculated on raising it to eight millions. But he could not pretend to redeem it in forty-five years, except a number of things were to concur to enable him to make the sinking fund amount to eight millions. But let it be considered, that we had already passed five years of peace; and, calculating from what had hitherto occurred in the history of Europe, what probability was there, that peace could be supposed to last fifty years? It was certainly bad enough that the right hon. gentleman should tax them, but it was worse that he should laugh at them. He was now laughing at the whole country; for what could be a greater piece of mockery, than to tell the country that a debt of 800 millions could, by a sinking fund of five millions, be redeemed in any probable period of peace? He wished the right hon. gentleman not to misunderstand him when he spoke of a breach of faith with the public creditor. He never meant to insist on the literal performance of the act of parliament under every combination of circumstances. Indeed he was satisfied that such was now the melancholy state of the country, that they must depart from the line which Mr. Pitt had chalked out, and which lord Sidmouth and the right hon. gentleman wished to adhere to. Their first duty was that to the country at large. He wished if possible to keep faith with those who had lent their money to the state; but after all, they had a paramount duty to the country. He was ready to admit that a very large proportion, and nearly the whole of the sinking fund, might be given up to the exigencies of the country. But then it was too much to hear the necessity for this inroad on the security of the public creditor avowed by the right hon. gentleman without the least sense of shame, after all the boasting and exaggeration in which he had incessantly indulged; to hear him, after having brought the country to such a state, still vapouring and prancing in his old way, and with the same air of assurance and confidence as usual, asking only for 3 millions, and that would infallibly set us all right again [Hear, hear!]. What, it might be asked, have you done with your hundreds of millions? Where was the indemnity for the past and the security for the future? Was it, after all this boasting, come to this, that three millions of new taxes must be imposed, to have a sinking fund? This was the state to which we were brought. Still, however, the right hon. gentleman, with the utmost confidence, told them, they had only to let him have a sinking fund of 8 millions, and they would enjoy all possible prosperity hereafter. For his part, he thought it a great hardship, that the stockholder should be held out to the public as the cause of this increase of taxation. People were already but too apt to hold up the stockholder in an invidious light. It was impossible for them to shut their ears to the observations which were every day made on this subject. He had heard it said,—the stockholders derive already too many advantages—the value of money being increased, and their receipts remaining nominally the same, their income will be improved by so much per cent; and what right have they to any such addition? forgetting all that the stockholder had hitherto suffered from the depreciation of the currency. The stockholders were now laughed at, as well as injured, by the right hon. gentleman.— He did not now mean to say, that it might not be necessary to impose additional taxes to increase the amount of the sinking fund to 5 millions, or that it might not be necessary to do still more than this—but before he declared that these 5 millions were necessary for the purposes which had been stated by the right hon. gentleman, he must be satisfied that the necessity actually did exist, and he should therefore content himself with moving at present the previous question, that the House might not be taken by surprise. With respect to the last proposition of the right hon. gentleman, that with a view to the attainment of this important object, it is expedient now to increase the income of the country by the imposition of taxes to the amount of 3,000,000l. per annum.—On behalf of the country he protested against this imposition of new taxes to the amount of three millions. He knew no state a country could be in which would justify the non-imposition of additional taxes, if this country was not now in such a state. If there could be any one proposition more objectionable than another, it was that of the right hon. gentleman. Without knowing any tiling of the circumstances which rendered this sacrifice necessary, they were called on to lay on three millions of additional taxes, at the mere suggestion of the right hon. gentleman. The right hon. gentleman had dwelt on the advantages which would be derived from the restoration of the currency to the Mint standard. But like all new converts, he went with his doctrines to extremes. There might be inconveniencies attendant on the change, but he thought those inconveniencies were counterbalanced by such advantages, that it would be better to encounter the inconveniencies for the sake of the advantages. But the right hon. gentleman had forgotten that the very alteration in the value of money resulting from this restoration would be in itself a tax. Ministers might be right in endeavouring to restore the value of the currency, and he concurred in thanking them that they did persist in this endeavour, from the bottom of his heart; but he could not conceal from himself that the remedy was one which would be attended with pain, and would have the effect of disqualifying persons from paying the old taxes, to the extent in which it amounted to a new tax. Let them look to the situation, of the country. The right hon. gentleman had said there was a general stagnation of trade. There was, indeed, in every branch of trade and industry, a greater stagnation than was ever before known—there was nothing but distress in every class of our manufacturers—the table was loaded with petitions from the agriculturists—with petitions from every quarter complaining of the insupportable burthen of the poor-rates. And what was the return they were about to make to these petitions? In about twenty-four hours after receiving these petitions, they were to answer by an imposition of three millions of fresh taxes! Could they soberly believe that this would not be attended with the most alarming effects on discontented persons in this country, if they allowed there acre discontented persons? When petitioners came before them affirming that at present, from the effect of taxation, with every exertion they could not possibly subsist themselves and families, were they to be told—"the only sound remedy is, to tax you still more; we grieve only that you nave not been hitherto taxed enough; in relieving you from 18 millions of taxes we acted wrong; but we will retrieve our error as soon as possible, and by way of a beginning, we will now impose on you the sixth part of the taxes from which we relieved you [Hear, hear!]?" Why, this was nothing more nor less than an insult on the whole country. He did not mean to say, that ministers might not be right in endeavouring to place the finances of the country on a permanent footing. But this ought not to be done at a time when it would derange the peace and tranquillity of the country. These things might be glossed over in the House, but they might depend on it, they would not be so out of doors. After the accounts of the flourishing state of the country, which they had so frequently heard from the noble lord opposite, and the right hon. gentleman, and which they had even put into the Prince Regent's mouth at the opening of the session, how would they now view an imposition of 3 millions of new taxes for the purpose of increasing the sinking fund? Speaking as a stockholder, he affirmed, that he would rather content himself with the surplus of 2 millions without new taxes, than have 5 millions as a sinking fund on those terms. He was speaking merely as an individual; but he believed, that the stockholders generally would consider this two millions better than any addition which would be productive of such odium. For, after all, whether there was a sinking fund of 2 millions, or even 5 millions, was a matter of little difference to them, considering the height from which they had fallen. He did not see, under the present circumstances, it was possible to retain the sinking fund; and he found no fault with the right hon. gentleman on this account merely—he lamented the necessity for a breach of faith; but this might be forced on them by their paramount duty to take care of the public safety. But, before consenting to new taxes, it was necessary to convince the country, that they were absolutely required for this paramount object of the public safety, and that every thing had previously been done in the way of economy and retrenchment. And here he was disposed to place first what the right hon. gentleman had put last—he meant reform and retrenchment. He maintained that they had no right to impose a single additional tax till they showed that they had reduced every establishment from the highest to the lowest, to the very utmost that was compatible with the public safety. It would be objected to him perhaps, that no retrenchment to any considerable amount was practicable; but he was thoroughly convinced, that retrenchments compatible with the public safety, might be effected to the amount of one million per annum. The right hon. gentleman had himself allowed, that something might be effected by a different mode of collecting the revenue; but he was sorry to say that he did not much trust in his discoveries. The noble lord, too, when he moved for the appointment of the committee of finance, had said that this should be the last year of its sitting. This had not much the appearance of economy, especially when it was recollected how that committee had discharged its duties. Had that committee examined into the nature of any public offices, except those connected with the army and ordnance? Had it ever attempted to probe matters to the very bottom, as had been done in that committee over which their late speaker, lord Colchester, and another hon. gentleman in his eye (Mr. Bankes), had so ably presided? No, nothing like it: every thing that came from that committee, came in a round about way, from the ministers themselves; just as if it were an offence for any body but themselves to say that ministers were to be trusted in matters of economy. All the great reductions which had been made had literally been forced upon them. The transition from war to peace had indeed obtained for us a less numerous army, and a less navy (and if ministers had not made a reduction in both, they could not have walked the streets in quiet); but in the expenses of the establishments necessary for their regulation, no reduction whatever had been voluntarily made. When the army estimates were before the House, he had said that it would be impossible for him to point out each item that was improper, or to say what might be saved here and what there; but still he maintained that a large reduction ought, and with proper attention might be easily effected. It was for the principle of economy that he combatted, and against that principle ministers as vehemently contended. His friends had tried them upon the question of the two lords of the admiralty. These lords had only 1,000l. a piece, so that the saving which they had proposed only amounted to 2,000l. per annum; this, it was said, was scarce worth talking about: he allowed it; but maintained that the principle on which the reduction was founded was invaluable. Good speeches might be made in defence of these two lords by those who had even less ability than those who usually defended them; but it was not a good speech that would satisfy the country on such a subject—nothing would do except economy. The right hon. member then adverted to the magnitude of our military establishments, which, if they were not reduced speedily, would end in our total ruin. Much had been said of the imposing attitude which we preserved towards Europe: he wished to know which of these two attitudes was the most imposing—to keep up a large army whose expenses we could not pay, or a small army whose expenses we could pay, and whose numbers we could increase whenever we had occasion for them. But then, it was hard, very hard, to part with a little patronage. Yet before they taxed the meanest beggar in the country, he had a right to say to them, "Show me that you have avoided all unnecessary expenditure." But this his majesty's ministers could not show, because they had been guilty of the most profuse extravagance. They had maintained an army which was too large both for the safety of the country and of the constitution, and had then made it an argument for increasing our ordnance establishments, because a large army always required a large ordnance. To compensate, however, for this increase, they had made great reductions in the navy; greater reductions, indeed, never had been made in it than were made at present, and the reason of it was this—our navy officers could not bow or scrape as well as the officers of our army, nor play off with equal agility the tricks and artifices of skilful courtiers. And yet, as our navy could stand our guard when our army could not, the reduction ought not to have been so disproportionate in the two services. Low as it had been made in the one, it ought to be made still lower in the other; and if the noble lord's assertion be true, that we are likely to continue at peace with all the world, let him show us his belief of it by another reduction in our military establishments. The army, however, was not the only department of our expenditure in which great savings might be accomplished. The expenses of many of our colonies might be diminished; a consolidation of offices under the revenue might take place, and the office of a third secretary of state might be entirely abolished. Indeed, he saw no more reason for a third secretary of state than he did for a third archbishop. The necessity of a board of control might also be taken into consideration. Indeed, the affairs of Ceylon and the Mauritius rather belonged to the office of a noble lord than to the office in which they were at present transacted. Might it not also be advisable to look at the Horse-guards, and to consider the necessity of having a secretary-at-war in time of profound peace? It might be uncomfortable for hon. gentlemen to hear of such reductions, but it was scarcely less uncomfortable for him to come forward and advocate the necessity of making them. He had much rather live at ease in the country, and see gentlemen at the head of large establishments, indulging the hospitality of their tempers in feasting and revelry, than propose such retrenchments as he now felt it his duty to propose; he had as good a turn for the luxuries of this world as any member on the opposite benches; but still as they had now been vapouring and prancing for many years, and as the bill was brought in, it was fit that they should pay it, and "pay it you shall," said the right hon. member, addressing them, "if ought I can say has any weight or influence in this House." "But then," say the supporters of the present system," if these reductions are made, no administration can possibly stand. "He maintained, that any administration which owed its continuance in power to such support as this extravagance supplied, ought not to stand for a single moment; and added, that no administration could be strong in public opinion except that which took care that every farthing of money exacted from the public was expended in real and not in nominal services. These observations were forced upon his mind by the actual state of the country, which was so melancholy that every sacrifice ought to be made by those in power previous to any application for new taxes. But it was now argued, that though the present measure was one of the strongest necessity, the country had such confidence in his majesty's present advisers as not to have any objection to acceding to it. He would allow that the division which had taken place on the motion submitted by himself to the House the other night on the state of the nation, was such as to show that the House had the most implicit confidence in the noble lord and right hon. gentleman opposite; he would allow that they were the best, the wisest, the most economical, and the most consistent ministers that could be found in the country [loud laughter]; yet still, allowing all the merit that was due to that overpowering majority, he must say that, if his motion had been carried, they would have been doing on the 18th of May what they were now proceeding to do on the 7th of June. The right hon. gentleman opposite says, "a great saving in the collection of the revenue can be effected; leave it to me, and be assured that I will accomplish it." With all due deference to the chancellor of the exchequer, he would not leave it to him; as soon as he did leave it to him, there would be a long farewell to all economy and retrenchment. But when the right hon. gentleman promised retrenchment, it was only right perhaps to ask, for what was all this retrenchment to be made? For the sinking-fund? But if he had not been economical for the people of England, was it likely that he would become so for the sinking fund? The strongest excitement which he and his colleagues could have to economy, would be a reluctance on the part of the House in granting the supplies, if the ex- hibition of that reluctance could be made without occasioning a pressure on the people. For his own part, he was sure that if they had the money given them, the country would hear no more about their economy till they had occasion to apply for some again; for he was certain, that in their natures they abhorred economy, and that they never would practise it, unless it was forced upon them in future as it had been forced upon them in the past. Whenever and wherever they had resorted to it, they had resorted to it to stifle what they called the clamour and impatience of the populace; and had never made any reductions voluntarily, except those which were occasioned by the transition from war to peace. He again repeated his assertion, that by a careful attention to our expenditure, 1,000,000l. might be annually saved to the country. Our situation, though one of difficulty, ought to be looked fairly in the face; we might want taxes, but we ought to try every expedient before we resorted to new ones. There was the sinking fund—of which it would be better to take the whole, than to leave 2,000,000l., and add 3,000,000l. in taxes. One thing extraordinary in the conduct of the ministry was, that they did not come forward with an acknowledgment of their errors. He had himself doubted of the necessity of the last war, when it was originally commenced; and now that the heat and passion which prevailed at its commencement had subsided, he still retained the same doubts; but whether that war was necessary or not, the profusion with which it had been carried on was quite unparalleled: he had no hesitation in saying that it might have been concluded at half the expense by which it was concluded. He therefore asked the ministry to confess the embarrassment by which they were surrounded. They had indeed said, that during the last three years something awkward had happened; but that was the severest term which they could be induced to apply to the distresses of the country. He again repeated, that great reductions must be made, if the government wished to render the taxes at all palatable; and concluded his speech by observing, that he should not say any thing at that time regarding the particular taxes which it was proposed to levy, as his objection was, to the levying of new taxes at all. He should therefore move the previous question on the two last resolutions.

Lord Castlereagh

said, he would not trouble the House at any great length, because the real question was contained in a very narrow compass. There were three considerations upon which it rested; the first was, whether the country, under its present circumstances, was necessitated to make any financial efforts at all; the second was, the magnitude of those efforts; and the third, the time when those efforts ought to be made, if it should be judged necessary to make them at all. But before he entered upon these subjects, he must make a few observations on what he must style the preliminary remarks of the right hon. gentleman opposite. The burthen of the right hon. gentleman's song all the evening had been, "I have no confidence that the ministers of the Crown will dispose of the supplies in a proper manner, and I therefore call upon the Crown to dismiss them." This was all natural in the right hon. gentleman; he could not help feeling sore upon the division against him on a former evening, and angry at the members who had swelled the numbers against him. He could assure those gentlemen that they were already registered in the right hon. gentleman's black book, and that they could never purge themselves, in the right hon. gentleman's opinion, of the guilt which they had contracted by voting with ministers; no, not even by voting against them on the present occasion. The right hon. gentleman had said, that it they had voted with him on a former evening, they would have discussed on the 18th of May what they were now discussing on the 7th of June. With due deference to him, that was not correct: if he had succeeded in his motion of the other evening, the Crown must have looked out for other ministers; and, in that case, he was inclined to think that the right hon. gentleman, with all the dangerous responsibility which he had described as likely to attach to any person who now took up the reins of administration, and with all the ill-health, which no man could regret more sincerely than he did, that the right hon. gentleman was subject to, would not have been able to prove himself so efficient a minister as to enter so soon upon the duties of his office. The noble lord then maintained, that the present administration had proceeded with the utmost rapidity in making all the economical arrangements in their power, especially in the army, navy, and ordnance departments; and argued that it was not fair to accuse them of extravagance, because they had thought it requisite to retain the two lords of the admiralty, against whom such loud and violent declamation had been lately uttered. Indeed, these two lords of the admiralty were always used as a stalking-horse, wherewith to frighten ministers; whilst, on the other hand, the reduction of them was always the nostrum recommended by gentlemen opposite to remove the grievances of the country. The right hon. gentleman had also protested against the finance committee, and in every case where the committee had not been nominated by himself, had represented it as a grievance. When that committee was originally appointed, he (lord C.) had said, that the House would see whether the government were not willing to carry the principle of reform as far as was possible. He would merely refer to their conduct in regard to drawbacks and bounties in the collection of the revenue. In fact, in a future session, it would be the duty of the committee of finance to charge itself with the important subject of drawbacks and bounties. He was also disposed to complain a little of some of the other preliminary observations of the right hon. gentleman, and particularly of those which were intended to convey a false impression into the country. Surely this attempt was not only unworthy of the high station which the right hon. gentleman held in the House, and of his great knowledge upon subjects of this nature; but very nearly half of his address had been employed in insinuating alarm into the minds of the public creditor, that ministers were meditating a breach of faith; that the object of the proposition of the chancellor of the exchequer was, the destruction of the sinking fund, as established by Mr. Pitt, and afterwards modified by parliament. Yet nothing could be more unfounded than such a supposition. Nothing like an invasion of the sinking fund had been contemplated. The arrangement of to-night was perfectly consistent with its perfect existence; for the resolution was simply to put into operation the clause which Mr. Fox himself had introduced. Such, however, had been the right hon. gentleman's impetuosity of blame—such had been his determination to find fault at all events, and to harangue about economy—that he could scarcely allow the chancellor of the exchequer to open his plan before be rose to object to it. Yet, when truly viewed, it was in principle the very measure which an hon. gentleman (Mr. Grenfell) had brought forward on a previous night, but which he had not dared to press to a division; and which was then premature, because it was the wholesome practice of parliament not to pledge ministers upon any particular details, until the whole of their system had been duly digested. His lordship was persuaded that not a single observation had fallen from his right hon. friend, the chancellor of the exchequer, in the course of the session, that was inconsistent with the perfect operation of the Sinking Fund act, and of the clause that bore the name of the individual by whom it was proposed. At the same time, ministers did not mean to assert that the provisions of that act, at all times, and under all circumstances, could be literally executed; and here the right hon. gentleman had introduced what every stockholder knew as well as himself, that if it were to go to the extremity of accumulation, so far from being for the interest of the public creditor, it would be destructive of his property, and of the other property of the country in general. There would arrive a period when parliament must look at the interests of all parties, and perhaps put a stop to the accumulation of the sinking fund, for the national benefit and security. He therefore protested against the misrepresentations which the right hon. gentleman had attempted, and from which his own better knowledge ought to have repelled him.—The first question which the country ought to look at in a fearless and a manly way was, whether it ought to be satisfied with its financial situation in time of peace; or whether some effort ought not to be made to enable it to meet the burthens of a new war, should such calamity unfortunately visit it? This was a subject of immense magnitude—a subject independent of all parties, and of all party interests; and "I conjure you," (said his lordship) "not to suffer any feeling of respect for the government, if such exist, to divert you from the strict discharge of your duty. If you do not in your conscience believe that the existing government can be trusted—if you think them incompetent in talent, or in prudence, or in honesty, you owe it to your own character, to the best interests of the state, not to hesitate a moment in carrying that opinion to the foot of the throne, and to call for the dismissal of those indivi- duals. I should hold that the government was indeed degraded; that it was indeed unworthy of the confidence of the Prince who has so long trusted it, of the people who have so long relied upon it, if, after the expression of such an opinion, it were base enough for a moment to continue in office: if the House refused ministers its support, if it denied them the means of conducting the affairs of the kingdom, they ought instantly to retire to make way for others, in whose favour the wishes and hopes of the country were united. I conjure gentlemen not to trifle or tamper with this mighty question; let them put government wholly out of their view, and let them decide upon the broad and substantial merits, not upon any consideration of who may or who may not be in power. The question is not between ministers and their antagonists, it is between parliament and the country—between the representatives and their constituents; and it would be disgraceful to the House if, at such a time as this, it could at all contemplate party interests and political motives. I say, and I say it with all humility, that as servants of the Crown we should be unworthy of our stations, if while parliament withheld the means, we still persisted in retaining the reins of government. We claim to be armed with weapons to meet the difficulties and dangers of the state, and if we are not to be intrusted with them, we are willing to resign to more favoured, perhaps more able, but not more zealous champions." [These passages were delivered with great animation, and were received with shouts of approbation]. His lordship went on to contend that a saving of 2,000,000l. annually was not sufficient to enable the country to meet with firmness the shock of a future war. The right hon. gentleman had taunted him with opinions he had expressed early in the session. He would not retract one iota of what he had then advanced, not because he was ashamed to do so if truth would warrant him, but because all he had asserted had been borne out by subsequent inquiry. He had asserted from 2,000,000l. to 2,500,000l. to be the surplus of the revenue, and the report of the finance committee corroborated the statement. He had maintained that the country was in a state of prosperity, and he was willing to rest the confirmation solely upon the evidence of the hon. member for Lancaster. He had also contended that there was a fair prospect of further improvement; and who had ventured to contradict him? He was not at all disposed to deny that retrenchments could be made in quarters not yet examined; but taking it on the right hon. gentleman's own showing, that a million could be gained, it was still clear that the measures now proposed were necessary for future safety. Yet the right hon. gentleman had contented himself, as usual, with broad and bold assertion, and had not condescended to fix upon a single item from which economy could be produced. His lordship insisted that the country ought not to be satisfied with its financial situation. It was a clear proposition of state policy, that no country could be considered safe, which did not in time of peace make such a progressive reduction of its debt as would enable it to meet the hazard of a future war. The burdens of one war ought not to be allowed to accumulate on those of another, until the vessel of the state became, as it were, water-logged, without a chance of reaching port, and dreading destruction from every approaching wave. It was the duty of the House, therefore, without the slightest delay, to take such measures as would reduce the debt to such limits as might be deemed, under all the circumstances, expedient. The proposition of the chancellor of the exchequer was not intended merely to favour the stock-holder; it was to benefit the nation at large, which could not be secure until the debt had been reduced. This process ought to be begun with a sinking fund of not less than 5,000,000l.; progressively ascending to 8,000,000l.; leaving it to the wisdom of parliament to decide, whether it was fit that the accumulation should continue further, or whether the still growing surplus should operate a remission of taxation in favour of the people. After such a war, and such enormous financial exertions, some limits ought unquestionably to be put to the burdens of the people; but if the argument of the right hon. gentleman meant any thing, it meant that the effort now recommended was too insignificant. Did he mean to countenance the notion, which no man who had one clear idea on the subject of finance, would support, that 15,000,000l. instead of 5,000,000l. should be annually operating the reduction of the debt? If it did amount to that, unquestionably the first act of parliament ought to be to diminish that sinking fund, which would be in truth most injurious to the whole property of the kingdom. If the dispute were as to time and amount, and not as to tax or no tax (for that was conceded) then came the question, whether 5,000,000l. was the proper sum to be named? and examining the details, it might be found that there was a peculiar claim upon the House to impose taxes at the present moment. The consolidated fund, looking at the charges upon and the sums payable out of it, never stood in a situation like the present; and when the right hon. gentleman spoke of breaches of faith, he might properly and fairly have argued, that parliament would have been guilty of a breach of faith to the public creditor, if it had not taken some steps upon the subject; for at present there were not assignable ways and means to pay the public creditor, and to provide for the sinking-fund out of it. In this view, if the chancellor of the exchequer had called upon the House for less than 3,000,000l. he would not have done his duty, with a view to rendering the consolidated fund equal to the burdens it had to sustain. There was now no surplus upon it which the chancellor of the exchequer, as formerly, could bring forward for the current expense: and by the union of the exchequers of Great Britain and Ireland an additional weight had been laid upon it of not less than 4,300,000l. If, then, it was true, according to the right hon. gentleman, that 5,000,000l. were too little, and that 8,000,000l. were scarcely enough; and if, it was true that 1,000,000l. might be spared in other ways; and, according to another hon. gentleman, great savings effected on drawbacks and bounties, what did it prove, but that the relief which the plan contemplated would be much sooner attained? Then came the serious question, when the reduction of the national debt should cease, how far the anxiety of the people to be relieved from taxes ought to be attended to; and how far the forebodings, perhaps justifiable, of an approaching war, ought to be allowed to operate a still farther diminution until the threatening cloud should have blown over? His lordship should consider the nation in a proud situation in point of finance, with a sinking fund of 8,000,000l.; and an almost inexhaustible reserve of 15,000,000l. in the shape of a property-tax, should the threats of a daring enemy and the dangers of the kingdom render it necessary for ministers to call upon parliament for a renewal of that mighty source of revenue. However unwilling a minister might be upon points of speculative policy to call for this aid, yet his lordship confided on the energy and wisdom of the nation to grant it, should a case of necessity arise. It had already consented to the sacrifice on the return of Buonaparte from Elba; and he did not doubt that, should a new expensive war visit the country, the government would again be armed with this massy and impregnable shield [continued cheers]. Starting then at 5,000,000l.; some assurance might be felt, that at no distant period the produce of the sinking fund might be applied to the diminution of the taxes; and what were called the dead expenses of the country, in pensions, &c. to the army and navy, would probably be annually reduced to the amount of 150,000l. What might be the growth of the revenue, it would be idle to speculate; but not to entertain sanguine hopes would be to belie the result of all experience. It was, of course liable to fluctuations; but it had always, upon the whole gradually and sometimes rapidly ascended, and it was undeniable that its natural tendency was, to augment. Upon this and other points, he was by no means gloomy in his expectations and he agreed with the right hon. gentleman that it would be highly satisfactory if, by the influence of a large sum upon the market, and other favourable circumstances, the funds were so raised that the 5 per cents or 4 per cents could be paid off. He saw the less reason to despair of witnessing this epoch in our history, from a recurrence to the year 1792, when the 3 per cents were nearly at par; and now with a sinking fund of 5,000,000l. in the first instance, gradually increasing, there seemed little room for melancholy reflection. It was not to be forgotten that before the end of the war the people had borne 18,800,000l. of taxes, which they had since not been called upon to sustain; they had borne them, not without some degree of suffering, but, unquestionably, without any diminution of the general prosperity; therefore, when government now proposed only to revive 3,000,000l. of those taxes, it placed a firm reliance on the courage, as well as on the wisdom of the nation, which was always anxious to meet its difficulties: it only required to have them pointed out, and means of removing them were afforded without reluctance. "Then," said the right hon. gentleman, "what a set of wretched ministers those must be who did not come earlier, who kept the secret until so near the end of the session." The House, however, had been repeatedly told, that the most proper time to meet the difficulty was when its nature and extent could be best ascertained. Ministers had always professed to look forward to a period when it might be necessary for them to make a new effort of taxation; and as to the time for this call, his lordship fairly avowed, that except for particular circumstances, it might have been made with more advantage at the beginning of the next session than at the present moment. An examination of the affairs of the Bank had, however, been deemed requisite, and that had led to a general view of the financial state of the country: having thus sifted the difficulties to the bottom, he most egregiously mistook the temper of the people, if it would have been possible for ministers to prorogue parliament, without attempting to remove them; if they had yielded to any wish for postponement, they would indeed have met parliament next year with merited reproach and ignominy: then, indeed, the right hon. gentleman might have launched out against those who had allowed the country to brew and ferment upon its embarrassed situation—who had permitted the difficulties to accumulate, to heat, and ultimately to endanger the prosperity of the realm, perhaps without the hope of a remedy. How would the public mind have been inflamed if the discussion of future taxes had been left to county and town meetings? How would the evils have been exaggerated by mistaken views of policy not separable from the debates in parliament; not separable even from the enlightened speeches of the right hon. gentleman! Ministers would not have been able to pass a very pleasant summer, if, instead of submitting the subject to the great council of the nation, they had listened to the advice of the right hon. gentleman, to allow it first to be decided in parish meetings and village conventions. After all there was no proposition so difficult to be argued as one that was self-evident; and so obvious was the course that ministers had pursued, that few but the right hon. gentleman could be found to complain of it. The question resolved itself into this—ought the country to be satisfied with its financial situation? The right hon. gen- tleman himself was far from being satisfied upon it: he seemed to hold out a prospect that he would have made a much greater effort; that instead of 3,000,000l. of taxes, if he had been minister, he would have proposed 10,000,000l. His advice upon this and some other subjects might be very good, but he doubted whether the country would be willing to pay the additional 7,000,000l. to obtain it [a laugh]. His whole speech went to show, that ministers ought to be turned out of their places, because they did not propose 10,000,000l.: at all events, an effort ought to be made. The present government thought 3,000,000l. sufficient, and they had also thought it better to submit it to parliament rather than to the provinces. The next point was, was the present fit time for making an exertion? Upon that his lordship wished to join issue, and he was as little apprehensive for the result as he had been on a former night, when the voluntary confidence of the House had exceeded even his most sanguine expectations. Then it was that the grand question, for which the other side had so long waited, was decided, and when the House of Commons had had the courage to declare by its vote, that it placed more reliance on the measures of ministers than on the speeches of their antagonists [Continued cheers].

Mr. Brougham

said, he was quite ready to meet the noble lord on the ground where he had planted himself: he had undoubtedly put this most important of all questions to a fair and intelligible issue; and it was simply this—whether at this particular moment it was fit that the House of Commons should give its assent to a motion for raising 3,000,000l. of taxes from the pockets of the people to be placed at the disposal of the existing government? It was certainly possible to contemplate a period at which parliament might be justified in entertaining such a proposition; but he entreated every gentleman calmly and dispassionately to reflect, whether he could make up his mind to vote that that period had arrived, or whether on the contrary, recent measures had not put a bar to the consideration. He would first endeavour to set right his right hon. friend in the eyes of those who had been present only while the noble lord was speaking, and who contrived, with some ingenuity, but with very little regard to correctness, to misrepresent the address of his right hon. friend who had preceded him: there was nothing in the spirit, purport, or analogy of the speech of his right hon. friend, which could warrant for a moment the gross perversions to which it had been subjected. The first misstatement was as to the time when new taxation might be necessary. His right hon. friend had not said that the time had arrived, but that it might arrive; but he went so far even as to assert, that he did not think it would arrive; yet the noble lord had not scrupled to assume that he had admitted the whole question, by allowing the immediate necessity of increased taxation. An imputation had been thrown out against his right hon. friend of raising a clamour against all taxes whatever; but his right hon. friend had said, "Don't let it be supposed that I mean to make these objections against taxes generally; that I mean to contend, that at no time, and under no circumstances, may additional taxation he imposed upon the country; but this is not the time." The time might arrive when, refreshed by a long interval of peace, and by those habits of industry which always together induced such a consequence, that accumulation of capital might take place which might put her in a more advantageous situation. A time might arrive when the people should have enjoyed that just and necessary repose, which they were so richly entitled to, by their sufferings, their blood, and their toil; by their patience under those sufferings, by their constant and devoted attachment to the interests of the country, and still more by their firm resistance to all those attempts which had been made to seduce them from their duty;—the time might arrive when, thus situated, they would stand in a different relation to such a proposition; but now to interrupt their short breathing time, in their present exhausted state was not only most indecent, but, to use a still stronger term, was a most atrocious attempt to increase the oppressive burthens of a people thus suffering, patient, and deserving. If any one had only heard the noble lord's statement, he must have supposed that his right hon. friend had been contending that these 3,000,000l. of taxes were not sufficient, and that instead of them he wanted 10,000,000l. It had puzzled him to account for the noble lord's former misunderstanding; but just now he caught, as it were, a glimmering of the reason why the noble lord had here so mistaken, or, to express himself in a parliamentary sense, misstated the reasoning of his right hon. friend; but he protested against any mode of reasoning which could give the noble lord a right to assume that the right hon. member had said that 3,000,000l. were too little, and had only objected, because the sum was not rather 10,000,000l. There was another thing which, in justice to his right hon. friend, he must take notice of. It was said that nothing could be more unfair than for him to oppose a plan which was, in fact, a leaf taken out of their (the opposition's) book. But his right hon. friend's objection was, to one point, and the noble lord's to another. His right hon. friend did not accord with this plan, inasmuch as it took a large part of the sinking fund away so as to leave but just a sum which it was proposed to increase to 5,000,000l.: a new sinking fund, of that magical amount and number, which had been so often repeated, and which, it would seem, was not to be exceeded. His right hon. friend had said to his majesty's ministers, "You have at last spoken out; you have at length told the country truly, that they have no real sinking fund but 2,000,000l., and that liable to the services of the year." The whole gist of his right hon. friend's argument was this—that in consequence of the present pressure, and of the direful and insuperable necessity which resulted from it, they would be compelled to break faith with the stockholders, inasmuch as a new sinking fund was to be given them; whereas they had lent their money on the notion, at the time, that there existed a sinking fund of 15,000,000l.; and which, but for the arrangement in 1813, would have been now 21,000,000l. The noble lord said, there was no question on which he was so little disposed to meet his right hon. friend as one of finance. The reason was, because it was generally a question of arithmetic, which prevented the noble lord from entering into vague generalities. This part of the question was perfectly plain, and could not be obscured by words. In the year 1786, a sinking fund was created of 1,000,000l., to which 200,000l. were afterwards added, making altogether 1,200,000l. In 1792 the appropriation of so much of every loan to this fund was determined on, which gave an assurance that at the end of 45 years from the period of each loan's being contracted it would be extinguished by the operation of the sinking fund. In 1802, a new arrangement was made by lord Sidmouth, of which it was not at present necessary to say much, because, although there were many objections to it, it did not much postpone the term. Then came the operation of the year 1813, which consisted in postponing the payment. The consequence of that operation was, to reduce the sinking fund in the mean time (which if it had continued and gone on without it to the present day would have been 21,000,000l.) to 15,000,000l.; but the terms made in 1813 with the stockholders, which were so made in language as distinct as could be made use of, were, that the then fund should be sacred. Now came the present plan; but nothing was done to redeem their pledge—nothing done to preserve faith with the public creditors. All the sinking fund had been taken away, except only 2,000,000l.; and it resulted, that, instead of loans being diminished or extinguished, they were going to substitute for a sinking fund of 21,000,000l. one of 5,000,000l. Did not all this put the fundholders in a very different situation? And he would ask whether, to all intents and purposes, the faith of the public was not broken with them? He did not, however, complain of this; it was dreadful, but it was unavoidable; we were reduced to it by absolute and dire necessity. They must pay their army, their navy, their judges, their civil, military, and legal establishments; this was matter of stern necessity; and as such, it could not be helped. The stockholders must be content to go on with a sinking fund of 5,000,000l., according to the right hon. gentleman opposite, but which, according to gentlemen on his side of the House, did not amount to more than 2,000,000l. in fact. That any of the papers on the table could make it out otherwise he would defy gentlemen to prove, even if they looked over them to the end of time; so that the great difference was this—here was a sinking fund of 5,000,000l., which it was said might increase to 8,000,000l.; whereas it ought to have been 21,000,000l., and increased to 30,000,000l. He was most truly sorry for this inevitable breach of faith; but he felt that it could not be prevented. As far, however, as he could prevent it, there was one farther step which should not be taken, one weight more which should not fall upon the people: he would not consent that at the end of such a war, and in the very infancy of peace, new taxes should be imposed on them, new burthens, new impositions, which they could not pay [loud cheering]. The proposition of his majesty's ministers should have been shown to be founded in absolute necessity; nothing but the most pressing and serious emergency should have been appealed to by them for their justification. The defence of the public liberty—the protection of the empire threatened by a war—these were the only circumstances he could at present contemplate, that would go to make out a case sufficient to justify such a proposition as the present. Supposing the people to remain, burthened as they were, and drained by the existing taxes, he could hardly imagine any case, short of a war, that could justify the government in laying on fresh taxes; and he was tempted to add, in almost no other case ought the finances of the subject to be farther encroached upon. But, if a war should make it necessary, or if the operations of finance should require the means of the public to be still farther taxed, he must concur with his right hon. friend, that it would be childish, or he should rather say it would be base, to raise a clamour against taxes thus indispensable.—The question, therefore, was, was there a case before the House to justify such a step? The distress of the agricultural and manufacturing interests, it was admitted on all sides of the House, were very great. He had heard it admitted in a speech of great eloquence from the right hon. chairman of the Bank committee, that the truth must be spoken: that this was not a transitory evil, but had its root and origin in the pre-sent state of the country. If so, was it not the more necessary to consider what was likely to be its nature, and what the necessary result of their present measures? What, also, it behoved the House to consider, might be the effect of the resumption of cash payments, and the intermediate steps which it was proposed to take before that great object was achieved? This he considered a problem of great difficulty. He knew some persons, honourable friends of his, and whose opinions he always received with the utmost deference and respect, who, in treating this question, and viewing it with relation to its effect upon the price of commodities, had first endeavoured to ascertain what was the limit of depreciation. For this purpose they had taken the Mint and market prices of gold, and finding the variations between them from 3l. to 4l. per cent, they considered that to be the limit. It would have been, perhaps, proper to have taken it at 5 per cent, which was the rate of difference a little before that period, and at which it had continued for some time; the other was the variation as it existed at the time. Now, whatever the steps were which might be adopted, a certain time must elapse before the resumption took place; they had no right, therefore, to take the present price, and to judge from that; but it was a safer course, he thought, to consider it as 5 per cent. Assuming that, then, as the limit of the depreciation, he should proceed, speaking with unfeigned doubt on a subject, as he had before said, of so much difficulty; but he thought it was as well to make the assumptions, because it was found that the rise of prices had followed pretty closely such limit or rise. He did not wish to mingle other subjects with the consideration of this; but it was necessary to advert to some other points in order the more fully to elucidate it, and to show that the limit which the operation at present pursued with respect to the currency was of itself a tax upon the country. He could not see why that limit of 5 per cent was to be taken as the limit of depreciation. It might be so, but the reason on which his doubt was founded was this: from the period at which the depreciation first took place in the value of the currency, that is, from its minimum to the time at which it reached its maximum, there was a rise of prices of all commodities (excepting some few, which, from the quantity of the material, the cheapness and extensive use of machinery, or other local causes, were cheaper) greatly beyond the proportions of the market price over the Mint price of gold. That price was once 30, and very generally 20 per cent higher; but when that rose to 20 per cent, the price of all the articles of living, &c. rose to 100 per cent and upwards. This was owing to the influence of a great many circumstances which never affected the price of gold. The depreciation of Bank notes was attended by a proportionate rise of gold, and when the rise on the price of gold was about twenty per cent then, it was rather rash now (looking at the present price of gold), it was hardly possible or justifiable to believe, that the difference between the Mint and market prices being abolished, the amount of the depreciation when the Bank should resume cash payments would be 5. per cent only. For hit own part, he certainly expected a general depreciation, much greater than 5 per cent, when the operation he spoke of should have taken place. It appeared to him, that although hon. gentlemen might differ as to the means, there could be but one opinion upon the expediency of the Bank resuming cash payments as speedily as possible: in whatever way, and at whatever time that took place, a general depreciation in the price of all goods, of stock, and the rents of Houses must ensue. The very minimum would be 5 per cent, possibly 7, 8, or even 10, but at the least farthing 5 per cent. With the rents, the value of all stock, and of all income derived from that value, must fall at least 5 per cent also, and not impossibly 10 per cent. Now, by this depreciation of their means, perhaps as much as 20 per cent would ultimately be sustained by the payer of taxes; and yet it was proposed to burthen them with 3,000,000l. additional taxes! Why, if there was any consistency among his majesty's ministers, or any of that lenity that the chancellor of the exchequer was always vaunting, and which he so much eulogized, but which expired in 1816 with the property tax—a tax which he could never open his mouth without singing its requiem, or rather chanting its dirge;—if they possessed any of that boasted lenity, instead of laying on 3,000,000l., they would have studied every means of taking them off. They would not have suffered a word on the subject: if they were proceeding upon a system of unsparing retrenchment and economy, they would have endeavoured to devise, hot the means of proving this dreadful necessity, but the means of sparing the people from its operation, and the effects of that great depreciation to which he had adverted. Every one of the taxes this night proposed was a money, not an ad valorem tax. Where the means of paying it were thus depreciated, they were laying not a duty which would fall the lighter on account of the depreciation, but a dry, hard money tax, which pressed heaviest on that part of the community to whom money was most indispensable. It could not be said, while they were calculating on a quantity of money, that they knew what its value was. The pound note might be worth 18s. or 22s. for what they knew; for, under present circumstances, he might say money had not attained its last shape nor determinate value. To talk of laying on so many millions, was to talk in ignorance—to aim a blow in the dark, which might fall they knew not where. On these grounds, he could not refrain from telling the noble lord, that at no time, in no period of the history of the country, was a more unfit opportunity than this ever selected for laying on such taxes. The noble lord had expressed great indignation at his right hon. friend for expressing his want of confidence in the government as to any desire of alleviation; and had maintained that his majesty's ministers had shown every disposition to economy. How had they shown it? Really, he must be allowed to use the expression, but he had from their conduct a right to assume, that in spite of themselves some expenses had been retracted; and to suppose that the same sums were still to be voted for the equipments of our army, or the fitting out of our ships, was indeed ridiculous. But what other reductions had they made? The noble lord had said, "You talk about retrenchment; why do you not enter into more particular details?" Now, his right hon. friend had expressly declared he would not enter into details, but would point out only the quarters wherein retrenchments might be effected. To begin, then, with the collection of the revenue; he would ask, whether it was or was not true, that that one great branch of the revenue, the excise, had offered to the government to collect the other great branch of it, the customs, at the same low rate at which the excise itself was collected by that honourable and upright board; whose zeal in the discharge of their duty, fidelity to the public interest, and conscientious integrity, rendered any attempt to give them sufficient praise hopeless. [Hear.] Was it true that they had offered to collect the customs at 5 and a fraction per cent, instead of 13½ per cent, the expense of the present collection? Was it true, as it should seem from papers before the House, that by the last returns, the very remarkable circumstance was observable of the expense of collection, this year, as contrasted with the last, exceeded those of the former by 1 per cent additional? Last year they were 12 and a fraction; this year 13½ per cent. Here, then, was one chapter of his right hon. friend's budget, by which alone 500,000l. a year might be saved to the country, [great cheering]. Had he not a right to assume, from this, that a really sparing, considerate, and economical administration, might find other branches of the revenue in which similar savings might be made?—He would now mention one other instance, in which although any saving to be effected was not comparable to the last, yet it was a matter of the highest importance to the country. He meant the state of those offices which were paid by fees, or poundage, as it was called. They were not only a large and needless expense, but they were sinecures which harboured nests of placemen, and extended the patronage of the Crown through every part of the country. If hon. gentlemen would take the trouble of looking at the returns which he moved for about two years ago, they would find that about 120,000l. were annually paid to persons called receivers of the land tax, receivers of assessed taxes, and distributors of stamps. These were persons doing their offices by deputy; merely reserving to themselves the signature of receipt. But for merely doing this, they had various salaries from 700l. up to 5,000l. a-year. He did not mean to say that they could be all done away with; but why did not ministers make a better bargain for the public? These were not the patent places, which the holders would tell you they had paid for, and would defend; why, then, were these not attacked? Let those who had, for instance, 4,000l. content themselves with 1,000l. a-year; and those with 700l. take 250l. or 100l.; they would be glad to get it for doing nothing. The comparative smallness of a tax must always be viewed in reference to the means which existed for supporting it. He only hinted at this consideration, on account of what appeared to be a sort of defiance from the noble lord—a defiance intimating that the present measure would be supported by all those who had recently proved themselves the friends of administration. The noble lord appeared moreover to signify, that the calls for retrenchment and economy, made on that side of the House, were little better than mere words. In delivering his own opinion upon that subject, he was at the same time expressing the sentiments of many, when he stated his belief that in numerous departments of the public service considerable reductions might be made. Many offices in the revenue were nearly useless, and might be abolished; in others, additional duty might be attached, and a saving effected in that manner. Above all, he must declare that he should never feel satisfied till some general measure of reduction in the amount of public stipends, proportionate to the difference of prices, and to the augmentation which had been made on the sole ground of that difference, was carried into effect. This, however, was a subject on which it might be impracticable to legislate at present, or to form any decided opinion on, till the currency of the country had taken a more settled form. But did he expect any endeavours for accomplishing this object to be made by the present ministers of the Crown? Certainly not. He entertained no such fallacious hopes. He knew well that they did not wish for it, and he knew also that if they wished, they had not sufficient confidence in their strength to dare the attempt. They might vapour with respect to the face of their late majority; but the fact was, that they were not in a situation to face their own 350 friends. The clerks in office could hardly be depended upon. The cause of all their weakness and uncertainty was, that they had no root in the esteem, the confidence, or the affections of the people. Until they could stand on something firmer than the basis of a casual majority, until they could command something more than success upon a question purposely raised to give them an advantage, a question which bore the resemblance of a mere party or personal contention, he would warn the noble lord not to put his faith in the flattering tale which that majority might suggest. It had been composed of persons acting from various motives, and from those prejudices which were inseparable from the decision of all such questions. The noble lord had derived from those inveterate prejudices a support, which he grossly deceived himself in expecting to retain as the means of carrying into effect whatever measures he or his colleagues should propose. The noble lord had indeed said, that the House, after its late vote, was bound in justice to confide in the financial arrangements brought forward by the ministers of the Crown. If such were the natural consequence of that vote, he should deplore it more than he did at present. He would ask of every man whose vote had been solicited or wheedled from him on that occasion, whether he conscientiously believed that the people at large were in a situation to pay more taxes; whether his constituents were not in circumstances that made it an act of cruelty to add to the burthen with which they were already oppressed? Nothing had been advanced in justification of increased taxes but the gratuitous assumption, that we ought to have a sinking fund of 5,000,000l.? The noble lord must surely recollect the extent as well as nature of Mr. Pitt's original plan. It might be easily shown, that Mr. Pitt was of opinion, that a sinking fund of 1,000,000l. bore a due proportion to a debt of 240,000,000l. According to this rule, a sinking fund of 3,300,000l. would be sufficient for the present amount of our debt. Instead of raising it to 5,000,000l. for no other purpose than to make a parade of figures, he should be content to leave it at 2,000,000l., to which he should be happy to add whatever might be procured from retrenchment, which, if vigorously prosecuted, would probably yield 1,000,000l. more. This was a plan more suitable to the slate of our resources, and calculated in some degree to maintain that policy which, in the event of future disturbances in Europe, it might be necessary for us to adopt. It would be a more certain way of husbanding our resources than that of keeping up a large sinking fund by taxes, that dried up the fountains of revenue, that oppressed industry, and discouraged the employment of capital. Every gentleman who heard him must, if acquainted with the recent history of the duties on wine, on tea, and on coffee, fully understand how their real produce was affected by an increase or diminution of their amount. If the money were left in the pockets of the people, instead of being taken away to accumulate at compound interest, it would be employed much more productively in augmenting the wealth, and nurturing the legitimate resources of the country. We might then be enabled to meet sudden alarms, or foreign hostility, in an attitude which we could not otherwise assume. The noble lord, in eulogizing the extent of the national resources, had referred to the income tax as a means in reserve, by which a sum of 15,000,000l. might be annually raised. He was happy to reflect that we had not so far forestalled our means, that we had not drained this great source of revenue in times of embarrassment and danger; and he earnestly hoped, that, by a policy not more wise than it was just, we should grant to the people that relief which they had so dearly earned, and which he sincerely believed was the true mode of preparing for a fresh contest, if such a calamity should befall us, with undiminished confidence, and unimpaired resources.

Mr. Huskisson

observed, that the opinions of the hon. and learned gentleman did not appear to be in strict consistency with the views taken by the right hon. gentleman (Mr. Tierney). The right hon. gentleman had treated the question as one that involved a breach of faith with the public creditor, and had argued, that by the proposed arrangement, the sinking fund was effectually taken away. He admitted, most distinctly, that in the fifth year of peace it was necessary that a full exposition of our financial system, in all its parts, ought to be submitted to parliament. This exposition had been made by his right hon. friend, the chancellor of the exchequer, and the House was now put into a situation to exercise its judgment upon any new or practical measure that might be recommended. The measure now under consideration could only be justified on the principle of necessity; and it was upon that point alone that they were at issue. He had hoped that this would be the view which would be taken of the question on all sides, and that it could have been discussed without reference to the lords of the Admiralty, or to any of the persons exercising the functions of government. It certainly did appear to him, that for some time after the gigantic and unprecedented efforts which this country had made, palliatives ought to be administered, but that it was essential to our security to return as soon as possible to a sound system of finance, and to look our difficulties in the face. We could not disguise either from ourselves or from foreign countries what our real situation was. The continental powers were exerting themselves to place their finances on a right footing. Russia had been endeavouring to restore her circulation to its former value; Prussia was acting the same part; and Austria had established a sinking fund. If they turned their attention to France, it would be seen that, after all her sacrifices and contributions, she was now, in a financial point of view, in a state of comparative prosperity. The last budget submitted to the legislative council indicated a revenue equal to the maintenance of every establishment, corresponding with the rank and station of France amongst the powers of Europe. She had a bonâ fide sinking fund, equal, in proportion to her debt, to that origi- nally provided by Mr. Pitt. This proportion was 1 per cent upon the aggregate amount of the debt; and the debt of France being 170,000,000l. sterling, her sinking fund was at this moment 1,700,000l., accumulating at compound interest. What was there in our situation that should induce us to act upon a different policy? We had a debt of 800,000,000l., and a sinking fund of 2,000,000l., amounting only to one-fourth per cent on the debt itself. The plan under consideration would raise it to 5,000,000l., an amount not equal to what he thought right, but which would alter the proportion to that of 5–8ths per cent. Reference had been properly made to the consolidated fund as to a subject of the first importance; but the right hon. gentleman had certainly made no great discovery in pointing out its late deficiencies. The quarterly returns made them very generally known. It was, however, equally certain that these deficiencies ought to be supplied. The maintenance of the consolidated fund was bound up with the honor and credit of the country; but the case was this—that we had imposed upon it charges which it was inadequate to pay. Parliament had held out to the country that this fund should form the security of the public creditor, but it had subsequently overcharged it. For thirteen years after the peace of Amiens, it afforded an annual surplus of 3,500,000l., and we had always been taught to look for the existence of some such surplus. The words of the appropriation act pointed out the destination of this surplus. Its first recital related to it, and it appeared to have been always in the contemplation of the legislature. Since the last peace, however, there had been a falling off: there was at first no surplus, and the deficit now amounted to 1,885,000l. This deficit had existed for the last two years, and was to be ascribed in the first instance, to the consolidation of the Irish with the British revenue. In stating this, he did not mean to say that Ireland had not contributed to the full extent of her means; for his persuasion was, that it was the want of capital alone that had checked the progressive augmentation of those means. Be that however, as it might, it had entailed on the consolidated fund an annual charge of 8,815,172l., but the act to which he had before alluded contained a clause that specially provided for rendering the con- solidated fund equal to all the charges which might be fixed upon it. The account ordered in that clause had, very properly, every year since been laid before parliament. It was not as yet prepared for this year; but last year it appeared, that, for the preceding two years, the amount of the interest of the Irish debt exceeded its permanent revenue by 2,000,000l. The deficiency of consolidated revenue, as compared with the charge for both countries, last year exceeded the sum now proposed to be raised by new taxes. By an arrangement, which left this deficiency to be made up by the Bank, we had placed the public credit of the country, and the public creditor, at the mercy of that corporation, which might at its pleasure refuse to pay the dividends. He knew that the Bank had too much confidence in the national resources, too much public spirit and patriotism, to refuse to advance the necessary sums when applied to; but he would also contend, that the credit of a great country like this, the maintenance of the national honour, ought not to be intrusted to the discretion of any corporation, however well disposed and however respectable. He owned that it was with a feeling of surprise and regret, that he heard the right hon. gentleman, who had on all former occasions stood forward as so strenuous a defender of the sinking fund, after lamenting the breach of public faith, which faith was not broken, and after attributing that breach of faith to a necessity which did not exist, consenting to sacrifice that fund. He would not now, in answer to the right hon. gentleman, go at present into a detail of all the advantages which this fund had contributed to the internal credit and external security of the country. He was not now called upon to defend it, because it was not attacked, and he hoped he never should. He hoped gentlemen would always remember the great purpose for which it was instituted, and that they would never show a disposition to violate the most solemn pledge which parliament could give to the national creditor, or think they could promote the public interest by surrendering public honour. It had been the fashion to consider the public creditor as the only person interested in the application and preservation of the fund; but this was a proposition from which he entirely dissented. The interests of the nation were as much connected with it as those of the individual fundholder. If any gentleman was disposed to doubt this, he would only beg leave, in order to remove his doubt and produce conviction, to refer him to the state of the country in 1783, at the conclusion of a long and disastrous war, and before the sinking fund was created. The debt was then about 230,000,000l., and the revenue such as to exhibit a deficiency or to afford no surplus for its diminution. The only question among the politicians of that clay was, not how they could reduce the debt, but how they could raise taxes to pay the interest and to support the establishment of the country. But at that time the resources of the nation were intrusted to the direction of a man whom no obstacles within the range of possibility to surmount could finally oppose, and whom no difficulties in the accomplishment of his object could deter. Mr. Pitt saw that the situation of the finances exposed us to danger in the event of any fresh war, and afforded us no hope of seeing our burthens reduced during peace. By his eloquence he roused the nation to a sense of its danger, and by his energy and perseverance he rescued it from its embarrassment, providing in the course of three years a revenue that not only was sufficient to support all the national establishments, and pay the interest of the public debt, but afforded a surplus for a real and effective sinking fund. Had his lamented friend not taken that course, or had he followed the one now recommended by the right hon. gentleman, we should not have had that fund which had since supported public credit, and enabled us to display that power which had gained us such influence in Europe, and brought us so much character and glory. In 1786, then, the sinking fund was first established; and here he could not but remark on the strange observation of the hon. and learned gentleman, who had said he would wait for some declaration of war, or some insult to our national honour that would lead to a war, before he would consent to impose new taxes to relieve us from the weight of our public debt. If we waited till then, we should wait till it was too late. On the contrary, it was our duty, and ought to be our policy, to make present exertions for our future relief during peace, and as the best preparation for carrying on hostilities with vigour and success, should a war be unfortunately rendered necessary for the protection of our in- terests or the assertion of our honour. When gentlemen spoke of the hardships of the present taxes, it might not be amiss to remind them of some of those which existed before 1792, which were that, year remitted. These taxes had been borne for many years; they had been acquiesced in with patience, and yet they were such as no minister of the present day would dare to propose. They were four in number, all direct taxes, all in the class of assessed taxes. The first was an assessed tax, on what?—on female servants. The second was a tax on carts and waggons; the third was a tax that would not now be thought of for a moment, namely, a tax on cottages with fewer than seven windows; and the fourth was a tax of a halfpenny a pound on tallow candles. The situation of the country was now very different from what it was when the first sinking fund was created. The nation had then just concluded a long and disastrous war, by an ignominious peace. Now we had concluded a long and successful war, with glory to ourselves, and with that advantage to Europe, which was likely to secure the continuance of peace. But though our present situation of tranquillity were not likely soon to be disturbed, it behoved us, as the best security for its duration, to prepare for the necessity of sustaining the future exertions of war. In pointing out retrenchment as a means of reducing the public debt without an increase of taxation, the hon. and learned gendeman had departed from the cautious and prudent course of his right hon. friend. The latter confined himself to the bare mention of 1,000,000l.without going into particulars; the former had unfortunately exaggerated the sum and specified the items of saving. His first object was, to abolish altogether the board of customs, and to transfer its functions to the board of excise, by which he said, a saving would take place in the collection of the revenue of the difference between 13½ and 5½. This project, he had moreover said, had been suggested by the board of excise itself. The thing appeared so absurd, that he wondered the hon. and learned gentleman could give credence to it one moment. But how could the hon. and learned gentleman, who was so zealous a defender of the rights of the people, who declaimed so much against the property tax on account of its inquisitorial character, and proposed that a conflagration should be made of all the returns connected with it, reconcile his feelings to introduce the excise system into all the transactions of the country? Did he not know that almost every article that paid custom duty was likewise subject to an excise duty, and would he propose to follow it into every manufactory, into the shop of every dealer, and intro-duce the vexations of the excise into all the business of life? He did this because the System of the board, as he called it, was admirable. But was the board of customs established for nothing else than the collection of revenue? Did it not sec that the navigation laws were observed, and perform several other functions? The plan of uniting the departments of excise and customs was so absurd, that it could never have been suggested by any board in its senses, and could never have been entertained by any ministry that did not wish to throw the country into confusion. Then as to the hon. and learned gentleman's allusion to the stamp distributors, he was quite mistaken in supposing that such a sum as 4 or 5,000l. a year was granted to any distributor, as that sum was divided among the principal and his deputies, for whom the former was always responsible, while he received no more remuneration than was really due for his responsibility and trouble. He agreed with the hon. and learned gentleman, that it was desirable to reduce the poundage upon the collection of the revenue, as far as that reduction was practicable; but the branch of the revenue to which the hon. and learned gentleman alluded was one to which that principle was not applicable, as he had found when connected with the Treasury, and when a considerable reduction of this poundage took place in various departments. He thanked the House for their indulgence, and should sit down, resolved to give his cordial vote for the resolutions submitted to the committee.

Mr. Brougham,

in explanation, expressed his surprise that the right hon. gentleman could have attributed to him the invidious doctrine of recommending the excise duties, attended with domiciliary visits. Every gentleman who had done him the honour of listening to what he had said, must be aware that nothing which fell from him bore the slightest reference to such a proposition.

Mr. J. H. Smyth

felt anxious, upon a question of such vital importance, in which every man, whatever his rank in life might be, was interested, not to give a silent vote. He thought it was due to the chancellor of the exchequer to say that he appeared this night to show a disposition to look the real danger of the country in the face: he was ready to admit, that its situation required an exertion on the part of the people, and that an available surplus for the extinction of the debt was necessary; but before ministers required the increase of taxes, it became them to show, and parliament to demand, whether the reduction in the public expenditure was so great as might he effected. As a member of the finance committee, he thought himself justified in saying, that very considerable reductions might be effected. The first branch of expenditure in which economy might be enforced was, the collection of the public revenue. This was thought to be a fair object of inquiry at the commencement of the session, and it was accordingly proposed; but the noble lord opposite said it might be done in the finance committee. Up to this moment, however, no such inquiry was undertaken.—The second branch in which some saving might be effected, was in the estimates of the military service. But why was not a committee appointed by the House, for the purpose of ascertaining what reduction might be effected in every branch of the public service? Let the result of this inquiry be first ascertained, and if the object of ministers to place the revenue five millions over the expenditure were not thus obtained, it was then competent for them to demand from parliament an increase of the public burthens. But until this was effected, he did not think they had made out a case to justify their present demand upon the public.

Mr. C. Calvert

felt himself bound to rebut the false imputations which had been cast by the chancellor of the exchequer upon the gentlemen connected with the breweries of this country. He begged most earnestly to protest against the truth of the observations which had been made, and was fully prepared to answer them by entering into a minute statement of figures. He would not, however, at present trouble the House with the investigation, but he pledged himself to give a full and complete answer to these false accusations whenever the malt tax should be brought under the attention of the House.

Mr. Scarlett

said, he had listened to the speech of the right hon. gentleman opposite (Mr. Huskisson), and agreed with him as to the advantage of having the debt of the country diminished. But the question immediately before the House was, whether they should now impose new taxes to the amount of three millions, on the people? On this they were first to consider, whether any public exigency required the adoption of such a measure, and secondly, whether, if necessary, the present was the best time for imposing them. This point they could best ascertain by looking to the present situation of the country. It was admitted by the chancellor of the exchequer and the noble lord opposite, that there was at present an excess of revenue over expenditure, of at least 2,000,000l. and yet they thought it necessary to demand an increase of taxes to the amount of 3,000,000l. What was the public exigency that required this increase? They were told by the noble told that peace was fully established in Europe, and that no interruption could be apprehended to the present tranquillity. Where, then, was the public exigency? But perhaps the public were able to bear these additional burthens; and it might be argued, that the people were so well able to endure this increase of taxes, and were so very willing to pay them, that advantage ought to be taken of so favourable an opportunity, and they should not wait till the time, when the public exigency was more pressing!—[Hear, hear.] Was the establishment of a sinking fund this public exigency? It might, perhaps, seem presumptuous in a man of his habits to enter upon the discussion of such a question as the present, and still more presumptuous at so advanced an hour to occupy the attention of the committee; but he could not avoid saying a few words on this subject. He admitted, that there was a great advantage in a sinking fund during a time of war; because it kept, up the price of the funds, and thereby enabled the government to raise money for the public service, at a rate more favourable than it might otherwise be obtained; but he was one of those who thought the benefit of a sinking fund in time of peace very problematical, because it, in his mind, was too frequently abused from its proper purpose, and gave an extravagant ministry greater facilities of gratifying their propensities. When Mr. Pitt established the sinking fund, it was the opinion of that great financier that when it amounted to 4,000,000l. the consideration of its disposition ought to be brought before parliament; and when, in 1802, when lord Sidmouth was at the head of the administration, to which Mr. Pitt afterwards acceded, it was proposed that the sinking fund should be made applicable to the public service, it was then thought that during war the sinking fund should not be touched, but that in peace it ought to be applied to relieve the public from some part of their burthens. He declared that his sentiments on this subject were not influenced by any consideration of party feeling, and that no man ever entered the House more indifferent than he was about place; but he should net vote for any ministry who would, in time of peace, propose an increase of taxation to the amount of 3,000,000l. In relation to the 3,000,000l. of additional taxes, he might ask, what was there in that sum that made it so peculiarly delightful, that no amount either beyond or within it, seemed for a moment worthy of acceptance? The chancellor of the exchequer summissa voce, and the noble lord in a louder strain, had declared that they must have this sum or resign. What did this mean? Simply this—that the noble lord and his colleagues having discovered, by the vote of the other night, that they stood high in the favour of the House, in the insolence of triumph, called for another instance of confidence, and made it even a point of honour that they should be allowed, with a sweeping majority, to add 3,000,000l. more of taxes to a country already overwhelmed. This fresh imposition on the people was to be the test of the House's affection for ministers. There was, it appeared, by the statement of ministers, two millions excess, and yet they called for additional taxes to the amount of three millions. Why not put that, two millions by, as an accumulating fund, or lay out the two millions annually to redeem the public debt as far as it would go, and thereby serve the very purpose for which, amongst others, it had been called for? The debt they owed was nothing else but the taxes they paid; and it was delusion to talk of the wonderful properties of the sinking fund. The chancellor of the exchequer had said, we should husband our resources and economise our expenditure; but he had discovered a new method of doing so; namely, by forcing money from the people's pockets. Taxes could not be obtained without cramping industry; and of all the modes of improvement which he had ever heard, the imposition of additional taxation was the most strange. Would the people, paying now to the last farthing, be the better able to support a new war? Would the ability to bear additional burthens in necessity, be aided or improved by supporting them when uncalled for? No; they would not, they could not. He felt every confidence in the ordinary resources of the country, if left a little to repose and gather strength from their recent exhaustion; and the accumulating fund to be constituted by the two millions of surplus, would tend in no inconsiderable degree to lessen the enormous pressure of an overgrown public debt. A great deal had been said about the consolidated fund, but its importance became lessened, when it was discovered that the sinking fund was charged upon it. He never heard of a country being enriched by taxes; although it was not a very unusual mistake to take an increase of taxes as a proof of wealth. True, a large revenue could not be paid or maintained without wealth; but a large revenue was not in all cases to be taken as evidence of wealth. When he looked at the state of the times, at the sufferings of the poor, the wages of labour unable to support the labourer or mechanic, after four years of peace taxes exorbitant, the landed interest supporting a pauper population, and the real estate of every gentleman lessened in consequence of taxation full 20 per cent, or twice as much as the property tax repealed, he could not see how the ministers of the country could possibly come forward and seek to add to the calamities that stared every man full-fronted in the face. Humanity abhorred it as much as sound policy; and a regard for the people's interest condemned it. If they could show that a necessity, above all law and all consideration, existed for making the demand, he should be the last man to oppose it. But, on the contrary, they were told that the peace was consolidated by the wise counsels of the noble lord; and yet in the very midst of peace, and without urging the shadow of an excuse for imposing a new tax, they asked the parliament to sanction their demand. The time of making the demand was particularly unfavourable, and new taxes would only serve to keep it so. The committee was called upon to say they thought three millions of fresh taxes ne- cessary, at the very moment when the government said they had two millions above the expenses of the country. He did not consider such a sum to be at all necessary, or if necessary, he did not think the condition of the country such as to enable it to pay it. He apologised to the committee for having so long intruded upon them, but he trusted that the interests of the people would not be neglected, that their sufferings would not be increased; and that he might not increase them, he would most cordially vote against their being granted.

Mr. Bankes

said, he would be the last man to agree to the additional burthen of 3,000,000l. unless he felt it to be a matter of necessity; but feeling it to be such, he should accede to the proposition of the chancellor of the exchequer though at the risk of being deemed a participator in an act of "atrocity." The hon. and learned gentleman who spoke last had pretended to disqualify himself as being unacquainted with the subject; but in the course of his speech he had shown himself so deeply versed in it, as to be able to bring new lights to it. He had made the discovery that though a sinking fund might be useful in time of war, it was good for nothing in time of peace. He humbly submitted that Mr. Pitt had been of a different opinion, that the right hon. gentleman (Mr. Tierney) who understood the subject if any man in the country did had expressed a different opinion. So had Mr. Fox and Mr. Sheridan—indeed, all who had ever spoken on it, excepting the hon. and learned gentleman. It should be remembered, that this fund began in peace; that it could not have begun in war; and as a ground for cherishing it, he would say, that if any one thing had operated more mainly than another to bring the country through its late tremendous struggle to its present pitch of glory, it was that very sinking fund for which the hon. and learned gentleman professed so much contempt. It was true, Mr. Pitt had said, that when the fund reached 4,000,000l. it ought to come under parliamentary discussion; but if the proportion of the funded debt of that time was compared with the proportion between the debt and fund at present it would be found to be far less than the rate contemplated by Mr. Pitt. Indeed, if the country could bear more taxation, it would be proper to fix the sinking fund at the rate of one per cent on the amount of the debt. At all events, faith would not be kept with the public creditor unless as near an approach as possible was made to this principle. But what had most astonished him in the debate this evening was the conduct of the right hon. gentleman (Mr. Tierney) who, thinking, as he always had done, that the sinking fund was essential to the national credit, should object to a plan which tended to maintain it in its integrity; nor could he have believed unless he had heard it, that a gentleman who complained so much of expedients of a temporary nature should set himself with equal obstinacy against a systematic arrangement. The hon. and learned gentleman had argued as if the existence of peace warranted the dilapidation of this fund; but who would guarantee the existence of that peace even for a short time? For his own part, he would not take the word even of the noble lord opposite as a guarantee of its lasting even for a year. This he knew, that whether we had external enemies or not, we had a tremendous foe at home in the public debt; and unless we provided for its extinction in time of peace, we should go with crippled means into a war, and be obliged to take an inferior rank among the nations of Europe. The prevention of such an evil was to be purchased even at the risk of some unpopularity.

Mr. Canning

wished, before he commenced his observations on the question, to know whether it was the intention of the right hon. gentleman to meet it with a direct negative, as the previous question could not be put in a committee.

Mr. Brogden

said, that the general course in a committee was, to move that the chairman should leave the chair. He had suggested that course to the right hon. gentleman before, and he appeared to him to acquiesce.

Mr. Canning

said, that the substantial point he wanted to arrive at was, whether the question was to be met by a direct negative. That point being now established, he should proceed to the question before the committee. Whatever, then, might be the merits of the proposition of that night, one thing was certain, that the committee would abandon its duty to the House and to the country, if it departed without coming to a decisive vote, leaving the country a prey to all the apprehensions and alarm to which the exposure of the disease, without the application of the remedy, would subject it. If they did not give it their support, better at once meet the proposition with a direct negative, than follow the shuffling and evasive course recommended by the right hon. gentleman. He had, throughout the session, whatever had been the subject of discussion, indulged in one continued taunt against the ministers, that they did not dare to look the financial state of the country in the face. He had said, from time to time, that they had no plan, no object, but temporary relief, and his whole language when fairly interpreted was this—"Come not with your shifts and expedients, look the distresses of the country boldly in the face, dare to expose your imbecility and nakedness to the scorn of your enemies, and the curious gaze of the world: and then"—what then? I will move to adjourn the committee and refuse to deliberate on any mode for your relief. You will do your part in making a full disclosure of the wants of the state, and this shall be your reward—I will oppose all you recommend; I will provide no substitute for your plan; and as far as I am able, I will not let you know whether I will assist you or not." There might be two or more modes of relieving the distresses of the country, but this mode adopted by the right hon. gentleman of calling for a committee in order to record the urgent wants of the state, and then to deny ministers the means of obtaining any discussion of a possible remedy, was of all others the most extravagant and unintelligible. If a ministry had acted so with respect to an opposition, that would be bad enough; but in a candidate for the ministry, who valued himself forsooth on his frankness and sincerity, who was all openness and disinterestedness [a laugh!] such a proceeding was the most whimsically contradictory, that had ever been engendered by the blunderings of party spirit. The House had a right to call upon him to adopt the plan now proposed or to suggest some substitute; at any rate, if he left the inquiry altogether, the House had a right to say to him—"Your demand for investigation has sprung from idle curiosity, and not from any wish to remedy the evil." Suppose the ministers had not laid their case fairly and fully before the committee, what would the opposition have said then? Would not each man in his district, and all their trumpeters throughout the kingdom, have deafened us with exclamations, "why were we not chosen ministers; how different things would have been if we had governed the coun- try! Then you should have known your incumbrances to the lowest mite—then we would have exposed the utter hopelessness of your resources, and then we would have left you precisely as you were!" Absurd as this was, it was a fair representation of the conduct of the other side of the House. Their object had been merely to expose the nakedness of the country, to throw discredit on the ministers; and then, as far as they were concerned, they were content to let the nation work out its salvation how and when it could. His hon. and learned friend (Mr. Scarlett) had expressed himself with some indignation, as if ministers had brought forward this plan to night in the mere insolence of triumph, on account of their majority on a late occasion; but he could assure his hon. and learned friend, and this not on the mere word of a minister, but the honour of a man, that long before that most injudicious motion which had been so beneficial to the ministry had been discussed, they had determined to lay before the House the measure of to-night, and to stand or fall by that measure. It was not mere bravado to say that the strength of the administration distinctly rested on this question. They were perfectly convinced that the measure now proposed was absolutely necessary for the safety and prosperity of the country, and being so convinced, the same motive which induced them to bring it forward, and especially in a season of distress like the present, must force them to leave their places unless they carried it. This must be their course, not merely as matter of taste and feeling, but of common prudence also.—It would have been much better for the purpose of the right hon. gentleman to have mot his proposition with a direct negative; because then, if his opposition had been successful, it would have carried with it an impression of the incapacity of ministers, an impression which the right hon. gentleman was so anxious to make on the public mind. The choice would then have been between the present administration, with three millions of additional taxes, and an administration composed of the gentlemen opposite; without any new taxes; and thus something would have been thrown into the scale on their side. But the right hon. gentleman had cautiously avoided holding out any prospect to the country, that if he were in office he would not be disposed to increase the taxes; he had guarded him- self to this effect in the beginning, in the middle, and at the end of his speech.—"I am not against the taxes, I only do not wish them to be laid on at this time. In the heat of June, with long debates and late houses, I am not able to take office; but in the cool of February next, if I can get into office by that time, I shall have no objection to vote the taxes which I now refuse." The House knew, when gentlemen came into power from the other side, on what sweeping principles they acted; and he thought it not improbable that if such a change were to take place, those who were now satisfied with three millions of taxes, might hear a proposition for raising five millions. The right hon. gentleman should rather have said that he would have no taxes at all, and then as a non-taxing minister he might have had some claim to popularity. The right hon. gentleman feeling himself pressed to say something about retrenchment, had given it as his opinion, that a saving of 1,000,000l. might be effected by a system of economy in every department; but although a variety of measures for the reduction of the expenditure had been discussed, he could not see any thing approaching nearly to 1,000,000l. in all the proposals for retrenchment which had been made by the gentlemen opposite. He recollected, indeed, that a plan for retrenchment in the collection of the revenue had been suggested on the other side; but strait was the path, and narrow was the way that led to this desirable object. In this Thermopylæ were planted 300 surveyors, and over their dead bodies must the way to this retrenchment be forced. The principle on which the present measure was founded was, that in order to enable the country to emerge from its internal difficulties, and to present an external front to Europe, it was necessary to have a surplus revenue operating as a sinking fund. He was not competent to discuss the principle of a borrowing sinking fund; but he was convinced of the necessity of an absolute surplus to do the business of such a fund. He was bound to give every member of that House credit for rectitude of motives; but if he had at an earlier part of the session accused the right hon. gentleman of that inconsistency of which, on his own confession, he now stood convicted——

Mr. Calcraft

here rose to order. He could not listen in silence to the foul, offensive, and unparliamentary aspersions which the right hon. gentleman had passed on his right hon. friend, and on all around him. His hon. friends had all stated that the country was at present in such a situation that it could not bear any additional taxation; they said, that they were not against taxation, but that they wished the measure to be postponed. And was there any tiling so shocking in this, as to warrant the epithets which had been applied to them by the right hon. gentleman?

Mr. Canning

thought that in debate there was tolerably fair room to give and to take. Whenever the terms "indecent and atrocious," which had been applied to this proposal, were retracted, then, and not till then, should he retract the epithets which he had applied to the conduct of the gentlemen opposite.

Mr. Calcraft

went on. He had nothing to do with any other persons expressions. If his right hon. friend thought those epithets applicable to the measure before the House, he had a right to use them. He would briefly state his view of the question. It might perhaps be said, that he was one of those who had goaded the administration on to the present disclosure of the state of the country; but, admitting that he had urged the necessity of an inquiry, where was the pledge on his part, that he would support the measures that might be proposed for meeting the exigencies of the state? They were all agreed in their desire to meet these exigencies; but it was remarkable that not one of the gentlemen opposite had looked to the internal state of the country, to the petitions on their table, or to the distress of which these petitions complained. They only looked to the country as a subject of taxation; but he looked at the state of the people, and must say, that this was not a time for imposing fresh taxes. He had, God knew, no more confidence than his right hon. friend in the present administration; but if by the beginning of nest session, he should find the country in a better situation, he would agree to support the present administration in imposing additional taxes. He repeated, that it was solety on account of the internal state of the country that he opposed the measure at present. And was this a cause for the taunts of the right hon. gentleman? Did he think that his own recent conduct was forgotten? that it was not recollected how he had reprobated the gentlemen by whom he was now surrounded; how he had lampooned the friends on one side of him, and betrayed those on the other? Topics enough occurred to him, which, if followed up, would recall recollections that would make the right hon. gentleman repent his attack. He, indeed, of all persons, to make such an attack!—To charge others with inconsistent, cowardly, and shuffling conduct! He might be a splendid orator, but he showed in this that he had not much judgment.

Mr. Macdonald

begged the attention of the House for a few moments. Of such members as were in the last parliament, he would ask whether they had not seen ministers at the beginning of the peace sit down without any regular plan of economy? Whether they had not seen them oppose the first motions of retrenchment, and whether they did not seem determined to suffer the country to groan under the heavy pressure of a war establishment in time of peace?—a system with which they would have continued, had they not been deterred from it by the strong voice of the public opinion without doors, and by the honest vigilance of those who strove to give effect to that public opinion within. Those members who had sat in the last session could never forget, what was the kind of retrenchment which ministers had thought fit to recommend. They began by an attempt to cut away from the poor pensioners. They wished to pare away the humble mite of the widow, in order to aid the labouring treasury. But the House had honestly interfered, and prevented this ungenerous and unjust attempt. The poor widow was considered to be the fit object from whose scanty stipend some paltry savings were to be made. She was to suffer because she could only complain; but if it was proposed to remove any of the large incumbrances on the public purse—if it was desired to touch one of those golden baits which were held out for veering politicians—if any of these were proposed to be touched, then it was said, the state would be undone—the public business could not be carried on.

The committee divided—

For the original motion, 329. For the amendment, 132:—Majority, 197.

The resolutions were then agreed to.

List of the Minority.
Abercromby, hon. J.	Barham, Jos.
Allen, J. H.	Baring, sir Thos.
Althorp, vis.	Barnard, vis.
Aubrey, sir John	Barnett, J.
Buxton, T. F.	Belgrave, vise.

Bernal, Ralph	Lloyd, J. M.
Bennet, hon. H. G.	Mahon, hon. S.
Benyon, B	Maberly, John
Birch, J.	Maberly, W.L.
Brand, hon. T.	Macleod, Rod.
Browne, Dom.	Macdonald, J.
Brougham, Henry	Mackintosh, sir J.
Burdett, sir F.	Milton, vis.
Burrell, hon. P. D.	Martin, J.
Calvert, N.	Mills, George
Crawley, Saml.	Mildmay, P. St. John
Cotes, John	Monck, sir C.
Calcraft, John	Moore, Peter
Calvert, C.	Newman, R. W.
Campbell, hon. J.	Newport, sir J.
Carter, John	North, Dudley
Cavendish, lord G.	Ord, Wm.
Cavendish, Henry	Osborne, lord F.
Clifford, Aug.	Phillimore, J.
Colborne, N. R.	Portman, E. B.
Concannon, Lucius	Palmer, C. F.
Crespigny, sir W. De	Pares, Thomas
Davies, T. H.	Parnell, sir H.
Denman, Thos.	Peirse, H.
Denison, W.	Philips, George
Douglas, hon. F. S.	Philips, Geo. jun.
Duncannon, vis.	Phillips, C. M.
Dundas, hon. L.	Ponsonby, hon. F. C,
Dundas, hon. G.	Powlett, hon. W.
Dundas, C.	Prittie, hon. F. A.
Ebrington, vis.	Pryse, Pryse
Euston, earl of	Ramsbottom, John
Ellice, E.	Rickford, Wm.
Fremantle, W.	Ricardo, D.
Fazakerley, Nic.	Ramsden, J. C.
Fellowes, hon. N.	Ranclifie, lord
Fergusson, sir R. C.	Ridley, sir M. W.
Fitzgerald, lord W.	Robarts, A.
Fitzroy, lord C.	Robarts, W. T.
Fitzgerald, M.	Russell, lord G. W.
Folkestone, vis.	Russell, lord J.
Grant, J. P.	Russell, R. G.
Gordon, Robt.	Rumbold, C.
Graham, Sandford	Scarlett, J.
Grenfell, Pascoe	Sefton, earl of
Griffith, J. W.	Smith, hon. R.
Guise, sir Wm.	Smith, Wm.
Gurney, R. H.	Smith, Saml.
Harcourt, J.	Smyth, J. H.
Hamilton, lord A.	Spencer, lord R.
Harvey, D. W.	Stanley, lord
Heathcote, sir G.	Stewart, Wm.
Hill, lord A.	Symonds, J. P.
Honywood, W. P.	Thorp, alderman
Howorth H.	Tierney, rt. hon. G.
Hughes, W. L.	Waithman, ald.
Hume, Jos.	Walpole, hon. G.
Hutchinson, hn. C. H.	Webbe, Ed.
Knox, hon. T.	Webster, sir G.
Lambton, J. G.	Western, C. C.
Langton, W. G.	Wilkins, Walter
Latouche,	Williams, Owen
Latouche, R.	Wilson, sir R.
Lefevre, C. S.	Wood, Matthew
Lemon, sir Wm.	Wynn, C. W.
Longman, G.	Wynn, sir W. W.
Lloyd, sir E.

TELLER.	PAIRED OFF.
Lamb, hon. W	Lamb, G.
	Anson, G.
	Stuart, lord J.