The Chancellor of the Exchequersaid, that he had five distinct grants to propose to the consideration of the committee. The first was, "That a sum not exceeding 8,599,600l. be granted to his majesty, to pay off and discharge Exchequer. Bills charged upon the supplies of the year 1819, unprovided for."
§ Mr. Grenfellsaid, he was not desirous at the present moment of reviving the discussion on the sinking fund, but as government were now on the eve of raising a large sum of money by loan, he appealed to the right hon. gentleman, he implored the House to consider the contents of the paper which, on his motion, had been laid on the table of the House, and which exhibited at one view what would have been the practical effects of the adoption, with reference to the last four loans, of the recommendation which he had so frequently pressed on government. By that paper, it appeared, that if the system he had recommended had been acted upon on the occasion of the last four loans, viz.—the loan for 27 millions in June 1813; the loan for 22 millions in November 1813; the loan for 24 millions in the beginning of 1814; and the loan for 36 millions in 1815, the practical effect would have been the saving to the commissioners for the reduction of the national debt, and consequently to the country of no less a sum than six millions, producing annually 268,000l., a sum more than equivalent to the produce of that odious and abominable mode of raising revenue—the lottery. We were now on the eve of another, and if rumour were to be believed, of a large loan. The present amount of the sinking fund was between 15 and 16 millions. Supposing the intended loan was to be 30 millions, he left it to the House to determine what would, be the effect of the junction, of loan-contractors, which a loan for so large a sum 841 would necessarily occasion, and which would deprive the public of the benefit of competition; which effect might be avoided by taking the sinking fund, or a part of it, in diminution of the loan. He in treated the House to take this important subject into serious consideration, and he trusted that the right hon. gentleman would not commit himself upon it, until that serious consideration had taken place. This led him to another observation. A rumour was very prevalent to day, which he conceived was nothing but a calumny on the right hon. gentleman, and should continue so to conceive it, unless he had the right hon. gentleman's own authority for believing it. It was a rumour, however, which every body had heard, namely, that the right hon. gentleman had communicated to certain loan-contractors, and to them alone, the amount of the loan which it was his intention to negociate. It must be perfectly unnecessary for him to observe, that if this rumour was true, the right hon. gentleman had given to those persons an undue advantage. It was most unquestionably the right hon. gentleman's duty, when he made such a communication, to make it to the stock exchange, to the public—to make it general. It would have been the right hon. gentleman's duty to have made it in his place in the House on Thursday last; or at least not to have made it in a partial manner, by which of course only the few to whom it was made could derive any benefit. He repeated, however, that he believed the rumour was an unfounded calumny; but he thought it right to state it, that the right hon. gentleman might have the opportunity of which he trusted he would be able to avail himself, of denying its accuracy.
The Chancellor of the Exchequerobserved, that the subjects to which the hon. gentleman had just drawn his attention and that of the committee, were of considerable importance. And first with respect to the sinking fund, the hon. gentleman had DO right to assume that the advantages which would have been gained, by the adoption, with reference to the four last loans of his recommendation, would have been such as he described; because he had no right to assume, that if the sinking fund had been taken in aid of the first of those loans, the terms on which the other loans would have been raised, would have been so advantageous to the public as they had been. He said 842 this, not for the purpose of expressing any decided opinion at the present moment on the merits of the plan itself; but merely to show that the benefits of it were not so extensive as the hon. gentleman supposed. With respect to making use of the sinking fund for the service of the present year, all he would say was, that he had not entered into any stipulation which would prevent the public from having the advantage of the application of that fund, if it should be thought expedient so to apply it. In the mean while the power of so applying it was one of the means possessed by the treasury to protect the public from the injurious effects of the combination alluded to by the hon. gentleman. In answering that first point, he thought he had in a great degree replied to the second observation which fell from the hon. gentleman. In the conversations which he had held with a number of persons on the nature of the financial measures which it might be most expedient to adopt, he had of course spoken on a great many points connected with those measures; but he denied having made any secret or private communication of his intentions, of which any unfair advantage could be taken.
§ Mr. Ricardohad heard a statement which set forth, whether correctly or not he could not say, all the particulars of the intended loan, the sum to be borrowed, and the days on which the several payments were to be made. These he understood had been made known to others by the chancellor of the exchequer, but not to him or to any one with whom he was connected. The usual course had been for the chancellor of the exchequer to give notice to the parties likely to subscribe to the loan, that on such a day he would expect them, and then when they attended him, to unfold his plan to them. To communicate his intentions to one party alone, was to give that party a great and manifest advantage over all the others. Whether such a communication had been made he did not know; but the rumour was so general, that he could not doubt the fact of some communication from the right hon. gentleman having been made.
The Chancellor of the Exchequeragain denied that he had made any communication of the nature alluded to, except in the conversations which he had already mentioned. They were only such communications as he should be very happy 843 to make to the hon. gentleman who had just spoken, and to receive his advice with respect to them.
§ Mr. Grenfellexpressed his regret to find, that the right hon. gentleman had really done that which he before believed was attributed to him only by calumny. The right hon. gentleman had allowed, that he had made a communication of his financial plan. But were loan-contractors the persons whom the right hon. gentleman ought to consult on such subjects? He was now compelled to believe the rumour that the right hon. gentleman had communicated to certain persons, his intention of raising a loan of 30 millions: and from what the right hon. gentleman had said, or rather from what the right hon. gentleman had abstained from saying, he believed another rumour, namely, that the right hon. gentleman had declared to the same persons, that he did not mean to apply any part of the sinking fund to the service of the current year. The right hon. gentleman had merely said, that the power of so applying the sinking fund was one of the means which the Treasury possessed of preventing any combination or attempt at combination on the part of the monied interest, and to the disadvantage of the public. But what he (Mr. Grenfell) wanted was, not that it should be so held in terrorem; but, that it should be actually used, and the apprehended combination be thereby prevented. If the sinking fund were rendered available to the service of the year, the loan contractors would not be driven to unite in furnishing what might be further required. What single contractor could grapple with such a loan as 30 millions? But it it were reduced to 15 millions, there would be two, three, or four competitors. He repeated, that the communication which had been made to the individuals in question was giving them a decided and an unfair advantage over all the rest of the monied interest in the city. The right hon. gentleman had almost tacitly acknowledged that he had done this. Was he even how prepared to give to the House and to the public the information which he had communicated to the loan-contractors? He was sorry to find that he had entertained a more favourable opinion of the right hon. gentleman than he appeared to be entitled to but he was now completely satisfied that all the rumours which were afloat that very morning were but too well founded.
§
The Chancellor of the Exchequerexpressed his perfect readiness to state in the House whatever he might have stated elsewhere on the subject; and which had been so stated by him only in the course of the conversations which he had held for the purpose of ascertaining, whether it would be more expedient for the public service to raise a large loan, sufficient for the present and the next year, or only a smaller one to cover the necessities of the present year; as also, whether it would be expedient to take the sinking fund, or any part of it, for the same service.
§ Mr. Barnettobserved, that in his opinion, if the right hon. gentleman had declared to the individuals in question, his intention to abstain from touching the sinking fund, the House ought to interfere to prevent the conclusion of a negotiation on such an understanding.
The Chancellor of the Exchequerreplied that he had already said he had made no stipulation with respect to the sinking; fund, which was of a binding or conclusive nature.
§ Lord Miltoncensured the course which had been adopted by the right hon. gentleman, and which would deprive the public of the benefit to be derived from a competition for the loan. The right hon. gentleman had admitted, that he had made a communication to some persons respecting his intentions; for as to the assertion of the right hon. gentleman, that he had merely asked them questions with regard to the expediency of various financial plans, it was not difficult to conceive, that a chancellor of the exchequer might ask such questions in a way which would be very clearly indicative of his own purposes.
The Chancellor of the Exchequerrepeated, that he had merely made inquiries to ascertain what plan promised to be the most efficient.
§ Mr. Grenfellobserved, that if the right hon. gentleman had put his questions only to obtain information, he would not have been culpable; but if he had communicated his own opinion to the loan contractors, he had not discharged his duty. He ridiculed the idea of asking those persons whether it would be expedient to contract for a large or a small loan. Experience had sufficiently shown, that in such cases they had always declared una voce for the former.
The resolution was then agreed to, as were also the following: 2. "That 3,000,000l. 845 be granted to his majesty to pay off exchequer bills issued pursuant to act 48 Geo. 3, c. 3, continued by an act of the 55th Geo. 3, c. 16, and further continued by an act of 56th Geo. 3, c. 7, intituled, 'An Act to continue until the 5th day of 'April 1818, and amend an act of the '48th year of his present majesty, for 'empowering the governor and com-'pany of the Bank of England to advance 'the sum of three millions towards the 'supply for the service of the year 1808, outstanding and unprovided for. 3. That 1,570,000l., be granted to his majesty, for discharging interest on exchequer bills, Irish treasury bills, and Mint notes. 4. That 430,000l. being the one hundredth part of 43,000,000l. of exchequer bills, authorised in the last session of parliament to be issued and charged upon the aids granted in the present session, be granted to his majesty to be issued and paid by equal quarterly payments to the governor and company of the Bank of England, to be by them placed to the account of the commissioners for the reduction of the national debt, for the year ending the 1st day of February 1819. 5. That 4,400,000l. be granted to his majesty to pay off and discharge treasury bills, issued for the service of Ireland pursuant to acts 57 Geo. 3, c. 81, and 58 Geo. 3, c. 87, outstanding and unprovided for on the 5th day of January 1819, in British currency.