HC Deb 29 January 1819 vol 39 cc149-56

On the order of the day being read for going into a committee of supply,

Mr. Grenfell

took the opportunity to advert to the statement which he had made on Wednesday evening, that the price of standard silver had risen to three half pence an ounce beyond the Mint price; it being 5s. 7½d. an ounce. He had thought it his dirty on the morning after he had made that statement to go into the city and inquire still further into the subject. From the best sources of information he found that the price of standard silver (not of dollars) at that time, at which price it still remained, was 5s. 7d. an ounce; or in other words, 67s. a pound. This fact placed the House and the country in a most whimsical situation. Were it not for the great public inconvenience which might arise from it, nothing could be more laughable. It appeared now that 66 shillings were 67! That the sum of 5s. 6d. was equivalent to the sum of 5s. 7d.! Sixty-six shillings in coin weighed exactly a pound. If a melter of silver put those sixty-six shillings into a Crucible, the result would be a lump of silver which he might sell for sixty-seven shillings! This was one of the consequences of the continuance of the restriction on cash payments. When he had mentioned the subject the other day, the chancellor of the exchequer expressed some doubt as to the fact, and added, that at any rate he had reason to believe that the present price would not be of long duration. With every respect for that right hon. gentleman, and for his private character no man could entertain greater, although it was impossible for him to feel any confidence in him as chancellor of the exchequer, he was hot of that opinion. He had no confidence in the right hon. gentleman's anticipations. He could not but recollect the resolution which the right hon. gentleman had prevailed on the last House of Commons to adopt, namely, that in the estimation of the public, bank-notes were equivalent to the gold coin of the realm. The ink with which that resolution was written was scarcely dry, when, instead of being able in the market to obtain a guinea in exchange for a one pound note and a shilling, it became necessary to add four or five shillings to the pound note for that purpose. Perhaps the right hon. gentleman might say, that to export or melt the coin of the realm was illegal. Tree, there certainly was an impolitic, absurd, and ridiculous law to prevent the exportation or melting of the coin of the realm. It was a law founded on folly. True policy, according to all the ablest writers on the subject, from Locke down to the present time, required that there should be no legal prohibition of that nature; and such a prohibition was as absurd as it was impolitic, since it was impracticable to prevent the coin from being exported or melted whenever the temptation to export or melt it was sufficiently strong. He had thought it necessary to call the attention of the House to this subject, because, if the present price of standard silver, in the market should continue, the silver coin would follow the course which the gold coin had already taken, and entirely disappear. What plan would then be adopted by the right hon. gentleman, he knew not, unless, consistently with his system of forcing a circulation of paper pounds, he should endeavour to introduce a currency of paper shillings.

Mr. Wellsley Pole

wished to say a few words on this subject. The hon. gentleman would recollect, that when the new coinage was under consideration in the last parliament, it appeared to be considered by every one as expedient, in order to prevent the two metals clashing as coin, to make the coin of one of the metals of standard value, and the coin of the other to serve as a kind of counters in exchange. In this proposition he understood that the hon. gentleman concurred, and that the only difference between them was as to the amount of the seigniorage on the silver coin for the purpose in question; it being the opinion of government, that 6 per cent would be sufficient, while the hon. gentleman, if he recollected right, thought that a seigniorage somewhat higher—he believed 10 per cent—would be better. [Mr. Grenfell, in explanation, denied having expressed any such opinion.] He had certainly understood the hon. gentleman to have stated it as his opinion, that the seigniorage should be fixed at 10 per cent. rather than at 6 per cent; but he now stood corrected. The hon. gentleman must, still admit the correctness of the principle, that one precious metal should be made the standard of value, and that the other metals should be considered as counters, and be reduced in value, in. order to prevent them from coming into competition with that which was the standard. This was the only plan that could be adopted for preserving the coin in the country; and yet this very principle, which the hon. gentleman approved, and produced that effect which he represented as so ridiculous. This he held to be highly inconsistent—at the same time to admit the principle and to ridicule the effect—there was another consideration which bore directly on the question, but which had been entirely overlooked by the hon. gentleman; By another regulation there was an additional guard provided for the preservation; of the silver coin, namely, that that coin should not be considered a legal tender for more than 40s.—He agreed with the hon. gentleman in thinking that the law against the exportation of the coin of the realm was worse than foolish; for, as it stood at present, it was only an incentive to crime. This defect in the law had not escaped the observation of his majesty's ministers; but what could they do? The law had not been made by them; it had existed from time immemorial. It appeared to him that it would form a very proper subject for investigation by a committee. The hon. gentleman had stated, and he believed the statement correct, that the present price at which silver stood in the market, was 5s. 7d. per ounce—that is, 1d. per ounce above the Mint price. The consequence was, that for bullion which at the Mint price was worth only 66s. 67s.would be given in the market. This result had been represented in a ludicrous light by the hon. gentleman, but for his own part; if he wanted a pound of silver ready weighed, he would rather take the bullion at a penny more than be at the trouble of weighing it. There was another circumstance which had been overlooked, but which he thought worthy of notice, as it tended to show how fluctuating the price of silver was, and how difficult it was to counteract the effects of accidental circumstances. At present the price, of dollars was 2d. per ounce lower than that of standard silver, and yet two ounces of dollars sold higher than the same quantity of standard silver. The truth; was, that at present there was a great demand for dollars: that demand, however, was temporary, and he had no doubt would soon be over. The present high price of silver, he hoped, would soon fall; but if, contrary to his expectations, it should still continue, he thought it would be proper to appoint a committee to inquire into the subject. If it should appear to that committee that there was so great a rise in the price of bullion as to endanger the coin, he knew only one remedy that could be applied, and that was a legislative measure. It was his firm conviction, however, that the present seigniorage was sufficient to protect the coin. With regard to that part of the hon. gentleman's speech, which involved the question of our currency, and which was more immediately directed against his right hon. friend, the chancellor of the exchequer, he regretted that he could not fallow him. He would state candidly and honestly, that he had endeavoured to make himself master of the question, but that he always found it necessary to speak with great diffidence on the subject. He perceived, indeed, that no two persons agreed in their views of the subject. He had carefully read all the pamphlets that professed to discuss the question, and he found that no two of them agreed; he had consulted the Bank directors, and their opinions did not agree; the two sides of that House could not agree in their views of the question, and even on the same side no two members could agree. If he should be appointed a member of the committee which was to be appointed, he would certainly give the subject all the attention he could, believing, in his conscience, that this vital question could never be satisfactorily elucidated, but by a diligent and laborious committee, who forgetting all party feelings, should enter on the investigation of it with a sincere determination to ascertain, if possible, its real merits.

Mr. Wilson

said, that he felt considerable embarrassment on rising to give his opinion upon a question of such great importance, but trusted to the indulgence of the House for his want of being adequately acquainted with a subject, which a right hon. gentleman on the floor had admitted himself hardly equal to. He was aware that the Bank restriction was an unpopular subject. It might, no doubt, be matter of consideration for the House whether or no any restriction should be put upon the extension of the issue of bank paper; but he was himself decidedly of opinion, that should this be the case, and the issue be too much circumscribed, the trade of the country would suffer in proportion. With respect to the specie, it must be liable, from the state of the exchanges, to continual fluctuation. The present high price of silver was, no doubt, attributable to the great demand for India, America, and other foreign parts; and if specie were now generally in cir- culation, its progressive diminution by exportation must produce much inconvenience to the country. In answer to a question from an hon. member on the other side, what was to be done, if all the silver should be melted down? he said, have recourse, as before, to tokens of a value that would not offer temptation to melt or export; yet he doubted, whether that would not be objected to by hon. members opposite, and whether ft would not be directly attacked as a fraud upon the public, and as giving them Only 15s. in the pound, or something like a dividend on their just demands.

Lord Archibald Hamilton

Said, he rose to notice an observation or two, which had fallen from the right hon. gentleman opposite. He understood that right hon. gentleman to say, that the proportion fixed at the Mint was such as to secure the silver coin from being melted down. But it was necessary to bear in mind, that that proportion was settled with reference to gold, and not with reference to paper He would ask, whether it was possible to fix any proportion which would secure the silver coin against the depreciation of paper? If he meant to say, that the proportion was fixed with relation to gold, then he would say this was of no effect: if it was fixed to guard against the depreciation of paper, then he would say the right hon. gentleman had attempted to do that which was impossible. If it referred to paper—he would ask him, whether, if paper were now depreciated to that extent which they had already seen, he thought it would be possible to secure the silver coin? The assertion of the right hon. gentleman then, either had nothing to do with the question, or it could not be made good. The right hon. gentleman had enlarged on the inconsistencies of political economists on this question; but he thought the right hon. gentleman might find still greater inconsistencies in the honourable and right hon. gentlemen who voted with each other on the question. They all recollected the resolution of a right hon. gentleman, for it was not the resolution of the House, that the pound note and a shilling were equivalent to a guinea, at the very time that it was notorious, that a guinea was worth a great deal more, and when ministers were permitting that to be done, which, by this resolution, it was said there was no occasion for doing. He should like to know what the opinion of ministers was when the sovereigns ware coined If they thought the sovereigns would not stay in the country, then they were guilty of a criminal act, in putting the country to an unnecessary expense; and if they thought that they would remain in the country, they were guilty of an egregious mistake. There was but one evil—the Bank restriction; and there could be but one care—the convertibility if paper into the proper coin of the realm.

Mr. Tierney

said, that the right hon. the master of the Mint had totally mistaken the object of this hon. friend. His hon. friend wished to show that the market price of silver had risen above that established by the Mint regulation, and that, in consequence, there was a danger of all our silver coin being carried out of the country. In reply to that, the right hon. gentleman had made a variety of statements and remarks no way contradicting his hon. friend's assertion, and bearing no relation whatever to the subject. The right hon. gentleman had expressed, as the only source of consolation for the country, his hope, that the great drainage of the silver currency, which he admitted, would not continue. The right hon. gentleman boasted of having studied the subject deeply of having given it every consideration of which his mind had been capable, but he had concluded with de-daring that all his reflection and investigation, could find no remedy but the appointment of a committee of that House. The right hon. gentleman said, he had read all the pamphlets that had been written on the subject. He would advise him to read one more—which it appeared he had not seen, and which had come into his own bands only that morning. He could assure the right hon. gentleman it would reward his pains. It was a letter to the right hem. Robert Peel, from one of his constituents, a member of the university of Oxford. Who the constituent of Mr. Peel was, he did not know, but he would say of him, whoever he was, that he was an honour to the University of Oxford. The right hon. gentleman had told them he was one of his majesty's ministers, who had always thought it they would best get quit of their difficulties by going into a committee. And this was the opinion which the right hon. gentlemen had come to after exercising all she intelligence which God had given him. If this had always been the opinion of the right hon. gentlemen, God knew what a minority he must have been in!

Mr. W. Pole

said, that the right hon. gentleman had attributed to him what he never uttered. He had not said that he had always thought it would be best to go into a committee; but that he now thought that, in the situation in which things stood, the best thing would be a committee. The right hon. gentleman had endeavoured to exhibit him in a ridiculous light. He did not disapprove of the course adopted by the right hon. gentleman on this occasion. It was his usual practice, when he could not answer any thing, to have recourse to ridicule. There was no man who was more happy than the right hon. gentleman when he chose to avail himself of ridicule. How ever, if be had the advantage of the argument, he did not envy the right hon. gentleman the advantage which he derived from his powers of ridicule; though he was sorry that he himself had come in for the first share of it. He had endeavoured to give such information as it was in his power to state, and he had stated his conscientious opinion Chat the fairest way to reconcile all the clashing interests and opinions would be to go into a committee. The right hon. gentleman had closed his speech with some advice, of which, he should endeavour to avail himself; but he could assure him at was not with, a view of making a parade of reading, that he had mentioned the books and pamphlets read by him. This was, of all things, the farthest from his thoughts. He had merely stated them to show the difficulties in which the subject was involved, and as a reason for his thinking that a matter of such intricacy would be the best settled by the intelligence of the House, chosen, as he hoped it would be, by ballot, which would give every member the power of putting into the glass the names he really thought best calculated for the service.