HC Deb 22 February 1819 vol 39 cc547-51
Mr. Bennet

having moved the order of the day for the third reading of this bill,

Sir Joseph Yorke

said, it had long been a matter of very doubtful curiosity, whether a smoky chimney, or a scolding wife were the greatest evil; but on that night, perhaps, the question would be settled. Whatever the character of the hon. mover might be for philanthropy and humanity, he certainly took leave to say, that he yielded not to him a single iota in the possession of either. Out of the doors of that House, no doubt the horn gentleman's name was associated with such virtues; but however that might be, he (sir J. Yorke) felt conscious that be indulged no feeling contrary to either benevolence or humanity. If the treatment of climbing boys were of such a cruel nature as to require the interference of legislative restriction, he would by no means object to it. But to do away an ancient trade, when the want of employment had been so much complained of, did really excite in him considerable surprise. If the Solons of the times wished to prevent the necessary waste of human life, he did not know how the present legislators would be able to provide for the increased propagation of the human species, which they seemed so earnestly to recommend. It would be evidently bad to throw young boys upon the parishes, and not only thereby increase the poor-rates, but lay them open to every temptation, and promote their progress in the career of crime. If, however, machines were capable of sweeping all classes of flues, he thought they would necessarily force their way into general use, and be employed in place of boys. But he called upon the hon. mover to state, if the fact had been made out, that machinery could so operate? Several of the fire-offices were against the use of machinery; and as to the master chimney sweepers, whom he held in his hand;—[a laugh]—well, then, if the House would have it so, their opinions, were in general also decisively against it. The directors of the Bank of England had given directions to two principal inventors of machinery to try their practicability on the chimneys of the Bank; but its success was confined to a very few of them indeed. One great evil in the use of machinery was its pargetting the mortar of the flues, and thereby very often rendering it necessary to take them down—no very pleasant thing to those who were fond of domestic comforts. Gentlemen might not know what pargetting meant, but if they had to take down a whole stack of chimneys, ‡ they would find it rather an expensive and unpleasant job. Where the flues were hot covered at the top, to prevent the rain from inundating a man's house, the use of machinery could never become practically valuable. The House seemed to be amused at what he said, but he begged most seriously to impress it upon such gentlemen as had houses of their own, that if the mortar were to be stripped off the flues, and, in cases of fire, if they were compelled to go upon the roofs of their houses and strip off the tiles in order to quench the flames, whether in such a case they would like to have the lead of the gutters stolen, exclusive of all the other inconveniencies to which it would subject them, of being obliged to call in carpenters, slaters, and plumbers, at a very formidable expense? But all this would certainly be the result of the use of machinery. Gentlemen should take a look at such points before the bill went to the other House, where it would no doubt meet its quietus. And further, the bill did not say, in the event of a stack of chimneys falling in, when machinery had been used to sweep them, upon whom the expense was to devolve? Whether upon the ground landlord, the intermediate tenants, or the party in actual possession. The flues, however, were the nice point to be touched; and he hoped that gentlemen would reflect upon the present bill, and treat it as they had formerly done the pewter-pot bill. It was a pleasant thing to see so full a House, when his majesty's attorney-general had one great subject to introduce: and another gentleman opposite another great subject, upon which no doubt he would make a very fine speech. But the fulness of the House would also be beneficial to the discussion of the present bill; for the hon. mover would discover that every humane gentleman could not compel the House to the adoption of whatever plans he pleased. It should be told that gentleman—"nothing on compulsion have," and he hoped it would be verified that night. The hon. member for Bramber had said, that nothing could get rid of a prejudice but an act of parliament, as Was the case with regard to the slave trade and the small pox. But if a sanguinary war arose in the course of a few years, he should be glad to know how an act of parliament could be said to operate against such a prejudice? [Hear, and a laugh] Why, war after all was called a prejudice, or an evil, and surely the gravest gentleman would not deny that evil was a bad thing? Besides, he had noticed another strange defect in the bill in its bad grammar, and he should therefore move, "that it be recommitted." Why should such a bill pass? What merit had it to boast of? For as to the humanity which was so much the fashion to be talking about, he begged to enter his most solemn protest against it. It was half spurious at least. But he would not further detain the House. He was obliged for the patience and good humour with which he had been heard, and should conclude with moving that the bill be read a third time on that day three months.

Mr. Ommancy

opposed the bill, because it would deprive many people of employment, and throw a number of young persons on the parishes. As to the opinion of the fire-offices, he held in his hand a paper which showed that a subscription to the amount of 120l. had been entered into by several fire-offices for the purpose of suppressing the bill. The boys generally employed in this profession were not the children of poor persons, but the children of rich men, begotten in an improper manner.

Mr. Bennet

said, he did not think it necessary to reply to the general arguments that had been urged against the bill, thoroughly and repeatedly as the subject had been discussed. He wished, however, to say a few words on what had just fallen from an hon. gentleman respecting the disposition of the fire offices. He had that morning read the various-depositions on the subject on oath. In them it was distinctly declared, and especially by Mr. Jones, one of the secretaries, that the money alluded to by the hon. gentleman had been subscribed, not for the purpose of getting rid of the bill, but in order to enable the matter to be investigated. As to the assertion made by the hon. gentleman of the source whence the master chimney sweepers were supplied with their apprentices, he was sure the House would agree with him, that if those unfortunate little beings were chiefly illegitimate and unprotected children, it was an additional reason for affording them legislative care.

Mr. Wilson

remarked, that what the hon. member had said respecting the declaration of Mr. Jones, was perfectly correct. It was true that Mr. Jones gave the money for the purpose stated by the hon. gentleman, and that it had been sub- scribed solely for that purpose. If, however, the hon. gentleman had gone farther, he would have learned that it was Mr. Jones's opinion, and that of several fire-offices, that the measure would be attended with considerable danger.

Mr. Bennet

said, he had looked at the whole evidence, in order to ascertain the different opinions that existed respecting the measure. It was true, that many had given opinions such as had been mentioned by the hon. gentleman. Some persons connected with the fire-offices had given their opinions, not officially, but as individuals; and some of those who apprehended danger from the measure, had never seen the machines worked.

The bill was then read a third time, and passed.