HC Deb 16 December 1819 vol 41 cc1217-32
Mr. Maxwell

rose, pursuant to notice, to bring forward his motion relating to the Manufacturing Districts in Scotland. He said, that at the time of his return from the continent he found the county of Renfrew labouring under a most severe pressure; but the pressure was most heavy upon those who were engaged in the manufacturing interest. They were wholly unable to support themselves by their exertions. Those who were appointed to relieve them had recourse to plans of artificial labour, such as the making of roads, &c., A large sum was subscribed for the purpose of that relief, under the idea that their distresses would prove to be only of a temporary nature; but after expending that, unfortunately another was found necessary to be demanded. In consequence of the situation in which Renfrewshire was placed, it was determined that a petition should be agreed to, stating the nature of the local distress, and pointing out to ministers that spirit of insubordination which began to manifest itself, and which would ever be found to prevail where such distress existed. This course was adopted principally for the purpose of giving to the House an opportunity of declaring what reason, if any, existed, for not bestowing on the northern parts of the kingdom that species of relief which had been granted to other districts of this country. It was felt that, if parliament took up the question, and showed an earnest desire to alleviate the wants of those individuals, the very fact that they had considered their case, would induce those who were visited by an accumulation of evils, to bear up against them with more fortitude than they would perhaps otherwise do. It was evident, that persons of moderate property, in those neighbourhoods where distress was strongly felt, could not, for any considerable time, continue to grant relief; for, if they did, the whole rental of their property would be consumed. In many instances, indeed, the relief afforded to the distressed operators swallowed up nearly the whole rental of the estates of well-disposed persons. When, in addition to this, he stated, that a great many individuals, who had made their fortunes by a connexion with trades and manufactures, had not felt it their duty to come forward and subscribe in this season of distress, and that a vast number of landholders in the distressed districts did not conceive that they were obliged to step forward with relief. When he declared this to be the fact, he felt that he was warranted in calling on that House to pay some attention to those who were now suffering, and to extend their fostering care to those districts in which the pressure of want was most prevalent. Such a proceeding would tend, in a great degree, to prevent the inroad of tumult and disaffection; and it would also operate in hindering the great defalcation of the revenue, which, under existing circumstances, was too much to be apprehended. If the House did not make any great sacrifice—if it showed that it was anxious, willing, and ready to take such measures as appeared best calculated to ameliorate the situation of those parts of the country, which, from various causes, suffered under almost unparalleled distress—if it granted even a trifling aid, much benefit would be derived from the manifestation of that feeling. For a long period an immense revenue had been cir- culating through the country—sums arising from loans, and from various other transactions, had been afloat. These encouraged industry, by the employment of many individuals in the different manufactures connected with war. This employment was the cause of a superabundant population; and, when war ceased, the population which had been thus created were left unprovided for. Other causes, the existing system of apprenticeship, for instance, tended also to increase the number of manufacturers. He felt it necessary, in calling the attention of the House to this subject, to advert to these points, in order to show that the House would be warranted in making some grant, since the necessity for it arose out of particular circumstances, which were not likely to occur again. The great point of complaint was, that gentlemen of landed property were called on to support those operative manufacturers; and very many of those who were obliged to contribute to their subsistence, had never derived any benefit from their labours. It would, therefore, be well for the House to consider what relief could, in such a case—a case of great hardship—be fairly and prudently granted. Even if his motion were not acceded to, the fair and liberal discussion to which he hoped it would give rise, would have a powerful effect in removing the discontent which prevailed. He conceived that it would be extremely proper to grant pecuniary assistance to those individuals who were desirous to emigrate from Scotland. There being no poor-rates in that country, many individuals were unable to procure the ten pounds which were necessary to enable them to leave the country. There were, in his opinion, certain points of taxation which demanded revision. Those who were scarcely able to procure a scanty subsistence, ought to be relieved from taxation altogether. He could never consider that a wise, just, or salutary taxation, which bore heavily on the lower orders, and augmented the pressure of that distress which originated in causes that could not, perhaps, be entirely removed. It should certainly be an object of great moment with the House, to consider how the immense superabundant population of the country could best be employed or relieved. He did think that some relief should be afforded to the poor in the distressed manufacturing districts of Scotland. It was extremely unfair that almost the whole burden should be placed on the shoulders of the landholder. Various modes might be pointed out by which this severe pressure could be avoided, and he hoped the House would adopt one or other of them. He thought it would be well if they seriously considered whether it would not be better to sanction some relaxation from the strict principles of political economy, in order to alleviate the evils which now confessedly existed in different parts of Scotland. The assistance hitherto derived from the land-owners was likely to be very much narrowed, if not wholly done away; because one-half of the produce of the land was frequently uncalled for; and, for the other half, the farmer was, in many instances, unable to obtain an adequate payment. If things went on in this way, it was clear that the source from which the operative manufacturer derived his subsistence, would soon be dried up. If this most important subject was not taken up warmly and zealously, those who were borne down by the pressure of distress would be led to think, that there was no sympathy for their situation. Feeling thus, the tie of their alliance would become weak; and, instead of acting on the doctrines of religion and morality, they would perhaps be incited to form themselves into bands of thieves. What must be the feelings of many fathers of families, when, owing to the extreme pressure of the times, they found it necessary to withdraw their children from school—when they were obliged to leave them in a state almost of nakedness, and saw them without food and without clothes in the midst of an inclement winter?—Would not such a state of things tempt men to question the excellence of those civil institutions under which they lived, and that form of government under which their rights were supposed to be protected? Would sot individuals, thus overwhelmed by distress, throw aside the system of good morals, and the love of pure character which they had previously cherished, and adopt other principles and sentiments? There had been instances in which the misfortunes of the people had produced such effects; and he much questioned whether the measures pending at that moment would prevent a similar result, unless they were accompanied by acts which would prove that their situation was not treated with coldness and apathy. He begged the House to consider, before they came in contact with the people, whether it would not be wise and prudent to look, with an anxious eye, to the circumstances which led to the present state of affairs, and to devise some means by which the affections of the people might be secured, and the great body of the population taught to reverence the laws of the land. There were circumstances which should induce every man of feeling to contribute his share towards alleviating the misfortunes of the labouring community. Whether he was in favour of a small pittance, or a large and liberal grant, he would have this consolation—that his efforts tended to reduce the sum of human suffering; that thereby discontent would be removed, and the interests of religion, of law, and of social order, would, in a proportionate degree, be asserted and preserved. Whatever feeling of discontent existed in the country was, he believed in his conscience, to be attributed to want, and to want alone. Individuals were to be found who were anxious for what was called radical reform; others called out for some new and undefined change in the constitution of the country; and the dissemination of their tenets had produced an alarming effect on the minds of the people. But he was firmly convinced, that such of the great mass of the population as had been brought to admire and to join in those tenets, acted more from the feelings engendered by want, and from the natural hope of having that want relieved, than from any disaffection to the government, or any dislike to the constitution of the country. The middling orders of society, though attached, on account of their property, to the existing government, were, by their feelings, strongly connected with the labouring classes; and he did not believe that, at the present moment, there was an individual in the former rank who would not contribute to any fair system of taxation, if he were satisfied that it would be the means of affording permanent relief to his less fortunate fellow-creatures.—The hon. member concluded by moving for "a copy of any memorial which has been transmitted to the Lords of the Treasury, relative to the distresses of the manufacturing part of the population of the county of Renfrew."

The Chancellor of the Exchequer

said, he had no objection to the proposition of the hon. gentleman. It was obvious, however, that the object of his motion was pecuniary assistance; and he would state very shortly to the House the course which his majesty's ministers deemed it necessary to pursue on an occasion of considerable difficulty and delicacy. Every person must agree in the truth of the observation, that considerable distresses existed in the manufacturing districts of Scotland and of this country; but the mode of granting them relief was a matter which required serious consideration. Those distresses arose at different times, and from very different causes. Sometimes they were the effect of war, sometimes the result of peace. Fluctuations, created by a variety of causes, must have a powerful effect on manufactures. The demand for them would, at one period, be exceedingly large, and then the population would be generally employed; while at another, that demand would shrink and decrease so much, as to render it impossible to keep the manufacturing population at work; and of course, a considerable pressure of distress must be produced. The House must be aware, how much that distress was likely to be aggravated in a country where no law existed, which could be carried into effect, when the working population were thrown out of employment. When cases of this kind occurred in England, the poor tradesmen found relief by the operation of the poor-laws. In Scotland, where such a system did not exist, the pressure was, undoubtedly, much more severe. He was afraid that if parliament were to introduce the system of poor-rates among the people of Scotland, it would be very ill received; and, on the other hand, if they departed from the existing principle, and bestowed relief on, local districts, there was no place that would not expect to have its distresses alleviated in the same way. To show the view which ministers took of this subject, he would read the answer which had been sent to an application made by the duke of Hamilton for a grant to relieve the distresses of the inhabitants of Lanarkshire:—"Fife House, 14th December 1819. My lord; I have had the honour of receiving your grace's letter. I informed you some days ago of the course of proceeding which had been adopted in consequence of the application from the city of Glasgow. A petition has been presented to the House of Commons from that place, and measures are in progress for carrying into effect the prayer of that petition. As soon as the question of security can be settled to the satisfaction of parliament, government will have no difficulty in making an advance, with a view to immediate relief. Your grace does not seem to be aware that the government of this country has no fund at its disposal for the relief of the distresses of the poor; that the people of England provide for their poor by local assessments, and that it never could be expected in reason or justice that they should be called upon gratuitously to provide for the poor of the other parts of the united kingdom (where no assessment exists) in addition to their own. If the district of Lanark, or any other of the distressed districts of Scotland, will apply to parliament for leave to assess themselves in aid of their poor, government will have no difficulty in recommending, under the special circumstances of the case, that advances shall be made on the security of such assessments; or, if any plan can be proposed to parliament for giving employment to the poor, by means of local improvements, government will have the same disposition to forward the object by temporary advances, where reasonable security can be given for ultimate repayment. With respect to emigration, your grace is already acquainted with my sentiments. The object, important as it is in itself, can from its nature only admit of gradual accomplishment, and to attempt a too extensive and hasty execution of such a plan could only lead, in addition to unlimited expense, to the ruin and destruction of those whom it is wished to relieve. I request that your grace will communicate these sentiments to the gentlemen with whom you correspond, and at the same time inform them, that if they will come forward with some specific proposal, on the principle of that of Glasgow, government will have every disposition to give the most liberal and indulgent consideration to it, and to recommend it, if possible, to the adoption of parliament.—I have, &c., (Signed) Liverpool.''—From the nature of this letter, the House would perceive that the government was not inattentive to the distresses of that part of the empire; and he could further add, that every possible consideration would always be bestowed on the question by those who had the guardianship of the public interest.

Mr. Primrose

said; there was a great difference between the distress of the manufacturing districts in England and in Scotland, inasmuch as in the one country it was relieved by poor-rates, which had no existence in the other. Now, some relief ought to be granted to the population of Scotland; for if they were permanently out of bread, they would be permanently seditious. At present, there was not only a want of employment amongst the manufacturers, but in the warehouses there was an excess of their commodities. This surplus of goods rendered the master-manufacturer incapable of paying the labourer as usual, and therefore the labourer was obliged to work more hours than customary in order to gain wages sufficient to supply the wants of nature. Under these circumstances, he hoped that the distress existing in the manufacturing districts of Scotland would be made the subject of inquiry, and that the House would enter into that inquiry, devoid of all political views, except as far as regarded the effects of taxation upon the manufacturing interests.

Mr. Kirkman Finlay

said, that every attention was paid by lord Liverpool, and the right hon. the chancellor of the exchequer to every remonstrance and memorial presented on the part of the distressed operatives of Scotland.

Mr. J. P. Grant

said, that while distress so generally pervaded the whole country, he could not refrain from observing on the contracted, and unstatesman-like policy pursued by his majesty's government. Two special considerations had been omitted in their views of that great question, namely, the want of provisions for those persons whose families were in a state of starvation, and the general interests of the community. Ministers seemed inclined to throw the support of the distressed upon the more opulent, without considering that every pressure on them, would necessarily re-act upon the people. It would be no answer to those who could not procure food, that the army was increased, that coercive measures were necessary to be enforced, and that an increased expenditure was requisite to meet the general exigencies of the times. All that might be the case; but it would never satisfy the people, nor procure them the means of subsistence. Their distresses should be looked to, and the causes that produced them probed to the bottom; if any serious intention was entertained of effectually removing them. In a season of such emergency as the present, the government and he parliament should interfere; for the poor and the distressed were not only concerned, but the general peace and prosperity of the country. Society was only established, and governments created for the purpose of the general good, and the evil of starvation should not be thrown on one particular class of persons.—If the evil were distributed more equally, its pressure would be less severe; and if owing to the line of policy hitherto adopted, distress had multiplied to a most alarming height, the time was arrived at which measures should be taken for its diminution and relief. He could not forget the grants which were made to the Portuguese, the Russians, and the Germans, and even to persons nearer home—the weavers of Spitalfields. How, then, could it be said, that the present demand was new? or that the case submitted to their consideration did not loudly call for legislative interference? While aggravated misery existed, they should not sit with their arms across, and say, leave it to the natural cures for an overgrowth of population. These natural cures would be, famine and pestilence. But were these to be their remedies? Why was society at all invented, if not to provide remedies of a safer and a better nature? The present distresses were not confined to any one particular district: the causes that produced them operated but too generally; and when people were dying for want, it was high time to consider of the best means for the prevention of increasing evils. If a ship at sea was reduced to short allowance, no one would think of throwing a part of the crew overboard, in order to make ampler provision for the rest. No, the scanty provisions would be equally divided; and the same thing should be done in the present situation of this country. Temporary relief about two years ago was found of great assistance towards the mitigation of distress. Why then not try the same experiment on the present occasion? The peace of society, and the stability of the government depended on the exertions which might now be made to relieve the people from those calamities by which they were oppressed. He was a friend to all necessary measures for the repression of disaffection; but he called upon them, for God's sake, not to give the people to understand that no attention would be paid to their distresses.

Mr. Huskisson

repelled the charge of inattention made on the government by the hon. member, and added that the letter which had just been read must have satisfied any man of the disposition of ministers to use their best endeavours to procure relief. Distress existed in certain districts of Scotland, perhaps from the over-growth of population; but those very districts had increased in prosperity more than one hundred fold, by the industry of that very population, whose distresses had been so much dwelt on. In looking at the distresses of the manufacturers, they were bound to look at the state of the foreign markets, particularly that of America, one of the greatest consumers of British manufacture; and if they fairly looked to that, they would find no legislative measures of the government that could remedy those evils, whose existence he regretted as much as any member in that House. Violent speeches could not reduce distress, but would rather tend to increase that discontent, that feverish excitation, which were now so visible throughout the country. The parliament could do but little by direct relief; but much could be done by restoring that confidence and security to the capitalist, which recent measures had so much shaken. If this were not effected, capital would be naturally withdrawn from its accustomed channels of circulation, the industrious classes would be left without employment, and the general decay of commerce would most ruinously ensue. To prevent this accumulation of mischief should be the desire of all; and he felt satisfied it was the sincere and heartfelt desire of his majesty's ministers.

Mr. Tierney

, thought it extraordinary that government, knowing all this distress to exist, had not been prepared with some measures to relieve it. He was not at all surprised that those who were connected with that part of Scotland, and who had themselves been eye-witnesses of the misery and starvation which prevailed there, should express themselves in warm language; and he trusted that the House, on taking that circumstance into consideration, would pardon any warm expressions that might have been used. There were occasions on which government was glad to employ the distressed part of the population on works of general importance. This had been done at Glasgow and elsewhere; but in the county of Renfrew, no public works could be undertaken; and thus the principle which was good in one part of Scotland, was bad in another, from being totally inapplicable. He was ready to admit that Scotland was as much bound to provide for its poor as England; but if there was any difficulty in raising a sum there to relieve them, (and he did not say that there was any such difficulty), government might be justly called upon to assist in obviating it. The right hon. gentleman had denied, with considerable vehemence, that any of our existing evils arose from the policy of ministers. Now he (Mr. T.) thought that some of them had. A principle of political economy had been violated by an issue of paper, that was not convertible into money: and this, as they all knew, had not been productive of any advantage to the state. The people of part of Scotland were now allowed to be in jeopardy of starvation. Was he, when they were in such circumstances, to understand that no relief would be granted to them, unless the gentlemen of landed property came forward in their behalf? No; that was not exactly the case: all the gentlemen on the other side said that something ought to be done, but they could not tell what. So said the poor and famished manufacturers, but with a meaning rather different. This something, which was to be done when the people required relief, appeared very like nothing; but when something was to be done to coerce the people, that something came before them in the shape of six or seven bills. Did gentlemen think that it was only by dint of law and a military force, that they could restore strength, and health, and soundness, to their convulsed country? He hoped not. It was too monstrous a proposition to be seriously entertained for a moment. They were now receiving complaints from different parts of the kingdom, not of imaginary miseries or fictitious evils; they were receiving petitions, not for absurd theories of representation, or wild changes in the constitution; but complaints of actual misery, and that, too, of the very worst nature—of starvation. It was a dreadful state of society to live under, and would become still more so, if relief was not granted. It was said that this relief ought to come from the landed proprietors; but was it not too much to ask, that the calamities arising out of the decay of the manufacturing interest, should be entirely relieved at the expense of the agricultural, which was not itself in the most flourishing condition. If ever there was a case in which the House ought to seek to extend redress to the people, either by granting a committee, or in any other way, this surely was one. He did not think this a party question; and if a committee was granted, he should not enter it with party feelings. He recommended it, because he believed it would be the best way of conciliating the disaffected, and restoring tranquillity to that part of the country which was disturbed.

Mr. Marryat

said:—Mr. Speaker; I regret that language should have been used in this debate, the tendency of which is rather to aggravate than allay the discontents that prevail among the labouring classes of the community. I also regret as it is admitted on all hands that these discontents originated chiefly in distress, that his majesty's ministers have it not in contemplation to bring forward any measures by which that distress may be alleviated. I admit that the safety of the state is the first object that demanded their attention; but that being provided for by the various bills now in progress through the House, I think measures of relief, as far as relief is practicable, ought to go hand in hand with measures of coercion. It has been stated in many loyal addresses to the throne, echoed back again to us in the speech from the throne, re-echoed in our address, and repeated in various speeches in this House, that this distress is only of a temporary nature. Often as I have heard this asserted, I have never once heard it attempted to be proved; and I believe for this plain reason, that to prove it is impossible, because this distress is inherent in, and inseparable from, the situation in which this country is now placed. We are in an artificial and extraordinary state of things, different from that of any other nation on earth. We have to provide for the interest of an immense national debt, in addition to the expenses of our regular peace establishment, so that the ordinary sources of revenue, derived from taxes on internal consumption, which served to defray the expenses of other governments, will not suffice for our wants; but we depend also upon the revenue derived from manufacturing, to a great extent, for the consumption of foreign powers. This resource is of immense importance, as may be seen by the single instance of the cotton manufac- tory. The raw cotton annually consumed in this country costs about six millions, which in its manufactured state is sold for at least six times its original value, or thirty-six millions, leaving a profit to this country of thirty millions. At the close of the war, about one-third of the profits or income of every individual, found their way into the exchequer, as appears by the returns under the Income Tax act. That tax was paid on nearly 150 millions, for it produced 14,800,000l.; adding one third or 75 millions, for short returns and exemptions, the total income of the inhabitants of this country will be something more than 220 millions, and the amount of the public revenue at the same period exceeded 70 millions, or nearly one third. Since the repeal of the income tax, the proportion is reduced to about one fourth; so that the cotton manufacture now produces an annual revenue of 7½ millions. Extend this calculation to our other great staple manufactures, wool, leather, glass and earthenware, hardware, and various others, a large proportion of which is exported, together with the produce of our mines, lead, iron, copper, tin, and coals, and it will be seen how much our revenue depends upon the export trade of the country. During the war, we commanded a monopoly of the commerce of almost all the world, and increased our manufactures to such an extent, that they actually occupy a much greater part of our population than are employed in agriculture. Every thing then wore the appearance of prosperity, for the workmen obtained high wages, for which the master manufacturers indemnified themselves, by the high prices they obtained for their goods in foreign parts. But when peace returned, and we came into competition with the manufacturers of every nation on the continent, where labour was much cheaper than in Great Britain, a great and sudden revulsion took place. Our master-manufacturers found themselves undersold, and were consequently obliged to reduce the price of their goods. To relieve themselves from this loss, and enable themselves to afford their goods as cheap as their rivals in foreign markets, they reduced the wages of their workmen, and at length even this resource has become ineffectual; for although the workmen who continue to have employment, are only paid a pittance insufficient for their support, the export of our manufactures is so much diminished, that great numbers of them are without any employ whatever—I know there are many individuals who think that British skill, capital and enterprise, will carry all before them; but I can assure those gentlemen that they tinder-rate the exertions of our rivals, as I can show them by referring to the trade of the Havana, which being open to all the world, is as fair a criterion as can possibly be furnished. From the returns of the vessels that arrived at that port for the six months ending in July last, it appears that out of 99 which came from Europe, only fifteen sailed from Great Britain; eighteen were from France, and twenty-one from Holland and the Hans towns. This enumeration shows that six parts out of seven of the wants of the inhabitants of the island of Cuba, can be supplied cheaper from other parts of Europe than from Great Britain; and confirms the positions I am endeavouring to maintain, that manufactures can be afforded cheapest where labour can be procured at the lowest rate, and that labour will be lowest where the taxes are the lowest, because the rate of taxation necessarily enhances the price of every commodity that men eat, drink, wear, or consume. Peace brought the same distress upon agricultural as upon the manufacturing classes, by exposing the British farmer to a competition with the foreign grower of corn, but the land-holders relieved themselves by passing the corn laws, which raised the price of bread upon the lower classes, at the very moment when their means of paying for it were diminished by the reduction of their wages. I impute no blame to the landed interest, for their distress, required relief; but I contended at the time, that they helped themselves with rather too liberal a hand; and the present state of things proves that the public burthens now press too heavily on the labouring classes of the community. The longer we attempt to go on upon our present system, the more, I fear, will our financial and political difficulties increase. Six years ago, the right hon. gentleman the chancellor of the exchequer, published a pamphlet entitled "Outlines of a New Plan of Finance," in which he predicted that according to his new plan, the whole of the national debt would be liquidated in the year 1837; and told the public "that he had found out a new discovered treasure of 100 millions, such as no country ever before possessed, raised without the impoverishment of any individual, or any embarrassment of the general circulation." Does any man, in his sober senses now believe, that the whole of the national debt will be paid off by the year 1837, or that the right hon. gentleman has these 100 millions in his pocket? Sir the fallacy of the right hon. gentleman's plan consisted in his taking it for granted, that taxation might be increased to an indefinite amount; his calculations were founded on an addition of 21 millions to all the then existing taxes; and one of the first acts of John Bull, after the peace, was, to kick off seventeen millions from the load of taxes he already bore. Thus vanished at once all the right hon. gentleman's visions of liquidating the national debt, and his newly discovered treasure. This retrospect is important, as it may serve to bring the right hon. gentleman to true principles of finance; and to show him that if he means his next plan to succeed, he must found it on the basis of reducing, not augmenting, the present weight of taxation. This appears to me (to use a proscribed term), to be the only radical cure for the evils under which the country now labours; and in my opinion would be best accomplished, by a general contribution of property of every description, for the purpose of paying off a considerable portion of the national debt, and thus getting rid of those taxes which render it impossible for our labouring classes to afford their labour as cheap as their continental competitors. I know of no other means of reviving the foreign demand for our manufactures, and thus securing constant employment to the distressed part of our population. The measure, though severe is certainly practicable. I happened to be in Holland in the winter of 1802, and the inhabitants of that country had then paid ten per cent upon their capital, besides a very considerable per centage on their income. Some gentlemen have recommended a renewal of the property tax, for the purpose of taking off those taxes which press most heavily upon the poor, and this would certainly give them considerable relief, but it should be considered, that the property tax must be perpetual, the other measure temporary that the relief given by the former would be only partial, that by the latter effectual; that by imposing a property tax in time of peace we exhaust a resource which ought to be reserved for time of war, and ║ may be obliged to submit to insults from foreign powers which we dare not resent, on the contrary, this country would stand in a prouder situation than ever, if after incurring such a vast expenditure to deliver Europe from the most gigantic despotism that ever attempted to crush the liberties of mankind, she made such an unexampled sacrifice to relieve the suffering classes of her own population, on whom the public burthens pressed with too disproportionate a weight. I shall not go into any particular details on this subject. It is the province of his majesty's ministers to propose specific plans of relief, for the distresses which have produced such alarming symptoms of discontent; and I trust they will shortly bring forward some general and well digested plan of this description, such as will meet the full approbation, as I am persuaded it will receive the most serious consideration of this House. In the mean time, I cannot concur in any local or partial measures, such as that we are called upon to adopt by the present motion.

The motion was then agreed to.