§ The House having resolved itself into a committee of supply,
§ Sir G. Warrenderproceeded to address the committee. He said he could anticipate no opposition to the resolutions which he held in his band, which merely 572 provided for the requisite number of seamen for the year. He ought to mention that in one branch of the service, he meant the royal marines, there was an increase of 2,000 men; so that, in future, the whole duty of the dock-yards would be executed by that corps. It would be found of the greatest service to increase the royal marines to the number of 8,000 men; by which means, if any cause should arise, an efficient permanent force would be ready to assist in the formation of an armament. This was not like an increase of the military force, a measure of a temporary nature but was intended to be a permanent increase to the extent of 2,000 men. The hon. baronet then moved, "That 23,000 men be employed for the Sea Service, for 18 Lunar months, from the 1st January, 1820, including 8,000 royal marines."
§ Sir Joseph Yorkeinquired whether the hon. baronet meant to make any addition to the guard-ships, which he described as being in a very bad situation. Considerable difficulty was encountered at present in fitting out men of war, as was exemplified in the case of two line of battle ships that were lately sent to a distant quarter of the globe. The seamen were now placed on the preventive service: they were employed under the command of the chancellor of the exchequer, in preventing smuggling. When they came back from a service of that kind, they were generally more fond of the gin-cag than of the gunpowder-cask. There was not a naval officer, he believed, who would not, for the duties of reefing, steering, splicing, or fighting the enemies of their country, take any other set of men, in preference to those who had been placed on this service. When the hon. baronet asked them to vote 2,000 men more than were called for last year, he hoped he would not refuse to give the House some information on the points he had alluded to.
§ Mr. J. P. Grantsaid, if he understood the hon. baronet correctly, the nature of his proposition was, that 2,000 men should be added to the marines, which would have the effect of releasing 2,000 of the military force of the country from the duty they now performed in the dockyards. Therefore, when an increase of the military force was called for, the House ought to keep in view, that by this new measure, 2,000 men would be virtually added to the military establish- 573 ment. He could not, at that moment, make any observation on the proposed increase of the army; but when the noble lord brought forward the proposition, it would be for him to demonstrate the necessity of such a measure in time of peace.
Sir B. Martinsaid, the duty of the dock-yards was formerly executed by the marine corps, and it was always highly desirable that it should be performed by them. That which was now proposed was therefore nothing more than merely reverting to the ancient system.
§ Sir G. Warrenderstated, that with respect to the guard-ships it was not intended to make any alteration in the system which had been approved of by the House last year, and which rendered that species of force more efficacious. The reasons, founded chiefly on a principle of economy, which he had detailed to the House in the last session, operated to reduce the number of guard-ships. But, if the hon. baronet supposed them to be in a state of inefficiency, he had formed an erroneous opinion. With respect to the armament destined for South America, to which the hon. baronet had alluded, it was not fitted out so tardily as he imagined. One of the vessels, the Superb, commanded by sir T. Hardy, was in the Sound, with all her stores on board, in four days after the orders were issued for her equipment, and her complement of men was speedily completed. With respect to the increased number of marines, it would be most advantageous. If an armament were ordered to be equipped, these men would be ready for service, and the military might undertake the dock-yard duty, as before.
§ Mr. Tierneysaid, if the marines were increased by 2,000 men, it was clear that 2,000 of the military would be applicable to some other service. If 2,000 additional marines were raised, who were to do a duty now performed by the military, ought not the army to be decreased to that amount? If it was not, then it came to this, that to this extent they increased the army. He had no objection to the marines having the care of the dock-yards, for common sense pointed them out as the most proper force to undertake that duty; but he did not approve of this mode of strengthening the army. It was understood that 10,000 men were to be added to the military force of the country, and no person would contend 574 that that number was not quite enough; but, by the proposition now made, it appeared that there would be an increase of 2,000 more.
§ Sir G. Warrendersaid, that gentlemen were not correct in supposing that the dock-yard duty was entirely performed by the military of late years. The fact was, a part of that duty had always been intrusted to the corps of marines.
§ Mr. Tierneysaid, he had no objection to the increase of the marines, but he did not like that, to the same extent, the military force should also be increased, which would evidently be the effect of the present measure.
§ Mr. Crokersaid, it was impossible to deny that this arrangement would relieve that portion of the army which was now employed in the dock-yards, and pro tanto, Would increase the disposable military force. The number of men that would be relieved by this additional vote of marines was about 1,200.
§ The motion was then agreed to. Sir G. Warrender then moved, "That a sum not exceeding 650,325l. be granted to his majesty, for wages of the said 23,000 men, for 13 lunar months, at the rate of 2l. 3s. 6d. per man per month," also, "that 612,950l. be granted, for victuals for the said 23,000 men, for 13 lunar months, at the rate of 2l. 1s. per man per month."
Mr. Baringasked, what was the reason that the charge for victuals was 1s. per man per month greater than it was in the vote of last session?
§ Sir G. Warrendercould hot state the exact reason, but the officers who made the estimate found that the addition was necessary.
Sir B. Martinsaid the sum voted last year was found to be inadequate, and it was necessary that the charge should be fully covered. Therefore the additional shilling was put on, and for no other reason.
Mr. Baringdid not mean to oppose any part of the service, but when the hon. baronet came down to vote the navy-estimates, and made any alteration in the items, he had a right to state to the House on what ground he made it. It was the paramount duty of that House to inquire into all appropriations of money, and therefore he called for information.
The Chancellor of the Exchequersaid, that the vote of last sesion was insufficient, and therefore it was proposed on this oc- 575 casion to vote 1s. more per man per month; because, on calculation, it was Found that such an increase was necessary to meet the expenditure.
§ Sir G. Warrendersaid, in proposing this vote, he relied on the judgment and opinion of those gentlemen who belonged to the department and whose duty it was to look into and consider the subject. Better authority he thought he could not have. He could not presume to go into minor details of this kind; and when he received from official authority, a statement that such a charge was correct, and that it must be laid before parliament, he felt himself justified in coming down to the House and proposing the vote.
Mr. Baringconsidered it to be the duty of the hon. baronet, when he called for any augmented vote, to state the grounds on which he applied for such augmentation. The estimates should be moved by some person who could give to the House all necessary information on the subject.
§ The motion was then agreed to.