ORDNANCE ESTIMATES. (Hansard, 17 March 1817)

§ Mr. R. Ward
said, it was his intention to move a vote on account, as had been done, with regard to the army and navy estimates; and that no farther supply should be granted at present for the service of the ordnance department, than for the six months ending on the 30th June, 1817. He trusted that the accounts were not likely to give rise to much altercation: and he deemed it right to state to the House what had been the extent of the different reductions in this branch of the public expenditure. The charge for the ordinary service was this year 538,175l., which was less than the former estimate by the sum of 135,000l. The extraordinaries amounted to 211,784l., leaving a reduction under this head of expense of 104,000l. The aggregate charge was 749,959l. Credit had been taken for 53,000l., from the sale of horses and old stores. Here the hon. gentleman entered upon a statement of the reductions in Ireland. The total amount of the whole expense for the year, for Great Britain and Ireland, would be, in round numbers, 942,000l. In time of full war, the number of men employed was 31,600. In 1815, this number was reduced to the extent of 3,800 men; in 1816, to that of 15,000 more; and the present establishment consisted only of 9,300l. He should content himself at present with moving, § 1134 "That a sum not exceeding 248,000l., be granted to his majesty for the charge of the office of ordnance for land service, from the 1st of January to the 30th of June 1817."

Mr. Bennet
considered, that it would be more advantageous to postpone the general discussion upon this subject till the whole of the estimates should be before the House. He rose chiefly for the purpose of expressing the surprise with which he had read an advertisement purporting to issue from the ordnance board, addressed to map-sellers, and forbidding them to make any use or publish any copies of the trigonometrical surveys of the country, which had been taken at the public expense, under the immediate direction of the ordnance board. This appeared to him to be acting in the spirit of a pedlering trader, rather than of a public department. Many could not afford to purchase the original chart, and by this prohibition, the general object of utility would be defeated. It was not upon this principle that foreign governments acted. In Paris any one might go to the map-board, and see not only those which were, but those which were not published.

§ Mr. R. Ward
said, it was intended that the sale of the maps should defray their expense, and that was the reason why the property in them had been so carefully guarded. He was surprised that the hon. gentleman, who was so zealous for economy in every branch of the public expenditure, should object to a proceeding which would prevent the necessity of recurring to the usual annual grant of 10,000l., for carrying on that undertaking.

§ Sir M. W. Ridley
was glad, however late, to see ministers taking credit for economy; but he observed, that the first article in these estimates was the sum of 43,793l. to the master-general, principal officers, and others in this department. This was an increase to the heads of the department amounting to 10,000l. above the sum voted when the estimates were between three and four millions, although they were now less than one million. It was to a reduction of such salaries that the public looked for effectual retrenchment, and not to savings made by the sacrifice, of works of national importance and utility.

§ Mr. R. Ward
said, that instead of the sum alluded to by the hon. baronet being incurred by the heads of the department, it was, in fact, the tails of the department 1135 that had caused such an expense. In consequence of the greatly increased extent of the ordnance service, it had been found impossible to do without a very large number of clerks and subordinate officers at the Tower and in Pall-mall, and it was chiefly to defray their salaries that the sum of 43,793l., was required.

§ Mr. Calcraft
said, that with respect to reductions in general, if the hon. gentleman referred to a state of full war, the present establishments were great; but the House must now look to peace establishments. If ministers thought themselves obliged to keep up the ordnance, he must say, that their estimates were extremely large. He admitted that very considerable efforts at reduction had been made, but they might be carried still farther in the army and ordnance. He should by no means press for any farther reductions in the navy. He did not know, indeed, whether the navy was not too much reduced already.

§ Mr. Brougham
desired to express his approbation of the great reductions in the ordnance, and hoped it would be the model and scale on which other reductions would be made. Something, he hoped, would be proposed by the committee above stairs; but he anticipated, with great satisfaction, that after Easter the House would be able to resume some of those functions which appeared now to be too much in abeyance.