MOTION FOR A COMMITTEE ON THE PUBLIC INCOME AND EXPENDITURE.

HC Deb 07 February 1817 vol 35 cc252-308

Lord Castlereagh moved, that the part of the speech of his royal highness the Prince Regent, at the opening of the session, particularly addressed to the House of Commons, be now read, and it was accordingly read by the clerk as follows:

"The distresses consequent upon the termination of a war of such unusual extent and duration have been felt, with greater or less severity, throughout all the nations of Europe, and have been considerably aggravated by the unfavourable state of the season.

"Deeply as I lament the pressure of these evils upon this country, I am sensible that they are of a nature not to admit of an immediate remedy; but whilst I observe with peculiar satisfaction the fortitude with which so many privations have been borne, and the active benevolence which has been employed to mitigate them, I am persuaded that the great sources of our national prosperity are essentially unimpaired, and I entertain a confident expectation that the native energy of the country will at no distant period surmount all the difficulties in which we are involved."

Lord Castlereagh

observed, that in calling the attention of the House to that part of the Prince Regent's speech which they had just heard read, and to the subject to which the passage in question related, he was confident that every member would feel, that the attention of the House had never been called to a subject in which the vital interests of the country were more deeply involved. It had been the misfortune of those who had for many years past sat as representatives in parliament, to have had that duty to perform in times in which the intervals of peace had been so short, that the whole scope of public measures and expenditure had been calculated upon and governed by a war policy. Notwithstanding, how-ever, the burthens which they were under the necessity of imposing on the nation, and the many hardships and privations to which the people had been exposed, they had still the consolation to reflect, that the object and effect of the exertions which they had made, and the course of policy upon which they had acted, had been to protect the country against a far greater calamity than any that, in the progress, or at the close of the war, had visited the nation. They had the consolation to think, that they had, with whatever difficulty, carried the- country, and successfully carried it, through a career of contest such as it had never before been engaged in, unexampled in its vicissitudes and dangers, and upon which its vital safety and existtence as a nation depended. After having discharged these arduous duties, he trusted that they would now, with equal resolution, perseverance, and success, apply themselves to those measures which in time of peace were necessary to secure the stability and prosperity of the country, to recruit its resources, and prepare it for any future contest in which it might be called upon to engage. It was a material feature in their present situation that they came now, he might say for the first time, to the consideration of what might be a proper scale of expenditure, and what might be the proper financial arrangements, with reference to a state of peace: for the last year, as to expenditure at least, had too much of the character of war to enable them to come with effect to the due consideration of so large, important, and interesting a subject. Now, however, the time was come when the House ought to consider what would be a proper permanent system for a peace establishment; and he trusted that gentlemen would bring to the subject now about to occupy their attention, that combination of firmness and moderation which they so eminently exhibited in the course of that arduous contest in which Great Britain had been so long involved. He was sure the House would go along with him when he laid down this as an incontrovertible maxim, that no country, especially a country with such an accumulation of debt as now pressed upon this country, could ever consider its prosperity in time of peace established on a firm and secure foundation, unless its expenditure was reduced, not only to the level, but below the level of its revenue. This was the only system by which the great object in view could be attained; for in no other way could the permanent peace establishment of any country be considered as fixed upon a sound and wise footing. Unless this system were adopted and acted upon with perseverance, the country could never be brought to the condition which would enable it, when called on, to cope with new difficulties: upon that principle, therefore, their measures of reduction must be calculated. The circumstances under which they came to the consideration of this important subject ought not to discourage them. It was impossible that in the course of one year the consequences of the great change which had taken place could have passed over; and it ought to be remembered, that the same difficulties were experienced at the close of the American war in 1783. But he trusted, that though the last year had not been marked with such symptoms of returning prosperity as were desirable, and though the executive government had not been able to reduce the expenditure during the last year to the extent required by that policy which it was now necessary to adopt, and the country consequently had not yet begun to reap the benefits of that policy; yet he was not without hope, that the time when the principle of reduction would begin effectually to operate would arrive at an earlier period after the close of the war, than it had done after the termination of the war in 1783. In the ordinary course in which the business of the state had been submitted to parliament, it was usual to lay before the House the estimates for the navy in the first instance, and subsequently those of the army, and the other branches of the public service; but in the present instance, before the House came to the general investigation of the subject, he thought it would be convenient to give such a general description of the reductions intended to be made, and the scale of expenditure proposed to be adopted, with regard to the different services, as would give the House some idea of the system intended to be acted upon in this respect, with reference to the several branches of the public establishment to which he was about to call their attention. Some gentlemen had expressed an opinion that it would have been more consistent with the duties of the ministers, and of parliament, if this system had been commenced in the course of last year; or if parliament had been called together at an earlier period, for the purpose of carrying it into effect; but he trusted, even these gentlemen would, on reflection, be convinced that they had been mistaken. It was not in the first year after a war that much reduction in the war establishments and in the war expenditure could in sound policy be effected; and it would always be the best course of proceeding for parliament to impose upon the ministers the duty of submitting to its consideration such an establishment as they thought requisite, with reference to times and circumstances, instead of taking the task into its own hands, and endeavouring to run a race with the servants of the crown, for a purpose which the servants of the crown might be supposed, in the first instance at least, much better able to accomplish. He trusted that the cause of economy had not lost any thing by the delay which had taken place, and the course which had been pursued by the servants of the crown. He trusted that gentlemen would, on reflection, be satisfied that the time which had elapsed, during which the proper inquiries had been going on, and the proper preliminaries had been in progress towards settlement, had not been lost to the great object which they all had in view: and he did firmly believe, that though they had begun with measures of reduction at the very earliest period that could have entered into the contemplation of any man, these reductions could not possibly have been brought practically to operate sooner than they would now do. He was sure the House would be convinced of this, would they only consider, that no less than 300,000 men, soldiers, and sailors, had been discharged since the termination of the war, and left to provide an honest livelihood for themselves, without disgracing the glories which they had acquired in their long career in the public cause. The reduction was in fact as great as it could have been, whatever measures had been adopted with that view in the course of the last session. It was not his intention now to go minutely through the several heads of expenditure in the several branches of our establishments for the present year. The House would have the whole matter more particularly under its view when the several estimates should be given in and examined: but he was desirous to state, that, in order to prevent the House from being fettered by the votes which it might be necessary to call for while the subject of the finances was under consideration of the committee, for the appointment of which he intended to move, they would not be required to vote sums for more than some months, so that the public service might be carried on in the mean time. The House, therefore, by the votes which must in the first instance be called for, would not be at all committed as to the final scale of expenditure which it might be thought expedient to adopt, when the committee should have terminated its labours, and when parliament might avail itself of the information which the investigations of that committee might supply. Since this was to be the course of proceeding, it would be unnecessary for him at this time to enter upon a minute statement of revenue and expenditure, as that subject would on a future occasion come more properly into discussion. His only object was, to give such a general description of the estimates for the present year, compared with those for the last year, as would bring the difference in a general way under the view of the House. He could assure the House that government had endeavoured to frame these measures with a strict reference to the situation of the country and the exigencies of the state; and in such a manner as appeared to them to form a wise combination of economy and safety. If it had been the intention of the servants of the crown to lay before the House any new system of finance, his right hon. friend (the chancellor of the exchequer) must have brought it forward, as he felt himself but little competent to the task. But a general statement would be proper, before parliament entered upon the investigation of that most important subject—the state of the finances of the country. It was the duty of parliament now to enter upon that investigation, and he assured the hon. gentlemen opposite, that the servants of the crown were so far from wishing to avoid, that they courted investigation. They were ready to receive, and turn to the best advantage, all the lights upon this interesting subject that could be supplied by the gentlemen on the other side of the House; for they reckoned it their highest pride and glory to do every thing in their power to find out the best system for the administration of the finances of the country. Much of the greatness and security of this nation depended on our navy and army: but glorious as had been the exertions of these branches of the public service, and never before had the naval and military reputation of the country stood so high, no army, no navy, had stood this country in greater stead, or had more contributed to its security, than its public credit. To support that credit, it was necessary that the expenditure should be placed upon a proper footing; and that, if lie might use the expression, the nation should now begin to live within its income. They might differ perhaps about means, but it must be the object of all to preserve the credit of the country unimpaired; and never had it happened, and never, he trusted, would it happen, that England, even when struggling under the pressure of distress, had attempted or would attempt to gain relief and ease by a failure in the performance of its honourable engagements. This happy and hallowed country, England (for great and happy she unquestionably was, notwithstanding her present temporary difficulties) disdained to purchase a moment of ease and strength by violating the good faith to which she stood honourably and conscientiously pledged. Having premised these general observations, he should now proceed, in as summary a way as was consistent with the object in view, to state the reductions in the several branches of the public service, and the estimates for the year, as compared with those for the last year. First, then, he requested the attention of the House to the subject of the army expenditure; and, in comparing the expense for the present year with that for the last year, the best mode, perhaps, would be to consider the troops in France and India as out of the question for the present, as these did not bear upon the estimates of the public expenditure of this country. With respect to the land forces, then, the numbers for the last year for this country and Ireland, and the colonies, was 99,000 men—53,000 for the home service, and 46,000 for the foreign establishment. The number at home was to be reduced by 5,000 men, the reduction of the troops abroad was to be 13,000; making a total reduction of 18,000 men. He did not at present think it necessary to state the particular circumstances which had regulated these reductions; but had no hesitation in stating, that they were made under a strong sense of the pressure of the moment, and this he declared lest the reasons for the measure might be misapprehended. On that account ministers had felt it necessary in a great measure to put out of view the military defence of the colonies against any external attack, and to consider merely what was necessary for internal security. He thought that the present circumstances of the country justified such a policy, because there might be a price beyond which it would be improper to go for putting these colonies in a complete state of defence. But as to the home defence, there was no price that could be too great for that object; and the only question was, what was the proper and necessary force for the external and internal protection of the state, and the rights and liberties of the people? and events had pressed upon them of late which sufficiently proved, that the magistrates were unable to enforce the laws by means of the civil power alone, without the aid of a military force; and that the forces for home defence ought not therefore to be reduced to too low a standard. The number then for the service of Great Britain, Ireland, and the colonies, would now be 81,016 men, as compared with 99,000, the number for the last year, there being a reduction of 5,000 men in the home establishment, and 13,000 in the colonial, a reduction upon the whole of 18,000 men. The total number for which a vote had been taken last year was 150,000 men; the total number for which the vote of this year would be proposed was only 123,000 men. The reason for this was, by the convention with France, the number of our troops there was to be reduced from 30,000 to 25,000 men, and the number of the government troops in. India from 20,000 to 17,000 men. So that the vote for the British, Irish, and colonial establishments, would be for this year 81,016 men, as compared with 99,000 men voted last year; and the total number voted for this year would be 123,000, instead of 150,000 voted last year. In the estimates, there would appear a sum of 220,000l. to be provided for, on account of regiments which had not returned from abroad, but which were on their way home, and in a course of reduction. He should now merely state, that in the estimates the whole of the army vote would be 6,538,000l. for the land forces; but the other contingent branches would bring it up to 6,830,000l. which, with the addition of the expenses occasioned by the militia, would make the whole total 7,050,000l. The commissariat in Great Britain would be 500,000l. This expenditure would be admitted as one which must necessarily be incurred by the country, as it was disbursed in the purchase of bread, meat, and fodder, under particular circumstances, and it was naturally much increased by the enhanced price of provisions. With respect to the barrack establishment, it had been so far reduced as from 178,000l. which it lately cost, to no more than from 70,000l. to 80,000l. The total demand for the commissariat and barrack departments might be taken at 880,000l. for Great Britain and Ireland, 580,000l. for the former, and 300,000l. for the latter.

The army extraordinaries for this year would be 1,300,000l. The total charge for the army, with the exception of the ordnance, for the present year would be 9,230,000l. The total charge for the last year was 10,564,000l. There would therefore be a saving in the army estimates of 1,334,000l. The charge for ordnance last year was 1,696,000l. that in the estimates to be proposed for the present year was 1,246,000l. making a saving of 450,000l. This saving was chiefly effected by a reduction of 3,000 men in the artillery, and the consolidation of the sappers and miners. Added to the reduction of 1,334,000l. which he had stated would take place in the charge for the army, it would make the sum that would be saved on the army and ordnance 1,784,000l. He wished now to call the attention of the House to this particular feature of the proposed army expenditure, that of the 6,538,000l., which he had just stated it was proposed to vote for the army services, a sum of about 2,551,000l. was unconnected with the services of the present year, and would go to the discharge of the sums pledged by parliament in half-pay, pensions, &c. to the disbanded troops; so that in point of fact the proposed estimate for the military service of the present year would be under 4,000,000l. It was also evident that the saving by the reduction of force would be much greater if it were not counteracted in a certain degree by the addition which that reduction made to the half-pay list, and to the list of pensioners, which amounted, though certainly not to an equivalent, yet to a diminution of the sum that would otherwise be saved by a third, and in some cases by a half. He would proceed to the consideration of the reductions which had been made in the navy estimates. Last session the House had voted 33,000 for the service of the navy, of which as 10,000 were in the progress of reduction, it was understood that only 23,000 wore to be looked to as the permanent establishment for the year. Since that his majesty's government had fully considered the various circumstances, comprehending both our foreign relations, and our internal distresses, which would render a further reduction practicable; and the result was, that it appeared to them advisable to propose to the House a vote of 18,000 seamen, instead of 23,000, for the service of the present year; 19,000 men, however, would in fact be proposed to be voted for the service of the navy, as it was intended not to diminish the royal marines—a force so connected with the rapid re-equipment of a naval force, that those who had the conduct of our naval affairs were decidedly of opinion, that it ought not to be crippled or broken down, but maintained at its present establishment of 6,000 men. Of course a large reduction would take place in the ships of war, and in the wear and tear, and other various expenses connected with them. Last year the charge for the navy was 10,114,000l. The charge that would be proposed for the present year was 6,397,000l.; making a reduction in this particular of 3,717,000l. He had also the satisfaction to state, that there was in the proposed charge of 6,397,000l. for the present year, a considerable item—no less a sum than 500,000l. which would not appear in the estimates of future years; as it was for the payment of a transport debt, in the progress of liquidation. He next came to the consideration of the miscellaneous services. The charge for Great Britain and Ireland for the last year was 2,500,000l. The charge to be proposed for the present year was 1,500,000l.; being a diminution of 1,000,000l. The saving, therefore, on the four branches of the public service which he had enumerated, would stand thus:—

Army	£.1,334,000
Ordnance	450,000
Navy	3,717,000
Miscellaneous	1,000,000
Total Reduction	£.6,501,000

The aggregate of the charges to be proposed for the present year, comprehending all the various branches of the public service, would stand thus:

Army	£.7,050,000
Commissariat and Barracks	880,000
Extraordinaries	1,300,000
Ordnance	1,246,000
Navy	6,397,090

Miscellaneous	1,500,000
Gross total of charge	£.18,373,000

The estimates, therefore, which in the conscientious discharge of their public duty, his majesty's government would propose to the House for the service of the present year, would amount to this sum of 18,373,000l. This sum, under every view of the public exigencies, it appeared to them absolutely necessary to provide. But it would be unfair to themselves not to request that the House would distinguish between those items, which might be more durable from those which, although voted for the present year, would in all probability not recur. He would not be guilty of the presumption of speculating on any precise amount, at which the estimates for the next year might probably be fixed. Any pledges of that description were worse than useless, for in public as well as in private life, it was impossible for any individual to say that no incidental and unforeseen expense might arise which would utterly disconcert any anticipated arrangement. But although it was certainly possible that circumstances might occur, of a nature not to be predicted, to increase our expenses in some respects, yet on the other hand it was to be hoped that other circumstances might occur of which we might take advantage, to decrease our expenses in other respects. He repeated, however, his wish that the House would look at this sum of 18,373,000l. with a reference to the character of the items, as probably permanent or otherwise. In the item for the army for instance, 220,000l. was for the purpose of defraying the expense of regiments, all of which were actually in a progress of reduction. The extraordinaries, as well as could be anticipated, would be reduced in amount by 300,000l. In the estimate of the ordnance, diminished as the charge had been as far as it was possible to diminish it, there was still 50,000l. to be voted for a branch of the service, which was also in a progress of reduction. With respect to the navy, he had also stated, that 500,000l. of the sum which it would be proposed to vote was for the liquidation of a transport debt. The various items therefore of expense in the proposed estimates which would not recur, stood as follows:

Army	220,000
Extraordinaries	300,000
Ordnance	50,000

Navy	500,000
	£.1,070.000

So that in point of fact it was not 18,373,000l. that was about to be proposed as the total charge for the public service for the present year, but only 17,303,000l. There was another view of the subject also which he was desirous that the House should take. He was desirous that they should distinguish between those charges which were for services that had been performed, and those charges which were for services that were to be performed. He had already stated that the army estimates to be proposed contained a sum of 2,551,000l. for services that had actually been performed. If charges of the same description were separated from the navy estimates, they would be found to amount to 1,271,000l. Those in the ordnance were 223,000l. Taking, therefore, these three services together, as thus,

Army	2,551,000
Navy	1,271,000
Ordnance	223,000
	£.4,045,000

it appeared that no less a sum than 4,045,000l. would be voted for charges wholly unconnected with the service of the present year, and which charges must be defrayed were every ship to be instantly paid off, and every soldier instantly disbanded. When, therefore, the House was occupied in contemplating the great existing charge of the army and navy, compared with that of former times, particularly during the last peace, he entreated that they would always separate from the proposed charge those sums which (many of them growing up with the peculiar circumstances of the late war) and dictated by every principle of justice and gratitude towards the great merits of those who had brought it to so glorious a termination), were wholly unconnected with the service of the present year. Deducting therefore the sum of 1,070,000 for expenses which would not recur, and the sum of 4,045,000l. for services already performed, and consequently utterly unconnected with the services of the present year, it was evident that the whole charge proposed for the army, ordnance, and navy, for the present year would not exceed 13,258,000l. He trusted, therefore, that instead of 18,373,000l. the House would allow him to request that they would fix their attention on 13,258,000l., as the true sum which was to be the subject of comparison with the expense of any former period. It would be occupying too much of the time of the House to enter into any minute examination of the comparison, that it might prima facie be thought desirable by some to institute between the charges of the present period and those of the year 1792. The House would, however, recollect, that it was not until a gradual reduction of 6 years, that in 1792 Mr. Pitt, when all apprehensions of external danger had vanished, did bring the estimates down to 5,200,000l. Let it be also remembered, that Mr. Pitt had at that time to provide for the service of only one branch of the United Kingdom; and that the service of Ireland was included in the estimates now to be proposed. The state of Ireland, at that period, was very different from that in which it unfortunately was at present. In 1792, the separate charges for Ireland were a million, making a total charge for Great Britain and Ireland of 6,200,000l. The present proposed charge for Great Britain and Ireland was 13,258,000l. being certainly double the amount of the charge in 1792. There were many circumstances, however, which combined to occasion this difference. One, most important, was the great increase of our colonies, and the consequent great increase of the expenses attendant on them. Another important circumstance was, the extraordinary situation in which Europe had been for so many years placed, the great social change which had arisen out of the French revolution, and the necessity under which the government of every country naturally felt itself to exercise a more than ordinary degree of vigilance. Independently of these two considerations, the House would allow him to say that the measures adopted by that House, would have occasioned a considerable increase of expense even had the service to be performed remained the same. If the increase of the pay of the army were alone considered, it would be enough to show that between the expense of the present period, and that of 1792, no fair comparison could be made. The pay of the soldier had been nearly doubled since that time. But it was not pay only. Many allowances had been granted to the troops both at home and abroad, which increased the unfairness of any such comparison. He would merely state the difference of the expense of a single regiment, to put this out of all doubt. In 1792 the expense of a regiment of cavalry for the year was twenty-eight thousand pounds. Now it was 38,000l. It would, therefore, be most unjust if any comparison between the estimates of the two periods should raise a prejudice against the general principle on which the reductions proposed by his majesty's government proceeded. In looking also at the probable charge for the next year, it must be recollected that a great part of the 4,000,000l. which he had already stated to be connected with those retired from active service, must be progressively falling in. He was sure the country would bear with the greatest patience, and indeed gratitude, the expense which went to the support of those who had so eminently distinguished themselves in their country's cause; but still it was a fact that the expense must progressively diminish. It would diminish, not merely by the death of the individuals respecting whom it was incurred, but by the appointments which his majesty's government would think it their duty to make from those individuals, so retired, to fill up active situations that might become vacant. He had inquired what it was probable would be the reduction of this sum in a course of years. There were about 100,000 persons, 56,000 of whom were in the army who were now in the receipt of pensions and half-pay. Supposing that on the average each person was about forty years of age, he understood it was probable, that in about twenty years half those individuals would have ceased to exist. This would be about 2,500l. in the year. It might, therefore, be fairly expected that about 100,000l. of this expense would fall in annually. But, however large the proposed estimates might appear, he trusted it would appear to the House that government had exerted themselves as far as they could, without incurring risks which they were not warranted to run, so to frame them that the expenses of the country might be brought at as early a period as possible within its income. The House was aware that in any view which had been taken of our financial state, the possibility in the present year, of entirely defraying the expenses out of the revenue, had never been contemplated. But if such a hope had ever been entertained, the remission, last year, of 18,000,000l. in direct taxes, must altogether have destroyed the ex- § pectation. Really, it was any thing but a discouraging view of the situation of the country to observe, that at the close of the most arduous struggle in which this or any other nation had ever been engaged, the public affairs had been so conducted as to enable us to make the most stupendous exertions during war, and in the first year after the restoration of peace to remit so large a sum in direct taxation as eighteen millions; as well as subsequently to make such an arrangement of our expenditure as to leave the balance between that and our means of a consoling description.—His right hon. friend would state to the House the details of the financial part of this question. But he trusted, that in his general statement he had not been inaccurate, and that he was justified in assuming, as a justification of the scale of expenditure recommended, that were it not for the peculiar circumstances of the times by which an unexpected diminution had occurred in the surplus of the consolidated fund, the revenue would have exceeded the expenditure by 3 or 4,000,000l. Against this sum there would certainly have been to set the provision necessary to be made for the unfunded debt. This provision in the shape of interest, would amount to 2,300,000l. Deducting that sum, the balance in favour of the country would have been a million or a million and a half, had not the peculiar and distressing circumstances of the times occasioned this great defalcation in the revenue. Had that stood as it had hitherto done, there would have been a positive and considerable amelioration of our financial state. Even had we only the income and expenditure of Great Britain to attend to, there would be a better prospect of a favourable balance; but a very material cause of the existing difficulty was the incorporation which had taken place of the revenues of Great Britain and Ireland, and the consequent pledge to Ireland to make good her financial deficiencies, a pledge both just and politic. He trusted it would appear that the proposed charges had been calculated on the principle of an economy not pushed beyond that which our safety and the well being of the state required. But while he stated this, and while he contended that a gloomy view of the future was by no means to be entertained, but that on the contrary there was no reason to doubt that prosperity would speedily return, he would be the last man in the House to disguise the fact that the present was a year of the severest pressure on all classes of the community, and that there was no individual in society, from the highest to the lowest ranks, who did not sensibly feel the hardships which it had pleased Providence to inflict. It was little consonant to the generous feelings of the British nation to derive consolation from the circumstance; but it was nevertheless a fact, that they were not alone in their present calamities. If our calamities could be soothed by a fellowship in distress, we need only look to the continent to find sources of consolation. The unfortunate deficiencies of the last season, and the great pressure which the late war had occasioned, were operating more or less severely on every state in Europe. He felt that he should be justified in declaring, that the existing distresses in this country were more supportable than they were in any extended portion of the continent. But, whatever it might be comparatively, our situation was without doubt one of positive and considerable hardship. There was great suffering in the country: he was happy to add that there had been exhibited great ardour to relieve that suffering. That desire to lighten the burthens of the destitute by sharing them, that generous sympathy which bound all classes of society together in this happy land, and diffused a general spirit of beneficence and charity, had wrought not only within the limits of law, but had exerted itself in public and in private with spontaneous efforts beyond any thing ever witnessed on any former occasion. Strong as that feeling had shown itself every where, he could assure the House that it existed no where more strongly than in the highest quarter in the nation. The illustrious individual who exercised the royal functions in this country, having had the glory of eminently contributing to the deliverance of Europe, was now anxious to enjoy that of contributing to the relief of the people, and had authorized him to state, that he was desirous to abstain from receiving such a portion of that part of the civil list appropriated to the expenses of the royal household as in the judgment of his constitutional servants he might forego without incurring the reproach of parliament by running the civil list in debt, and applying for subsequent assistance for its discharge. Not only was his royal highness anxious to contribute out of the sum which he derived from the civil list for the support of his royal household, but also out of the sums accruing from the two other sources of a more personal nature whence his revenue proceeded. The sum which his Royal Highness was desirous to give up was 50,000l., being about a fifth of his whole receipts; which were as follows: 209,000l. from that fourth part of the civil list (which it ought always to be remembered was the only branch of the civil list connected with the personal expenses, or the royal state of the sovereign; for all the other heads of charge included in the civil list were as much for paying public services as the sums included in the estimates which he had that night mentioned), 60,000l. from the privy purse; and 10,000l. from the duchy of Cornwall. His Royal Highness, desirous to share the privations and sufferings of his majesty's subjects, as he had partaken in their glory, anxiously wished that the sum thus offered to the public service was more correspondent with his feelings; but it was the duty of his Royal Highness's constitutional advisers to take care that no danger should be incurred of running the civil list in debt, or rendering necessary a subsequent application to parliament on the subject. Even the present sacrifice, suspending as it must do the services of many useful individuals, could not be continued without involving the civil list in considerable difficulties. But, for the gratification of his own feelings, his Royal Highness could not deny himself the satisfaction of making it; ardently hoping that the distressing circumstances of the country which rendered it advisable might never recur. Large as the sum was, it was not so splendid in amount as it was splendid in principle, exhibiting, as it did, a warm sympathy for the sufferings of the people. It would be received by the country as a proof of the warm sympathy which his Royal Highness felt in every calamity that affected the people. He (lord Castlereagh) had also to state, that the public servants of the crown were also anxious to come forward and offer their assistance under the present circumstances. They were willing to contribute that which the property-tax, had it been continued, would have taken from them. Last year that would have been levied, including all the salaries and allowances of the various officers of the state, on about 900,000l. This year, in consequence of the reductions which had taken place, the sum would not be so large; but at the same time it would not be contemptible. To this proceeding, however, the sanction of parliament would be necessary. He had now only one point to submit to the consideration of the House, namely, the course which it would be the best to pursue, for the purpose of instituting an earnest parliamentary inquiry into the public income and expenditure. He had been asked the other evening, what course it was his intention to recommend? and his answer then was, that he meant to propose the established course, namely, the appointment of a select committee by ballot. This declaration seemed to excite great alarm on the other side of the House. An hon. and learned gentleman, in particular, had made a speech not distinguished for its novelty; for an hon. member of that House, now no more, had for many years expressed precisely similar sentiments, whenever the question of ballot was agitated in parliament. He allowed that the mode of appointing a committee by ballot was open to all the insinuations which it appeared to be the hon. and learned gentleman's intention to convey against it. Still, however he did not think that the House would join the hon. and learned gentleman, in reprobating a practice established by the usage of ages. He was yet to learn, that members who appointed a committee by ballot were more under the observation of those who, by the hon. and learned gentleman, were supposed to influence their private judgment than when they were called upon to act in a more ostensible manner. He had high authority for maintaining the superiority of ballot to any other mode of election; for it had been contended by many, that even the principal of universal suffrage would not be productive of a fair representation of the people without it! But without any arguments on the subject, he could assure the hon. and learned gentleman that, referring simply to the advantages which had been derived from committees appointed in that manner, they came with strong recommendations to the favour of the country. In particular, the committee of 1797, to whose labours the nation was indebted for information so voluminous and so valuable, was appointed by ballot. He was not aware on the other evening, that subsequently to the year 1797 the House appointed a similar committee, not by ballot, but by nomination. But really, if the result were to be taken as the criterion of the respective merits of committees so variously appointed, there would be no difficulty in preferring the former to the latter precedent. Having for his object to appoint a committee which would possess the confidence of the House and the country, he should hesitate to adopt the principle on which the committee of 1807 was appointed, not being able to perceive any good consequence resulting from it; any abstinence from ministerial interference, or any deference to individual character in its composition.—What were the circumstances of the case in 1807? An hon. gentleman, no longer a member of that House, and whom he might therefore name, Mr. Biddulph, moved for the appointment of a committee to inquire into all offices which might be abolished without detriment to the public service. From the principles of independence and absence of undue influence so strongly recommended by the hon. gentleman opposite, it was natural to suppose that the government of that period would be anxious to further the hon. gentleman's object, and to allow him to select those individuals who appeared to him the best calculated to carry it into effect. No such thing. They did not allow Mr. Biddulph to nominate the committee. They seemed to think it a great favour to allow a single individual to sit in that committee on Mr. Biddulph's nomination. That individual, Mr. Biddulph himself, sat there in solitude, accompanied by twenty-two other gentlemen appointed by the administration. Mr. Biddulph was absolutely precluded from proceeding with his nomination, the chancellor of the exchequer of that day relieving him from all puzzle on the subject, by naming the whole committee; of the members of which, nineteen were in the constant habit of voting with the administration then in power. However, notwithstanding this bad example, and notwithstanding his disbelief in the corruption attributed to their ancestors, in consequence of their preference of an appointment by ballot to an appointment by nomination; yet deprecating, as he earnestly did, any circumstance calculated at the very outset of the proceeding to diminish the candour, the temper, and the liberality with which he trusted the subject would be treated on both sides— not conceiving it a question of parlia- mentary contest, but one of general and vital interest—he was anxious, if he could, to obviate all possible misconception; and had therefore no hesitation in saying, that although it was his original intention to propose the election of the committee by ballot, that intention he would willingly abandon, and follow the precedent of 1807; which precedent had indeed so far been confirmed, as to have been adopted in the appointment of several committees on the civil list. An hon. gentleman had said, that such a committee as that which he was about to move for should be composed of members quite impartial in their views. But this qualification, which was deemed indispensable, was, he was sorry to say, far from being a common one, and as the committee was to consist of 21, he should be quite at a loss to fill it up, if he were to be restricted to that consideration. There were some gentlemen, indeed, in the House, who, with great honour to themselves, and no doubt with great advantage to their country, reserved their minds for an impartial consideration of every topic;—but they were not very numerous, nor were they treated with peculiar respect by the other side of the House. Indeed, if any one thing was viewed by the gentlemen on the other side of the House with more peculiarly hostile feelings than another, it was an attempt to set up an independence of opinion—and if ever they felt the inconvenience of that independence to their own views, they resented it with peculiar acrimony. Rejecting, therefore, the visionary prospect of choosing the committee out of that rare and pure class of mortals, he should fairly nominate to it members of both parties. Although he did not share all the indisposition which had been manifested towards the class of impartial persons—he went to a certain degree with those who objected to them; for he was perfectly ready to allow that public business could not be better managed, or so well managed, if it were not for the system of parties; and on his conscience he believed that whatever of human happiness was to be found in this country in a greater degree than in the other countries of Europe, was to be attributed to that conflict of parties, chastened by the principles of the constitution, and subdued by the spirit of decorum. To this honourable and liberal, but animated and determined contest of parties, was, he would repeat, to be attributed the envied superiority of this country in public happiness, and wisdom, and liberty. In the appointment of the committee, he agreed with the gentlemen on the other side of the House, that there should be kept in view the necessity of sifting the financial concerns of the country to the bottom. He had no hesitation in admitting that until the public mind (not that disordered spirit which assumed to itself the exclusive province of reform; but the sober part of the community, which constituted its strength) was satisfied respecting what should or could be done as to the income and expenditure, the people would not be in that temper best calculated to overcome the difficulties of their situation.— Bearing this object in mind, there never was an inquiry, from assisting in which it was more necessary not to exclude official persons, although official men, or expectants of office ought not to predominate in its formation. A judge on the bench would not be placed in a situation of greater difficulty if called on to decide without hearing the arguments of counsel, than the gentlemen unconnected with office would feel if called on to decide without the advantage of the arguments and explanation of those who now held office; and those gentlemen opposite, who, he trusted, would fill official situations hereafter, if the confidence of the crown should be withdrawn from the present ministers; for he trusted the country would never be delivered over to the guidance of the wild reformers. The committee would thus be composed of the best talents on both sides of the House for matters of detail, with the addition of some gentlemen who might be considered as judges between them. The House, however, he was persuaded, would not suffer the committee to decide on any question for it. It would be degrading to the House to delegate its duties to any set of men, however enlightened. They would probe the subject to the bottom, and by presenting to the House the result of their inquiries, would afford grounds for a sound exercise of the duties entrusted to them by the constitution, without entering into that consideration of the measures which it might be expedient to adopt for which they were not constituted. It would be a great advantage to the country if members would go into the inquiry with candour, with the wish of emulating each other in exertions for the public good, but without any desire of triumphing over each other in a cause in which the efforts of alt were required. He should, in the first place, refer to the committee all the estimates and reductions in the present year, in which, he trusted, it would be found that ministers had not neglected their duty. Some offices were suppressed, and others reduced. It was, however, to be recollected, that all the official reductions which were contemplated could not immediately take place, on account of the quantity of unaudited accounts which had accumulated. It would not be consistent with any sound views of economy suddenly to withdraw the means of auditing these accounts. The first object therefore, was to refer to the committee the state of the income and expenditure of the last year, of which the accounts were complete; the next, to submit to their consideration the year which they were in the progress of providing for; and the last, that of the next year, as far as it could be at present calculated. The objects of the committee would, perhaps, not be completed in the present session, as it was of the greatest consequence to lay down the principles of a peace establishment for succeeding years. He should, however, confine the attention of the committee, in the first place, to the three years which he had mentioned, and it would be open to the House to extend its powers at any time. He should therefore move, "That a select committee be appointed to inquire into and state the income and expenditure of the united kingdom for the year ended the 5th of January 1817; and also to consider and state the probable income and expenditure (so far as the same can now be estimated) for the years ending the 5th of January 1818 and the 5th of January 1819, respectively; and to report the same, together with their observations thereupon, to the House; and also to consider what further measures may be adopted for the relief of the country from any part of the said expenditure, without detriment to the public interest." He would, while on his legs, read the names which he should propose for nomination. They were, the Chancellor of the Exchequer, Mr. G. Ponsonby, Mr. Bankes, Mr. Long, Mr. Tierney, lord Binning, sir John Newport, Mr. Peel, Mr. Wynn, Mr. Arbuthnot, Mr. Frankland Lewis, Mr. Huskisson, Mr. Nicholson Calvert, Mr. Davies Gilbert, Mr. Cartwright, Mr. Holford, Mr. E. Littleton, lord Clive, Mr. Gooch, Sir T. Acland, and lord Castlereagh.

Mr. Tierney

said, it was impossible to follow the noble lord into the estimates which he had submitted to the House. Whenever he had an opportunity of forming a judgment on them, whether favourable or unfavourable, the noble lord might be assured he should state it with candour and temperance; for, after the speech of the noble lord, he should be inexcusable if he did not follow his good example. From what he could collect of the noble lord's statement, it confirmed the view of the subject, which he (Mr. T.) had the other night submitted to the House. The army, navy, ordnance, and miscellaneous services, according to the noble lord's estimate, amounted to 18,350,000l. He (Mr. T.) had assumed on a former occasion, that this expense would be 19 millions. There was not much difference between their statements, and if another item were added, the difference would be found to be less. The interest of the unfunded debt had been taken by him at 1,500,000l.; it was stated by the noble lord at 2,300,000l.; so that taking both items together, the statement which he had formerly made was very far from being inaccurate. Whatever opinion he entertained as to the estimates of the noble lord, he should not be warranted in stating it from the superficial acquaintance with it which he yet had; but there was one of the noble lord's general assertions which he had not been able to reconcile with his details. The noble lord had said, that since the reduction had been made, the income and expenditure would be brought nearly to a level. The noble lord, to be sure, had left out of his statement the ways and means, perhaps to avoid anticipating the chancellor of the exchequer, and lest the House might not be pleased with one speech instead of two. The amount of the ways and means, however, was a material feature (he begged the noble lord's pardon for using his own word) in the statement of the question. As to the sinking fund, it was not to be taken into account, as it was precisely the same thing if a sum equal to the sinking fund was borrowed—as if that fund were taken away. The noble lord had challenged the House to probe every thing to the bottom. This was a species of operation he himself had frequently been conjuring the House to resort to. His exhortations had been in vain. He was however glad that ministers at last saw what every body else had long seen—that the expenses of the country should be reduced to some reasonable proportion with its means. It was, however, impossible to probe the matter to the bottom, without considering the ways and means as well as the expenditure. Taking the produce of the consolidated fund at the rate of the year ending January 1817, with the war taxes, annual taxes, and the lottery, the whole ways and means amounted to 45,400,000l. Beyond that there might be some odds and ends, but this was the sum which only could be looked to. On the other hand, 48 millions were to be raised, assuming the establishment at 19 millions, and the interest of the unfunded debt at 1½ millions, or taking the increase on one article and the decrease on the other, according to the statement of the noble lord, the same result would appear. It was thus plain, that even if the whole of the sinking fund were applied to the public service, there would still be three millions to be raised in some way or other. With these figures which had not yet been contradicted, he could produce no other result. He should be glad if any one could show him his error. It was true, the noble lord might add to one side of the account. He (Mr. T.) had only taken the ordinary ways and means—the noble lord might refer to the extraordinary was and means. The statement which he (Mr. T.) had made was grounded upon the produce of the taxes in the year ending Jan. 1817. It might be stated in an estimate, that they would produce more in the year ending Jan. 1818, and the difficulty would thus in appearance be obviated. But he had before shown that from a variety of circumstances which it was then unnecessary to trouble the House with again, there was more reason to expect a diminution than an increase in the produce of the taxes. In the next year, therefore, unless a reduction of three millions was made upon the reduced estimates of ministers, the debt would go on increasing, and even if that reduction were made, there would not be a single farthing to spare. He was glad to hear that no encroachment was to be made upon the sinking fund, but that it was for the present, at least, to be held sacred. Throughout the period of his hostility to Mr. Pitt, he had always given him credit for that institution, and notwithstanding all that had been said and written upon it, no one could now be more disposed to hold inviolate this pledge to public credit. No consideration but absolute necessity, salus publica, should induce him to consent to trench upon it.

He next should come to the great topic of congratulation, the reduction of the expenses of the Crown. This was extremely satisfactory to him; he must have been a most extraordinary being if it had not been satisfactory to him, for there had not been a man in the House or the country who had been more incessantly urgent that the Crown should be advised to lead the way in retrenchment and economy. It was fitting that in times like these examples of economy should begin in the highest situation. The good news had come late—but be was happy that it had come at all. He regretted, he meant, that the advice had not been sooner given to his Royal Highness. The culpability of the ministers was apparent, from the manner in which the Prince Regent had received the advice when it was given—they might see from thence the disposition of his Royal Highness, and how easily the reduction might have been made twelve months ago. If the advice had been given at that time, much of the present discontent would not have existed. The next point was the reduction of the salaries of the officers of the Crown. The House recollected he had long ago been pressing this measure. It was extraordinary, that ministers could never be prevailed on to make these reductions but under the pressure of difficulties—that they must be extorted from them by want. These measures might a year ago have come from them with an excellent grace, but now the act would not obtain that reward which it would then have obtained. It would not now inspire that confidence— not in this or that ministry, but in the general government of the country, which it would then have been calculated to ensure. If he understood the noble lord (for his tone had been rather low as if the subject was not particularly agreeable to him), he talked of the necessity of an act of parliament to enable gentlemen to give up part of their salaries. He did not yet perceive the necessity of the act—for he remembered the time when sir James Pulteney had given up his salary as secretary at war, without the sanction of any statute. And here he would take the opportunity of saying, that be did not at that time nor did he now, approve of the circumstance of a man of large fortune accepting office and refusing any salary. It was an invidious precedent, operating to the prejudice of official men of moderate incomes. But though he thought it unfair that a man of great wealth should make a parade of receiving no salary at all, yet he conceived the quantity of salary suited to the duties of an office to be a very different question; and he certainly could not see the necessity of passing an act of parliament to enable men to give up part of their salaries if they thought fit so to do. Surely they might be indulged in so laudable an inclination without the intervention of legislative authority. Surely this (if any thing) was a thing which men could do of themselves. He would say nothing as to the mode of this intended reduction, except merely to urge that the rate of charge for the property tax was no criterion as to what ought to be its amount.

By-the-by, the noble lord had, with an air of great complacency, assumed the credit of having given up the property tax. The noble lord deserved but little praise on that score; as far as his wishes were concerned, it would never have been given up; he had, indeed, fought hard, and inch by inch, to preserve it. It was not the noble lord bestowing a boon, but it was the declared will of the people of England that forced his majesty's government to give up a tax so hateful to the whole nation. The people had shown a determination not to submit to the tax, and the house had acted as it ever bad and ever would act—it had obeyed the sense of the people, expressed by the voice of the respectable majority. Indeed, at all times, if the real majority of the nation showed itself firm and unanimous, the House would comply with its reasonable wishes. This was the best, and indeed a complete answer to those pretended reformers who talked of a pure representation. It would require more dexterity than was usually shown by the leaders of mobs to prove, that there was any necessity to alter the system of parliament, in order to get that which virtually and substantially was already in existence.

He now came to the main object of the noble lord's speech, the formation of a committee of financial inquiry. The noble lord had, it seemed, thought proper to abandon his favourite scheme of a ballot: he had admitted, that a sudden change had taken place in his opinion on this point; and yet, most inconsistently, he was very angry that any other person should find fault with what now appeared untenable even to himself. He had, very unnecessarily, rated an hon. and learned friend of his for reviving what he was pleased to call an old joke of Mr. Sheridan's. To be sure, his hon. and learned friend knew quite as well as the noble lord that it was an old joke, but it was also a very good joke, and never could have been applied more fairly than on an occasion where the noble lord had made such a parade of an impartial method of choosing a committee. At such a time, it was reasonable to show that this pretended liberty of choice would exactly tally with the wishes of the minister, and that the list chosen would be (name by name) the list desired to be chosen by the noble lord. The noble lord affected an extreme delicacy for the feelings of the opposition side of the House: the noble lord was not quite candid in this show of regard. The fact was, that the noble lord had selected his committee, not from any wish to accommodate the views of the opposition, but from delicacy to the feelings of certain members of his own side of the Mouse. There was, indeed, a considerable number of members in that house belonging to that class of persons who "do good by stealth, and blush to find it fame." This respectable body of representatives, though for the best of reasons doubtless they lent their aid to ministers, yet were not without their feelings: they had a sort of sense of decency, and it required sometimes a good deal of management to keep them in good humour. Their scruples made them sometimes a little restive, and unless certain forms of decorum were preserved to satisfy their consciences a little, they were apt to say to a minister—"If you don't do so and so, we shan't vote for you." It was from delicacy to the sensibility of these gentlemen, that the noble lord had found it necessary to make a show of candour in his mode of choosing the committee; though with what reluctance he acted might be judged from the long funeral oration which he had pronounced on his poor departed friend the ballot. The committee was now to be appointed which was to remove all grievances, and it was said by the noble lord that it was the game which had been proposed by his noble friend (lord G. Cavendish) last session. This was not the case. That was a committee confined in its object to the savings practicable on offices. The present committee was to include the consideration of income as well as of expenditure, and of ell objects of retrenchment and reform.

He would not, however, have the noble lord suppose that he was finding fault with his committee altogether; in many respects it was what he himself had often solicited in vain; it was a measure absolutely called for by the exigencies of the times, and indispensably requisite for the public service. It was not only essential for the remedy of grievances, but without it he believed that the national business could not go on. But let not the noble lord deceive himself: he was in extreme error if he thought that he would satisfy the country by introducing all sorts of subjects into his proposed inquiry. Whatever might be the case in the house, people out of doors would not content themselves with this show of a remedy. They must have something real and practical, and would not be mocked by a committee which was to investigate every thing, and do nothing. It would not do to make this committee a repository for all the evils afloat—to convert it into what had been called a drag-net for all grievances; for then it was pretty certain it would never lift its head above water again. The consequences of such a proceeding were sufficiently evident. Such a committee, having so much to accomplish, might sit for years; and, what was worse, would be a cloak for precluding all possibility of discussing in the House the subjects of most vital interest to the nation. Instead of being a benefit, it would be a positive evil; for the House would be shut out from exercising its useful functions, while its committee would be laboriously employed to no good object, and without end. Of how trifling use such committees were must be obvious to any gentleman who considered former instances of the same kind. He recollected one committee which had been appointed in 1797, of which the Speaker was chairman. That committee was appointed on the 10th of March. Its first report, on income, was produced on the 31st of March; the second at the end of April; the last on the 4th of May. No proceeding—no result of its labours on the public expenditure transpired until the 19th of the following July, when it at last produced a report on the only subject which could be useful to the nation, namely, the nature and quantity of the reduction possible in the public expenditure. Let the House take warning from this precedent; let them watch narrowly and with jealousy the measures of his majesty's ministers, whose drift, as it seemed to him, was merely to probe and search but not to heal the wound; to make long imposing speeches to answer their own partial purposes, instead of doing what it was their duty to do—that is, enabling the House, after free and ample discussion, to take such measures as might conduce to the permanent benefit of the country. He should desire to know what the nature and extent of the labours performed by ministers, in the way of economy, had really been during the last nine or ten months, by which the House might judge of the sincerity of their inclinations: but on this subject they were hitherto all in the dark. Let them cast their eyes back to the last session. When a committee of inquiry was then proposed, it was said, that it was not at all necessary for the House of Commons to take up the subject, for his Majesty's ministers meant to do all that could be required. It was in last May when the commission was appointed, which was to inquire into all reducible offices. Where was the report of these commissioners? Why had it not, before this, been laid before the House? It was not enough for the House to know the gross amount of the reductions, but in what departments they had taken place, and what remained to be done. There was no one unconnected with office who had the slightest idea what those reductions were. What he wanted, with respect to a proper and efficient committee, was different from what the noble lord seemed to wish. There was business and labour enough on this subject, not merely for one, but for three or four committees. The House must set their shoulders to the task of examination, and go to work in a determined manner. A separate committee might be necessary to examine the accounts and state of the affairs of the army, and the commissariat, and other branches connected with it, and to probe them to the bottom. Another committee might be requisite to inquire into the affairs and expenditure of the colonies. Another would be also desirable and requisite to inquire respecting the civil offices, and report on the practicable reductions in them; which last object he had particularly in view. He considered that there was nothing efficacious to be granted; but that it seemed intended to draw a curtain to prevent the public from a full view of the public expenditure. The numerous and important subjects which might come before this proposed committee, if it devoted its labours to them, might prevent them from, giving a sufficient report till a period of the session when it was not likely that there would be a full attendance; and then they would probably present voluminous reports which would be wholly unavailing.

Another point he wished to advert to was as to the principle of the nomination of the committee. The noble lord had indeed decried all party feelings and views on this subject: and he (Mr. T.) agreed with him therein, and hoped that all the members in the House would act in common. He could not see that the examination should be called a party object, unless it were in the vulgar way of alluding to the loss of offices: but if gentlemen opposite would not act quite fairly, they could not expect the other side of the House to put confidence in them. The noble lord said, that the committee should comprise gentlemen of all descriptions, those on all sides most conversant with public topics; but then he had treated the neutrals a little too ruffly, as if they were good for nothing. Now, if they were good for any thing, it must be for the sort of committee proposed. He was ready to agree with what he had heard of party men being useful to the country; and he had himself always been a party man, of whatever party he might have been. It was useful that there should be party men acting on honest principles, and clinging together for great objects: no great good could be done to the country without it. As to what were termed the neutrals, there had been one neutrality, which was an armed neutrality, but joined one of the belligerents at suitable time, and were all directly promoted, and placed upon the staff. The noble lord knew very well that the neutrals went out to fight with double colours in their hold. He had also contended, that a great advantage was to be derived from having gentlemen in office placed upon the committee: and as a proof of his sincerity had nominated six of those gentlemen to sit in the committee. Now he (Mr. T.) would agree, that in such a committee as that recently appointed to sit up stairs, there might be advantage in having ministerial persons in it, who could give to the committee various details which they only could know. He had no objection upon a new committee of finance that the chancellor of the exchequer and others should sit in it; they would be able to make many statements and explanations, and therefore might be useful to the labours of the committee. They could not, with all their ingenuity, make much alteration in figures, and therefore so far he would trust them. But the matter was widely different when it turned on the question of abolishing offices; and when the holders perhaps of these offices desired to be abolished were themselves to sit and vote in the committee. Could the noble lord be really in earnest in his-professed desire for the reduction or regulation of public offices, when he proposed to appoint so many public officers upon this committee, or were the public likely to believe that such an earnestness existed? What was the inference to be drawn, for instance, from the nomination of the right hon. gentleman over the way for such a committee, when one of the objects to be referred to that committee was, whether the office which that right hon. gentleman held, namely, that of joint paymaster of the forces, ought not to be abolished, compliance with the recommendation of a former committee? As to the observation of the noble lord, that it was necessary to have counsel from the public offices, in order to enlighten the committee, he has no objection to such counsel, but he rather thought, that instead of being upon, they should appear before the committee—instead of forming part of the judicial bench, they should be introduced as mere pleaders. He had as much respect for official men, as any one could reasonably desire him to entertain. He had great respect and esteem for many of them, but where a jury was to be impannelled upon a case materially affecting their interest, he could not think them exactly fit persons to form a part of that jury. He should rather indeed wish to meet those gentlemen in any other society than that of the proposed jury. The noble lord appeared to think that in the decisions of a committee no influence would be occasioned by six gentlemen in office going over to the right or left. Was this exactly probable? The noble lord had made some allusions, on the subject of influence, to the committee appointed in 1807, on the motion of lord Henry Petty, when he was chancellor of the exchequer, which required a few observations. The fact on that occasion was, that lord Henry Petty had proposed one more member than was the usual practice in regard to such committees. There was only one minister in that committee, and that was the then chancellor of the exchequer, whose name in the customary manner, as the mover, was first put to the vote. There were 22 members on that committee, instead of the usual practice of 21. Mr. Biddulph, he believed, moved for an additional member to the committee (a gentleman who then represented Lincoln) and the answer to that motion was, that there was already one more member on it than usual, and therefore that the proposition was not necessary. It was not correct that the nomination of that committee had been taken wholly out of the hands of Mr. Biddulph. It, therefore, could form no precedent for that at present under consideration, and into which it was proposed to introduce so many officers of the Crown. But upon such a proposition he should feel it his duty to take the sense of the House; for were such public officers appointed, there could be no great difficulty in deciding how they were likely to act in the event of any division in the committee, whether they would take the side of the ministers of the Crown or against them. But he objected not alone to the proposed construction of the committee—he thought that too many objects were to be referred to its consideration, according to the noble lord's motion. In his view a second committee should be appointed, to which should belong exclusively the investigation of the question, whether any and what reduction or regulation should take place in the several public offices, and this committee, should, for obvious reasons, consist of men, intelligent no doubt in public business, but for obvious reasons, totally unconnected with office. Such a committee should indeed consist of those who might be considered as independent men. Perhaps this observation would not be deemed strictly parliamentary, as all members of that House were regarded as independent. But he meant those, for instance, one of whom was generally listened to with peculiar attention upon questions of economy: and who was always at hand on such matters.

By the appointment of committees, dividing the examinations, the House might have a tolerable certainty of getting the reports during the session; but if not, they could never satisfy the minds of the public, who would only see that they had appointed a committee of 21 with no great probability of doing any thing effectual and who would not out of doors express themselves with as much courtesy as he felt obliged to show within. If nobody else did, which he hoped some one would, he should feel it his duty to propose a second instruction for the naming of a committee, by a good and fair selection, which ought to be met by ministers honestly, fairly, and above board. He must, in honesty, tell the House, that one great object with him, respecting the committee, was, the reduction of the influence of the Crown. Was it intended, that the state of the civil list was to be subjected to the examination of the committee, with a power to send for persons, papers, and records; or was it not? The fourth class of the civil list, he understood, to be the only class in which the Prince Regent had a direct personal interest. Now he wished to examine the third class, and to sift and probe into the expediency of all the appointments and charges which the noble lord had thought proper to make in his diplomatic arrangements. He wished to know whether, under all the circumstances, the House would entertain the idea that they were not to look into the establishments; the expenditure of the double court of Windsor and Carlton-house, with all the extra grooms and lords of the bed-chamber. For his own part, in wishing for examination, he did not desire to take away any thing from the real splendour and dignity of the Crown; but if none of these offices were abolished, there would arise a question as to the propriety of such officers holding their seats in that House. Did the House recollect the number of holders of offices now sitting there? There were not less than 60 of these gentlemen, all of whom were liable to be dismissed at pleasure. If they deducted their number from some of the ministerial majorities, the result would appear, that the fair and free sense of the House was against the measures of ministers. He did not mean to say that gentlemen holding offices acted unjustly, and unconscientiously in their votes; they acted with their party, and he threw no blame upon them for that. But yet, it must in fairness be observed, that they had an additional stimulus. He remembered what the late Mr. Fox had said on this subject: he had observed, that a gentleman's holding an office during pleasure I might not be a reason for his vote; but that it was a symptom of the vote he might be expected to give. The only real road to the certainty of economy was by taking away this kind of influence; much economy, he was convinced, might then be effected. Many members, too, were certainly connected by the ties of relationship to those who were in power. If any impartial committee made a report on the subject of the influence of the Crown, it would appear but a mockery to expect economical reductions, until that influence was itself reduced. This, he repeated, was the only sure way of arriving at economy. He hoped, therefore, that the noble lord would agree to a practical mode. Opportunities would, of course, arise for objections to be made to any particular names proposed: but let the House desire the noble lord to leave out the names of the holders of public offices, and to act with straight forward, down-right honesty. Let them show the country, that they would not merely do what was prescribed to them. It was extraordinary, that the proposed committee was, according to the noble lord's motion, to direct its inquiry to precisely the same object which the motion of last session had in view, and which was negatived through the opposition of his majesty's ministers. This, however, he denied: the committee for which his noble friend moved last session, was only to inquire into the question, whether any, and what offices could be abolished or reduced? But the committee now proposed had a different object, as must be evident, notwithstanding the apparent dissent of the right hon. gentleman opposite, who seemed taking notes with a view to answer his observations. But that right hon. gentleman would find it difficult to deny the difference which he had alleged. The main point, however, to which he wished to direct the attention of the House, was this, that the proposed committee was not calculated to satisfy the country, or to fulfil the duty which that House was called upon to perform under existing circumstances.

The Chancellor of the Exchequer

said, that the whole force of the argument of the right hon. gentleman who spoke last, was turned to convince the House, that instead of appointing one committee for the purposes which had been already stated, there ought to be different committees for the separate investigation of every branch of the public services, including one for the investigation of the colonial establishments. According to ^* this plan, there would be four committees instead of one, and from three of these the right hon. gentlemen would have all men in office excluded. On this he was of a totally different opinion. In examining the details of the colonial service, the House ought, as much as in the examination of any thing relating to the finances, to call for the assistance of those, who being conversant with all that related to the subject, must be the best able to supply that information, without which they could form no correct judgment, and come to no proper decision. But as on this point, the other part of the motion of his noble friend, which related to the instructions to the committee, would soon come before the House, and as there would then be a better opportunity for discussing it, he would say no more at present. He would rather now say a very few words with reference to the financial statements of the right hon. gentleman, and endeavour to set him right in one or two instances. First, as to the gracious communication from his royal highness the Prince Regent, which had that night been delivered to the House through his noble friend, the right hon. gentleman had made some observations which, in terms not ambiguous, imputed blame to his majesty's ministers for their tardiness in not sooner advising this measure, and he seemed to go so far as to say, that it was now so late that little good was to be expected from it. But surely the right hon. gentleman would allow, that it could not have been made at an earlier period of the session. And if it were still said, that it might have been done even before this session, he would beg the House to consider the situation in which his Royal Highness had been placed with respect to his income, and when that was considered he would ask how much earlier than the present time was his Royal Highness enabled to ascertain or compute what reduction he could make in his expenditure as compared with his revenue. Previous to the arrangement made during the last year, the civil list had been unable to support itself without the assistance of additional grants from the House; therefore, any attempt to give up any part of it would have been a mere mockery, as it would be no more than taking a sum which the House would have been afterwards obliged to make up. But when, during the last session, parliament bad liberally, and, as he thought, wisely, put the civil list on a different footing, and had made an arrangement, which, without any thing like extravagance, was sufficient for the purposes of the state, it had done that which enabled his Royal Highness, in the present times of difficulty, to take the lead in measures of economy and retrenchment in his own expenditure, and of liberality towards the more distressed part of his subjects. Upon what personally concerned the members of his majesty's government, he was only anxious that the sacrifice which they meant to make might not be construed as in any way admitting such a principle as that of taxation upon office. What they had done was merely voluntary. And he had no doubt that the other gentlemen who held offices under the Crown would follow the example which was set them from the highest quarter, and would make sacrifices which the illustrious person at the head of the government had felt it his duty to make.—As to what had fallen from the right hon. gentleman on the subject of the sinking fund, it was with great pleasure that he heard from him and the other gentlemen on that side of the House, the sentiments which had been expressed as to the steady and inviolable faith which ought to be kept with the public creditor. But although the right hon. gentleman was very wrong in his details with respect to the sinking fund, it was much more important to notice an error which that right hon. gentleman had made in summing up his account of the income and expenditure. In making up his account of the income, the right hon. gentleman stated only that of the British consolidated fund, but in the charge he included the whole of the expense of a great part of that of Ireland, to the amount of 3,000,000l. So that the right hon. gentleman was wrong in no less a sum than this 3,000,000l. To correct the erroneous impression which might be given by the view of the state of our finances, which had been taken by the right hon. gentleman, he was desirous of offering a few observations to the House; 1st, on the balance between our income and expenditure; 2dly, as to the debt which had been contracted and paid off; and 3dly, as to the view which the right hon. gentleman had taken of the situation of our resources and of the state of our finances during the last year, as compared with that which was to be expected from the present. First, then, as to the balance between our income and expenditure, it was very satisfactory to think, that during the last year, notwithstanding the heavy disadvantages under which the finances of the country laboured, the navy debt was reduced to the extent of 1,000,000l., while that of the exchequer bills was increased by exactly the same amount. In the consolidated fund (here had certainly been a considerable deficiency. For the four quarters ending 5th January, 1817, the total amount of the deficiency in the consolidated fund was about 970,000l., or perhaps it might be more accurately stated at 1,000,000l. The actual deficiency was 400,000l., to which was to be added the arrear of the property tax unappropriated, which made it up to the sum which he stated. During the year there had been a deficiency in most of the branches of the public revenue, which, on the whole, might he fairly calculated at a diminution of 10 per cent, on the whole revenue. In the customs it was as much as 20 per cent., but in the other branches it was much less, making it on the whole what he had stated it to be. He would ask whether, considering all the circumstances of the last year, this deficiency was to be wondered at, when it was considered that, in former years, there had been a deficiency of 10 per cent, occasioned merely by a bad harvest? Any predictions as to the future prospects of our income were to be made with caution. The committee about to be appointed would have an opportunity of inquiring into the correctness of the data on which he founded his hope, that it would considerably increase. The right lion, gentleman having stated a contrary opinion, induced him to say this, and he said it with confidence, though it was an opinion which experience must prove or overturn. With respect to the third branch, it must be a great satisfaction to the House to know, that notwithstanding the diminution of the income, which had rendered it necessary to anticipate, the taxes by issuing exchequer bills to a very considerable amount, yet a progress had been made last year in the diminution of the public debt, a much greater than, under all the circumstances of the case, could have been expected, and certainly greater than he had felt himself last summer warranted in holding out to the House. The diminution of the debt which had been effected, was larger than had been made in any former year. The amount of the public debt paid off in this country was nineteen millions of stock, and in Ireland one million, making together 20,000,000 of stock, or about 13,000,000 of money. Under these circumstances it might naturally be supposed that the unfunded debt must have been greatly augmented, but he was happy to say that such was not the case. On the 5th January, 1816, the amount of outstanding exchequer bills was forty-one millions and a half, and on the 5th January, 1817, thirty-eight millions and a half, besides six millions which the bank held in consequence of an advance which it had made to government; there was, therefore, an increase of about three millions in the unfunded debt, but there was at the same time a diminution of two millions of navy debt, and of 500,000l. of army bills. So that, in fact, there was no actual increase of the unfunded debt in this country. In Ireland the unfunded debt had been increased by the issue of three millions of exchequer bills, so that deducting the increase of the unfunded debt in Ireland from the decrease of the funded debt in England, it would appear that the actual diminution of the total debt of the United Kingdom was about ten millions, not of stock, but of money, in the course of the last year. This statement would afford solid grounds of hope for the future, and he had thought it necessary to say thus much, in order to take off any unfavourable impression made by the speech of the right hon. gentleman; but he would not occupy more of the time of the House at present, as many opportunities would occur of going more into detail, and of laying before the House full explanations on the subject.

Mr. Grenfell

was certainly convinced that it was highly desirable to keep up the sinking fund, under the meaning of its being a fund to provide for the extinction of public debt; but the hopes of the noble lord appeared to be confined only to making income square with expenditure. The right hon. gentleman (Mr. Tierney) had stated his opinion, that it would fall short. He (Mr. G.) wanted to know what could be applied this year to extinguish debt, excepting by borrowing money.

The Chancellor of the Exchequer

was ready to mention his opinion as to the probability of our being enabled, in the present year, to pay off any part of the debt, or as to the falling off of the revenue. His hopes were, that a considerable sum would be paid off in the course of this year, though not so much as in the last.

Mr. Saville

expressed the fullest confi- dence in the views of his majesty's ministers, but said, that he should rather wish to have the proposed committee nominated like an ordinary election committee, namely, by putting the names of all the members present into glasses, from which each member should draw twenty-one names, or if that plan were objected, that the names of all the county members only should be put into the glasses.

Mr. B. Shaw

asked, whether it was to be understood that the produce of the sinking fund would be applied bonâ fide to the reduction of the public debt, or to the payment of the current expenses of the year?

The Chancellor of the Exchequer

replied, that the produce of the sinking fund would be applied solely to the purpose for: which it was destined, conformably to the several acts of parliament with respect to that fund.

Mr. Brand

said, the House were then engaged in a discussion which excited more anxiety and a deeper feeling in the mind of the public than had been done by any subject brought before their consideration for many years. The question this day was no other than this—whether his majesty's ministers, who had so long practised the utmost extravagance, contrary to the professions made by them, were at last to produce some measure of economy and retrenchment, which should answer the expectations of the country, and restore to them that confidence which they had forfeited? There was no man in the House who regretted more than himself the spirit of disaffection and turbulence which prevailed out of doors; but he was convinced that by nothing would that spirit of disaffection and turbulence be so much excited as by the measure of the noble lord if persevered in. With respect to the first part of the motion he had nothing at present to observe. It was to the second part of the noble lord's motion to which he wished more particularly to confine himself. Certainly, when they were about to inquire into what reductions ought to take place in the public expenditure, at a conjuncture such as the present, placemen and persons holding sinecure offices ought not to be on the committee. Certainly, the confidence of the country could be regained by no measure so effectually as by a motion for the appointment of a committee; but it must be a very different measure from that of the noble lord which would produce such an effect. The people of England did not place confidence in the gentlemen on the opposite bench when they professed economy; they remembered too well that they had made the same professions last year, and yet that they had immediately after such professions created useless offices, and increased the salaries of many officers. It was at this very moment proposed to continue an office vacant by the death of lord Buckinghamshire, that of clerk of the pleas in Ireland at 4,000l. a year, which, in a report of a finance committee of the House, was declared to be one which ought not to be continued. When the vice-treasurer-ship of Ireland was created, that measure had been reprobated as one of the most barefaced jobs which had ever come before the House. This office of clerk of the pleas was continued with the very same views which had given rise to the vice-treasurership of Ireland, and would, in all probability, be bestowed on the same individual for whom the other office had been created. He would again warn the gentlemen opposite, that if they persevered in this measure, if they did not yield to the feelings of the people, and allow a fair inquiry to be instituted as to what retrenchments might be effected, what useless places abolished, what pensions enjoyed by undeserving individuals withdrawn, they would never gain the confidence of the people, nor be able to execute with effect the functions placed by the constitution in their hands. He should move as an Amendment, to leave out all the latter part of the motion of the noble lord, and in lieu thereof, in the first place, move, "That the select committee to be appointed, should inquire into what reductions since the year 1798 had taken place in the salaries and emoluments of the different persons holding public offices, and to consider what farther measures might be instituted for farther reducing the expenditure of the country."

The Speaker

said, that it would be necessary for the hon. gentleman, in the first, place, to move by way of amendment, that the second part of the motion of the noble lord should be omitted, and if that was agreed to, then the hon. gentleman might move that his amendment be substituted.

Mr. Brand

accordingly moved to leave out the words, "and also to consider what further measures may be adopted for the relief of the country from any part of the said expenditure, without detriment to the public interest."

Lord Castlereagh

wished to call the attention of the House to the nature of the amendment now proposed by the hon. member. By removing the last clause of the motion, it would then be merely a motion for a committee to inquire into the state of the income and expenditure of the country, and that part of it (certainly the most important), which instructed the committee to inquire into what reductions might be made, would be entirely removed. It appeared to him, that nothing could be more absurd than for the House to agree to such an amendment.

Mr. Brougham

hoped the suggestion of the hon. gentleman under the gallery (Mr. Saville), coming from the quarter it did, would have due weight with the noble lord. If the noble lord was sincere in his professions of economy, and if he wished that this inquiry should be carried on in a work-manlike manner, the only one object which he ought to promote, was the appointment of such a committee as was likely to institute the most rigorous investigation. But the truth was, that this measure had been forced on the noble lord—one set of circumstances had turned up and another gone down; in plain English, he had consented to the present inquiry, because he could not resist it any longer. But it would be said, perhaps, what did they ask? In answer to this, he would say, here was a measure proposed with the view of investigation, which could not possibly lead to a sincere investigation—a measure, which under the mask of inquiry, would smother all inquiry—which would substitute for that House a committee to flounder about in the mazes of the public accounts, and to do what an accountant would be more likely to do successfully, namely, to find out what was the income and the expenditure of the country, and to strike a balance. And if he were to venture on another prediction, from the names proposed by the noble lord, he would, in common with his friends on the bench below, hazard a prophecy, which would not fail to be fulfilled any more than his last had been, that the very first proposition made in the committee by the noble lord, would be opposed by his right hon. friend, and put to the vote, and that that vote somehow or other would turn out to be favourable to the noble lord. He would hazard another prophecy—that the committee would then begin their labours with a vast and voluminous mass of accounts; and what would be the consequence? Why this, that for three months of the session the House would hear nothing whatever of their labours, and then they would lay before the House a balance which an accountant could do just as well. But what was wanted was not such an inquiry as this, but an inquiry into the means of reducing the expenditure of the country—and that this inquiry into the means of reducing the expenditure should be kept separate from all other inquiries. To that subject the attention of the country was directed, and it would continue to be fixed on it till the House should enter on an inquiry fairly calculated to answer the expectations of the country. But how, he would ask, could the expectations of the country be answered by an appointment like that proposed by the noble lord, which would have the effect of smothering every thing like investigation? A separate investigation by a committee confined to one specific object, was the point to which all eyes were turned,—an investigation how far useless places could be abolished—how far sinecures could be destroyed—how far the patronage of the crown, in and out of parliament, could be abridged. At a time like the present, when the last shilling was wrung from a suffering people, it became of importance that no burthens, however small, should be borne by them, but such as were absolutely necessary. At such a moment every tax was heavily felt by the people, and even a tax to the amount of only 3 or 400,000l. was of the utmost importance. The tax might be said to begin only with this, but it ended with placing at the disposal of ministers a patronage which enabled a bad government to carry on the affairs of the country in times when even a good government would find it difficult to support itself. A great deal had been said by the noble lord against the manner in which the committee of 1807 had been appointed; but he would say that a more unfounded clamour never had been raised than the one in question. His noble friend now no longer in that House (the marquis of Lansdown), had acceded to the committee the moment it was proposed by Mr. Biddulph, and Mr. Biddulph feeling satisfied that the subject was about to be taken up by abler hands, waved the further prosecution of the measure proposed by him. The charge now brought against the noble marquis was, that in striking the committee, he had not chosen any of the gentlemen on the opposite side of the House—that he did not seek for destroyers of sinecures, and abolishers of useless offices among those gentlemen who then happened to sit on the side where he now sat. But had his noble friend done so, he would have frustrated the very object which he had in view, the abolition of useless expenditure, and Mr. Biddulph would never in such a case have consented to withdraw his motion. This would have been making these very gentlemen judges who were parties, for they were either holders of the offices and sinecures which it was proposed to abolish, or expectants, they expected that they would soon fill them, and they grudged every moment which his noble friend and those in office along with him held their places; and contrived at length by a base clamour to trip up their heels. His noble friend had, therefore, taken the appointment of the committee out of their hands, and appointed a fair committee; and if they wanted an eulogium of that committee, they, would find it in what speedily followed. When the noble lord opposite, and his friends came into office, nothing more was heard of that committee, but others were substituted because it was feared that that committee would do its duty, and propose to cut down all sinecures and useless places. He had a slight suspicion that matters would go on very differently in the present committee. The noble lord had proposed six gentlemen from his own side of the House, and then six gentlemen from the other side—and certainly nothing could, arithmetically speaking, be more exact, with reference to the two parties;—but then, if they were to look to the working of the committee, if he might take the liberty of borrowing an expression of the noble lord's, it would be found that the six individuals taken from his side of the House would be without any followers, whereas the other six from office would be found, somehow or other, to possess a great deal of influence among the nine neutral men as they had been called. Of the other nine members, he would not say that all would follow the six ministerial members, but this he would say, that they would not follow the other side; and that in all questions of reductions which should be opposed as trenching too much on the influence of the crown, the six opposition members would stand alone, or at most gain over one or two members from the neutral side. It had been said that men in office were necessary to be on the committee, for the sake of affording the necessary information; but when there was a power of sending for persons, papers and records, he could not see that they were required in the committee as members. Was it necessary that the parties interested should sit as judges in their own case—for the first question which ought to be put was, shall a gentleman sitting in the committee be allowed to occupy a useless place? If his own views were the same as those entertained by his friends below him—and he had no reason to think otherwise—he conceived they would not merely propose the abolition of useless places, but proceed to a very disagreeable task, although one which, in the present labouring state of the finances of the country was highly proper—for he considered propriety and safety as one and the same thing—that of reducing all the salaries of all the high offices of state. No man had ever opposed more strenuously than he himself had done, that groundless clamour which accused public men of receiving too great a proportion of the public money. It would be much nearer the truth to strike a balance, and say that some were paid at too high a rate, while others were paid but moderately. But former times were different from the present, and a different rule of conduct was called for. It was one thing to have a surplus, and an improving revenue, which was annually paying off millions of the public debt, and another to have a revenue deficient, and every day falling off more and more—for it was not merely as had been stated, the defective harvest which had caused this deficiency—there was a falling off in the quarter before it was known that the harvest could be bad—there was a falling off in the produce of the customs, the excise, and the assessed taxes, and the deficit was gradually increasing, and would continue to increase. This showed that something was rotten in the state, though he hoped it was not incurably rotten. The chancellor of the exchequer had said, the House ought not to be astonished at finding only such and such a deficit, when they recollected the circumstances of the country, and the extreme distress which prevailed. Why this was admitting the evil of which all complained, and deriving consolation from distress itself. Certainly there could be no doubt that it was because the trade and industry of the country had fallen off, that taxes and every thing else had fallen off in the same proportion, for this very same reason, they had every reason to suppose that next year affairs would be worse. This year they were told that there would be a surplus of 1,200,000l. adding the sinking fund to the revenue. But 12 or 13 hundred thousand pounds were this year derived from arrears which could not be received in future years, and consequently the over plus of this year would cease next year. The chancellor of the exchequer referred to the budget which he would have to bring forward this time twelve months, the disclosure of his plan with respect to the sinking fund. He did not mean to say that he had announced his intention to take the sinking fund, but somehow or other he would have to make up the deficit. Where was the twelve millions of deficit to come from? Pie must either raise the money by a loan, or by jobbing with the bank in exchequer bills, or by some such measures, a mode of raising money of all others the most ruinous and improvident. These were the usual resources of improvident spendthrifts. It signified nothing, in so far as the reduction of the debt was concerned, whether he took the sinking fund or kept it up; but if he kept it, it was merely borrowing with the one hand and paying with the other. We were now got to such an unprecedented state of financial embarrassment, that we could barely make the two ends meet this year, and we had the prospect of a constant and rapid diminution of revenue; and if they were to go on in this manner they would be able to make them meet in no manner whatever, and then they would not merely be under the necessity of taking the sinking fund, but also of having recourse to a measure, the necessity of which he trembled to contemplate—a violation of faith to the national creditors. There was only one other measure left for them, that of cutting down the establishments of the country.— They had either the prospect of not being able to pay the interest of the national debt, or they must cut down the establishments still more, and, under the present distressed circumstances of the country, diminish the salaries of the great officers of state. Knowing, therefore, that this diminution and reduction was one of the first objects of the inquiry, would they make themselves parties to the gross fraud and delusion now attempted to be practised on the country, by appointing those officers whose salaries ought to be reduced to be the judges of that reduction? In lord Lansdowne's committee, not one person in office was named but lord Lansdowne himself, and that by mistake—and his lordship had never attended. Let him only see a committee so framed on the present occasion, even though it should be taken from neutral ground. He cared not how it was composed—how few of party men, on whom the noble lord had bestowed such eulogies to-night were on it. But let them avoid the shame of putting those members on it who could not possibly be expected fairly and impartially to discharge their duty. It was not his intention to go into the statements of the noble lord respecting the military estimates. Various opportunities would occur for entering on the subject. This much, however, he would now say, that he considered the proposed reductions insufficient; and when this subject came again before them, he should state his sentiments to the House. However, he would take this early stage of requesting the House to remark, that the noble lord had conceded one point, namely, the amount of the permanent peace establishment; though it was no small puzzle to know what they meant by peace establishment; there was first one and then another, and even that was not the real, for when lie said permanent, the noble lord shook his head. All he could say on the subject was, that at the end of the American war the establishments were less than at present in the proportion of 6 to 13 millions; for after deducting the half pay, there was a balance of 7 millions in the present above that at the close of the American war. The rise of pay would not account for more than a million of this balance. The communication of the intended reduction on the part of the Prince Regent, as far as it went, was of a nature to give great and very general satisfaction. He trusted, that this example would have imitators among all those in the immediate neighbourhood of that illustrious personage. He trusted that reduction would descend still lower, and that the officers of state would go and do likewise; that they would give up somewhat to the difficulties of the times, and the unprecedented embarrassment of the finances. He understood that the noble lord had intimated a reduction of a tenth; but that was not the proportion which ought to be given up; he hoped the example of his Royal Highness would be followed to the very letter. It did not signify to talk now about keeping up dignity and splendour. Public men could not feel too sensibly the importance of retrenchment at the present moment. He was no enemy to the true splendour that ought to surround the throne. No man was more desirous than he was to support that monarchical establishment established in this country, which in his conscience he did most sincerely believe to be the only form of government consistent with civil liberty; but it was because he conceived that monarchy in danger that he recommended them to bear in mind, that the best safeguard of the monarchy was the planting its roots firm in the affections of the people; that instead of the flourish of useless ornaments and gaudy trappings in the present distressed state of the country, nothing was so becoming as for the highest classes to sympathize with the lowest; that nothing was so graceful as poverty in public men; that nothing was so honourable as men in high stations, with great opportunities of becoming wealthy, discharging their duties, and neglecting the means of amassing riches; and that the monarchy would be found the more firmly planted, by how much more the people saw a diminution of all useless splendour. At other times that splendour and expense might be allowable, nay, even advisable, which did not accord with the calls of the present crisis, a crisis which demanded the practice of the most rigid self denial in every branch of the public expenditure.

Mr. Canning

observed, that from the general tenor of the discussion, argued as it was in almost every point applicable to the immediate question, he had little expected that the House would have been overwhelmed by the line of argument pursued by the hon. and learned gentleman who last addressed it. He had not been so sanguine as to expect that the proposition of his noble friend would have obtained the general acceptation of every part of that House, but he must confess that his impression was, that the doubt would have been whether the establishments were not cut down lower than was consistent with the true interests of the country. He would, unchecked by the reception that the observation had met with, repeat advisedly, that the impression of that truth was so strong in the conviction of his majesty's government, that it was only overcome by the sense of the peculiar exigency, and by a desire to satisfy the awakened anxieties of the country, on the extent of national expenditure. It was the evidence of that conviction, he had a right to presume, which accounted for the altered tone of the gentlemen on the opposite benches. They had found it convenient to dismiss from the discussion of that night, all reference to the alarming dangers of a military establishment; dangers to be viewed in the double acceptation, as they were described, of an immense expense upon the finances of the country, and of extreme danger to the liberties of the people. God forbid that he should ever undervalue the danger of standing armies, swollen to an unnecessary magnitude, to the constitution; but no man had that night insinuated the least doubt but that the fallacious apprehensions so circulated on that point were entirely done away. Indeed the hon. and learned gentleman had founded his opposition on totally different grounds. He seemed dissatisfied with the amount of retrenchment in the proposition of his noble friend. Yet the right hon. gentleman on the same side of the House had admitted candidly and fairly, that the proposition of retrenchment was less by 600,000l. than he, with the most laudable scrutiny, had anticipated. Could the House doubt that there existed the sincerest disposition to meet the difficulties of the pressure by every practicable economy? Did not the estimates in every item evince the reality of that intention? Was there any thing in the proceedings of his majesty's government on this subject on which any hon. gentleman could lay his finger, and say "here is a proof of a disposition to continue extravagant expenditure?" If any thing could be adduced against their conduct, it was directly in an inverse ratio to what was alleged by their political opponents. So far from the liberties of the people being menaced, (and here he meant nothing invidious) it would be found, that the civil power was suffered to act, until it became absolutely necessary, in consequence of turbulence and insubordination, to call in the military to their aid. Coming to that part of the question, on which hung the difference of opinion, with respect to the vote of this night, he demanded of the gentlemen opposite, whether they were prepared to say (for the first time the principle was ever laid down), that that class of men, who, from all time, had sat in the House of Commons, and the expulsion of whom from the House would occasion a change in the constitution, were to be pointed out as utterly unfit for the performance of the functions they had long been accustomed to discharge in that House? What else could the objection mean, which said that such men were unfit for the service of the House in a parliamentary committee? Pursuant to advice from the throne, a committee was proposed to examine into the situation of the expenditure and income; to see how far the civil and military establishments could be diminished; and to endeavour to place the expenditure on a level with the receipts. The learned and hon. gentleman, however, contended that the object of this committee ought to be to diminish the influence of the Crown, and that, therefore, official men should be excluded from it. It was a matter of argument, whether the influence of the Crown had grown up within the walls of parliament. If tried even by the test of those who maintained that it had, it would be found, that the number of persons holding office in parliament was infinitely diminished, when compared with what he supposed the hon. and learned gentleman would call the best times of the constitution. When compared with the days of the whigs; with the time when the septennial bill was passed; when those saviours of liberty were in power; from that time, downwards, an evident diminution in the number of official men in parliament might easily be shown. Gentlemen opposite had therefore no right to assume that the object of the committee was to diminish the influence of the Crown, and to state that as a reason for excluding from it official men. If a committee were specifically formed to inquire whether the influence of the Crown, had not been increased, and ought not to be diminished, then, indeed, it might be right to reject the members of government; but he denied, that the committee now contemplated, had any such object in view. What was this committee to be appointed for? To consider what could be done in the way of reduction; although probably no very considerable relief could be expected from its labours. In observing on that part of his noble friend's speech, in which he stated, that he and his colleagues meant to give up a part of their income, the right hon. gentleman had observed, with great candour, that it was not the amount of the sacrifice he cared for, but the sentiment and feeling which was displayed. How was that to be reconciled with the dissatisfaction of the hon. and learned gentleman, at the scanty retrenchments of the officers of the state? This way of receiving such a proposition, was not very encouraging to any farther sacrifice, or to any fresh instance of self-denial. Never, till the hon. and learned gentleman had stated his sentiments, had reduction in the salary attached to office, been considered in any but in one of these two ways; 1st, as taking its share fairly with the other burthens of the country; or, 2dly, as manifesting sympathy and commiseration for the sufferings of the people. But the hon. and learned gentleman seemed to think, that considerable relief might be effected by the reductions he spoke of. If, however, he looked to the labours of former committees, and examined their opinion on the subject of reduction, he would not see any great reason for supposing, if his suggestion were complied with, that it would produce the effect he seemed to imagine. He did not mean to say, that every possible reduction ought not to be made. They ought to take all they could; "Res valet quantum valere potest:" but still, he was convinced, the effect would not be such as the hon. and learned gentleman expected. The only point they had to consider was, whether any reduction could be made in the public expenditure; and, in that view of the question, he contended, that official men, in a fair and reasonable proportion, were necessary to the correctness of such an inquiry. But, it was said, if official men sat on the committee, it would put an end to any inquiry that might now be set on foot, with respect to irregularities in their offices. But that was not the case. If gentlemen looked to the order-book, they would find, that notices of four motions of that description were given for four different days, with which the finance committee could not interfere. The present time was not advantageous or proper for going into a discussion on the duties of this committee; but, with respect to its formation, it did appear to him, that no ground was stated to show why the House should not repose the same confidence in it, that they had hitherto placed in committees of finance and expenditure; nor could he see in the names of that committee (and he could speak without reserve, his own not being in the number) any one that could excite the smallest suspicion of an improper bias.

Mr. Wilberforce

, after the best consideration of the subject, could not give an entire approbation to the appointment of the committee. It would be unfair not to acknowledge, that the sacrifices which the Prince Regent had offered to make presented an example worthy of imitation by the ministers of the Crown. The appointment of a committee to inquire into the reductions possible in the civil and military establishments was highly expedient; but he was much afraid that no report could be made to the House in sufficient time to be useful for present purposes. His mind was pretty fully made up on this point, when he heard the noble lord say that it might sit one year, or two years, or perhaps three years. If that were the case, what benefit could be expected to result from its labours? Could it be even expected to last out its full time? Was there not one idea intimately associated with such a committee—namely, that the dissolution of parliament would put an end to its labours and its existence? If only the length of time were considered, that alone was a great objection to it. On a former occasion, on which the Speaker sat with so much ability, no report was made till a considerable time after the formation of the committee. His right hon. friend had admitted that if the committee were appointed to effect a diminution of the influence of the Crown, it would be improper that any official men should be comprehended in it. Now, in his opinion, the principle applied equally to the present case. When it was made a direct question? Whether or not certain offices should exist, did it not clearly affect the influence of the Crown? With respect to the influence of the Crown, he contended, in opposition to the right hon. gentleman who spoke last, that it had increased very considerably of late years. Perhaps the immediate influence of the Crown in parliament might be less than formerly, but when he considered the great increase of our establishments, military, naval, and fiscal, together with our vast colonial possessions, it was impossible not to see that the influence of the Crown was exceedingly augmented. It in fact met every man every where. He believed however, that the re-action was greater than the action; § and that the very attempt to augment it, would tend to weaken its legitimate eftect. While he deprecated as much as any man those attempts which had been made to inflame the public mind, and excite a contempt for our excellent constitution (which, as the hon. and learned gentleman had said, was the only form of government that could secure the happiness and independence of a nation), he by no means granted that the way to reconcile the people to their sufferings, and to quiet their minds, was by refusing to make such diminutions in every department as could be effected without injury to the public service. It was of extreme importance with regard to the estimation in which parliament was to be held by the people, that it should act in a way to secure their good opinion and confidence. Their tempers might be a little soured by their sufferings; and they might, under the influence of such feelings, look with jealousy on a committee so appointed, as not to hold out any hope of substantial relief. So great was the influence of the Crown, that it would be very difficult for any members of the committee to maintain opinions different from the wishes of the government; and therefore, while he acceded to the first proposition, for the appointment of a committee generally, he heartily wished that in the subsequent proceeding some mode might be adopted better calculated to produce unanimity than the nomination of the noble lord; and that all parties would join in trying to make the proposed committee effective. He did not expect that any thing would satisfy the really disaffected: but he should be sorry, that those who loved the constitution, although distress might have soured their temper a little, should have an opportunity of saying, that such a committee had been formed as could produce no useful effect.

Mr. Vesey Fitzgerald

observed, that an hon. member adverting to a report on the table, had stated, as a proof that economy was not attended to, that a sinecure had been preserved for him, because he had refused another office, the salary of which had been reduced.

Mr. Brand

said, he had alluded to a statement in the public prints, which sat forth, that the right hon. gentleman was to be remunerated by a place, the salary of which was equal to that originally intended for the vice-treasurership, which latter situation had been given to another person.

Mr. V. Fitzgerald

said, that, up to the present period, he had not, directly or indirectly, reason to suppose, from any person connected with his majesty's government, that the office was intended for him. On whatever principle he had thought proper to retire from the office he held under the Irish government, those who best knew him would say, that he had no right to be ashamed of his conduct on that occasion.

Sir T. Acland

thought, that the object of the committee could not be attained, unless official men, capable of entering into the details of expenditure, were attached to it; neither did he believe it would answer the end proposed, unless some of those who were in the habits of opposing ministers, and who were accustomed to investigate the expenses of the state, were also engaged in the examination. He was of opinion, that no imputations should be thrown out against an overture, fairly made, as this appeared to be. Therefore, he should give his vote for the proposition as originally made; and he would follow that up by a suggestion for reducing the official men on the committee to such a number as had heretofore been usual. At present he conceived, a greater proportion of official influence was sought to be attached to the committee, than was customary or proper.

Lord Lascelles

rose amidst loud calls for the question. He said it was not his intention to detain the House for more than two minutes, but on the present occasion he could not give a silent vote. He, for one, derived great satisfaction from the statements which had that night been made on the part of ministers, and he was of opinion that when they went forth to the people, they would diffuse very general satisfaction all over the country. He knew that in some cases it had been said "concession was the parent of demand," but he doubted not the House would know how to refuse with proper firmness what it would not become them to grant. Doing this, however, it would be their duty to take into consideration the burthens of the people, and to lighten them as much as they could with safety. Concessions like those which had been that night announced; would be very gratifying to the country, and he thought it behoved every one who had it in his power, to follow the example which had been set. For himself, he believed ministers to be sincere in their professions, and was convinced the plans sug- gested for the relief of the public were meant to be carried into effect. On the question, as to the formation of the committee, he must say he thought it would give greater satisfaction to the country, if it were made to include fewer names of men in office. He had no suspicion of the proposed members of the committee, but suspicion would be excited out of doors, which might be done away if the hint, he had just thrown out were acted upon. If so many official men were named to be of the committee, suspicion would be excited of the motives both of those who appointed it, and of those who accepted seats in it. He believed injustice would be done to both, by those who entertained such feelings, as he was confident any complaint of unfairness in the prosecution of the intended inquiry, would meet with a very-different reception in that House from what some persons might be taught to expect. But assured as he was of this, with the view he took of the subject, he could not vote in favour of the proposition now before them, but with this qualification, that whenever a member of the committee should come forward, and state that he, in the execution of his duty, had met with any attempt to throw obstruction, improperly in his way, or whenever a statement should be made that went to throw doubt on the conduct of ministers with respect to the committee, he would support any motion that might be made to correct the evil, or to give the committee further powers. It was with a determination to act up to this resolution that he should give his vote that night, and he thought it was open for every member on the present occasion to take the same line of conduct. The distress of the country was certainly great, but he thought they had reason to hope they had seen the worst. He trusted that our export trade would revive, and living as he did in a county where manufactures were carried on to a great extent, he had some means of knowing what our situation was in this respect. One of the great causes of the stagnation which had been experienced was the circumstance of the foreign markets having been overstocked. This, he ventured to give it as his opinion, would not long continue to act against us; and indeed he believed things were already somewhat better than they had been. Commerce might speedily revive and flourish as heretofore; at present they had only to hope that this would be the case. He repeated, it was his determination to give his vote for the committee as at present composed; but he wished it to be understood, that if any complaint respecting the course of its proceedings, though of the most trifling nature, should be brought before the House, he should be disposed to give a motion founded on it, his best support.

Mr. Ponsonby

said, that with the greatest personal respect for the hon. baronet, and the noble lord who had just spoken, he could not help stating that he did not understand their arguments; for they both condemned the formation of the committee, and yet declared their intention of voting for it. The question for the consideration of the House was, how they could best attain the object proposed? which was stated, on all sides, to be a matter of great anxiety both within and without the walls of parliament. The noble lord proposed a single committee to examine into the income and expenditure of the country; and the hon. member from Hertford suggested the propriety of appointing two committees, one to investigate the expenditure, and the other to examine the income. The point for decision then was, whether they should have two committees or one? The hon. baronet and the noble lord thought that the assistance of official men was necessary on the committee; and if the labours of the committee were confined, in the first instance, to the consideration of the national income, he should very much agree with them. But, with respect to a committee for the investigation of expenditure, the most improper members were those holding places under government. In the present state of distress and discontent, expedition in their proceedings was the surest way by which they could convince the people that they were intent on diminishing their burthens. He would, then, ask, which was more likely to arrive sooner at the termination of the projected inquiry, one or two committees? They all knew the attempts that were made to traduce public men, and to malign our most venerable institutions. Why, then, were not means taken to show the people that these were base calumnies, and to prove to them, that the legislator meant to lose no time, and to leave no effort untried, in order to reduce their burthens as much as possible? He was persuaded that the fate of the country was in the hands of that House; and to render it capable of producing the salvation of the country, it was necessary, it was indispensable, that they should manifest a determination to alleviate the burthens of the people. The noble lord had that night stated what gave him very great pleasure. He had acquainted them with the disposition of the illustrious personage at the head of the state to contract his expenses, which would certainly produce great public benefit. Such a communication ought to have come sooner. But he would rather thank ministers for what they had now done, than reproach them for what they had formerly neglected to effect. The noble lord stated, that persons holding offices were willing to give up a part of their emoluments. He approved of this determination—they owed it to the country—but he thought the sacrifice ought to go farther than the noble lord had represented. There was no person receiving considerable emoluments who ought not to make a great sacrifice—and he spoke with confidence on this point, because he was an interested person. The reduction, proposed appeared to him not to be sufficient; but he desired from no man a sacrifice he would not make himself. There was no man whose private means could less afford extensive sacrifices, but still he would make them with pleasure. It would be vain for him to say that any sacrifice he could offer would greatly benefit the country; but, if what he would cheerfully do was followed up, in the same spirit, by others, it would tend to alleviate the public burthens. It would, besides, teach this great lesson to the people, that those who derived emoluments under the Crown, were not that set of robbers and plunderers which malignant men had stated them to be. It would show them, on the contrary, that when the public exigency required it, they would cheerfully step forward to relieve their distresses. The noble lord said, that the income-tax was a fair criterion to go by, and that a reduction of 10 per cent, was sufficient. He (Mr. Ponsonby) thought the value of money a better criterion— and, he believed, 90l. would do more now, than 100l. a year or two ago. Therefore, he should propose, that the salaries to be paid in future should be regulated by the relative value of money, four years since and now. He begged to be understood, in saying this, that he was aware of many situations held by persons under government, the emoluments of which were so small, that it would be cruel to take any thing from them. His idea was, to make such a rate of reduction on the salaries of persons getting beyond a certain sum, as would prove to all classes that the House of Commons did not tax the people for their own benefit, but were ready to sacrifice their comforts for the general good of society.

Mr. Gooch

professed himself as strong an advocate for economy, and as fully convinced as the hon. gentleman opposite, that much must be done, and be done speedily: he had expressed himself to that effect in the course of the last session, but the statement which had now been made by the noble lord was completely satisfactory to him.

Mr. Calcraft

was surprised beyond measure at the hon. gentleman who had just sat down; he had called to recollection what had passed last session; he had expressed himself a friend to economy and to speedy reform and relief; and yet he was satisfied with the committee of the noble lord which might sit three years; this he deemed a speedy relief; he wished a reform in the offices of state, and he was satisfied with a committee containing seven placemen, who were thus to sit in judgment on themselves! He congratulated the constituents of the hon. gentleman; but he should be much surprised if they were satisfied with such tardy retrenchment and such ambiguous reform. He thought the proposal of a noble lord to support any member who proposed an amendment on the proceedings of the committee wholly inefficacious.

The question being put, "That the words proposed to be left out stand part of the question," the House divided:

Ayes	210
Noes	117
Majority	93

The main question being then put and agreed to, lord Castlereagh proceeded to name the committee. On lord Binning being named, Mr. Tremayne was proposed in his stead. On this a division took place:

For lord Binning	178
For Mr. Tremayne	136
Majority for lord Binning	42

On Mr. Huskisson being named, Mr. Tremayne was proposed in his stead. Upon this a division took place:

For Mr. Huskisson	180
For Mr. Tremayne	129
Majority for Mr. Huskisson	51

When the name of sir J. Sebright was proposed,

Sir John Sebright

said, that he had been named by the present ministers a member of the civil list committee, but they refused the powers necessary to render it effective, and it was, in fact, a gross delusion upon the public. That he considered the present committee to be also a gross imposition, and that he would not put his foot into a committee so constituted, as by so doing he should be lending his aid to mislead and delude the public. That he was as hostile as any man to the factious and misguided part of the community, but that now was the time, when it became the imperative duty of all independent members and country gentlemen to come forward, and to support such measures as would conciliate and give satisfaction to the rational and moderate part of the community. He therefore declined to be a member.

Lord Castlereagh

said, that the present committee had the powers which had been refused to the civil list committee.

Sir John Sebright

—I am aware of that, but I owe it to my country not to contribute to practise a gross and scandalous delusion upon the public.

Lord Morpeth

said, that his health would not allow of his regular attendance; but that even if that objection did not exist, he thought that the constitution of the committee was such, as not to merit the confidence of the country.

The names of sir J. Sebright, lord Morpeth, Mr. Ponsonby, Mr. Long, and lord Stanley, were withdrawn. The following are the names of the members appointed to form the committee: Lord Castlereagh, Mr. Bankes, Mr. Tierney, the Chancellor of the Exchequer, lord Binning, Mr. Bootle Wilbraham, sir John Newport, Mr. Peel, Mr. Hart Davis, sir George Clerk, Mr. Frankland Lewis, Mr. Huskisson, Mr. Tremayne, Mr. Nicholson Calvert, Mr. Davies Gilbert, Mr. Cartwright, Mr. Holford, Mr. E. Littleton, Lord Clive, Mr. Gooch, sir T. Acland.