§ The House having resolved itself into a committee to consider of an issue of Exchequer Bills for purposes of Local and Temporary Relief,
The Chancellor of the Exchequerrose and said, that before he proceeded to explain the purpose of the proposition which he had to submit to the committee, he should read, the two resolutions in which that proposition was comprised. The first resolution was,—"That it is the opinion of this committee, that his majesty be enabled to direct an issue of exchequer bills to an amount not exceeding 500,000l. to commissioners, to be by them advanced towards the completion of public works, now in progress, or about to be commenced; to encourage the fisheries, and to employ the poor in different parishes of Great Britain, on due security being given for the repayment of the sums so advanced." In the next resolution, which related to Ireland, there was a difference as to form, both because there existed no parochial funds in that country, and on account of another circumstance which he should afterwards explain. This resolution was, "That the lord lieutenant of Ireland be empowered to advance out of the consolidated fund of that kingdom a sum not exceeding 250,000l. for the completion of public works, or the encouragement of fisheries in Ireland, under condition of repayment in a time to be limited."
On every former occasion when grants had been proposed to parliament for any local purpose, a special committee had been previously appointed, for the purpose of ascertaining the nature and extent of the existing distress, and submitting to the House a specific plan for its relief. In the present case that course of proceeding was unnecessary, as the House was but too well acquainted with the nature and extent of the distress prevailing, by the numerous petitions that were lying on the table, and by the labours of the committees of last session and the present. As to the sums which it was proposed to apply to public works, the grounds on which the grant would be recommended would differ from those on which parliament had formerly been applied to for assistance in similar cases. The course in former instances had been to point out the benefits to the country in its commercial relations, from the completion of the work, in favour of which an application was made. 28 But the commissioners, who were to have the disposal of this money, would particularly consider the influence the prosecution of any public work would have on the employment of the present unemployed population. Their decision would be directed by the compound consideration of the utility of the work, and of the relief which would be afforded to the persons employed in it. There were a great variety of public works which had already received the sanction of parliament, but which languished on account of a deficiency of funds necessary to prosecute them. Of many, parts were already finished, which were useless until the whole was completed. Many urgent applications had been made to the government in behalf of these works, to which it had been intended the attention of parliament should have been called in a direct manner; but it was now considered that it would be more beneficial if the money was placed at the disposal of commissioners quite unconnected with government, and who would be named in the body of the bill. These commissioners he should propose, should be empowered to advance sums, by way of loan, to corporations and other bodies, for the purpose of making harbours or canals, or to trustees of roads, or to any persons engaged in public works now in progress, or about to undertake them.:—These advances were not to be confined to those undertakings which the parliament had sanctioned; for instance, the laudable association for the encouragement of fisheries would be a very proper institution to receive aid. Works of great utility and ornament, could thus be brought to completion without ultimate expense to the public, if, as he trusted it would prove, and as had happened on former occasions, the interest on the money advanced would defray the expense of the commission, and the other charges attending the loan. The transaction would in that case be not less advantageous to the public at large, than to the individuals immediately concerned. In Ireland it would not be practicable to nominate a similar commission, without such a delay as would defeat the purpose of the grant, which was urgent in its nature. It would be necessary to enter into a correspondence with that country, to know what gentlemen would undertake a duty which would entail some trouble without any prospect of reward. To avoid that delay, the sum appropriated to that country would be 29 placed at the disposal of the lord lieutenant, to be applied to the purposes he had mentioned.
Having detailed that part of the plan which referred to the completion of public works, he felt much greater difficulty in entering on the subject of advances on the security of the poor-rates. He had never thought that any thing could be done towards the relief of the agricultural population, by the advance of any such sum as he then proposed to advance. The agricultural interest was to such an extent identified with the state, that he could not conceive any circumstance by which it could be so far separated from its prosperity or difficulties as to receive relief from any sum which parliament could wisely advance to it. He was afraid also that loans to the agricultural districts, in aid of the poor-rates, would encourage the practice of curtailing the fair wages of labour, and of supplying the deficiency by assistance from the poor-rates. They might also be tempted to throw on the poor-rates of the present year those for whom they might otherwise find employment. On these accounts the relief of the agricultural distress did not form a part of the measure. When the bill was before the House there would be found clauses which would guard against such an idea. The advance to be granted to parishes was never to exceed the half of the rate of the last year, and no advance was to be made to any parish except in cases in which the rate was double the average of the two preceding years. Though the measure did not embrace the relief of the agricultural districts, it was hoped that it might afford a temporary relief to that species of distress which had that night been brought under the notice of the House, and it was to communications from the place from which the petition that night had been presented, (Birmingham), that the present measure was in part to be attributed. Undoubtedly that distress was lamentable, but he thought there were reasonable hopes of a speedier relief than the hon. and learned gentleman (Mr. Brougham) seemed to anticipate.
By this grant, indeed, he was induced to calculate, that such an important impulse would be given to the industry of Birmingham, as probably would afford the means of permanent relief to that town, which had suffered so particularly in consequence of the transition from war to peace—that that transition had materially affected Birmingham, would be ob- 30 vious from this fact, that during the war no less than three millions of small arms had been manufactured there for the use of the allies, independently of those provided for our own supply; and of course the cessation of such a demand, in consequence of the restoration of peace, must produce a most material result. But it was in this respect only that the trade of Birmingham had suffered, for it appeared that the export trade of Birmingham was not on the decline, at least in the same proportion as the home trade. The official value of the exports of steel and iron in the last three years was as follows;—In 1814, 1,094,000l. In 1815, 1,127,000l. In 1816, 1,054,000l. Being in the last year nearly the same as in 1814. The hardware and cutlery, which formed a distinct article, were as follows:—In 1814,354,000l. In 1815, 871,000l. In 1816, 782,000l., here it would be seen that the amount of exports under this head had only fallen ten per cent, in the last year below what it was in 1815, while it fully doubled that of the exports of the preceding year. The money value of the steel and iron exports was as follows:—In 1814, 1,143,000l. In 1815, 1,280,000l. In 1816, 1,095,000l. The money value of the exports of hardware and cutlery within the same period were in proportion to his former statement of their official value. It appeared, therefore, on the whole, that the manufactures of Birmingham had not fallen off, except in articles for the purposes of war, and from this he was led to believe that the distress which afflicted that town was merely in consequence of the cessation of the demands of government, while, with respect to foreign trade, that town had suffered no material diminution. In this conclusion indeed, he was confirmed by the information of those who were best acquainted with the trade of the country, and most competent to judge upon the subject. From such sources, he learned that the loan of 30 or 40,000l. to the manufacturers of Birmingham would be of material service under existing circumstances.
For the distress of Birmingham, as well as for that which affected other parts of the country, he felt the most lively interest, and therefore he rejoiced in the exercise of private benevolence to alleviate that distress. Noble examples had been given by individuals in this respect. But every one must be aware that private benevolence could not suffice to afford permanent re- 31 lief. While it was in activity, he was impressed with the conviction that it would not become government to interfere. But the fact was, that the resources created by that benevolence were nearly, if not altogether, exhausted, and therefore it became the duty of government to contribute its aid for the relief of the industrious poor, not only by every practicable economy in the public expenditure, but by an actual loan to those who had an opportunity of giving employment to industry. He felt indeed so strongly the peculiar situation of Birmingham, as described in the petition* presented by an hon. and learned gentleman and so fairly animadverted upon by that hon. and learned gentleman that he should have conceived himself bound to submit a distinct proposition with regard to that town, but upon consideration it was deemed more just and expedient to submit a resolution couched in general terms, which might embrace all cases of real difficulty, with a view to guard against error and oversight, and to render the application of relief as extensive and beneficial as possible. That due provision would be made by the commissioners to be appointed to guard against the misapplication of these means there was every reason to conclude, and as to the details of the plan to be pursued for this very desirable purpose, he thought it better to leave those to be arranged by the collective wisdom of the House, while he should be ready to afford every explanation in his power with respect to the views of his majesty's ministers. He had not the presumption to suppose that what he suggested would be at first in such a perfect state as not to call for great revision. What views might be entertained by other gentlemen, or what objections might be urged against the plan which he had submitted, he could not presume to anticipate, but that plan was liable to correction, and it would, he trusted, be put in the most perfect, practicable shape, by the consideration and judgment of the House. His proposition at present was, that the resolutions which he held in his hand should be adopted, and, when printed, submitted to further consideration on Friday next, or on any other day which might appear most convenient to the House. But he begged leave to observe, that dispatch was of the utmost importance in a question of this nature, and that no delay in the arrange-
* See p. 23.32 ments proposed should be allowed that could possibly he avoided. The right hon. gentleman concluded with proposing his first resolution.
Mr. Ponsonbyrose, he said, not to make any captious objection to the right hon. gentleman's plan, which he did not yet correctly understand, but to observe that the right hon. gentleman had not stated the mode in which the repayment of the proposed loans was to be secured. This was certainly an omission which it was desirable to supply. The omission was, perhaps, casual, but it was one of such importance, that he hoped the right hon. gentleman would favour the House with some explanation as to the manner in which, and the time when it was proposed that these advances should be repaid.
The Chancellor of the Exchequerstated, in reply, that it was his intention to leave the details as to the execution of his plan to be considered and adjusted by the House. He had, however, no objection to present an outline of his views with respect to the repayment alluded to by the right hon. gentleman. In the first place, he proposed that the exchequer bills to be issued should be payable in three years, that is, in 1820; and that security should be taken for the repayment of the several advances by instalments, so that the whole should be re-paid to the commissioners by the time when the exchequer bills became payable by the state. But that, in case it should be expedient for the completion of public works to allow a farther time, the commissioners should be empowered to extend it for six or seven years from the period of making the loan. It was also proposed that the several loans should bear an interest of five per cent, while the exchequer bills should be issued at their present rate of 3¼ per cent, and the difference would of course be for the advantage of the public. The securities to be taken for the proposed advances would be naturally had from those persons who were interested in the manufactures or public works to which those advances would be made, probably from the proprietors, and it would be for the commissioners to look to the adequacy of those securities. The security ought, of course, to be equally satisfactory as that required by individuals lending money, and this would operate to prevent the commissioners from making any injudicious advances. The commissioners it was to be presumed would not advance loans unless they were fully convinced of the 33 utility of the public works or manufactures, for whose benefit those loans were to be made, of the competency of such establishments to provide an adequate indemnity and of the impossibility of completing them, or carrying them on, without assistance.
§ Mr. Blakesaid, it was with much diffidence he obtruded himself upon the attention of the House, but upon a question of so much importance as the present, it might be possible for the most humble individual to suggest something useful. The principle of the proposed plan he took to be an advance of money for the relief of the labouring classes, usually employed in agriculture only. [Here the chancellor or the exchequer stated, that the relief proposed was not intended exclusively for the agriculturists.] Mr. Blake said, he regretted to find he was in a mistake, because he thought the landed interest ought now, especially when it was comparatively so depressed, to meet a larger share of the attention of the House than the commercial interest. It was plain the plan was not to operate as a substitute for the poor laws farther than as its effect would be to diminish the number of persons who would otherwise be obliged to resort to their aid. He submitted, that on the proper application of the funds, which it was proposed to raise, depended the success of the plan; for if a beginning should be made, by giving direct assistance to those who usually laboured in the arts and manufactures—they would be enabled, it was true, to continue their usual avocations, but in the end parliament would increase their stock on hand, and thereby remove their prospect of a market. The only effectual relief, which could be found for the manufacturer was a market. If a market were found for the manufacturer, he was at once supplied with money, and a market would always ensure a supply more than equal to the demand. He was sorry to hear that it was intended to expend so much money in public works. This would depress further the price of land. Land was the grand source of our commercial prosperity—it was the source of our revenue. Public works were generally understood to mean works of ornament rather than of productive utility, and the money expended on them should not be repaid by a taxation on land; but if the money should be expended in the enclosure and cultivation of waste lands, and in the extending and 34 improvement of the inland navigation of the country, the very produce of this expenditure would not only repay the sum borrowed, but would leave a considerable surplus to the owners of the soil, and at the same time create a circulation of money, which would open a market for the manufacturer, and thus relieve every class of the population. But if this effect was to be looked for in England, how much greater and more beneficial must it be in Ireland. In England, improvement might be said to have arrived almost at perfection, but in Ireland nature had done more than in England, yet there she was totally unassisted by art; nay, in some instances, artificial canals were made upon so stupendous a scale, as to lead one to suppose that it was intended to subdue rather than assist the natural advantages of the country. The Irish, ardent to imitate England, did so upon a plan of magnificence, utterly inconsistent with the hope of remuneration by trade, and thence the derangement of their canal speculations; but if, instead of imitating the English, whose country was suited to such undertakings, the Irish only connected their numerous navigable lakes with each other, and with the sea, the experiment would produce, in a very short time, a noble accession of wealth to themselves and increased strength and prosperity to the general interests of the empire. It was under this view of the subject he conceived it to be his duty to suggest to the right hon. gentleman, that the funds intended for Ireland would be best applied to works of the description to which he had just adverted.
§ Mr. Philipsdeclared his inability to comprehend the nature of the security alluded to by the chancellor of the exchequer. Did the right hon. gentleman mean to confine the proposed loans to public works actually begun? ["No, from the treasury bench, "they are to extend to works to be begun."] As these loans were to be granted for the construction of public roads, how, he would ask, were the parochial rates to be relieved by pledging these rates to the persons who should become security for the repayment of the loans? Such a plan would, in his opinion, rather tend to augment the rates and to aggravate the evil so loudly complained of. Then as to manufactures, it was a delusion, to conceive that this plan would afford any relief; for to his knowledge the manufacturing towns did not want capital 35 to give employment to labour, but a marker for the sale of their productions. Show them a market, and the manufacturers would soon find the means of going to it. It was, therefore, a mockery to suppose that the proposed advance would be productive of any advantage to the manufacturers, and it was equally delusive to say that the distress of the country was (with the exception of the harvest), only of a temporary nature; for the fact was, that we were broken down by the pressure of taxation. This was the great evil, that by taxing every article of export, we were rendered unable to sell our produce or manufacture on reasonable terms, especially to foreigners. Again, as to the system of securities proposed by the right hon. gentleman, it was obvious that the establishment of such a system must interfere most injuriously with the transfer of property. For who could calculate that under such a system any property purchased might not most unexpectedly be swept away by an exchequer extent, or extent in aid. The whole system of the right hon. gentleman was indeed pregnant with difficulty and delusion, while the only effectual way of relieving the distress of the country was, to reduce our public establishments, and to introduce a rigid economy into every branch of the public expenditure, to which he feared neither the right hon. gentleman nor his colleagues were in any degree disposed.
§ Mr. Grenfellexpressed a wish to know in what way it was intended to advance the proposed loans, whether in specie or in bank-notes—whether the exchequer bills were to be put into the hands of the bank, there to remain with interest accumulating upon them for three years, or lent at once to the parties from whom they required securities to be taken? He suggested, that it would be very practicable to issue exchequer bills of 100l. or 50l. each, and so to render them a part of the circulating medium of the country.
The Chancellor of the Exchequerreplied, that the intention was, to issue exchequer bills, as in former cases, at 100l. or perhaps at 50l. each, to the parties giving the required securities, and thus from the regulation of interest, they might be taken at par, and so become a part of the circulating medium of the country. But he should enter further into the details on a future occasion. With respect to the observations of an hon. member, he could assure him that he had no greater wish 36 than any other gentleman to practise delusion on the country; but he had no hesitation in stating, that he was completely of opinion, that the distress of the country was only temporary. Indeed, if such was not his opinion, he must regard not only the present, but any plan that human wisdom could devise, as a mere delusion, and insufficient to remove the evils complained of. But the object of the project which he had submitted was, to relieve the distress of an unfavourable season; and in so doing, it was proposed to follow the examples of 1793 and 1811, neither of which had been found productive of inconvenience.
§ Lord A. Hamiltonwished to know what was the mode of security to be adopted in Scotland, where there were no poor-rates?
The Chancellor of the Exchequerreplied, that in parishes in which there were no poor-rates, personal security would be substituted.
§ Mr. Lambwas anxious that it should go forth to the world, that the vote of exchequer bills now proposed was not to give relief in the vulgar acceptation of the phrase, but to employ the poor. He wished this to be understood, as otherwise sensations might be excited in the people from their being told that a large sum of money had been voted for their relief that would prove but delusive and vain. He thought there would be some difficulty in getting that security given which it was intended to demand. Without this plan of the right hon. gentleman, there was no difficulty in getting capital advanced, where good security was offered. The only difficulty was how to employ capital to advantage. The plan for lending money to parishes he thought would be attended with some inconveniences; but the regulations under which the chancellor of the exchequer had proposed it should be advanced, were, in his opinion, extremely wise, and obviated many of the objections which otherwise might have been urged against the measure. Some guard, he thought, ought to be obtained, to prevent land from being pledged as parish security by the occupier, to the prejudice of the owner. Great burthens might fall on landlords, if occupiers made mortgages without their landlords consent.
Lord Cochranethought the money should be given to the people as a repayment for what had been taken from them, and that no securities should be required. 37 The minister spoke of certain districts suffering chiefly by the transition from war to peace; but were not all our manufacturers suffering? The plain fact was, that all our manufacturers were borne down by excessive taxation. It was called preposterous to think of reducing the interest of the public debt. At present, land scarcely fetched half its value, and provisions had fallen in price; yet all this distress existed. We had been told from authority, that commerce would revive; but had that been the case? Would the chancellor of the exchequer say, as a man of honour, he believed that under the present pressure of taxation, manufactures and commerce would revive? That revival was obviously impracticable. All articles, whether for home or foreign consumption, were loaded with taxes; and it was demonstrable, that the manufactures of France and Germany came to market with advantages over ours. Notwithstanding all our machinery, our skill, and our capital, we were beaten out of our trade. Our whole navy could not prevent the introduction of contraband goods; and if we could manufacture cheaper, our articles would be sure to find their way to the continental markets. Our distress was brought upon us by a profligate expenditure. A great evil existed in the pensions, sinecures, and rewards given by ministers to subservient persons. Unless that system were stopped, he should despair of all hopes of relief. Great rewards were given for doing what a man should be ashamed to do. A larger army would be wanted, if the public were to be pressed down universally to find means to enable the fund holders to contract for loans and jobs. The present plan was nugatory and contemptible: the poor-rates were stated to have been nearly twelve millions in one year. What, then, could this relief effect? A pamphlet by an hon. member stated, that every man paid at least 10l. a-year in taxes. Why was a labourer so much more able in America to rear his family, but because he had less taxes to pay, to support an army, navy, and civil list? If they put a sponge on the whole public debt, and threw the books into the sea, the country would not be poorer. Bank-notes passed now like guineas, but some time ago they were at a very low rate. Ought not the fund holders to share in the public sufferings with others? It was just and indispensable that they should do so. All expedients must prove nuga- 38 tory. What good would the relief afford in Birmingham, when they could not manufacture arms, because nobody wanted them, and when more knives and scissors were made than there was any demand for? The manufacturers were absolutely supported out of the poor-rates. It was essential that some radical remedy should be applied, and that could not be done without great general retrenchments and reductions.
Mr. Ponsonbysaid, he was not sure he understood the measure now proposed by the right hon. gentleman; indeed, he was rather inclined to think that he did not understand it. He was willing to suppose that it had been brought forward with the best intentions; but he was certain, if it were intended to produce good, it should be quickly put in operation. He therefore had no desire to impede the progress of the measure, but, on the contrary, felt; sincerely desirous of promoting it. He had heard enough, however, to convince him, that the House could not enter into the consideration of the whole question, till the bill was regularly before them. The right hon. gentleman would do well, therefore, to bring in the bill as soon as possible. At the same time, he wished distinctly to state, that he should not consider himself bound, in consequence of thus assenting to all the previous steps, to approve of the measure itself, when he had fully considered it.
The Chancellor of the Exchequerobserved, that nothing could be more fair or candid than the proposition of the hon. member; and he should be far from considering any individual pledged to approve of the measure hereafter, merely on account of his voting for the resolutions. Nothing was more improper than to enter into the details of the measure in the present stage. He therefore reserved several explanations he had to give till the proper opportunity for offering them. As to the remarks made by a noble lord, he thought them altogether unworthy of examination; or reply.
Mr. Ponsonbysaid, if the plan were even more objectionable than it appeared at the first view, yet there was something so pleasing to the mind in the idea of providing relief for the present distresses of the poor, that he could not for a moment bring himself to oppose the consideration of any scheme which seemed likely to attain that object.
§ Lord Miltonsaid, it would certainly be 39 very invidious to throw any obstructions in the way of a measure which was intended to relieve the poor; but, at the same time, it was essential that the House and the country should clearly understand the nature of the measure, which he was sure had not been the case, with respect to the House, until that evening. And he knew that out of doors an opinion prevailed, that it was intended for the relief of the poor generally. In fact, one object of the measure was only to facilitate the means of giving employment to those persons who happened to be so locally situated, that works of a public description were carrying on in their neighbourhood. The other object was, to enable particular parishes to afford parochial relief, where the poor-rates were above the level of a certain ratio. He confessed he doubted the practicability of the plan, especially with regard to the latter point, because the distress that was felt in many parishes, arose not merely from the want of labour, but from the want of a market whither the product of that labour could be carried, and because the funds applicable, to parochial relief were rapidly crumbling away. Now, the proposed plan would not assist those funds. It might place a certain quantity of money at the disposal of the overseers, but then it was to be recollected, that every parish which accepted of such assistance contracted a parochial debt. He would suggest the propriety of dividing the resolution into two distinct propositions, the one, for employing the poor in places where public works might be carrying on the other, for extending aid to particular parishes. His reason was, because there might be various opinions upon those two points, and because it would be desirable that if and relief were granted by parliament the act should be marked with as much unanimity as possible.
§ Sir E. Brydgesconcurred in the propriety of the proposed measure, and should have been glad if a greater sum had been determined upon. He thought it was the only mode of relieving the people, for labour was the foundation of wealth; without labour the people could not be happy, or the state prosperous.
§ Sir J. Newportadverted to the injurious effect which would probably be produced by the apprehension of becoming liable to a crown process. If extents of the Crown were so formidable to persons who became debtors of the Crown for ob- 40 jects of their own, was it likely that many would be found willing to incur such a liability for purposes of a merely charitable nature? He was afraid that consideration would prove greatly detrimental to the operation of the measure, unless some means were adopted to guard against it. Another objection was this: one of the main objects of the plan was, to afford aid to inland navigation, to afford the means of cutting canals through the country. Now, there were canals already begun, which individuals might wish to carry still farther. To enable them to do this, they might apply for a part of this money. Having become debtors to the Crown, to a certain extent, the consequence would be, that, if they were not able to repay the loan, the Crown would have an opportunity of sweeping away the whole property, to the injury of the private creditors, whose money had been expended in the commencement of the work. The Crown would not come in rateably, like the private creditors, and take its share with the others. It would swallow up all the funds of the concern, and thus, instead of doing good would inflict injury. He owned he did not see at present, how the proposed plan could have any advantageous operation; at the same time, he was far from feeling any disposition to oppose a scheme for relieving the distresses of the country if it had but the slightest probability of being feasible.
The Chancellor of the Exchequersaid, that where persons failed in their repayment of the loan, and process was issued against them in consequence, a provision would be made in the bill, to prevent the Crown from having a priority over the other creditors. As to the suggestion, that the resolution should be divided into two parts, he believed so many public works would be found for the employment of the poor, as to render such a division unnecessary. He wished to hear every objection that could be fairly stated to the measure, and would feel obliged by any corrections upon the plan as proposed by him.
§ Mr. Babingtonobserved, that one part of the resolution went to give employment to the poor, on public works; the other was intended to relieve the poor in parishes. Now, in very many parishes there were no public works. How, then, were the poor to be employed? If the overseers, in the manufacturing districts, became manufacturers (their capital being 41 the public funds), in order to give employment to the poor, they would not manufacture on commercial principles, and would prevent private individuals from continuing in business. This would turn so many people out of employ, that they could not be supported by the public purse. He had had occasion, in his part of the country, to see instances of this evil. Where bounty was bestowed, five times as many were deprived of work as were employed through such forced means. Wages, too, were increased in consequence of such application. The evils altogether arising from creating manufactures by means of a bounty from government appeared to him insuperable.
The Chancellor of the Exchequersaid, there was no intention to exact as a condition, from the parishes which might apply for aid, that they should use the money in providing employment for their poor. At the same time, it would be highly desirable, that the relief granted should be, as much as possible, in the shape of work, leaving it to the parish to select the particular description of employment. Generally speaking, he apprehended that public works, such as roads, buildings, bridges, canals, &c. would be the kind of occupation selected, as requiring merely labour, and not any particular kind of skill.
§ Mr. Lytteltonshould not now inquire what might be the details of the bill, or what the objections that might be urged, but there were one or two points upon which he wished to say a few words. The right hon. gentleman, in his opinion, had assumed certain facts which he did not think were tenable. First, that the present distress was greatly owing to the want of capital. He did not conceive that to be the case; and indeed, as far as his information extended in regard to that part of the country with which he was more immediately connected, he knew it was not. It was rather a want of the means of employing capital and rendering it productive. Next, the right hon. gentleman asserted, that if capital were advanced at 5 per cent, interest it might be usefully employed in public works. With respect to public works, he did not know what magic there was in those words. If public works were productive, private adventurers would still be found willing and able to prosecute them. Roads, canals, bridges were to be 42 made. If those who now carried on these works were unable of themselves to go on with them, or to carry them to a greater extent, any others must become losers by attempting them. What use or benefit could be proposed by forcing forward such works beyond the demands and interests of the country? As to fisheries, he should waive any observations upon them, for there might possibly be some which only required funds to be carried on with vigour. With regard to the distress felt in particular parishes, what was the nature of the relief proposed to be extended to them? In plain words, when a parish was bankrupt, then assistance was to be afforded, and for which assistance its bankrupt funds were to be taken as a security, unless, indeed, some kind of personal security was to be superadded. He should like to know in what sense the right hon. gentleman talked of personal security. Did he use the expression in the meaning which was commonly given to it in the commercial world? Or did he look to the security of real property? If to real properly, then that would in the first instance be attached by the exchequer, and the person would afterwards be seized and thrown into gaol. In all human probability, the scheme would be perfectly nugatory, as applicable to parishes. Unless they could provide a market for the produce of labour—unless they could revive the commerce of the country—he did not see how the issue of exchequer bills could be of any benefit, for they would not create resources.
Mr. C. Grantjun. said, the measure must first present itself to the House as one intended for the relief of certain individuals. Great numbers of persons being thrown out of employment, were in danger of starving—to them it was intended to afford succour; and the question next was, how that succour should be bestowed? Undoubtedly, it was much better to give it on the score of labour, than as a gratuity; and, therefore, he highly approved of his right hon. friend's plan. It was not intended, that the money advanced should be laid out in the establishment of manufactories. It would be most impolitic to do that. Such a proceeding would only have the effect of forcing manufactories into the market when there was no sale for them. The same observation, he conceived, applied to agriculture. By pursuing the plan of his right hon. friend, they would support the morals of the 43 people by teaching them industry, while they perfected works that would be most useful and ornamental to the country. That was the proper course of proceeding instead of forcing into a market already overburthened, an additional quantity of manufactures.
§ Sir M. W. Ridleyconfessed, that he did not exactly understand the right hon. gentleman's plan. In the case of money lent to perfect a turnpike road, independent of the security of the tolls, he understood that a personal security would be given by the borrower to the lender. He wished to know, whether, in parishes, a personal security was required, as well as one on the poor-rates? The right hon. gentleman observed, that the difference between the interest paid by the public for the exchequer bills, and that which would be demanded of the borrowers, would meet every expense incidental to the plan. Now, he begged to inquire, whether the commissioners were to receive salaries or large gratuities?
The Chancellor of the Excheqaerreplied, that personal securities must be given to the commissioners, as well in the case of parishes as of public works. With respect to the second question, he should merely observe, that on other occasions of a similar kind, gentlemen had been found who devoted their services to the public gratuitously; and it was to be hoped that no difficulty would be experienced in discovering individuals equally disinterested in the present instance.
§ Mr. Broughamsaid, he agreed with what had fallen from his right hon. friend below him, that it would be most painful to his feelings if he should find himself compelled to interpose any obstacles in the way of the present measure. It would be arrogance in him, however, imperfectly as he yet understood its nature, to argue upon its general character; and he could only express a hope that it might be found practicable, and calculated to overcome many of the objections to which it at first appeared liable. At the same time he wished to take that opportunity of expressing one or two doubts that prevailed in his own mind. In the first place, as to the manner in which the money was to be employed. It was evident, that it would be chiefly, if not entirely, applied to the promotion of public works. As to the idea of parish officers becoming manufacturers, it was so prepostrous, that its absurdity hardly 44 required to be illustrated. It was impossible they should be able to carry on any branch of manufacture, either with benefit to the community or with comfort to themselves. The idea was equally absurd, as applicable to agricultural pursuits. Public works, therefore, of some kind or other, would be the objects to which the money must be applied. But then a difficulty immediately occurred. What now kept public works from going on? Was it the want of capital solely? He was afraid not. He was afraid it was the want of a demand for public works, and that canals, bridges, and roads, were not now wanted, for the same reason that other productions of labour were not wanted. If they were found no longer to answer the views of private adventurers, it was not likely they would ever tempt persons to become debtors of the Crown for the sake of carrying them on. If, on the other hand, they were desirable speculations, would not the money that was necessary for their continuance, be borrowed in the usual way? For it would have this advantage, that no exchequer process could be issued against the borrower, and it appeared that the usual Crown process was to be employed in recovery of whatever sums might be lent in pursuance of this proposition. The only effect of the measure would be a facility of obtaining loans. It would throw 1,500,000l. into the market, and thus facilitate loans; and this would be its only effect, its only benefit. With respect to canals, he believed there was nothing which had been more overdone in this country than that description of improvement. Besides, the assistance in that way must necessarily be very limited. At best there were but two canals at which work could be increased. About three docks might be found to be made throughout the country. Then, as to roads and bridges, he believed there was no slowness, even in the present distressed state of the country, in making roads where they were wanted. The advantage was so evident and the benefit so immediate, that capital to undertake them was seldom deficient. Perhaps application might be made for assistance to finish a bridge or two, but even there his own hopes were not very sanguine. It surely was not intended to make canals, and then to get water to go into them; to build bridges over places where there was no water. What relief, then, were the distressed throughout the country to derive 45 from this measure? With regard to parochial relief, he doubted whether any great advantage would be derived from that part of the plan. He would take Birmingham for example, from which place he had that night presented a petition, signed by upwards of 12,000 persons, who were out of employ. He might fairly, however, estimate the unemployed male population of that town and its neighbourhood, who were capable of work at 25,000. According to the proposed plan, by which the relief afforded to a parish was to be in the proportion of one half of what it annually paid in poor-rates within a certain period, Birmingham would be entitled to receive only 30,000l., having paid for some time past at the rate of 60,000l. a year for the relief of its poor; that was about 22 or 23 shillings a piece! But suppose to that were added 50,000l. for a canal, a road, or a bridge. The whole relief which that sum would afford, at ten shillings a week for labour, would only be to employ 2,000 out of the 25,000 for one year, at wages of 10s. a week, a sum hardly sufficient for the support of life. These things he mentioned solely to guard against disappointment; to prevent expectations from being entertained that never could be realized.—There were two other points on which he had his doubts, and which he would shortly state to the House. The first regarded the mode of recovering the sum lent by exchequer process, if the security could not otherwise be made available to the public. He did not think such rigour was necessary, and, that if applied, it would defeat the objects of the plan. Although this was the usual mode of recovering the debts of the Crown, yet an act of parliament could easily dispense with it, and exclude the operation of extents. If the measure was at all intended or expected to yield relief, let the security upon which the advance was to be made be the same as that demanded by other capitalists, and nothing more. If the process of extent was to hang over all those who availed themselves of the means of encouraging labour and completing public works, there would be no individual, or associations of individuals, who would expose their property by stepping forward to take part of the loan. Corporations might be found to borrow on corporation funds, in which they felt no personal interest, but private persons would never run such a risk.—A second point to which he wished to call 46 the attention of the House, and upon the proper settling of which he entertained some doubts, was the manner in which the fund, supposing it to be called for, was to be distributed; who were to be the persons under whose management the exchequer issue was to be placed, and what were the regulations to be made to guard against abuse? Every thing would depend upon the wisdom and the impartiality of the commissioners, and the manner in which securities were required. The greatest care ought then to be taken in the selection of these commissioners, who, according as they did their duty, well or ill, might employ the funds placed at their disposal beneficially for the country, or convert them into a source of corrupt influence and an engine for party purposes. Such a choice of them should be made as would not only be agreeable to both sides of the House, but would coincide with the wishes and deserve the confidence of the country—men above all suspicion and free from all influence. Such precautions against using the public purse for the promotion of ministerial or personal objects were the more necessary at the present time, when we were probably within four or five months of a general election, in which the influence of this measure might be used. When speaking of the relief to be administered to the country, he was reminded of one class of men, whose case, as much as any other, deserved consideration; and from whom, if no relief was prepared for them, no exaction should at present be made. He alluded to that distressed class of persons who were still in arrears for property-tax. If exchequer-bills were issued to enable them to put off the payment of their arrears for two or three years, or to remit the payment altogether, a great and unequivocal good would be done. Much of our suffering, in many instances, arose, he was convinced, from the oppressive operation and heavy arrears of that tax. This was the cause why the retail dealers sales were diminished. The persons themselves were in a most lamentable and hopeless situation: they had not paid their taxes, because they were unable to pay them; and he was persuaded that their arrears might be cancelled without any loss to the revenue, or any encouragement to others to withhold payment. He threw out this hint for the consideration of government; and suggested to the chancellor of the exchequer, that in the ways and means of the year, he should in- 47 troduce some measure to relieve the great distress and misery which these people suffered. In stating the difficulties and the; doubts that occurred to his mind at the present moment, he did not wish to be understood as having given any decided opinion, or as having precluded himself from the most ample discussion, when the details of the plan were better understood, and its provisions came in a different shape under the consideration of the House.
Mr. Buttertvorthrecommended that a portion of these funds should be applied to the erection of parochial school houses.
The first resolution was put and carried. On the second resolution, for voting the sum of 2.50,000l.to be applied to the use of the public works and fisheries of Ireland,
§ Sir F. Floodexpressed his surprise at the short measure of relief meted out for his native country, considering her merits and her sufferings. Ireland had a claim over every other part of the empire. What had her conduct been? She had been patient under suffering, while here they had been meeting in Spa-fields to subvert the laws of the land. Yet that patient meritorious Island, the right hand of England, was in a state of almost absolute Starvation. He had travelled over five counties of it lately, and found the poor had nothing to subsist upon but their half boiled potatoes and their prayers. Let the people of Ireland have justice done them. They had contributed more than their share to the victorious war that had terminated in a glorious peace; and they did not, like the inhabitants of England, desert their country, and emigrate abroad to spend their money. The number of rich emigrants, who gave to foreigners the bread of their own countrymen, was a serious evil. They were now leaving the country like shoals of herrings. People of all ranks, nobles and commoners, earls and lords, were removing to distant lands. They ought to be made responsible for the money they drew from home, and the people whom they impoverished. They professed to have the object of amusement for their emigration; but if they want amusement out of their own country, let them come among us. Instead of that they run to Dover, from Dover to Calais, from Calais to Boulogne, and from Boulogne to France. [a laugh.] He wished 20 per cent, were laid on the income of air absentees, He would allow none to 48 be abroad for more than two or three months, unless they could produce the certificate of a physician that their health required a change of climate. The Irish members, at a great expense and with considerable difficulty in procuring their rents from their unfortunate tenants, came to this country to do their duty; and yet in the meritorious endeavours of the chancellor of the exchequer, their suffering constituents were cut off with short measure. All they wanted was capital, he trusted, therefore, the right hon. gentleman would reconsider the second resolution, and add a few thousands more for the use of the right arm of England.
§ The resolution was then agreed to.