§ Mr. Grenfellrose to move for certain Papers, to elucidade the transactions between the public and the Bank of England, with respect to the stamps on the bills and notes, issued by them. A compromise had, as was well known, been entered into with the Bank. The reason, and the only reason, for this indulgence granted to the Bank of England, was the practice which they had been in for a considerable time past—a practice to which he had no objection—of cancelling all their bills and notes the moment they were returned. With this arrangement, or any other which had a tendency to promote the fair profits of the Bank of England, it was not his intention to interfere, so long as their profits were not all at the expense of the public. He wished to be allowed to make one or two observations on the different agreements which had been entered into. The first agreement was made in 1791, and the sum agreed to be paid as a composition for the duty on stamps was 12,000l. per annum. At that time, as the House were aware, the Bank paid in specie, and no notes under 5l. were issued. The whole amount of paper in circulation, in 1791, was between 10 and 11,000,000l. On this agreement they went on till 1799. During the interim, several additions had been made to the Stamp-duties, without any addition having been made to the compromise on that account. In 1799, 527 when the Bank first issued 1l. notes, a duty of 2d. for each note, or 2d. a pound was added. By the Act of 1799, 39 Geo. 3, cap. 107, it was enacted that the composition, in consequence of the increased duties, should be in future 24,000l. In this 4,000l. was put down for the notes of twenty shillings, and 8,000l. for the different duties enacted between 1791 and 1799. In 1804 an addition of 50 per cent, was imposed on the 1l. notes. At that time the circulation of the Bank had increased four millions and a half; but notwithstanding this great increase in the circulation, the addition to the composition was not even in proportion to the 50 per cent, on the 1l. notes, and no notice was taken of the addition to the circulation in the mean time. In 1808 another great addition was made to the stamps on bills of exchange and notes. An addition to the composition was made in proportion to the Stamp-duties, but taking no notice of the increased circulation. It did appear that in every agreement which had been entered into with the Bank for the last 20 or 30 years, a most undue advantage was given to the Bank of England at the expense of the public; and that this composition in lieu of stamps was only one of many instances in which the public had been injured. They had not only in some instances failed to increase the composition in proportion to the increase of stamp duties, but they had also paid no attention whatever to the progressive increase in the Bank's circulation. In 1791 the circulation was from 10 to 11 millions. When the second was imposed in 1799 it was 12 millions—in 1804 it was 17 millions—last year it was increased to the enormous amount of 30 millions—and at the period he was speaking the average was 27 millions. Here they had an increase of from 11 to 27 millions, without any addition to the composition from this increase in the circulation. He wished to suggest an annual account, in which should be stated the whole amount of the circulation in paper of all descriptions, arranged in classes, according to the different rates of Stamp-duties. The House would then be enabled to judge what the composition of the Bank of England ought to be, without any injustice on either party. The two papers he should therefore move for were—1st. An Account of the Bank of England paper of ail descriptions, arranged in classes, according to the different rates of duty cor- 528 responding to them. The want of such accounts as that now moved for had been the cause of a loss incurred by the public, and an improper gain made by the Bank, amounting to hundreds of thousands of pounds [Hear, hear!] He saw his hon. friend, the Governor of the Bank, smile at this;—he was ready to go into the proof of his assertion with his hon. friend, or any director or member who might be disposed to question its accuracy. This was the result of calculations made on the papers now before the House, and he would pledge himself for their accuracy. The duties on nine millions, which was the amount of ll. notes in circulation, alone amounted to 150,000l. The calculation he had made upon the subject showed, that on the three last years the sum which the Bank ought to have paid as a compensation for the non-stamping of their notes was 300,000l., which, divided by three, gave 100,000l. per annum. What did the Bank in fact pay? only 42,000l., consequently they were clear gainers out of the public purse to the extent of 58,000l. per annum. To that was also to be added the sum that would be produced by the stamps upon notes above 20l. in value (for the estimate he had made above only referred to those of minor amount), as well as the further revenue that would be derived from Bank post-bills, which were likewise not taken into the account. He should not have the least objection to the Bank deriving this advantage, if the public was, in any respect as important, gratuitously served by the Bank; but when be saw that the nation paid so exorbitantly already for the duties performed by that establishment, he must put it to the Governor of the Bank and the Chancellor of the Exchequer, whether they could expect that the oppressed people should make so large a sacrifice, to swell still more the treasures of a wealthy corporate body? He moved, therefore, for an Account of the amount of Bank-notes in circulation on the 1st and 15th days of each month, from the 1st of June 1814, to the 15th of May 1815 inclusive, distinguishing the amount of notes under the several classes. Also, a similar Account of the amount of Bank post-bills in circulation on the 1st of July 1814, 1st of October 1814, 1st of January 1815, and 1st of April 1815.
§ Mr. Mellishadverted to the time that would be taken, and the trouble given in making out the accounts required. Tho- 529 roughly to investigate the subject might probably occupy a clerk for six months. He had endeavoured to prevail on his hon. friend not to bring this motion before the House; but as he had not been able to succeed in that, he despaired now of inducing him to change his determination, and therefore would not take up the time of the House by going into the question. He regretted the course which the hon. gentleman had thought it his duty to take, from a persuasion that he (Mr. Grenfell) understood the business of the Bank company better than they understood it themselves.
§ Mr. Tierneysaid, that if one clerk could make out the return in six months, twelve clerks would be able to prepare it in a fortnight. It might cost the Bank trouble, but it would save the public 58,000l. a year. Did the Governor of the Bank mean to throw himself on the mercy of the House not to press a motion that would require time for compliance with it?
The Chancellor of the Exchequerdid not mean to oppose the present motion, but desired to guard against its being supposed that he would feel it his duty, in his official situation, to grant further papers on the same subject. He could not agree with his hon. friend in the view which he had taken of it.
§ Mr. Mellish,though he disapproved of the motion, did not mean to divide the House on it.
Mr. Ponsonbythought the public ought to be protected by Parliament as well as the Bank, and was of opinion, that the Chancellor of the Exchequer would have done well not to be so much on the alert in announcing to them that he should not be disposed to give further information. Before he endeavoured to guard himself in this respect, he might have waited till the papers now called for had been produced.
The Chancellor of the Exchequerhad only wished it should be understood that he disagreed with his hon. friend (Mr. Grenfell) on this subject, though he did not oppose the present motion. He did not consider the Bank ought to pay more than it had done up to the present time.
§ Mr. Grenfelldid not pretend to understand the business of the Bank so well as its governor; but he moved for the papers now under consideration, that he might better comprehend the nature of the dealings between the Bank and the Government. The House ought not to be kept 530 in ignorance upon the subject. What had fallen from the Chancellor of the Exchequer was rather alarming, namely, that he would act upon no other principle towards this body than that which had hitherto guided his dealings. Another mode of composition ought to be adopted, especially at a moment when the Stamp-duties were to be augmented 50 per cent. Should the Chancellor, of the Exchequer, on any future occasion, bring forward arrangements upon the old system, he should feel it his duty to take the sense of the House upon them on every occasion that was afforded.
§ The question was then put, and the motions were agreed to.
§ Mr. Grenfellthen moved, "That this House will, upon Wednesday next, resolve itself into a Committee of the whole House, to take into consideration the rate of composition paid by the Bank of England to the public in lieu of Stamp-duties on their Bank-notes and post-bills."
The Chancellor of the Exchequersaid, that if the hon. gentleman meant to give notice of a motion on the subject, when the day arrived, he should have no objection to the question being entertained; but if he intended now to press the motion, he would oppose it on this simple ground, that it was much too important thus to be brought before the House without a notice being previously given.
§ Mr. Tierneythought, unless the Chancellor of the Exchequer had some doubts on his mind as to the course which it might be proper to pursue, there could be no good reason for delay. His hon. friend was anxious to lose no time in, bringing under the consideration of the House what appeared to him a case of monstrous injustice; inasmuch as while ministers were imposing new taxes upon others, the Bank was exempted from the imposts to which it was justly liable.
§ Mr. R. Wardsaid, that as no previous notice had been given of a motion so very important, he should certainly oppose it.
The Chancellor of the Exchequerdid not think it just in the House to revise a bargain concluded between the Government and the Bank.
§ Mr. Hornerwas much surprised at the opinion expressed by the Chancellor of the Exchequer; for when the right hon. gentleman came to the House to require an increase on the Stamp-duties, if, at the same time, the composition with the. Bank 531 were increased, it could not be esteemed a revisal of the bargain, but a new composition, proportioned to the increase of the Stamp-duties.
Mr. Baringsaid, that the Bank never would refuse to pay what the Legislature might deem just and expedient; but he hoped when the question came to be considered, that it would be entered upon with a better temper, and a more conciliating spirit than the frequent attacks made on it by his hon. friend (Mr. Grenfell)) would seem to indicate. The House was then called upon to bind itself to an examination of the composition, without having, as was acknowledged by the hon. member, any information on which they could form a correct decision.
§ Mr. Grenfellwas anxious that all the information should be laid before the House, that it might be satisfied as to the correctness or incorrectness of the principle of the agreement with the Bank of England. In his opinion, under the new Stamp-duties it ought to pay three times the sum it now gave as a composition for stamps. The correct principle was this—that the Bank of England should pay, as a composition, as much as the sum it would pay for stamps amounted to, were they required to be affixed to their notes. The sum now paid was 58,000l. short of what it ought to be; and he had been long convinced that most undue advantages were given to the Bank in the bargains made by the minister. For this reason he had so often troubled the House upon this question.
Mr. Forbessaid, that country bankers complained that they paid 6d., where the Bank of England only paid one farthing.
The gallery was then cleared, and a division took place: For the motion, 43: Against it, 63: Majority, 20.