§ The House having resolved itself into a committee of supply, to which the Army Estimates were referred,
§ Lord Palmerstonsaid, he should merely state to the House, in a general way, the nature of the arrangements relative to the army. He had, in the first instance, made an estimate founded on the establishments at Christmas last, and then he had stated the augmentations which had been made since in consequence of the rupture with France; and the House would thus be enabled to see what increase had been made in consequence of the general state of our relations with France. There was, upon the whole, a decrease in our establishments of this year, compared with those of 1814, of 47,000 men, and 2,652,000l. of charge. The total amount of Land Forces at Christmas last was 199,252, for which the charge was 5,587,706l. for Great Britain, and 1,134,173l. for Ireland—in all 6,721,880l. But since the rupture with France, there had been an augmentation of 9,148 men, and 317,219l. of charge, leaving the balance of diminution in favour of the present year, of 47,000 men and 2,652,000l. of charge. On the Household troops there had been a reduction of 1200 men. The regiments of Cavalry were first reduced after the peace, on account of their great expense; each regiment was reduced to eight troops of 60 men each. The number of regiments of Infantry had been considerably reduced—24 second battalions had been entirely disbanded. The whole reduction arising from this, without considering the augmentation which had since taken place, amounted to 22,000 men. The next head, the Embodied Militia, could not be compared with the estimate of last year. With respect to the next head, the pay of General Officers not with regiments, this was 588 founded on the arrangements of last year, and could not be compared with former accounts. In the next head, of Staff and Garrisons, a reduction of 237,000l. had taken place, of which 98,000l. was for the Home Staff, and the remainder for the Foreign Staff. He would state the comparative amount of the Staff now, and as it stood the former year. The Staff of 1815 was less even after the late augmentation than in 1814, by an amount of 39 general officers.—The increase on the head of Pay for Supernumerary Officers, ran to 6,000l. The head of Half-pay and Military Allowances had experienced an increase of 38,000l. This was partly owing to the number of reductions, and partly owing also to the augmentation in the rate of half-pay.—In the head of Out pensioners of Chelsea and Kilmainham hospitals, there had been an increase of 100,000l. arising partly from the disbanded second battalions, and partly from invalids. The Volunteer Corps had been diminished in expense 145,000l. The expense of the Local Militia was 27,6000l. less than in 1814. In the article of Foreign Corps there was a diminution of 10,000 men, and 383,000l. This arose principally from the disbanding four Foreign corps: the Brunswick infantry, which had gone to the service of the duke of Brunswick, Dillon's regiment, and the Chasseur battalion. In the Royal Military College there was an increase of 7,000l., but of this 6,000 was only a nominal increase. There had, however, been art actual increase of something more than 1,000l., of which 880l. was for a new building at Blackwater. In the Royal Military Asylum there had been a diminution of 3,000l. In the head of Retired Chaplains there had been a like reduction of 3,000l. arising chiefly from deaths. In the head of Medicines and Hospital expenses, there had been a diminution of 89,000l. on the estimate at last Christmas, but then there had since been an augmentation of 50,000l. over that estimate, leaving a balance of 39,000l. The increase in the Compassionate List amounted to 17,000l. In the Commissariat Department of Ireland there was a total increase of 69,000l. On the Barrack estimate the saving was 208,000l. There were some other variations which it would not be necessary to go into at present. The augmentation in the Land Forces, since Christmas last, amounted in all to 9,148 men, and 384,000l. of charge. The 589 augmentation to the Staff was 50,000l. Of this 6,000l. was for the Home Stall, and the remainder for the Foreign Staff. An additional major-general had been appointed on the home staff; the remainder consisted of medical officers, to be ready in case of any supply being wanted. A farther sum of 50,000l. would be wanted for Medical Stoves. It only remained for him to mention the head of Officers attached to the Portuguese Army. This arose from their being detached from their regiment, and placed on unattached pay. He would take this opportunity of stating, that there would be one additional charge, which he could not yet submit to Parliament. It was in contemplation to make to officers inarching with their regiments on home stations, an allowance corresponding to that made to soldiers on the same station. This was considered but equitable, as the officers were at such times deprived of those economical advantages which they might possess in stationary quarters; and it was thought better to give them such an allowance than to make a small increase to their daily pay, as the relief would thus come at the moment of the pressure.—On a general view, including the augmentation since the change in our relations with France, there was a diminution in the estimates compared with those of last year, without including the militia, which could not with propriety be taken into the comparison, but merely the land forces and foreign corps, of 47,000 men, and 2,652,000l. charges. He would not enter into further details, as it might be tedious to the House; but if any hon. member wished for further information, he should be happy in communicating it. The noble lord concluded with moving his first resolution: viz. "That a number of Land Forces, not exceeding 199,767 men (exclusive of the men belonging to the regiments employed in the territorial possessions of the East India Company, the Foreign Corps in British pay, and the Embodied Militia), commissioned and non-commissioned officers included, be maintained for the service of the United Kingdom, from the 25th of December 1814 to the 24th of December 1815."
§ General Gascoynesaid, it was his intention to have moved for an addition to the half-pay of officers; but from the alteration of affairs, in consequence of the war, he did not think it necessary now to bring forward any motion on the subject, 590 as he was apprehensive that if the half-pay was raised too much, it might deter those who had families from actual service. He wished to make a remark on the subject of officers' widows. It was the intention of the noble lord to put the widows of officers of the army on the same footing as those of navy officers. But though the same increase had taken place in the case of both, they were by no means on the same footing, because the officers of the navy had received an addition to their pay, at a time when no addition took place in the case of the army. It was understood that lieutenant-colonels and majors were on the same rank with post-captains under three years standing. Now the widow of a post-captain received 80l. and the widow of a lieutenant-colonel and major only received 70l. The whole sum requisite to put them all on the same footing would be 1,200l. He saw nothing in the papers on the table respecting, the Commissariat.
§ Lord Palmerstonsaid, this was always the subject of a separate estimate.
§ General Gascoyneproceeded to observe, that the coble lord had not stated whether the officers on half-pay on the Irish and English establishments were on the same footing. He wished also to know-by what act the poundage on the pay of officers was raised. He wished to know whether the Portuguese officers received pay both from England and Portugal. With respect to the half-pay which had been granted to the army, according to the noble lord's construction, it had been limited to certain services. By this means a great many meritorious officers would be excluded from it, contrary, as he was convinced, to the intention of the House. The services in the Peninsula were certainly brilliant; but were those officers who had served in Egypt, America, and Flanders, to be precluded from the additional half-pay because they were not in the Peninsula? Many of them were, on half-pay, not from their own choice. He wished therefore to move an additional allowance of 500l. to the widows of lieutenant-colonels, and of 700l. to the widows of majors.
Mr. Bennetwished to inquire into the expense of the Military College at Sandhurst. He had no objection to the establishment itself, but he had to the form which it seemed to assume, and which was calculated to give too much of a military tone to the character of the country.
§ Mr. Wilberforcethought the Military College highly beneficial to the country, from the instructive source of military education which it formed. It was surely essential that the officers in the service should have the opportunity of an extensive preliminary education.
Sir John Hopereprobated the general assertions in which Mr. Bennet had dealt, in his attack on the institution at the head of which he had the honour of being placed. The object, if properly executed, was most beneficial; it was open as day to inspection, and he should be happy to receive any hints that would be useful; as soon as any useful suggestion was made, the improvement would be attempted.
Mr. Bennetreplied, that his objections merely went to the military tone which the form and manner of the school assumed, not to the general principle of the establishment.
Sir John Hopespoke highly both of the objects and success of the institution in question. At the commencement of the war we had been obliged to study military science under foreign masters; we had since, through the munificent aid of Parliament, acquired the means of obtaining that instruction within ourselves. Out of 276 students of one class, 114 either had served, or were now serving on staff departments. The time consumed in becoming acquainted with regimental drill, and the manœuvres of taking up ground for forming in line, did not exceed an hour, or half an hour in the day; the rest was devoted to pursuits becoming a gentleman as a well-informed member of society, or more immediately connected with the views of that profession to which it was intended the student should be trained. In addition to those branches of instruction in which he was supposed to have already made some progress, his attention was directed to mathematics, to fortification, to the principles of military survey, both practical and theoretical, to drawing, and, according to the abilities displayed, to an intimate knowledge of the French and German languages. The series of his studies was completed by a high finishing examination made by other masters than those under whose direction he had been, and it was those masters who finally decided whether his proficiency and qualifications entitled him to a commission without purchase in his Majesty's service. Of another class, 651 officers 592 had already joined the army. The sum paid by an ordinary individual for these various advantages was 100l. per annum, but by officers, for their sons, the sum was proportioned to their own pay. He could conceive no system better calculated than the one of which he had attempted a faint description, to inspire the youths who should be educated under it, with a love and a veneration for that free branch and for those free principles of the constitution to which they were indebted, at least in so many instances, for cultivated minds, and brightened prospects. He could conceive nothing more likely to console a deserving officer than the knowledge that an asylum existed where his children might receive, at a charge proportioned to his means, the benefits of instruction, and a favourable opportunity of pursuing his own honourable profession.
§ Lord Palmerston,in answer to the inquiries of an hon. member, stated, that it had been agreed, after some difficulty, that the half-pay of the English and Irish establishments should be reciprocal, and that their respective officers, on removing, should receive the half-pay of the country in which they resided. The reason which had induced the exclusion of those officers whose service was anterior to the last war, or to the campaigns of the Peninsula, was, that there were a great number of inefficient officers, and it was difficult to come to the alternative of compelling them either to serve or to relinquish their commissions. In many cases there had been no real service, and the half-pay had been purchased as an annuity. With respect to the officers serving in the Portuguese forces, the various difficulties they had had to contend with, in rendering those troops fit for the field, appeared to justify the regulation by which they were allowed to receive Portuguese pay in addition to their own. In answer to a question put by another hon. member, he wished to observe, that the military establishment at Sierra Leone, had been formed on a plan recommended by the late member for Yorkshire; and its principle was, that as something must be done with the captured negroes, it was a favourable destination for them to be put on something like the level of a British soldier. The establishment consisted at present of 566 men, volunteers, and captured negroes, and of 104 boys. After what had been so well said by an hon. 593 end gallant friend, he should not enter into a vindication of the establishment at Sandhurst. He might be allowed, perhaps, just to say, that it might be a question whether we should have any army at all, but it could hardly admit of a doubt, that if we had military officers, they ought to be instructed and qualified, rather than ignorant and useless. The navy had already its seminaries; the artillery and the Indian army its public colleges. Was the British army alone to have no means of deriving a regular supply of efficient and educated officers? He should say no more at present than in reference to an observation which had fallen in the course of the debate, to slate that an inspection had taken place in the buildings at Sand-burst, and that it was discovered there was little or no foundation for the rumour that the dry rot had seized the timber.
§ Mr. Longbore testimony to the benefits arising from the Military College, and explained the nature of the poundage which had been alluded to, and the authority by which it was drawn. It was done away in cases of full pay, and, might hereafter be subject to limitation in other branches of the service.
§ Sir M. W. Ridleyreprobated the maintenance of a volunteer cavalry, whose services were not equal to the expense. He was convinced of the utility of the Military College.
§ General Gascoyneexpressed himself satisfied with what had fallen from the noble lord.
§ Mr. J. P. Grantexplained, the nature of Mr. Bennet's objection to the Military College, but applauded the general system on which it was conducted, and admitted its great utility. The pressing of waggons for the conveyance of baggage he believed had, in some instances, been carried to too great an extent, and some arrangement was in contemplation on the subject. As to the yeomanry, he thought this species of force was most valuable, not merely as a military force, but in aid of the Police, in which department it had been of the most essential service.
§ Mr. Wilberforceapproved of the establishment of the black regiments, and suggested that this description of force should be put on the same footing as European regiments.
§ Lord Palmerstonsaid, that they were on the same footing as whites, with the difference that two years of service in the West Indies did not reckon for three years 594 —the ground for that distinction not existing in the case of these regiments.
§ Mr. Wilberforcesaid, he more particularly alluded to enlistment for a limited period, from which this description of soldiery was precluded. If the blacks were allowed to return, after a certain period of service, to their native country with their military habits and associations, they would necessarily increase the disposition among their countrymen to enlist.
§ General Gascoynesaid, that in certain cases the blacks had been enlisted for a limited time.
§ Mr. Wilberforcethought the gallant general must have been misinformed, as there was a clause in the Act excluding the black troops from that benefit.
§ Mr. W. Smiththought it was due in justice to the blacks who when captured were placed in the situation of soldiers, without exercising any choice, to allow them, at any rate after a certain term of service, the alternative of further service or of return to their names.
§ The Resolution was then agreed to. Several sums were then voted for the different heads of army expenditure, forming in all a total of 7,917,387l.