§ The Chancellor of the Exchequer moved, that the House 803 should resolve itself into a Committee of Supply, and that the Navy Estimates, together with the estimates for several miscellaneous services, be referred to the said Committee. The Speaker having left the chair,
§ Sir George Warrenderrose. He said, he thought it unnecessary for him in bringing forward the Navy Estimates to go into any great length of detail. Any explanation that the Committee might require he would endeavour to afford. The sums expended for the service of the Navy were divided under two heads, the one consisting of expenses connected with ships afloat, the other with the pay of the civil offices and all expenses connected with ships not afloat. A great reduction had been made in the general expenditure of the Navy, by reducing the number of hands, and by placing officers on half-pay. This, however, caused a very considerable excess to be created under the head of half-pay, amounting to 436,396l. This excess arose from three causes; from the increased number of persons placed on half-pay—from the increased amount of the half-pay itself, and from the extensive naval promotion which had taken place. The House would recollect the plan which had been formed for better rewarding long and meritorious services. The inconveniencies which it was feared would attend it, he had the pleasure to say, had not been experienced; the happiest effects had been found to result from it, and it had given general satisfaction. The mode of rewarding masters mates, and midshipmen, which had been preferred to giving them half-pay, had been found more beneficial to them, while the country was spared such an expense. An arrangement had been made, by which, in time of peace, they would all have been employed; and, in addition to this, an extensive promotion to the rank of lieutenant had taken place from among the masters-mates and midshipmen. This promotion, much to the honour of the noble lord at the head of the Admiralty, had been made in the best possible way; as those who had been promoted were selected on no grounds whatever but those of merit and service. Having briefly explained the causes of the excess which appeared for half-pay, he thought it unnecessary to enlarge on the subject, as the House had always been ready to bear testimony to the distinguished merit of those who were benefitted by it; and large as the sum was, he 804 felt confident no charge would be more cheerfully voted than that which was intended to provide for the comfort of those whose gallant exertions had borne us triumphantly through a long and arduous war. The next great head of expenditure in these estimates, was for building and repairing ships; the extensive naval war in which we had been engaged, had made it necessary, at the close of the contest, to have great naval repairs immediately commenced. This, with a view to public economy, it was found proper to commence without loss of time. This had caused a considerable expense; but a great reduction, to the amount of 236,000l. had been effected by the arrangements made with respect to the King's-yards. He congratulated the Committee on these arrangements, which would in future furnish the country with an adequate supply of large ships. It was unnecessary for him to speak of the public works, which had already been brought before the House. He should not enter on these, unless information were called for. Great sums had been thus expended, and in particular on the Breakwater at Plymouth Sound, which had cost 250,000l. These expenses, however, he trusted would be found to have been wisely incurred, and the great work he had just mentioned he had every reason to hope would answer the purpose for which it was to be constructed. The estimates he had explained, made together 3,405,400l. being 200,000l. less than the corresponding estimates of last year. He had to propose an additional vote for for 20,000 men. Last year 70,000 men were voted for the navy, to these, in the present instance, he, as he had already stated, meant to call for an addition of 20,000 men. The total expense of the navy from the papers produced last year, had been 17,265,000l. The estimates before the House in the present year made it 12,526,778l. giving a difference of 4,739,000l. He was happy to say the navy was in as good a state as it had been in at any period of the war. It was in such a state of efficiency, that should the service of the country require a very large fleet, it could almost immediately be brought forward. It might be satisfactory, to the Committee to learn, that all the public ship-building had been transferred from the merchants to the King's yards, from which a great future saving might be anticipated. He concluded, by moving for a supply for 25,000 men (including 805 5,000 royal marines), for ten lunar months.
§ Sir M. W. Ridleywished to put a few questions relative to some of the items in these accounts: for instance one of 5,000l. for parish duties, lamps, and other expenditures for public use; another was 14,000l. for disbursements of a similar description; and a third of 10,000l. There were other sweeping sums for the navy departments at Deptford and Portsmouth, upon which some explanation, beyond stating the round sums, was due. Whilst looking to unexplained large points, he could not but lament a reduction in one which ought to be liberally maintained—he meant the superannuated or compassionate list. With reference to public works, he could not overlook the uncertain mode in which estimates were inserted; several of these were rated at uncertain sums. In proof of this, he adduced the sums expended upon Plymouth chapel; during the present year 5,400l. was voted for that purpose. The works thus indefinitely marked, amounted to 229,000l., 38,000l. of which had been thus expended. He had no doubt that the public service might require such appropriations; he only complained of the loose way in which they were stated.
§ Sir G. Warrenderobserved, that the preparation of distinct general estimates had only been the practice since many public works had been commenced. As to the Dock-yard items, they were more immediately within the department of his hon. friend, the Secretary to the Admiralty, who would doubtless give the necessary explanation.
Mr. Gordonsolicited an explanation of the sums of 1,000l. 500l. &c. for Sheerness, and other contingencies; also 5,000l. for parish duties, lamps, &c. There was another expense of 500l. for the Inspector of Telegraphs; now this salary, he thought; should have expired with the duty for which it was given, for the Telegraph service must have ceased during the last year. The 526,000l. credit for old stores recalled to his recollection the circum stance that great mismanagement prevailed in the mode of disposing of this species of public property: this ought to be inquired into, and remedied.
§ Mr. Crokerreplied, that as to the 5,000l. for small items, the estimate was taken from the details of the last year, and exposed to two checks, which of course controlled it properly. It was reduced to the lowest possible sum, and, considering its 806 nature, he was only surprised that it was not more. To meet some of these roundlystated sums, according to Mr. Bankes's Sill, the fees of several offices were in art applied, and there were two audits for their regular examination. The amount of this branch was certainly smaller than it had been last year. The telegraph estimate stood over since last December, and was for actual service; the reason of its being deferred was, that it should have the benefit of discussion with the other tarts of the public expenditure. The telegraphs had since been pulled down, but they were now in active preparation or renewal. The old stores disposal was n other hands than his for execution. He could only answer, that full and ample publicity was given before each sale, and it was competent for any person who had my complaint to make of this matter, to state such complaint to the Navy Board or the Admiralty. For his own part, he lever heard that any malversation had been complained of.
§ Sir M. W. Ridley,though glad to hear of good regulations, thought there could be no objection on the other side, to produce or obtain general estimates of the public works in hand.
§ Mr. W. Smiththought the income of 600l. per annum given to the paymaster of widows pensions, seemed more like a provision for the person than the proper, pay of the office. He felt this the more, when he compared it with the small income of the Astronomer-royal, a person who must stand high in point of education and science, and who must hold an extensive correspondence in every quarter of Europe: his salary was but 292l. per ann. and 100l. for an assistant. To such an office he would be glad so see an augmentation. The chaplain-general of the fleet had 500l.: to this he certainly did not object. He complained of the expense of the naval hospital at Yarmouth, which had cost 100,000l., besides 20,000l. for building an officer's house near it. The hospital was constructed to hold 500 patients, yet had never at one time—not even when the patients of other hospitals near had been carried to it, while they were being repaired—had more than 150 in it. The regular average was considerably under 100; he believed about 70. He did not know where the blame lay, but it appeared to him the sums laid out upon that building, were much greater than the advantages to be expected from it; and for 807 those actually derived from it, he thought the public paid ten to one more than they ought, and that the expense of the officer's house might have secured the whole of the benefits obtained from this expensive establishment to the navy.
§ Mr. Crokerexplained. He said the situation of paymaster of widows pensions was first regulated under a charter of George the 2nd. A great deal of trouble was involved in the duties annexed to it; for the parties were paid quarterly, and in their several places of residence. An alteration had lately been made in this office, and the present remuneration was agreed upon, in lieu of the emolument arising to the paymaster from the use of the public money which he occasionally held, and which left him a greater profit than his present income. The sum in the estimates was paid to the Astronomer-royal for a nautical almanack, and formed but a small part of his emoluments. The hospital at Yarmouth, if not much used now, before the expedition to Copenhagen, while the Dutch fleet was strong, and. France had a formidable naval establishment at Antwerp, at that time as the eyes of Great Britain were anxiously fixed on the north, was likely to be of great importance. Had that state of things continued, it was likely that hospital would have caused a great saving not merely of money but of human life; and any expense in forming this establishment was well incurred, to avoid having recourse to those wretched places formerly in use,—he meant the temporary hospitals.
Mr. Gordonwould wish to know whether there was any diminution in the expenses of the inspection of telegraphs? There were twenty clerks employed in time of war, and surely so many, could not be necessary in time of peace.
Mr. Bennetwished to know what was done to compensate captain Usher, or whether there was any measure in progress to do him justice.
§ Sir Charles Polesaid, that captain Usher was an officer of the highest merit, and that his services and his wounds deserved from his country the greatest attention.
§ Mr. W. Smithtook notice of the sum of 602l. paid to captain King, for carrying marshal Blucher, &c. &c. from Dover to Calais. He had heard there was a mode of average struck for the remuneration of 808 officers so employed, and that the office was sometimes a good one, and at other times the reverse. Now, upon inquiry, he found that the et ceteras in this case were no less personages than the duchess of Oldenburgh, the prince royal of Wirtemberg, prince Hardenberg, the Russian and Prussian ambassadors, generals Bulow, and Yorck, with their several suites.
Mr. Ponsonbyrose to do justice to the feelings of captain King, who would be the last man in the service to take money for a duty which he did not perform, or to make a demand which was not strictly and honourably correct. Now, the fact was, that instead of his having made one trip from Dover to Calais with those illustrious personages, he had made four or five, and was actually out of pocket several hundred pounds, over and above what he had been allowed for that duty.
§ Mr. Crokersaid, that the circumstance of the item having been annexed to the name of marshal Blucher alone, might have arisen from his name being first on the list in the warrant, and that it was thought unnecessary, to insert the whole.
Mr. E. Wardsaid, that as to the emoluments of the Astronomer-royal, they were derived from three, sources—from the Admiralty to the amount mentioned in the estimate, from the Ordnance the sum paid was 100l. with coals and candles, and the Royal Society paid about as much; so that, in all, the salary amounted to 7 or 800l. a year, together with Flamstead House.
§ Mr. Giddysaid, that the salary of the, Astronomer-royal had very properly been increased since the death of Dr. Maskelyne, who had a large private fortune; and he thought a still greater increase would be advisable. If the establishment at Flamstead-house was increased, so as to form in some sort a school of astronomy, the expense would be amply repaid by the beneficial influence of such a measure upon astronomical science, as far as it was applicable to naval purposes.
§ Mr. Whitbreadobserved, that the minuteness of the estimates was truly laudable, and was carried to such an extent that 4l. was inserted as the expense of catching rats—[A laugh]. He was not surprised at this item; but from the multitude of 'rats' in that department, he had expected to have found another item of 40k. for burying those which had been taken. But, passing over to larger matters, he wished to point the attention of the Secretary, of the Admiralty, to the notorious fact, 809 that the improvements which to a wonderful extent had been made in all the private concerns of the country, were so slow in finding their way into the public establishments, and especially the dock-yards. He particularly noticed the making of ropes, the improvement in which, he said, was known and practised every where outside of the dock-yards, but was not at all attended to within. It was a disgrace to this nation that improvements which were so generally known should not be adopted in the dock-yards, where they were perhaps more than in any other place necessary. The Admiralty were in full force on the opposite side of the House, and he trusted they would explain away this strange neglect. In the same place, and almost in the same spot, at Portsmouth, where Mr. Brunell's improvements were carrying on—improvements that, two or three centuries ago, would have had their ingenious authors hanged for witchcraft—trucks were to be seen in a public department that would disgrace one of those. American tribes whose boundaries were so lately the cause of contention. He trusted such imperfections would be answered to the public. He hoped the attention of the Admiralty would be turned to this subject, and that he might have the pleasure of witnessing the beneficial consequences of his suggestion.
§ Sir George Warrendersaid, that he could not avoid noticing the very pointed allusion of the hon. gentleman to him, in his observation on the item for killing rats. He should be always ready to meet the hon. gentleman, not only in that House, but on any other ground.
§ Mr. W. Smithrose to order. The hon. baronet must surely feel that he was wholly unjustified in making any personal allusion to his hon. friend, who was merely discharging a public duty, in the inquiries which he had made.
§ Mr. Whitbreadwas sorry his hon. friend had taken the trouble of explaining his conduct, as he did not think it wanted any explanation. He did not think anything the hon. baronet had said was disorderly, and would wish he had finished his observations. He did not see what relationship the killing of rats had to the hon. baronet. He was sure he had not intended any thing offensive to any gentleman in what he had said on the subject.
§ Sir G. Warrendersaid, that as the hon. gentleman had not intended any thing of- 810 fensive to him, he of course must be satisfied. He said, there would be no time lost in taking the improvements which the hon. gentleman had mentioned into consideration. The first lord of the Admiralty had made personal visits to the dock-yards for the sake of consulting the different officers on the propriety of alterations in the present system.
§ Mr. Whitbreadhoped they should see the fruits of those visits, though he was aware the greatest obstacle existed to the introduction of improvements, on account of the hostile disposition towards novelties on the part of the old stagers, if they might be called so, of the dock-yards. This opposition was remarkable in the case of the stone basin at Portsmouth, of which the advantage was now universally acknowledged. He was glad to find the hon. baronet restored to good-humour. He did not know there was any more connexion between him and rats, than between him and cats—[A laugh.]
Mr. Ponsonby, in a vein of pleasantry, observed, that he was not quite satisfied as to this affair of the rats; for in the same page in which 4l. was charged for the extirpation of these animals, he saw 2l. 2s. expended upon the keeping of cats. Now, if the latter charge were correct, the former was objectionable, for surely the cats ought to have destroyed the rats, without the additional expense incurred in the returns. Why, therefore, should it not to be explained?
§ Mr. Crokerreplied, that the cats were kept in a different yard from that occupied by the rats. But quitting that weighty consideration, and coming to one perhaps as important, he wished to defend the first lord of the Admiralty from any indisposition towards the introduction of machinery into the public works. Among the workmen it was first necessary to explode vulgar prejudices, before this improvement could be made sufficiently operative. This had, however, been in a great degree effected, particularly in the sawing branches of work. A basin was in progress at Sheerness, similar to that of Portsmouth, and two steam-engines were in forwardness. He hoped, in the course of next year, these would be more general, and when their effects were fully visible, that they would be introduced by degrees into the great yards.
Mr. Forbessuggested, that a great improvement in the manufacture of cables could be introduced. Though not adopt- 811 ed at the public yards, it was well known in the private ones. He himself, in India, had experienced its preference.
Admiral Hope did not approve the plan alluded to.
§ Mr. Whitbreadnoticed the great superiority of Huddart's cables, which he had heard naval men say they would sooner trust their lives to, than to the King's-yard cables.
Admiral Hopetestified his experience of the goodness of the King's cables. Manual labour might be diminished; but every new plan might not be executed so fast in the King's as in the merchants' yards.
§ Mr. Whitbreadsaid, that the advantage in the difference between a machine and manual labour was great. The machine was never drunk, never went off to visit a friend, never was idle when wanted, and always made the same thing in the same way. It was not exposed to the difference arising from various hands. Such was the advantage in Huddart's invention. The anchor forges in the dock-yards, he was convinced, might be improved, and that it might be found unnecessary for a man's hand to wield a hammer. Machinery might effect this, and every blow given would be the same, and money and human labour saved. In Sweden the hammer was worked by water. The steam-engine was applicable to all such purposes. Mr. Brunell or Mr. Maltby would be very able to do what was wanted as well as in the present system of the smitheries.
§ Sir Joseph Yorkeapproved of the mode in practice for making ropes.
§ Captain Pellewsaid, he had procured one of the other cables in China, which he found unserviceable.
§ Mr. Crokersaid, that as soon as they could be exempted from the liability to snap, which they possessed, he hoped they would generally be made use of in the navy.
§ Mr. Whitbreadasked, whether it was in contemplation to give the captains of men of war chronometers, which, he said, would be of great use in long voyages.
§ Sir J. Yorkesaid, that that subject was under the contemplation of the board of Admiralty.
§ The Resolution was then agreed to.
§ On the second Resolution, "That 355,000l. be granted to his Majesty for wages for the said 20,000 men, for ten 812 lunar months, commencing the 1st April 1815, at 1l. 15s. 6d. per man per month,
§ Mr. Whitbreadsaid, that as an increased number of seamen had been voted, it was a proper occasion to remark, that complaints had been made of the very inadequate manner in which the navy had been manned during the last American war. He hoped in future the Admiralty would proportion the number of ships to the number of good seamen they could procure, so that we might meet the Americans, if a war unfortunately broke out again with that people.
Admiral Hopesaid, it was impossible that we could man a navy of 70 or 80 sail as well as five or six frigates were manned by the Americans. If the number of our ships were as small, we could man them four times over equally well. Our ships had always been found to be better manned than the French, and as well manned as a large fleet could be. The hon. admiral expressed his confidence that the best seamen would be found to come forward with alacrity to serve their country, secured as they were of reward for their services from the liberal measures which had been adopted for that purpose, especially with regard to the institutions at Greenwich and Chatham.
Mr. Forbesalluded to the case of masters' mates and midshipmen, which he conceived to be one of extreme hardship, deserving the attention of the House; and observed, that he would, on some future occasion, notice it more particularly.
Admiral Hopestated, that it was the intention of the lords of the Admiralty to keep afloat all those young men who had served during the war, as far as it was possible; and for that purpose a double proportion of inferior officers was to be kept up. He pronounced a warm eulogium on the conduct of the British navy, during which the gallant admiral was loudly and repeatedly cheered.
§ Mr. Whitbreadwas glad that an opportunity had occurred for the gallant admiral's paying a tribute to the petty officers of the navy. Nothing could be more grateful to them, than to know that their services had been duly appreciated. He had heard, however, that there were instances in which ships had been sent to sea without their complements: and in one case, a gallant admiral had actually weighed his men, and sent up the account to the Admiralty, that they might know the state of his crew.
§ Mr. Crokerdid not deny but that at the latter period of the war many of the seamen were of a very inferior kind, but asserted positively that no ship ever was sent to a foreign station without having her complement of men.
§ Mr. Whitbreadsaid, that as the hon. Secretary had spoken with such confidence, he should refer to the officers from whom he had received his information upon this subject, and take occasion to state the result to the House.
Admiral Hope,in corroboration of what fell from the Secretary of the Admiralty, observed, that the standing order was, not to suffer any ship to leave the harbour without her due complement.
Mr. Forbesexpressed an apprehension that the claims of the midshipmen had not been sufficiently attended to, and therefore he should feel it his duty to bring the subject before the House.
§ Sir Joseph Yorkestated, that the Admiralty had done much for the meritorious class of officers alluded to by the hon. gentleman, but it had not yet done all that was intended. With regard however to what was urged on the score of length of service, merely as a claim to promotion, he had to observe, that several midshipmen had completed perhaps ten years of service in a French prison, without having seen two years previous service on board; and would any naval officer consider such persons qualified to perform the duties of a lieutenancy?
Lord Nugentsaid, he was informed that among our squadron oft the Scheldt in the course of the late war, two sail of the line wanted 130 men each of their full complement, and that the ship of commodore Owen was equally defective.
Mr. Roseexpressed a hope that the hon. gentleman would not persist in his motion with respect to the midshipmen, as the only effect of such a motion would be to render that deserving class discontented. He had no doubt that the claims of those officers, in whose favour he felt a lively interest, would be duly attended to. A great number of them indeed had already been promoted, and such as were not promoted were to be maintained afloat, so that at all events such meritorious persons should not be turned adrift.
§ Mr. R. Ward,to show the impartiality of the Admiralty Board, cited a case in which he had applied to the first lord in favour of a midshipman, who was a relation of his own; but his application was 814 refused on this ground, that others who had a prior claim from long service were not yet promoted.
§ Mr. Whitbreadobserved, that it had been much complained of, that while military officers in an enemy's prison were allowed the discount which, from difference of exchange, they were obliged to pay, the same allowance was refused to naval officers in the same situation. He could not conceive how such a distinction could be tolerated upon any principle of equity. He recollected that when a motion was brought forward by an hon. friend of his (Mr. Bennet), to place the officers of both departments on the same footing, when on foreign service, that motion was resisted upon this ground, that naval officers had opportunities of obtaining prize-money, from which military officers were excluded; but no such ground could apply, where neither were in actual service, when both were in a prison. He begged, therefore, to call the attention of the Admiralty to this subject, and trusted that the naval lords would take measures to have justice done to their brethren.
§ Mr. Crokersaid, he had the satisfaction to state, that the moment the case alluded to by the hon. gentleman was represented to the first lord of the Admiralty, measures were taken to place naval officers on the same footing with the officers of the army."
The Resolution was then agreed to. On the Resolution, "That 907,502l. be granted to his Majesty, for defraying half-pay, superannuations, allowances, and pensions to officers of his Majesty's Navy and Royal Marines, their widows and relatives, for the year 1815,"
Mr. Ponsonbytook occasion to panegyrise the justice and policy which dictated an advance of the half-pay of naval officers in 1806; observing, that he should have been better pleased if that advance had gone farther, and adding, that he should feel it his duty, on an early occasion, to make a proposition to the House upon this subject.
This Resolution, together with the remaining ones, were agreed to without opposition.