§ A Petition of several insolvent debtors was presented by sir Samuel Romilly, and read: setting forth, That the petitioners are prisoners for debt in his Majesty's prison of the Fleet, where most of them have been confined upwards of six months, and several nine, twelve, fifteen, and even eighteen months; and that an Act was passed in the last session of parliament for the relief of insolvent debtors in England; but, notwithstanding the said Act received the royal assent on the 10th day of July last, and a fit person might have been appointed commissioner under the same within a few days after, yet no such appointment was notified in the London Gazette till the 21st day of September last; when Arthur Palmer, esqserjeant at law, was appointed to be such commissioner; and that although seven weeks have elapsed since the said appointment, yet no person hath been discharged from confinement under the said Act, not withstanding provisions thereof, that a notice of twenty days only is required to be given to the creditors of the persons seeking the benefit of the same; and that the petitioners have long since taken the oath prescribed by the said Act, and have delivered in a schedule containing a full and true description of their debts, and of the property whereof they are possessed, and have petitioned the commissioner to appoint an early day for hearing the matter of their petitions; but not more than thirty orders have been made by him upon such petitions, and under those orders some of the petitioners are not to be brought before the commissioner till the 24th of December next; they apprehend that, according to the mode in which the commissioner is now proceeding, many of them will not have their petitions heard till February or March next, and even later; and that the petitioners, in consequence of their long confinement, are suffering the greatest privations and distress, many of them having families who are entirely dependent on their exertions, and who are at this moment in a state of absolute starvation and despondency; and praying that their serious distresses may be taken into the immediate 77 consideration of the House, and that they will please to adopt proceedings for their speedy liberation.
§ Sir S. Romillysaid, he felt it proper to present the Petition of these individuals, as soon as possible; but as it contained some imputations against a learned gentleman (Mr. Palmer), who was not a member of that House, and therefore had not an opportunity of defending himself, he thought that he should have acted wrong, if he had introduced the Petition before he had communicated its contents to that gentleman. He therefore delayed presenting it for 24 hours; and in the interim he stated to Mr. Palmer the allegations contained in the Petition.—Mr. Palmer observed, in answer, that as soon as he was appointed to the situation, he applied for a proper place in which he might hold his court. It was necessary that it should be in a public situation, where all creditors of persons claiming under the Act should have an opportunity of attending. Some difficulty arose in procuring a place of this description, but the Guildhall of Westminster was ultimately appointed for the purpose. He had then determined on hearing twenty petitions each day, till the whole were disposed of—the total number intending to claim being 1350. He fete it a duty incumbent on him to make this statement; at the same time he thought it was necessary to present the Petition, as it was of so much importance to a great number of debtors, both with relation to themselves and to their wives and families.
§ Mr. H. Addingtondid not rise to oppose the Petition. Those who had a right to expect any benefit under the Insolvent Act, might reasonably be supposed to feel much disappointment at its not having been carried into effect; and it was natural for them to think that the blame originated with the persons to whom its execution was confided:—A report had gone abroad, the source of which he could not imagine, that a noble relation of his (viscount Sidmouth), the secretary for the home department, had been the cause of the delay complained of. Now, in point of fact, no blame could be attached to that nobleman. When he said this, he by no means wished to shelter the conduct of his noble relative from enquiry; for he would undertake to prove and demonstrate to any gentleman, that every possible effort had been made by that noble lord in the execution of his official 78 duties, to carry into effect the provisions of the Insolvent Debtors' Act, as far as he was concerned. Every unprejudiced man must see the difficulties which were to be surmounted, before the Act could be rendered effective. Much difficulty was experienced in procuring a proper person to investigate the various cases that would arise; and certainly no unnecessary delay had taken place in selecting the individual. Considerable difficulty was also encountered, in providing a situation where he could conveniently discharge his duties. The learned gentleman (sir S. Romilly), he was sure, did not mean to impute the blame of any delay in carrying the measure into effect, to his noble relative, or to the learned serjeant on whom the appointment of judge had been conferred; but still he thought it necessary to make these few observations, in consequence of certain assertions contained in the petition.
§ Alderman C. Smithexpressed a hope that no time would be lost in extending the benefit of the Act to those for whom it was intended. If only twenty cases were heard per diem, the object of the legislature would not be effected for a great length of time. Newgate was at present full of debtors, anxiously waiting for their deliverance; and they thought it extremely hard, that no proceeding had yet taken place under the Act. Much of the delay might, perhaps, have been avoided, if a salary for the judge had been mentioned in the Bill.
§ Mr. H. Addingtonwished to put the worthy alderman right on the point to which he had last adverted The circumstance of no salary having been inserted in the Act, had not occasioned any delay. When it came to the knowledge of the Secretary of State for the home department, he immediately stated the fact to the noble lord at the head of the Treasury, and the latter took upon himself the responsibility of paying an adequate salary; as he entertained no doubt that parliament would ultimately sanction his conduct.
§ Mr. Kenricksaid, when the Insolvent Debtors' Bill was before the House, he had distinctly stated, that, until the operation of the Bill was known, and the duty which was likely to devolve on the individual appointed to administer its provisions was fairly understood, it was utterly impossible to estimate the just amount of the salary to be granted. He had also 79 stated at the time, that it was intended, at a future period, to make an alteration in the rules of the King's-bench and Fleet, where many persons at present lived in luxury on the property of their creditors, whom they set at defiance.
§ Sir Samuel Romillywas very glad that the learned gentleman had made the statement which he had just heard, as it did away a gross mistake into which many persons had fallen. It was said, that the Bill had passed through that House, without any salary being annexed to the situation of judge, and that this circumstance was not observed at the time. Now this was not the fact. No neglect could be attributed to the House. Gentlemen were perfectly aware, that no salary was mentioned. They felt, that, as the duties of the office were quite uncertain, it was not possible to fix the salary at that moment. It appeared to them, that the same system might be pursued, which had been before acted upon in other cases; for instance, in the appointment of commissioners—that the question of remuneration should not be previously settled, but should be left for decision after the duties of the office were ascertained. They were of opinion, that the best thing they could do was, to leave the Bill in all respects as it was introduced into the other House, where, they supposed, it had received the tacit approbation of all the great law authorities.
§ Mr. Kenricksaid, he felt very great satisfaction in seeing that Mr. Serjeant Palmer (one of his oldest professional friends, than whom a more honourable or a more learned man was not to be found in Westminster-hall) was by the fair and candid statement of the learned gentleman (sir S. Romilly) absolved from blame. After the observations made by that learned gentleman, he would only say, that the consideration of fixing a salary for Mr. Serjeant Palmer had not delayed the measure a single hour.
The Chancellor of the Exchequersaid, that no delay whatever had been occasioned, in consequence of the non-insertion of the amount of the judge's salary in the Insolvent Act. When an application on that subject was made, he was directed to recommend to the crown, that such a salary should be forthwith ordered, as the nature of the duties attached to the office might appear to demand.
§ The Petition was then brought up, read, and ordered to lie on the table.