ORDNANCE ESTIMATES. (Hansard, 9 March 1812)

§ Mr. Robert Ward
rose for the purpose of moving the Ordnance Estimates for the present year. As the whole sum amounted to no less than nearly four millions and a half, he trusted he should be excused if be stated shortly the principles on which the board had made up the accounts. They were as follow: I. To afford every information to the committee consistent with the convenience of the service. 2. To simplify the whole estimate by distinguishing, under the separate beads, all the different parts. 3. To confine the demands upon parliament to the expences merely of the current year, as would be seen by the Engineers' Estimate, in which a diminution of 73,000l. was apparent. 4. To make the payments so to square with the estimate, as to reduce as much as possible the head "unprovided," which had been lessened to the extent of 232,000l. 5. To arrange all the items under their respective heads. 6. To bring before the House all the actual payments necessary for this department, although they might have been delayed on account 1235 of the ordinary service of the British empire. The hon. member then proceeded to notice the various divisions. The first was "Masters-general and principal officers," amounting to 42,486l. The diminution was 405l. arising from the abolition of the sinecure offices of two clerks in the lieutenant-general's department. The succeeding head of "Civil officers," remained the same as during the last year. The sum for "Furniture for Barracks" had been encreased 6,000l. but in the subsequent years it would be liable to a greater diminution. An excess of 51,000l. would be noticed, under the title "Pay of Regiments of Artillery." The larger part of this sum was required for rations of provisions, formerly included in the commissariat department, but now transferred to that of the Ordnance. The remaining 12,000l. was for the increased pay to various regiments, entitled to it under Mr. Windham's Bill. The same explanation would account for the excess under the head "Military Corps." The division of military establishments was augmented 4,666l. the major part of which had been deducted from the contingencies, in consequence of the inspector-general of hospitals having ordered that the supernumeraries should be placed on the regular establishment. The remainder, being a sum of 800l. was occasioned by a new appointment of deputy inspector of hospitals. The remaining divisions were nearly the tame as last year; the largest difference being only 15l. to the professors of the academy at Woolwich. He was concerned to state that the excess of the "mount of the ordinary estimates was nearly 88,000l. but, allowing for a diminution for rations of provisions, it would be found to be only about 20,000l.—He would now advert to the Extraordinary Estimates, the excess upon which was 373,460l. This increase arose partly from government having deemed it right to make the island of Malta a depot for stores, which were sent there to the value of 130,000l. In Jersey, 45,000l. had been expended in erecting permanent works previously directed by parliament to be built, and the completion of which would require 30,000l. Under the head of Cinque Ports, the sum of 12,510l. was inserted for Dover only, which was proposed to be voted to make good the contracts of government for materials for erecting works which would have cost "bout 24,000l. but which the inspector 1236 general had thought not at present necessary. At Chatham 2,000l. had been laid out in labour, and 13,000l. on works which it was requisite should this year be finished, and for which 7,600l. more would be requisite. Woolwich had always formed a considerable item:—31,000l. was charged for gun carriages, stores, and for building and fitting up a saw mill, under gen. Cuppings, the expence of which was about 4,000l. and the annual profit 4,284l. Under the title of "Defences of the Country," several weighty sums were included; the charge amounted to 87,000l. and the towers and batteries built on the coast, had cost 57,324l. being only a continuation of a principle long ago adopted by the House, and much less than the original estimate. On enquiry, he found that the sum of 30,000l. would be amply sufficient to complete them on all points where they were necessary.—For foreign service, the estimate was 360,000l.; of this, 170,000l. was for the army in Sicily, and 190,000l. for the army in Portugal. There were 360,000l. for the brass and iron ordnance. In the provision of ammunition for regiments, there was a diminution of 160,000l. and in the unprovided estimates a diminution of 213,000l. In the estimates for Ireland there was a small excess above the estimates of last year, of about 1,800l. In the civil and military superannuations, there was an excess, above the preceding year, of 18,000l. There was, therefore, in the whole of the estimates, a nominal excess of 268,000l. but this was merely nominal, for there had been, in reality, a real saving since last year. In the article of salt-petre alone, there was a saving of 100,000l. in the estimate, as it now stood; for, during the last three years, the sum of 600,000l. had been voted for that article, being at the rate of 200,000l. per annum. Not that so large a supply was needful, but because it was thought requisite to have it as a store. The present Board of Ordnance, however, did not consider that store as necessary, and therefore take only our annual grant of 100,000l.—In concluding, the hon. gentleman adverted to the Reports of the Commission of Military Inquiry, many of the suggestions contained in which, it was the intention of the Board of Ordnance to adopt, for they seemed to be framed upon the best principles, and with the greatest justice. Among others, what they reported with respect to contracts met with their concurrence, and it was their determination to raise every 1237 supply by open competition. No military paymaster, also, was to ask for a sum, however minute, without stating the exact balance in his hands.—The question was then put, That 3,873,000l. be granted for the land service, when

General Tarteton
spoke at length on the impolicy of ministers in not fixing a large depot in the centre of the country (as he had advised five years ago), capable of containing equipments of every kind for 200,000 men. In the Scheldt and the Texel, Buonaparte had thirty sail of the line and men to man them, and if he should be able, by any means, to land 10, 15, or 20,000 men in England, we had no means of expelling them from the country, though the expence of our army would this year cost us near 59,000,000l. If ministers did not seriously turn their thoughts to this subject, they must turn their backs upon the safety and security of the kingdom.

§ Mr. Ward
said, that the depot at Weedon Beck did contain equipments of every kind for 200,000 men, which he hoped would sufficiently console the gallant general.

§ General Tarleton
said, that Weedon Beck might contain pistols perhaps for so many men; but there ought to be at least 100 pieces of cannon also; and besides, Weedon Beck was too near the metropolis. He complained that all the horse artillery were on the coast.

§ Mr. Ward
said, that to console farther the hon. general, he would assure him, there were 140 pieces of cannon at Weedon Beck, that there was also a troop of horse artillery.

§ Mr. Fremantle
said there was an extraordinary increase in the present year in the expenditure of our West India Islands, without any apparent danger to account for it. He hoped to have a satisfactory explanation for the addition of 150,000l. to the estimate upon that head. As to Malta, the increase might be necessary, considering our relations with that part of the world; still, however, he could not help noticing the great excess of 130,000l. for stores conveyed to that island. As to Jersey, he was aware that a considerable threat was held out, or reported to be held out towards that island. He regretted to hear that 39,000l. more must be expended, before the fortification of the eastern coast could be completed, especially as the erection of towers and batteries was a system very much disputed. The excess 1238 under the head of foreign service was most alarming, being upwards of 400,000l. Part had been stated to be employed in secret service, but though he allowed there was a propriety in concealing such purposes, he was surprised that they were not told whether the stores sent out with such an object had arrived or not. With respect to the miscellaneous estimates, he should only refer to one head—that of forage for the draught horses, and supply for the artillery drivers, which was upwards of 5000l. more than in the last year. The expence of that corps amounted to nearly four times the expence of a corps, of cavalry. On the whole, there was an excess in the extraordinaries of the year amounting to upwards of 374,000l.

§ Mr. Ward
thought it rather extraordinary, that after allowing the propriety of withholding information respecting secret service, his hon. friend should complain, that no mention was made of the destination of the stores, and whether they had arrived. The stores, he could state, were all gone, with the exception of about 50,000l. worth, which had not yet left the country, but would be applied to the same purpose with the rest. As to the expence arising from the extraordinary accumulation of stores abroad, his hon. friend would find that it principally occurred in Nova Scotia, Quebec, Bermudas, and other parts, the most exposed to America. In Newfoundland, the fortification of Signal Hill was already agreed to, which accounted for the increase in that part; and in Barbadoes it had been long in contemplation to erect a military and naval depot for the convenience of expeditions sent out from this country. The eastern district, it was true, would take more money before it was finished, but he was surprised to hear it brought as a charge, that, contrary to the former custom so much blamed in that House, they had brought forward an estimate of the whole expence instead of misleading the public. The artillery corps consisted of nearly 6000 men and 6000 horses; it would account for the expence, which was represented as so extraordinary, to reflect, that it consisted of thirty-three brigades. As a great part of the objections went to arraign the policy of the country, and as in the present instance the government acted but ministerially, he should leave the answers to other opportunities, this not being the occasion for general discussions of that kind.