KING'S HOUSEHOLD BILL. (Hansard, 20 January 1812)

§ Mr. Tierney

observed, that from an examination of the estimate laid before the House, of the annual charge upon the Civil List revenues, framed in 1804, and the accounts of the disbursements for the seven following years, certain productions appeared to him to be necessary, before he could consent to give his vote for the second reading of this bill. It was impossible to understand from the papers which had been already produced, what arrangement it was necessary to make, or whether the sums which they should grant might exceed or fall short of what the occasion demanded. From these papers it appeared that the expenditure of the Civil List exceeded the revenue by upwards of. 124,000l. annually; so that it was not fair to state the Civil List at 223 979,000l. per year, when the real sum expended was greater by 124,000l. Whether this additional expence was really necessary, it was impossible to say, without the production of more documents; for all that could be learned from those already produced, was the actual excess, and the particular classes on which that excess had arisen. But this was not enough to enable the House to act in the manner which they were called on to do, because it did not allow them to see whether the excess was justifiable, or could admit of reduction; and he should wish to have a Committee appointed for the purpose of inquiring into the actual state of the Civil List. This was certainly the first time that an addition had been demanded to the Civil List, without the appointment of a Committee to inquire into the subject, and without the production of more papers than had been thought fit to be laid before them on the present occasion; but whether the course he recommended was or was not justified by precedent, he was certain that it was at all events the most rational and convenient. In what he was about to move for, he professed he was actuated by no wish to embarrass or retard ministers in carrying this business through the House; but before the second reading of the bill took place, he could wish that the few papers he intended to move for before sitting down, should be some time before the House, that they might come to the discussion with every requisite information. To satisfy the House that these additional papers were necessary materials for the consideration of the present question, it was only necessary to state to them that an estimate of the charges on the Civil List was drawn up in 1804, that from 1804 downwards, the expenditure of each year greatly exceeded the sum of that estimate; and that it was almost impossible that a more mature arrangement could take place than that of the Civil List in 1804. He should proceed therefore to state to the House the principal articles on which he wished to have information. The first was an account of the bills paid each year in the department of the Lord Steward. In the estimate of 1804, 75,000l. annually had been thought sufficient to meet all these bills; and yet in the very next year, 1805, they would find that they amounted to no less a sum than 129,924l. He did not say that this sum was too much, but he 224 certainly thought that it required explanation. In another year the expenditure in this department amounted to 107,000l. and in the last year it amounted to 115,424l. While he did not wish to express any opinion on this subject at present, he thought it was but fair to state that reports had gone abroad of considerable abuses existing in that department, and that these reports had come from a quarter which induced him to view the vast increase that had taken place with great jealousy. He implored the House, therefore, not to proceed farther in this business till they had examined, into the particulars of this expenditure. It was certainly singular enough, that the excess took place at the very moment when Mr. Pitt said that 75,000l. would be sufficient. He hoped that the right hon. the Chancellor of the Exchequer, would not object to the giving this detailed account.

The next account he wished for was, that of the tradesmens' bills in the department of the Lord Chamberlain. The extraordinary way in which affairs had been conducted in that department, would sufficiently appear when the particulars of this department of the Civil List were laid before the House. He would again implore the House to examine into this subject, to look into Mr. Pitt's estimate and the estimates of all preceding administrations. Mr. Pitt conceived that 65,000l. would be amply sufficient for. the payment of all the tradesmens' bills in this department on the 5th of July 1804, and yet it appeared that the increase, here was even greater than in that of the Lord Steward; for on the 5th of July 1805, this estimated sum was more than doubled, the bills at that time being to no less an amount than 133,800l. In the next year the expenditure got up to 136,009l. in another year it was 124,000l. and then it fell to 95,000l. On the face of the documents now before the House, there was nothing to satisfy them respecting the cause of this rise and fall. In' 1809 it rose to 149,618l. and fell in the following to 118,091l. and in a subsequent year to 101,669/. In all this there was certainly an appearance of great imprudence. He did not conceive that the Lord Chamberlain was a person who had merely the direction of that department, without being obliged to look into its details, and to see that the expence should arise properly from the articles falling 1806, 225 under it. He understood that the sums paid out here were principally for bills connected with furniture, a species of expence which might be increased without end. The House were surely bound to satisfy themselves on so important a subject as this, in order, if the expences were unwarrantable, that they might not occur again, and that, in making a permanent arrangement, they might not be considered as likely so to recur. In any motion which it was possible for him to make on this subject, he should find it difficult so to express himself as to be able to fall upon, precisely what was wanted for the elucidation of the business, without the assistance of the right hon. gent. who, seeing the intended object, would be much better enabled to judge than he could be supposed to do, what would exactly answer the purpose.

With respect to the department of the Master of the Horse, the management of which he understood was conducted by one of the Equerries, he would say nothing at present, as it appeared to him to be most economically managed, and every thing that it ought to be.—The next article on which he could wish for explanation, was one as to which, he was afraid the right hon. gent, would not be prepared to satisfy him, he meant the Special Service and Royal Bounty. In 1804, the estimate for these expences was 10,000l. The next year the expenditure was 14,000l.; and the year after it got up to 50,111l. Now, what the cause of this could be, he was at a loss to guess; and if the right hon. gent, opposite had no objection, he would move for papers illustrative of this circumstance.

The only other article on which he should wish for information, was that of the Extraordinary Disbursements for Foreign Ambassadors, Presents to them, &c. The whole of the ordinary expence of Foreign Ambassadors in 1804, was 112,330l.; but this branch of expenditure had been continually diminishing since that period. In 1803 it amounted to 59,835l.; in 1810 to 67,482l.; and it now stood at 77,064l. and this reduction was occasioned by the diminished number of Ambassadors, arising from the particular situation of the continent for some time past. But what was certainly singular enough, was, that while the number of Ambassadors was so much reduced, the Extraordinary Disbursements, which in 1804 were estimated at 10,000l. should 226 have risen to 50,111l. afterwards to 83,813l. and now actually stood at 53,832l. How was this to be accounted for? This sum could not certainly be Secret Service money; for there was a large sum voted by parliament every year for that purpose. The presents to Foreign Ministers, which were also estimated at 10,000l. in 1804, amounted now to 33,750l. Surely it was necessary this should also be explained.—Again, he would say that all these very extraordinary differences between the estimate and the actual expenditure of the Civil List might be accounted for satisfactorily; but when the statement which he had just made should go out to the world, he was confident that the country would not be satisfied unless every information which it was in the power of the right hon. gentleman to give should accompany it. He should therefore move, "That there be laid before this House, 1. An Account shewing the amount of the charges upon the Civil List-Revenues, so far as relates to the Bills of Tradesmen in the department of the Lord Steward, specifying the different heads of expence under which the same have been paid, from the 5th of July 1804 to the 5th of July 1811; distinguishing each year. 2. An Account shewing the amount of charges upon the Civil List Revenues, so far as relates to payments made to Foreign Ministers, under the heads of Extraordinary Disbursements, Presents and Equipage money, from the 5th of July 1804 to the 5th of July 1811; distinguishing each year, and the names of the Foreign Ministers to whom the said payments have been made. 3. An Account shewing the amount of charges upon the Civil List Revenues, so far as relates to the bills of Tradesmen in the Department of the Lord Chamberlain, specifying the different heads of expence under which the same have been paid, and also the particular service to which applicable, where the amount has exceeded 500l.; distinguishing each year, from the 5th of July 1804 to the 5th of July 1811."