TRADE LICENCES. (Hansard, 18 February 1812)

§ Mr. A. Baring
, in pursuance of his notice, rose to move for several papers on the subject of the trade carried on by means of Licences, preparatory to the important discussion on the subject of the Orders in Council, which was soon to be brought before the House. He observed, that whatever opinions might be entertained by the cabinet, or by the Board of Trade, he would venture to assert that there was no member of the House at all connected with commercial affairs, who would defend the licensed trade as it was now, and as it had been for some time carried on. When the immense increase of influence it afforded to the crown, and the state of subserviency to the minister to which it reduced the mercantile interests of the country, were taken into 843 consideration, he thought the House would at least pause before it refused the documents for which he was about to move, previous to entering upon the general inquiry. He did not now wish to anticipate any thing that would be stated on a subsequent and more proper occasion, and should do little more than move for the papers which were the object of his application. The first was the copy of any memorials presented to his Majesty's government from the merchants of Heligoland, complaining of the mode of granting licences for their trade, which he wished to be produced, in order to shew that even those individuals who were most benefited by the present system, were dissatisfied with the manner in which it was conducted.—It had also been his intention to move for a similar document from the merchants of Malta, but thinking that it might be fairly urged that its production would be detrimental to their commerce in future, he refrained from so doing. No such objection could be urged to the Memorials from Heligoland, as all trade there had ceased for the last eighteen months, although it might be extremely convenient for hon. gentlemen on the other side of the House to adopt such an excuse as a reason for refusing papers on which an accusation against them was proposed to be founded. The other document that he was desirous should be laid upon the table, was a return of any spirits imported from any of the ports of Holland since the 1st of October last, with copies of the licences in which such importations have been made. His motive for moving for these papers was, that he was informed that two cargoes of spirits had been introduced into this country under licence, at a time when such permission was generally refused. One of these cargoes had been sold, and the owner had derived an immense profit from it, but the other, owing to some informality, unconnected with the present question, had been seized and confiscated. It was not his design, should his motion be acceded to, to bring any particular cases before parliament, or to impute any intentional mal-practice to the Board of Trade, but merely to shew that the system of Licences was liable to abuses of this description. He did not mean to say that corruption existed any where, but it was not fit that such a temptation to it should be allowed. He concluded by moving that the papers he had referred to should be laid before the House.

Mr. Rose
said, that the hon. member could not be more anxious than he and his colleagues of the Board of Trade were, that the general question of Licences should be discussed in some intelligible and tangible shape as soon as possible, and he trusted the hon. gentleman who bad given a notice on the subject, would bring it forward without delay. With regard to the first paper moved for, the Memorial from Heligoland, he thought the publication of it would be attended with very serious inconvenience, and notwithstanding what had been said, he felt it to be his indispensible duty to resist it. Whether it were true or not, that no trade had been carried on there for the last eighteen months, he did not know, but the production of this document would expose to the enemy the means which had been formerly resorted to, and might prevent any intercourse between that island and the continent in future. As to the other documents moved for, he had not the slightest objection to the whole world being made acquainted with their contents. He, however, wished to say a few words in explanation of what was an irregularity regarding them. It was undoubtedly correct, that at the time these two licences for the introduction of spirits from Holland were made out, the general importation was prohibited by the Board of Trade, and they wholly originated in a mistake of the clerk, who, in making out about nine or ten thousand licences, had improperly inserted the words which allowed the admission of spirits, but the persons who obtained them had derived no advantage from this inadvertence. One of the cargoes, as had been stated, had since been seized and forfeited, as it appeared that fraud had been practised, the ship not having in reality come from the port for which the licence was prepared. In the other case (for only two existed), the person on whose account the spirits were imported had been compelled not to enter them for exportation, and was not allowed to dispose of them for home consumption, by which he had sustained a loss of 4,000l. Under these circumstances, it would, indeed, be a wide stretch of the imagination to point out in these two transactions any thing which could afford a colour for thinking that the Board of Trade had acted with a view to favour the individuals concerned. The hon. gentleman had said, that there was not a merchant who did not complain of the system of licencing. So 845 general an assertion he was by no means prepared to meet; but whenever the subject was regularly brought under consideration, he should be ready to argue, what, in his opinion, was a very strong case. He trusted that the hon. member would not press his first motion.

§ Mr. A. Baring
felt no inclination to accede to the last request of the right hon. gentleman, since he could foresee no possible inconvenience which would result from the production of the Memorial from Heligoland, seeing that the trade of that island was completely terminated. It would be admitted that it was couched in very strong terms of remonstrance, and be thought that the right hon. gentleman would much more unequivocally shew his disposition to meet the pending inquiry, if he allowed papers to be produced which were necessary to its due consideration. With regard to his second motion, it was certainly true that the Board of Trade, when they discovered that an irregularity (not to give it a term more severe) had been committed by their servant, did every thing in their power to injure the individuals who had, for any thing that appeared, innocently obtained the licences, but this was by no means pursuing the course that should have been followed. The right hon. gentleman had asserted, that in the last instance the owner of the cargo had sustained a loss of 4,000l. But his information was far different, since he learnt on good authority, that sufficient profit had been obtained on the last cargo, more than to make up for the confiscation of the former. There indisputably was room for a great deal of fraud, and it would be well worth his, or any other merchant's while, to purchase licences for the importation of spirits at an expence of 15,000l.

Mr. Marryatt
did not believe that any mal-practices could be charged against any of the clerks of the Board of Trade, but the whole system of licensing was most injurious to the trade of the country. In order to substantiate this assertion, papers might, indeed, be useful, but they were not at all necessary, since the general facts were known to all, and the consequences felt by all. The forgery, perjury, and bribery on which our commerce now depended were admitted by nearly every person interested in commercial transactions, and the confiscation of our shipping provided with licences in various situations, to an enormous amount, had been 846 the ruin of some of the most wealthy merchants in the city of London, besides filling the coffers of the enemy with the produce of the sale of their cargoes. He thought the production of the Memorial from Heligoland might be injurious, but before he gave his vote against it he begged to observe, that he entirely disapproved of the whole system of licensing.

§ Mr. Brougham
felt that it was impossible to consider separately the important subjects of the Orders in Council and the system of licensing, and would therefore take the opportunity of fixing that day fortnight, for his motion on these two questions. He begged the House in the mean time to bear in its recollection one fact which had been disclosed in the course of the present discussion, namely, that the crown, by means of this traffic in licences, arising out of and connected with its traffic in Orders in Council and commercial prohibitions, was possessed of the power of employing for the augmentation of its influence ad libitum, these pieces of paper called licences, to any extent, and the value of that power might be easily estimated, when his hon. friend, perhaps the first merchant in the kingdom, had said he would not hesitate to give for one of them the enormous sum of 15,000l.

The Chancellor of the Exchequer
remarked that the fact, which had been just stated to be of such importance, must occur in every case where it was thought necessary to carry on trade with a nation with whom we were at war, and, therefore, whether it were more or less connected with the Orders in Council, it was clear that such an advantage as that noticed, might, at any time, under such circumstances, be derived. It was not insinuated that the Board of Trade in a single instance had been actuated by an improper motive to favour particular individuals, and in this instance the licences in question were less open to any animadversion upon such a striking fact than they would have been at any other period. With respect to the question before the House, it would be remarked, that the hon. gentleman who introduced it brought it forward as if the whole trade of the country was, and could only be, conducted by means of licences. From what he (the Chancellor of the Exchequer) knew of the proceedings of the Board of Trade from daily communications, he could assert, that there was hot a single instance of a licence being granted for a trade which could be carried on 847 without it; and thus the whole question which the hon. and learned gentleman in his threatened motion, would have to discuss, would be this, whether, under the circumstances, involved as we were in war with a large portion of the world, it was or was not desirable that any trade should be carried on with such countries as were under the dominion of an enemy? If, indeed, the whole benefit resulting from commerce was to be put into the hands of foreigners, as some gentlemen seemed to wish, the licensing system should be discontinued; but as long as any man was willing that our own merchants should derive their share, it ought to be persisted in. Notwithstanding, therefore, the authority of the greatest merchant in the kingdom, or perhaps in the world, the House would observe that they had been much misled, since the only principle on which government acted was to secure to the natives of England that trade by means of licences, the profits of which without them would devolve to the hands of aliens. When he said that the Board of Trade had granted no licences to countries where intercourse could be maintained without them, he ought to have made some qualifications, since he did not mean to pledge himself as to a particular voyage, nor did he mean to say that licences had not been granted for countries where it was a matter of doubt, whether the commerce could or could not be conducted without their protection, but, generally speaking, they had only been conceded in cases where they were absolutely requisite. It was by no means true, that government endeavoured to keep all trade within their grasp; the contrary was the fact. No merchant in the country was more anxious than the Board of Trade to see the period arrive when all necessity for licences should be removed. He, therefore, in his turn begged the House, while they recollected the important fact stated by the last speaker, not to forget the satisfactory answer he had given to it.